Earlier this week, four Iranian operatives were charged in the attempted kidnapping of the U.S.-based Iranian exile Masih Alinejad, a human rights activist and journalist. Alinejad was kicked out of her native country nearly a decade ago for her anti-veiling advocacy. This week on the podcast, we’re joined by AJC Europe Managing Director Simone Rodan Benzaquen, who recently interviewed Alinejad about her activism and the harrowing experiences she faced in Iran. 

Then, Juan Dircie, Associate Director of AJC's Belfer Institute for Latino and Latin American Affairs, shares his personal reflections on the upcoming anniversary of the bombing at the AMIA Jewish Center in Buenos Aires, Argentina, and why we must never stop fighting for justice. 

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Lineup:

(0:40) Masih Alinejad, Simone Rodan Benzaquen

(16:47) Juan Dircie

(20:15) Manya Brachear Pashman

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Show Notes:

Win a guest spot on the podcast by filling out our Audience Survey!

“Le Sursaut : 3 Questions” featuring AJC Europe Managing Director Simone Rodan in conversation with Masih Alinejad

Four-year-old Abigail Mor Idan, the youngest U.S. citizen who was kidnapped and held by Hamas, returned home during a pause in fighting in November. But the whereabouts and well-being of 129 hostages are still unknown. 

Abigail’s great-aunt, Liz Hirsh Naftali, joins us to recount her family’s harrowing story – including the murder of Abigail’s parents – and her relentless effort to bring the remaining captives home to their loved ones.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Shay Avshalom Zavdi

• (1:32) Liz Hirsh Naftali

Show Notes:

Take action to bring all hostages home now.

To support our work today, you can visit AJC.org/donate. Or text AJC DONATE to 52886.

Listen – People of the Pod on the Israel-Hamas War:

• What Happens Next: AJC’s Avital Leibovich on the Hostage Deal and Challenges Ahead

• What Would You Do If Your Son Was Kidnapped by Hamas?

• The Good, the Bad, and the Death Threats: What It’s Like to Be a Jewish College Student Right Now

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Transcript of Interview with Liz Hirsh Naftali:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

One hundred twenty-nine hostages taken from Israel by Hamas during the October 7 attack are still unaccounted for. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said the effort to root out Hamas from Gaza will continue until every hostage returns home. 

With us to discuss how her family is carrying both tremendous loss and tremendous gratitude for the return of one of their youngest family members, is Liz Hirsh Naftali. Naftali’s great niece 4-year-old Abigail Mor Idan returned to her siblings on November 26. Hamas terrorists killed Abigail’s parents. 

Liz, who lives in New York, joins us from Israel where she has been spending time with her family and advocating for the release of the remaining hostages. Liz, welcome to People of the Pod. 

Liz Hirsh Naftali:

Hi, thank you for having me.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Your family members were living on a kibbutz a half mile from Gaza. How did you hear about their fate?

Liz Hirsh Naftali:

First, I have two nieces with families that lived on the kibbutz, and my sister in law and her husband. My sister Mara has lived on this kibbutz Kfar Aza for over 50 years. And they raised four children and two of the children stayed, my two nieces. So on October 7, I happened to arrive on October 6 to Israel because my daughter lives in Tel Aviv.

And I was coming to spend a week with her. And I was in my hotel early on the seventh when the sirens started, and we ran to the stairwell for shelter. And after like the second or third time very early in the morning, around 9, I started to hear there was something happening at the Gaza-Israel border. And so I called my sister in law who didn't answer and then I called another sister that lived on this kibbutz. And then I called another sister in law in Tel Aviv. 

And she said, the first thing she said was that my niece and her husband and their baby Abigail had been killed by Hamas terrorists. That was what I first learned. And basically, that's the news we had all day. And it came from the 6 and the 10 year old sister and brother, who were in the house when Hamas terrorists came in and murdered my niece. Then they went outside, and they’re with their father and he was holding Abigail, their three year old, and they went to run for safety. 

And Hamas terrorists shot and killed her husband, my nephew. The six and 10 year old thought that their little sister and the father both were killed. So they went back to their house, they locked themselves in a closet for 14 hours. And really, the news that we got that day was from a six and a 10 year old, who basically were locked in until they were rescued by soldiers and then brought to other family members that were on this same kibbutz. And so our news that day was incredibly terrible, which was that my niece, her husband, and their three year old, were all dead.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So how did you hear about what happened to Abigail, what actually happened to Abigail?

Liz Hirsh Naftali:

A few days later, we learned that actually, Abigail, as you refer to in the intro, had crawled out from underneath her father's body. She was covered in his blood. And she went to a neighbor that she knew.

Most of the kibbutz at this time was locked down. Everybody was in their safety rooms, but they let in Abigail, they heard her voice. And they took her with their three children. And what happened is the husband decided to go out to try to defend the kibbutz. The mother and her three children and Abigail stayed hidden in the safe room, and he was injured, so he did not come back. 

So what we learned a few days later was that an eyewitness on the kibbutz had actually seen this mother and her three children, Abigail, being marched off of the kibbutz by Hamas terrorists. So that was the last we learned. That was the only way we learned that Abigail survived. And we then for 50 days did not have any news about where Abigail or this woman and her three children were located.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

What can you tell us about Abigail? We're talking about her in the abstract. But what can you tell us about that adorable little girl? 

Liz Hirsh Naftali:

All these hostages are people. And I'm glad you said that because they are loved ones. And they are special people. And they have big characters, but we sometimes just put them down to how many numbers there are, or a picture on a screen. And so I'm wanting to say that it's very important that we actually talk about their characters because they could be our child, our grandmother, our sister, our father, our brother, or our son. 

Abigail turned four in captivity two days before she was released. She is this beautiful little girl who has lots of energy, big brown eyes, loves to play, loves to play with her big siblings. She is really smart. She is funny. She's just delightful. 

And so, you know, when we talk about the thought that she was for 50 days a hostage. It's just inconceivable that any child would be a hostage, let alone a three year old for 50 days who just became an orphan. I mean, the thought of that is just something that I still grapple with. I can't understand how it happened, how people can do that, or what the experience is like for this child.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

What have you learned about those 50 days about Abigail's time in captivity? I mean, has she been able to share anything about her experience, or have others who were with her?

Liz Hirsh Naftali:

You know, one of the things that we're very thoughtful of is, first, she is four years old. Second, there are still hostages. People are really very careful because one, they're asked not to speak a lot about the experience so that we don't get in the way of the future and hopefully very soon hostage release. But what I can tell you, which is, you know, common is that these hostages and Abigail herself are not fed properly. A three year old should be eating more than a piece of bread and some crackers and water. And that's what most hostages have come back and said they were eating. 

And the one thing that we held hope was that Abigail would stay with this mother and her three children. The youngest of this woman's three children was Abigail's classmate in nursery school, they knew each other. And you've just really wanted to believe that this mother was holding and hugging Abigail, and she was, and that was one of the things that we did learn afterwards. 

Other than that, we learned that they had moved around. And that they had been kept together because we've heard stories where hostage kids were separated from other kids and just terrible things. But in Abigail's case, she was with this mother and her three children. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Has there been a birthday party for Abigail since she returned? 

Liz Hirsh Naftali:

Yes, she had a birthday, I think every day for Abigail since she returned has been a birthday. I mean, think about a family that lost a mother, a father. And Smadar and her husband Ro'ee, were part of a big family, both in their personal families, but part of this big kibbutz family. And the two children lost their parents, the six and 10 year old, they also then found out their sister was alive, and they left her and they were in this closet.

And I think that for them, that every day was just waiting for their sister to join them. And that just that moment where they were all together, was the greatest celebration, celebrating that these three children had each other and have each other. 

And you know, one of the things people have asked is like, how was that reunion, and I wasn't at the hospital. But what I have heard, and which I think is just beautiful, is that when Abigail saw her brother and sister and her cousins come in, she lit up. You know, this was a child that was in the dark for 50 days, didn't have family. And when she saw them, just the light came back in. And they're very close. So when you ask about a birthday, I think every day is a celebration, and every day is appreciated. And in their case you know, every day is Abigail's birthday for this family.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

That's beautiful. You also mentioned that you were in Israel, on October 7, you had just arrived in Israel to see your daughter. How long did you stay? And how is your daughter? Did she get called up to fight because I know that she served in the IDF at one point. 

Liz Hirsh Naftali:

I arrived on October 6 in the evening, I went to Jerusalem with a friend, had dinner, went to shul, went back to my hotel in Tel Aviv. And I was supposed to have breakfast with my daughter, she had been away for the holiday with her boyfriend and his family. And I was really excited, I was gonna have breakfast with her and spend the week with her. In the end, I basically stayed in the hotel, we all were locked in where we were, and what I learned throughout the day from family, friends, and people, were like you need to get out of here. You'll be more helpful for us back in America. 

And so I basically got on a flight that Sunday, the next day on the eighth, and I came back to the States. And then I hit the ground running, one to tell the story of what happened on the seventh to our family, and what happened to this kibbutz, and what happened to Israel.

So I started trying to do as much sharing of what happened because it was so atrocious. And little by little as we learned that there were hostages, and Abigail was a hostage. Then I started to do the advocacy work. 

And my daughter, she did serve in the IDF. But her division and her area was not called in for miluim, for reserves. But what she did do was come and be with this family and be there for them during this really hard, hard time. You know, during which they buried my niece and her husband, so she was there for shiva, she was there to support them. A lot of her friends' husbands were called to miluim. So they came and stayed with my daughter. She helped them with their children. She just really put her heart out there, she and her boyfriend to really give support to each community and especially to our family that was in such a state of limbo and grieving and tragedy. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You know, as you were talking, I was thinking I guess everyone has been called up to fight in some way. Everyone has. You don’t have to be serving in the IDF.

Liz Hirsh Naftali:

If you look at what happened in Israel, one of the things that we see is that people came and they volunteered, people came and made sure that soldiers had what they needed, whether it was equipment or food in the beginning, because the country wasn't ready for that. They made sure that these families that were all of a sudden taken from being in their safe rooms for 30 hours, they needed to be taken somewhere, they had no clothes, they had no food, they had nothing. 

And you could just see the Israeli people rising to make this work. And these organizations that already were in existence, turning into aid and humanitarian organizations. And that is what is beautiful about Israel. And that is what is beautiful about these people: that in the darkness and in the greatest tragedy, many, many people really turned around and said, How can I help? What can I do to make people's lives better, and that is what is still happening. And I'm still seeing it here. And that's who the Israeli people are. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Let's talk about your fight, Liz, your advocacy to bring the hostages home. It’s reached across both aisles politically, you've been meeting with people both in as you said, Washington, DC, New York, Israel. Who have you been speaking with? And what kind of reception are you getting?

Liz Hirsh Naftali:

So when I learned that Abigail was a hostage, I got a picture of her. And I saw this picture and I put it on my mantel and I put it everywhere so I’d see it when I was in my apartment. And my daughter who was in Israel, she said, how can you look at that picture and just not be so sad. And I said, Oh, I'm sad. But when I look at that beautiful little girl, I am inspired to do everything I can to make sure that she comes home.

And basically put everything else aside that I could and just made it my focus, which was to, one bring back Abigail. But what I shortly learned was, there were about 250 other families whose loved ones were all their children, Abigail's age and younger. And as I've said, people's children, their sons, their daughters, aunts, uncles, grandparents, mothers, fathers. And what I started to learn was that these people were coming from Israel to New York or coming to DC. And many of them were survivors themselves, and they were coming to tell their stories. 

So one of the roles that I could play was to give them that love and support because I was in America, and I was already doing this work. And what you realize was you became this big family, you became a family that you never expected. And so what I continue to do is work with my family to make sure that their loved ones come back. 

The advocacy work took on a few different levels. At first, there was a few interviews, but most of the work was basically going to Capitol Hill and talking with elected leaders, both sides of the aisle. We worked with groups that were evangelicals, we worked with Jewish groups, we worked with AJC, we worked with, as I said, Christian groups, we worked with anybody that was willing to help us set up meetings that were part of their network. 

There was not one person on either side [of the aisle] that was partisan. Everybody understood then and understands now that getting back these hostages, these people, is our number one priority and that we are all committed to it. But what I will tell you is that early on, I went to this meeting, and it was a group of Republican senator women. And when they heard our stories, you could just feel their hearts were broken. These are mothers. These are women. And leaders. 

And Susan Collins, Senator Collins, she listened to my story of Abigail and she took Abigail's picture, she put it in her purse. And about a week later she was in Israel meeting with leaders. And my daughter, Noa, who was in Israel went to this meeting with my brother in law, because they were already from the Israeli side advocating for Abigail. And Noa, my daughter started to explain to her about Abigail and she said, I have Abigail's picture and she pulled it out from her purse. 

And then they did a press conference when they were leaving Israel and Senator Collins picked out Abigail's picture to show people what a child is like who has been kidnapped, and is a hostage of Hamas terrorists in Gaza. And one of the things that I learned from Senator Collins throughout this was that, that image, just like it was for me, that like marching like we're going to get this little girl and all 250 hostages, Senator Collins used this photo, and it was inspiring her. And I just love that story.

There's not a person I have met in an organization, on the hill or anywhere that does not understand this is an issue about humans, and that humans need to be brought home to their loved ones.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So speaking of the humanity of the hostage crisis, there have been a number of pro-Palestinian protests around the United States over Israel's response. Many unfortunately have veered into anti Israel sentiments and antisemitism. Some people have torn down the posters of the hostages that are in captivity. And this has become in many cases a political or partisan issue. How are you navigating that or coping with that handling of the situation?

Liz Hirsh Naftali:

My role from the day one was to get Abigail back and quickly became to get back 250 hostages. So I would literally go and I would bring a poster and hand it out to political leaders, their staff, organizers, just to make sure they understood and they saw the faces of 250 people who had been kidnapped. 

In addition, Abigail obviously was on that and I had to hand them a picture of Abigail to really put a human face to it. And to this day, I really believe the one lane that I want to stay in until they are all back is this lane of bringing back the hostages. 

And as a result of that is, my telling Abigail’s story, my telling that niece and nephew were murdered by Hamas terrorists in front of their children. My story of the other people whose stories that I have heard and heard about the most grotesque catastrophe, terrorism, abuse, I mean, it's just, it doesn't end. 

So for me, the story is what's so important. And I hope that through that story, we continue to keep the truth out there so that no matter, and I know what you've described, but no matter what the untruths are, or the convenient truths that people have done, or the historical revisionism they've done from two months ago, that those stories do not control the narrative, but the real stories of what happened to my niece and her husband, what happened to Abigail, and what happened to so many–and I say this–innocent people who are in their houses, in their neighborhoods, on the seventh, when Hamas terrorists broke a ceasefire, and came in and just murdered and savaged and raped and pillaged. 

I mean, the worst atrocities that one can imagine in modern times that we could even understand. So the other stuff, it's noise, but the focus for me and for so many of us hostage families, is saying, we need to bring back our loved ones. And telling that story makes it really clear what happened. And nobody can change those facts. 

Even if they tear down a poster, even if they say something else. Nobody can take away what really happened on October 7 in Israel, to innocent people from 30 nations, Israelis, Americans and 28 other nations, children, as young as nine, up till women and men in their 80s were kidnapped. And that doesn't even talk about the 1400 who were brutally murdered. And we don't need to go there today, but brutally murdered infants. I could cry thinking about the other atrocities that took place that day, young people at a music festival that could have been my children out there dancing in the morning to music. 

But again, I go back to how we get back these hostages, and telling our stories, whether it's the Nova music survivors, or the families from the kibbutzes or my family story. Those are the truths and the truths are what will control the narrative. Because people have a right to their own opinion. They just don't have a right to their own facts.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Can you speak to the support that Abigail, her siblings and others are receiving now that they have been returned?

Liz Hirsh Naftali:

There are so many people that are through professional areas going to be and have been working with survivors, both survivors of the atrocities, and those who were kidnapped and have returned. And so you see throughout the country, programs, doctors, places for people to go. And within their communities, there are social workers and specialists that are there to work with children and adults to give them what they need. 

But the thing that is hard to navigate is, there's not a rulebook for this, this isn't something that happened before. And that we can say, this is what we need to do. But what I can say is that the concern and the understanding, and the need for therapy, and the need for support is there. And that is something that is going to be developing and that these survivors are going to need for we don't know how long.

How do you know what a three, four year old, internalized and how long it takes for that to come out. We hope and pray that Abigail has just a beautiful, normal life. And that this family, and this is the beautiful part, is that her family here, our family here is going to do everything to bring in the proper support, proper care, and the love. One of the things that we talk about is how important it is to have family to give you the love, the hugs and and just to be there for you. And Abigail has that.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Why are you in Israel now?

Liz Hirsh Naftali:

I am in Israel to visit our family to just sit there and to look at this four year old and play memory game with hers watch her play with her siblings and just to take a moment to breathe and realize that while we worked really hard, so many of us for 50 days, and many of you out there who are listening and AJC worked really hard to make it possible that a child like Abigail could come back to her family. 

I thought it was important to come and have that moment. And to be here with my niece and my sister in law and all those that have, you know, lost sleep, none of us ate, none of us slept. And we were, you know, so far apart. But together in terms of what we were trying to do, which is to get Abigail back and to get these hostages back. 

And one of the other things that I did, is that I also went to the kibbutz to see what it looked like to see what their homes look like. So that I understood, when I speak to folks, when they talk about the destruction that took place in these people's homes, and the grenades that were thrown, and the homes that were burned and the bullet holes and just the destruction and hate that took place on the seventh. 

It wasn't something that I wanted to do, which was to go see this kibbutz. I needed to do it because I thought that to go and actually see what happened on this kibbutz, in my nieces home, in front of their house in other people's homes, was something to be able to understand so when I speak with people like yourselves, or people who might have a different vision of what happened on the seventh, that I can say from my own personal experience, what I saw, and what I saw was just terrible, and just devastating. But that is what happened on October 7, and we can't change that. But we have to be able to tell those stories so people understand what happened.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Was there a particular takeaway list from that tour and what you saw?

Liz Hirsh Naftali:

I just can't understand how people survived, endured what happened in their homes. You saw the safe rooms, you saw the bullet holes in the door where people were holding on from inside to keep themselves safe to keep their family safe. And you saw the bullet holes of Hamas terrorists that wanted to get into them. There were just so many bullets, so many, you could see remnants from the grenades, you could see the burned. And you just think to yourself, how could? How could society? How could life be like that? And you know that you can for a second separate from that it's your family that was murdered and your family that went through this. But just to look at this and think, How can humans behave like this? How could this happen? But it did. 

And the other is how these people survived, how they were just surviving that day. And, you know, a ten and a six year old survived in a closet, my other niece, and her husband with their three kids, they were locked in a safe room in their home. And they heard the terrorists. But at one point, early in the morning, they heard a woman's voice and they opened up their safe room and there was another kibbutz member, a woman carrying a baby and holding a hammer. And they let this woman into their safe room. And you think about, it still gives me the chills. 

And I saw their safe room and their safe room was there in their home. But they took a chance with an infant who could have cried, had no diapers, had no food. This mother, this woman, her husband had been killed. She had a hammer, which you just think to yourselves like, she was just this innocent woman. 

On this day of destruction and catastrophe and such darkness, such grotesque darkness, people were fighting for their lives, and people were doing beautiful things to try to help each other. How does that work? How does that balance work? And I guess that one of the hopes is we try to keep bringing the light to this terrible darkness. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Liz, Abigail has been reunited with the rest of her surviving family. Thank God.

When the world sees those precious pictures of your great niece, what are they looking at? What do you hope they see, and what’s the message you want them to take away from this conversation? 

Liz Hirsh Naftali:

Abigail is four years old. She is our hope. She is our resilience. She is our resistance. She is our peace. She is what we are all trying to do, which is to make this world a better place for our children and our grandchildren. But I do ask anyone who is listening to this to understand that Abigail is back and she is free, but whatever anyone can do to help support the release of these other hostages is really what is our call right now. And there's many different things to do. But please keep that as our focus.

The political stuff, many of us want to be in charge and we want to fix but we know we can't. But what we can do is keep these stories alive and keep pressure on our leaders to make sure that nobody says okay, Abigail and the kids are home. But there are women and men and still a few little children that need to come home. So that is my ask, that is my call to action, if anything, that we all partake in. And that's really why I'm here is to really share our story and Abigail's story but to ask you all to keep helping. Thank you.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

AJC certainly shares your mission of bringing all of the hostages home. To learn more about how to help make that a reality, listeners can go to AJC.org/BringThemHome.  Liz, thank you so much for joining us. 

If you missed last week’s episode, be sure to tune in for my conversation with AJC Director of Academic Affairs Dr. Sara Coodin, and AJC Director of Contemporary Jewish Life, Dr. Laura Shaw Frank about the fallout from a recent hearing on Capitol Hill about the current state of antisemitism on college campuses.

President Joe Biden has appointed Deborah Lipstadt, one of America’s preeminent Jewish historians and Holocaust scholars, to serve as the U.S. State Department’s special envoy to monitor and combat antisemitism. Listen to our conversation with Lipstadt, which is being re-aired for this special episode, about the troubling rise of contemporary antisemitism from multiple sources and what we can do to stop it.

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Episode Lineup:

(0:40) Deborah Lipstadt 

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Show Notes:

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As election day nears, Republican nominee and former President Donald Trump and Democratic nominee, Vice President Kamala Harris, are zeroing in on Pennsylvania, which has the largest Jewish community among the battleground states. Aaron Troodler, editor of the Philadelphia Jewish Exponent, breaks down what’s influencing Jewish voter sentiment in Pennsylvania, from economic and social issues to the U.S.-Israel relationship amid rising antisemitism and Israel’s defensive war against Iran-backed Hamas and Hezbollah. 

AJC is a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization. AJC neither supports nor opposes candidates for elective office. The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.

Listen – AJC Podcasts:

• The Forgotten Exodus: with Hen Mazzig, Einat Admony, and more.

• People of the Pod: 

• Sinwar Eliminated: What Does This Mean for the 101 Hostages Still Held by Hamas?

• From Doña Gracia to Deborah Lipstadt: What Iconic Jewish Women Can Teach Us Today

• The Nova Music Festival Survivor Saved by an 88-Year-Old Holocaust Survivor

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Transcript of Conversation with Aaron Troodler:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

It's the home stretch leading up to election day for the presidential campaigns of Republican nominee and former President Donald Trump and Democratic nominee, Vice President Kamala Harris. And both campaigns see Jewish voters in seven swing states as key to a potential victory. These seven swing states are swarming with canvassers, knocking on doors, handing out literature and engaging undecided voters in critical conversations. 

Joining us for a critical conversation about the Jewish vote in one of those swing states is Aaron Troodler, editor of The Philadelphia Exponent and The Washington Jewish Week. 

Aaron, welcome to People of the Pod.

Aaron Troodler:  

Thank you, Manya, it's a pleasure to be here.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Aaron, you live in the Philadelphia area and have your finger on the political pulse there. Everyone's talking about the impact of Pennsylvania's voters. What makes Pennsylvania so key? 

Aaron Troodler:  

So I think they're going to have a very significant influence. There are a lot of people saying these days that the path to the presidency runs through Pennsylvania, and I do think that there's a degree of truth to that. 

But in fact, I believe that the path to the presidency may very well run through the Jewish community, not just in Pennsylvania, but more specifically, in the greater Philadelphia area.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

How much of an influence are they going to have in this election?

Aaron Troodler:  

Ballpark, the Jewish population in Pennsylvania is estimated somewhere between 400,000, a little bit north of that figure. Of that 400,000 and change, it's estimated that approximately 300,000 or so are of voting age. And when you take into account that in 2020, Joe Biden beat then-President Donald Trump only by about 80,000 votes cast in Pennsylvania. 

And then, if you look back to 2016, Donald Trump won by only about 44,000 votes. We're talking about very slim margins here, and the outsized influence of the greater Jewish community is really going to shine through in this election.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Now, are you talking about Philadelphia city proper, or suburban Philadelphia? Is there a difference in how the two vote? 

Aaron Troodler:  

Great question, Manya, focusing primarily on suburban Pennsylvania. You have, for example, in 2019, the Jewish Federation of Greater Philadelphia–and I know this goes back five years, but it's the most recent data we have–did a population study, a community profile. And they looked at basically five counties, give or take, including Philadelphia County, which includes the city, but also 4 suburban counties: Bucks, Chester, Delaware, and Montgomery. 

And approximately at that point– again, dating back five years–but there are approximately 195,000 Jewish households at the time. And that number has grown over the past several years. I won't be able to really quantify it, because we don't have the actual data, but it's a significant number. 

And you know, when you take into account that Pennsylvania's Fourth Congressional District, which is represented by Madeleine Dean, it's mostly Montgomery County, which is suburban Philadelphia County. It's got the largest Jewish population in the state, in terms of congressional districts. It's very significant. 

And then the second largest is Pennsylvania's first congressional district, which is represented by Brian Fitzpatrick. And again, there are about 40,000 Jewish adults in that district. 54,000 or so, give or take, in the Montgomery County area. We're talking about big numbers. 

And I think what's happening now is just by virtue of where we are as a Jewish community, whether it be antisemitism, and being very cognizant of the frightening rise of antisemitism, whether it be on college campuses, city streets, social media platforms. People are very mindful of that, and rightfully so. 

And then when you throw into the equation the current situation involving Israel and the reverberations felt around the world just resulting from the Israel-Hamas war post-October 7, the Jewish community, I think, is mobilized now, perhaps even more than ever, to make their voices heard. And to do that, they would be going and voting and making their voices heard through their choices in the election.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You just mentioned the rise of antisemitism. What issues are guiding the Jewish vote? Because I know in years past, concerns about the economy have really steered the Jewish vote. Is that still true in the 2024 election?

Aaron Troodler:  

It's an interesting point you raise Manya, because I think historically, the Jewish community, and I'm over-generalizing by saying the Jewish community. Obviously, it’s comprised of several denominations who historically have had potentially different political leanings. But I think a lot of the domestic issues, whether it be the economy, reproductive rights, taxes, immigration, I mean, I think all these things are on people's radar screens. 

However, I think there is a particular emphasis now on Israel. I think that is front and center. I know historically in the Orthodox community, that has been the case. I think that has carried over to the conservative community, the reform community, other communities. And I think the survival of the Jewish state and the health and strength of the US-Israel relationship is paramount to Jewish voters. Not to the exclusion of the other issues that we're talking about on the domestic front. 

But I think people are viewing this election through a different lens, just by virtue of the circumstances that we're discussing, that our brethren in Israel are facing. And I think that is really informing people's votes, whether it be for Kamala Harris or Donald Trump. And that's a whole other conversation we could have, but I think that that really is front and center, maybe not the sole factor, but most certainly a primary factor. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So how does that translate? I mean, many believe that the Biden administration has been quite supportive of Israel. Others believe it has not been supportive enough.

Aaron Troodler:  

Right. Well, I think the answer depends on who you ask. I think there is a very strong case to be made that the Biden administration and Kamala Harris was obviously a pivotal part of that administration, has been supportive of Israel, and I think there's a lot of conversation that centers around President Biden's response and reaction to October 7, particularly in the immediate aftermath of the Hamas attacks, and how he handled it at that time. I think on the other side of the equation you have people pointing to Donald Trump's presidency and saying, Hey, he perhaps might be the best president that the Jewish community, slash Israel, has ever had, just by virtue of some of the things he did while he was in office. 

I think this is all leading to a very spirited debate, a very robust conversation about people who feel very passionate, you know, A or B. And I don't know that there's all that much consensus. I think people that are supportive of Kamala Harris are adamant and positive that she will be best for Israel. And conversely, people who are on the other side of the coin and feel that Donald Trump is their chosen candidate are making the same choice for Donald Trump. 

So I don't know that there's a particular answer to that question, but I do firmly believe that that has become a defining issue for the Jewish community. And it's just remarkable to me that people, perhaps I'm over generalizing, you know, 50% of the population is saying, you know, she is absolutely, unquestionably, the best friend that we've had and will have, and then you have the same people saying similar things about Donald Trump. 

So it's hard to quantify, but I do think that it has really, really become pervasive, meaning the notion of Israel and the central role that is playing this election, it's absolutely pivotal. And people are, I think, are really making their choices on who to support based on their assessment of those issues. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Just to clarify, you said the same people are saying that about Trump. You meant the same percentage of people, right?

Aaron Troddler:  

Correct, give or take. The Jewish Democratic Council of America (JDCA) has done a poll, and they found, you know, over 70% of the Jewish community is supporting Kamala Harris, as opposed to 20-25% for Donald Trump. You have polls, you have data from the Republican Jewish Coalition that shows that half the voters are supporting Donald Trump. These figures are bouncing around. I mean, obviously we've seen in the past polls definitely have value to them, but I think the real test, the real result, won't be really known until election day.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You mentioned denominational differences, but what about generational differences? Are younger Jewish voters leaning toward a particular candidate, or toward particular issues that are different than the ones that concern older voters?

Aaron Troodler:  

Great question. I'm personally not seeing it. I have young adult children, let's call them, who are invested in terms of who they're voting for. You have people that I encounter that are on the opposite end of the spectrum, perhaps in their golden years, who are very opinionated in terms of who they want to vote for. 

I think what's, you know, an interesting thing here, and again, it’s not really, I don't know if it's quantifiable by denomination. But I think another thing that is important to mention, Manya, is, you still have, I know we're only several days prior to election day. There's still a healthy amount of people that are, I think, truly undecided. I think a lot of people, particularly in the Jewish community, that I've spoken with and encountered, are really torn. 

In Pennsylvania we are getting an absolute barrage of campaign mail, TV ads, canvassers knocking on doors. There's a lot of that, particularly in the Philadelphia suburbs, and a good amount of those, again, I know they're targeting the Jewish community, focus on Israel and antisemitism. And you look at a piece of mail for one particular candidate, and it makes it sound like the other one is the devil.

And then flip the coin and it's the opposite for the other candidate. I think people are really trying to cut through the noise and get to the heart of the matter and make their own assessment. You can't really focus on the demographics in terms of age and whatnot. 

I think it's an across the board issue that people are focusing on. The people who are pro-Trump are pro-Trump, the people who are pro-Harris are pro-Harris, and then you have this whole sliver in the middle that I think are truly undecided. Even with the election looming large.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Is that just because they're getting conflicting messages, and they're just easily swayed one way or the other, and therefore they're torn, or are they waiting for something? Are they waiting for some deciding factor to reveal itself?

Aaron Troodler:  

I'm actually not sure if it's either. I don't know that they're waiting for something per se, because if they are, that quote, unquote thing may never come and they have to make a determination. I do feel that there are some in the Jewish community, and I think the Harris campaign has acknowledged this in events that they've had featuring the Second Gentleman Doug Emhoff, who obviously is Jewish, who would become the first Jewish first spouse. 

But there's been an acknowledgement by renowned and well known surrogates of the Harris campaign that there are some reservations in the Jewish community. They're not giving credence to those hesitations that people might have, in terms of Kamala Harris and her position on Israel, or what that might look like. They're just acknowledging that it's there, and they recognize that they have to speak to that issue. 

I think on the flip side of the coin, you have people who are looking at Donald Trump, and say, oh he moved the embassy to Jerusalem, and he recognized Israel's sovereignty over the Golan Heights, and he said that the settlements in the West Bank are not illegal, you know, per se under international law. And people are looking at those and they say, Wow, he did some great stuff. 

And then those same people may look at Donald Trump as a candidate and say, Is he the best person for our country? And that's a determination that they're trying to make, and I think are having a lot of trouble doing so just because of the different packed factors that are kind of pulling and tugging at them in different directions. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I want to go back to the Israel-Hamas war. What about that war are people thinking about when it comes to supporting a candidate? In other words, are they looking at the 101 hostages that are still in captivity, and what the candidates are saying, or how they're treating that situation? Or are they looking at humanitarian aid issues when it comes to Gaza? What are they looking at?

Aaron Troodler:  

Manya, I think they're looking at all of that, and I think that's all factoring into the equation and the decision making process. And this is where I believe the vice president might be at a little bit of a disadvantage, because she's a prominent member of the current administration, whereas Donald Trump is no longer the president at the moment.

And so they're looking at actions of the administration and parsing each move and each statement. And whether or not that moves the needle, I don't know. But I do think that she has a harder hurdle to overcome vis a vis those issues, because people are really looking at statements that she's made, whether it be about the humanitarian aid that you referred to reaching Gaza and the need for that to happen. People are looking to statements that the President, perhaps, has made relative to Israel and their response.

And on and off over the past year, there have been a number of times when, reportedly, the US has cautioned Israel or advised Israel not to proceed down a certain path. There's been talk about weapon shipments and delays and stuff of that nature. And I think all of those are issues that Kamala Harris has to contend with, just by virtue of association. 

And I think there's a lot of folks in the community saying, you know, what would a Harris presidency look like? You know, we know what a Trump presidency looks like vis a vis Israel. What would the Harris presidency look like? 

I will say, you know, the President, the Vice President, has seemingly been very supportive of Israel on the issue of antisemitism. Obviously, the National Strategy to Counter Antisemitism that was unveiled by this current administration was heralded by people as a very necessary move. And I know, obviously the Second Gentleman Doug Emhoff, was intimately involved in that as well. 

All those things, I think, are factoring into people's decision making process. It's a very complicated decision for many people. And I think that's really something that the Vice President is, I think trying to work through. How does she carve out her own path, and what does that path look like?

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

How influential is Pennsylvania's Jewish Governor Josh Shapiro in this race?

Aaron Troodler:  

So the saga of Josh Shapiro is obviously well known at this point. He's a governor who wears his Judaism on his sleeve, very proud of it. Will often quote passages relating to Jewish thought. He talks openly about his Shabbat observances and celebrations with his family. And obviously he was seemingly, reportedly, on the cusp of the vice presidency. 

I think what's interesting about Josh Shapiro, aside from his religion, is that he's universally well liked, let's call it. I think his appeal throughout Pennsylvania, it does transcend party lines in many places, just by virtue of his approach to government, his commitment to bipartisanship, and how he's been as a governor. I think there's a lot of appeal.

I think the fact that he's become a primary surrogate for the Harris campaign across the country, quite frankly, but more particularly in Pennsylvania. I think people look at that, I think there's certainly a segment of the population that was definitely holding out hope that he might end up as the Vice President of the United States. But I think that you know his willingness to go out on the trail and to and to stump for Kamala Harris and to try and speak about her bona fides as a candidate, and her strengths and what she could do for the country and her vision.

I think people are taking note of that, particularly the Jewish community. Whether that will sway everybody to a particular candidate, I don't know. But I definitely do know that people are taking notice of it because people are speaking about it in a favorable way.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

What is he saying when he stumps for her? What is he saying to get out all those voters? 

Aaron Troodler:  

Well, he's trying to paint her as basically, not just the best choice, but the only choice. Obviously, he, I guess it's no secret. I don't think he's really a fan of Donald Trump, and I don't think he pulls any punches when it comes to that regard. But I think in Josh Shapiro's mind, the governor really firmly believes that the Vice President is the best person to lead this country forward. 

And I think when you when you factor in all the issues, for example, we talked about domestic issues at the outset of the conversation, when you look at all those issues, and you don't only make it about Israel, there's a thought that perhaps Kamala Harris is that person, and that's the message that Josh Shapiro’s trying to convey. 

You know, obviously Trump supporters look at that and shake their heads, because they don't buy into that. But I think in terms of the case that he's trying to make to the voters, particularly to Jewish voters, it is a compelling case, because he's a compelling messenger.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You talked about canvassers being all over Pennsylvania, especially the greater Philadelphia area. Can you paint a scene for our listeners? I mean, do you see teams of people walking the streets? Have people knocked on your doors, rung your doorbell? Tell me what kind of things you're seeing. What you see day to day in Greater Philadelphia.

Aaron Troodler:  

I think I can probably measure the amount of canvassers by the number of door hangers that have been left on my front door over the past several months. There's a huge effort. You have people coming from different states. All descending on Pennsylvania. And there is a particular emphasis on the Jewish community, particularly in suburban Philadelphia. 

I was covering an event for the Philadelphia Jewish Exponent a number of weeks ago, where Doug Emhoff came and was the featured speaker at a Get Out The Jewish [Vote] event in a Philadelphia suburb. Ben Stiller was there, the well known actor. Senator Ben Cardin, who is the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, came up from Maryland. Debbie Wasserman Schultz, the congresswoman from Florida, was there. 

It's a full blown effort on the part of both campaigns to try and cultivate the Jewish vote, try to generate more Jewish support. Both sides of the coin. I think you know, the Republican Jewish Coalition has put a very significant emphasis on this election, whether it be through ads, whether it be through surrogates, whether it be through the canvassers, they're everywhere. 

And I think I think it's good. I think it's not only does it underscore the importance of Philadelphia's Jewish community in in an election that literally has national implications, but it enables people. When somebody knocks on your door, if you answer the door, you can engage in a dialogue. Obviously they are slanted to a particular candidate, whether it be Kamala Harris or Donald Trump, and that's fine, but it gives voters who perhaps are still undecided at this point the opportunity to have a conversation with the folks who are knocking on their doors about the issues that are important to them. 

But I think just by virtue of the sheer number of canvassers who have been kind of traversing our neighborhoods over the past several weeks, I think it's indicative of the outsized role that Philadelphia's Jewish community’s playing in the presidential election.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You mentioned Governor Shapiro is kind of a surrogate for the Harris-Walz campaign. Does the Trump campaign have a surrogate in Pennsylvania or in the Philadelphia area?

Aaron Troodler:  

So they have people who are coming around. There's Peter Deutsch, who's a former congressman from Florida, who's a democratic congressman from Florida, came up to not just Pennsylvania, but the greater Philadelphia area, in particular, to spend several weeks. I know he was here over the Sukkot holiday. You know, they are bringing folks in because they're trying to make the case to people that look, you know, when it comes to the issues that you, the Jewish community, cares about, Donald Trump's your man. 

And they are doing that, and they're trying to do it in a way that will resonate with people. And we mentioned some high profile people on the Democratic side. You know there are people on the Republican side, whether it's Congressman Deutsch, other people are coming in. The RJC has been very active in the community recently. 

And in addition to official campaign surrogates, you know you have conversations happening in synagogues, you know, community institutions, where regular folks are conversing with one another. So each campaign, in addition to the, let's call them the official surrogates, you have these armies of unofficial surrogates who are talking with one another and trying to convince their peers to vote for a particular candidate.

And with all the holidays that we just had on the Jewish calendar, spent a lot of time in shul, in the synagogue, and there’s a lot of folks talking about the presidential election. And I'll tell you, quite frankly, there's no consensus. There are people that are absolutely pro-Trump, and they're people that are absolutely pro-Harris. And I think those folks are trying to impart to what's called the undecided people, their feelings about the campaign and their particular candidates. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I do want to clarify for listeners, Peter Deutsch should not be confused with Ted Deutch, AJC CEO, who has not been in Pennsylvania canvassing as a surrogate for either candidate. It's a different Deutsch.

But what about rabbis? How involved are rabbis getting into this campaign? How involved have they been in these conversations?

Aaron Troodler:  

So it's interesting. Whenever you broach the topic of politics from the pulpit, it becomes very tricky. Obviously, there’s 501(c)(3) status considerations and stuff of that nature that I think rabbis are always mindful of. So what they talk about from the pulpit and how they talk about it is usually done very carefully and deliberately. That all being said, there's no question that maybe, behind the scenes, let's call it, rabbis, have very distinct opinions about this. 

How that will sway congregants in their respective congregations, it's hard to know. But I do think, I think because rabbis have spent so much time over the past year, post-October 7, talking about these issues of Israel's security and survival and the things that we need to do to help Israel, this is just another step in that process. Obviously, the next President of the United States is going to play a pivotal role in Israel's future and Israel's security. 

The relationship between the US and Israel is paramount, and Israel depends heavily on the United States, whether it be for the military aid, strategic aid and cooperation. And on the other side of the coin, the United States relies on Israel for many national and security considerations. 

But I think because rabbis have spent so much time talking about that stuff, it's top of mind for everybody. It's at the forefront of all of our minds. And whether or not they get up from the pulpit and endorse a particular candidate, I’m not sure that's going to happen in most situations, but there's no question that rabbis are trying to convey to their congregants the importance of ensuring that Israel has a strong friend and ally in the White House.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Aaron, thank you so much for joining us and shedding a little light on what's going on in your neck of the woods. 

Aaron Troodler:  

Of course Manya, thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure chatting with you. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

If you missed last week's episode, be sure to tune in for a conversation with AJC Jerusalem Director Lt. Col. Avital Leibovich, and AJC Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer, Jason Isaacson, about the Israeli Defense Force’s elimination of Yahya Sinwar, the architect of the October 7 terror attacks. 

This Hanukkah, we hear from Rabbi Yael Buechler, a writer, educator, entrepreneur, and Hanukkah merch maven. She’s also a Hanukkah historian who has tracked how the festival of lights helped reinvent Jewish culture in America and how it became a gift-giving occasion alongside Christmas. Rabbi Beuchler joins us to discuss how American Jews can take advantage of the marketplace to express their Jewish pride authentically during the Hanukkah season, despite increasing antisemitism–with inflatable menorahs, dreidel nail decals, holiday pajamas, and more.

Also, hear from listeners on the Hanukkah traditions they are finding meaning in this year.

___

Episode Lineup:

• (0:00) Jessica Bernton
• (1:52) Listener Hanukkah Voicemails
• (3:28) Rabbi Yael Buechler

___

Show Notes:

If you’re alarmed by rising antisemitism, you can take action right now by supporting AJC: visit AJC.org/donate, or text AJC DONATE to 52886.

Music credits: Lille by johnny_ripper is licensed under a Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 (Will Not Appear in Vimeo Music Store) License.

Please Stop Rebranding Christmas Items for Hanukkah by Rabbi Yael Bucheler

Listen to: 

• 5 Hanukkah Podcasts to Light Up Your Holiday
• 7 Podcasts to Help You Understand, Respond To, and Prevent Antisemitism
• Our latest podcast episode: What Does NYC's Office for the Prevention of Hate Crimes Do?; An Elton John Hanukkah Celebration

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

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AJC CEO Ted Deutch reflects on Jewish American Heritage Month, highlighting the historical contributions of Jewish Americans and discussing the concept of heroism in the face of rising antisemitism. Ted also shares what it means to be a hero today, especially in the wake of 10/7, and who he considers to be among his own heroes. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Ted Deutch

Show Notes:

Learn more:

• Join AJC in Celebrating Jewish American Heritage Month

• Quiz: Test your knowledge of the rich culture and heritage of the Jewish people and their many contributions to our nation

Listen to AJC’s People of the Pod:

• The Chaos at Columbia: What It’s Like to be Jewish on Campus Right Now

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You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

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Episode Transcript:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Amid the recent rise of antisemitism and the unease that brings, we are marking the month of May as Jewish American Heritage Month. This is a time when so many of us in the Jewish community are feeling misunderstood, unwelcome, and confronting hatred. But the American Jewish experience is so much more than standing up to hatred and bigotry. Over the past 370 years, Jewish Americans have served in government, the military, they've won Nobel Prizes, headed universities and corporations, advanced medicine, the arts and justice. Here to celebrate Jewish American Heritage is AJC's CEO Ted Deutch. 

Ted, welcome back to People of the Pod.

Ted Deutch:  

Thank you very much.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Ted, you began serving in Congress in 2010 A few years after a Jewish American Heritage Month was first proclaimed in 2006 Can you tell us a little bit of the history behind Jewish American Heritage or what we like to call JAHM.

Ted Deutch:  

Well, Jewish American Heritage Month has been around for almost 20 years. Congress passed a resolution that was led by my former colleague Debbie Wasserman Schultz to acknowledge the important contributions that Jewish Americans have made throughout our history. And in 2006, President George W. Bush designated the month of May to be Jewish American Heritage Month, and there have been presidential proclamations every year since.

This year, President Biden proclaimed May to be Jewish American Heritage Month and outlined the history of the American Jewish community and the fact that Jewish American culture is so inextricably woven into the fabric of our country. He talked about the importance of Jewish American suffragettes and activists and leaders marching for civil rights and women's rights and voting rights. He talked about the contributions of, of Jewish men and women in uniform and on the Supreme Court. And throughout multiple administrations. It's an acknowledgement that we are really forming an important part of the fabric of this country. And we have to spend time thinking about that, particularly in a moment when so many are really taking positions and saying things that challenge our contributions that are made, and that really put so many of us in the Jewish community on edge, make us feel at risk. This is an important opportunity to really stand proudly as Jewish Americans.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You know, during the month of March, Women's History Month, I always discover a new role model, a particularly amazing woman that I never knew existed. And the same is often true during Jewish American Heritage Month. But in reverse, I discovered that people whom I always thought to be amazing, and heroes in my book are Jewish. Do you have heroes growing up who you discovered were, or maybe you already knew, were Jewish?

Ted Deutch:  

It's interesting. Our community is, I think, always looking to elevate those from our community who make a meaningful impact in society. 

I remember when I learned about Eddie Jacobson, that was one of those moments for me. Eddie Jacobson was a friend, business partner of Harry Truman. And, he played such a really interesting role during the war when, when he was focused on the plight of the Jews in Europe. His friendship led him to go advocate with then-Senator Truman to urge the us to do more for the Jews who are being discriminated against, harassed. Ultimately those who were being sent to concentration camps.

That was a relationship that he had, and was able to use to help strengthen his own community. 

And what he did that I think was even more important than that, was following the war when he understood that there was this opportunity for the rebirth of the modern state of Israel. He went to urge his, again, his friend, then-President Truman, to to meet with Haim Weitzman, the leader of the Zionist movement, and President Truman was reluctant, but because of that relationship, that that personal relationship, Eddie Jacobson was able to convince the President to take that meeting, which then ultimately led to the recognition of the State of Israel by the United States just minutes after it declared, Israel declared its independence, being the first country to to recognize Israel.

He’s a hero in the history of the Jewish people. He played a really important role, I think, in the history of the country. And I think most people had no idea or may never have heard of him. 

There are also the heroes within the Jewish community that in Jewish American Heritage Month we have the chance to think about people who impacted us, impacted the way we work to strengthen the Jewish community who maybe aren't famous at all.

When I think about the people, the Jewish leaders that I was privileged to know when I was a college student. Our [University of Michigan] Hillel director, Michael Brooks, and the professors who helped guide us where, at a moment years ago when we were facing antisemitism. When the student newspaper ran this series of outrageously anti-Zionist, antisemitic editorials, unfortunately, sounding familiar, the support from these heroic adults, for those of us who were students, to go out and to hold rallies and to protest outside of the student newspaper, to make sure that people understood what the facts were–that kind of heroism really resonates because it's a reminder of what we can do for young people now at a moment when they're looking to others in the community to help support them.

It really carries right through to, to the work that I get to do every day, that I'm so privileged to do and, and really the ways that all of us can work behind the scenes to help lift up the voices of Jewish young people today.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

It's interesting that you kind of bring up who the heroes were for yourself when you were younger. I mean, I'm sure I'm sure you've been to baseball games, Yankees, Cubs, Mighty Mussels, whoever your team might be.

Ted Deutch:  

The Mighty what?

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

The Mighty Mussels, they're in Fort Myers, Florida. It's also the name of my son's baseball team. They're named after minor league teams. But I'm sure you've been to these games where the announcer calls the heroes to stand, be recognized by the crowd. And everyone knows that the announcer is calling on veterans, right members of the military, first responders, and they are undoubtedly heroes. But in those moments, I often wish they would list all the many types of heroes when they do that. The doctors, the nurses, the teachers, God bless them. 

How do you define hero?

Ted Deutch: 

Well, you're exactly right, and what those moments feel like. And first of all, I think it's important that we acknowledge injury, Jewish American Heritage Month, the contributions of Jewish Americans throughout our nation's history, in defending our country, we've talked before, I mean, I talk a lot about my father, who graduated from high school and enlisted in the Army to go fight the Nazis, and earned a Purple Heart in the Battle of the Bulge. And all of the people like him who, whether it was in World War Two, or Korea or Vietnam, right on through the wars, in the Middle East wars in Afghanistan and, and in Iraq, the contributions from Jewish Americans who were proudly Jewish, as they served our country, those are really important to remember and every time at a sporting event where they ask the heroes to rise, I think it's important to think about that, you know, down here in South Florida, when they do that, at sporting events, it's not unusual, especially if they're recognizing someone from World War Two or the conflict in Korea in particular, it's just not that unusual for the veterans to be Jewish Americans. And there's always an extra amount of pride that you feel when they make those announcements. I do think it's important to think about all that we've contributed in defense of the country. 

But you're right. There are so many people who are heroes, who serve our country in other ways. We had a moment during COVID, where I think everybody recognized the heroism of our first responders, our doctors and nurses and people went in when COVID was raging, and people knew so very little about it. And every day, they went to work to take care of people and help save lives. And there was that moment. And I think it's important that we have more moments like that. 

It's true for police officers and firefighters and first responders. Again, too often, I think we sort of take for granted the work that so many people do, putting themselves out in service of others. 

And you mentioned teachers, there's just no question that the contributions of teachers and so many Jewish teachers among them, who have committed their lives to helping prepare the next generation, to help them become citizens in our country and understand our history and learn what they need to be able to thrive in our society and in their lives. They're doing an incredible service, and should be recognized as well. 

And so when we think about Jewish American Heritage Month, look, I'm all for thinking about, getting back to athletes. I'm all for thinking about Alex Bregman from the Astros. And for those of us who are hockey fans, it's the glory days for Jews in hockey, and Zach Hyman and the Hughs and others, but it's the people that we've not heard of whose names we don't know, who come from our own families that we need to hold up and think about as the real heroes for the work they do every day in their lives. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

It has been seven months now, since terrorists attacked Israel on October 7. And I'm curious if in your opinion, the last seven months have changed what it means to be a hero, especially in the Jewish world.

Ted Deutch: 

Well, there are all kinds of people in the Jewish world right now who are doing heroic work since 10/7 in ways that either weren't necessary, or were unappreciated before 10/7. Because the challenge There's so much greater. 

We were just talking about people who served the country. IDF soldiers are heroes and what the IDF has done since 10/7 to defend Israel in the face of the horrific attacks by Hamas is heroic, and the loss of life is painful. And so even as we mourn those soldiers who have been killed, we have to take a moment to appreciate the heroism. 

But there are others, the hostage families who traveled to New York and Washington and around the world and we at AJC are so privileged to work with so many of them to help give them voice and make sure that they're heard. But as they struggle now, for more than 200 days that their loved ones have been held captive deep below Gaza, they continue to go out and advocate for the release of their loved ones. And to help people understand that these are real people, and we feel like we've gotten to know them. And that's because of the heroic actions that their loved ones have taken. 

There are people in social media who have become heroes for every day just going to battle against the lies and misinformation on so many of the social media outlets. In the United States, on college campuses right now, what we've seen from so many students, whether they're on our Campus Global Board, high school students from our LFT program, but wherever they are, the ability for students to stand up and to say, in the face of these protests that are often directed at the Jewish community, the language is horrific, and it is dangerous and unacceptable. 

And in the face of all of that. the number of students and young people who are standing up saying, I am a proud Jew who loves Israel. And I'm going to fight back in all of the ways I can to make sure that people know who we are, to make sure that they understand the truth of what's happening now. 

There are so many young people now who are doing heroic things, and will continue to do heroic things, I have no doubt, for the rest of their lives. And I think it's important to stop to acknowledge that.

I know these days, it's not popular to talk about heroes in politics. But if you pause for a moment and think about what Richie Torres has done, as a member of Congress, a progressive member of Congress, standing firmly in support of Israel and Israel's right to defend itself and speaking with a moral clarity that we wish others could follow. Ritchie's a hero. John Fetterman, staring down the protesters day after day, the way that he does, is a hero. 

At a time when there is so little bipartisanship, the fact that Speaker Johnson decided to move forward with the aid package for Israel and Ukraine and Taiwan with humanitarian aid and got that done, we should be celebrating his contributions. 

There are a lot of people that we really need to stop and be grateful for. And obviously, they're not all Jews. But it's a moment when the Jewish community, as we're thinking about our own heroes, should pause to be grateful for those who have really been helpful to the community. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Now you've just mentioned a lot of the people who've had a high profile since October 7. Any ordinary or overlooked heroes that we might not think to recognize?

Ted Deutch: 

Being a parent of a Jewish child shouldn't be heroic. And yet, seeing parents find more ways for their kids to really understand who we are, as a community find more ways for them to be involved, by more ways for them to learn, especially after 10/7, really teaching more and more about who we are as Jews, to our kids, that's heroic. 

I don't think it should be heroic to be a rabbi, or a Hebrew school teacher, or someone who works at a day school or in the Jewish community. But in this post 10/7 world, that work in so many instances is heroic, because of all of the baggage that comes with, with the protesters, with the challenges to the community, with the things that we see on social media, to get up every single day, and to be there as leaders in the Jewish community in synagogues, in schools, in the organizational world. As we prepare to get ready for camp season. All of these Jewish professionals are doing heroic work, and the community is so much better and stronger for it and for them.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

How did October 7th change you and your approach to either public service or service to the Jewish people?

Ted Deutch: 

First, there's an urgency with which I try to meet every single day, since 10/7, I think it's something that we all feel. I think a lot about the way that we felt on 10/7, that morning when we were learning about what happened and the fragility of Israel. And the notion that the Jewish community and Israel are so inextricably linked became more powerful than ever, and that both felt at risk that day and the days after.

It's just required a constant and urgent focus on trying to make sure that people understand what's actually happening, putting out meaningful and factual information and pushing back against false narratives, something that we've tried so hard to do, literally since 10/7. Hlping people understand that the protests didn't start when IDF soldiers marched into Gaza to defend Israel and Jewish people. They started after Hamas slaughtered 1,200 people on October 7. These were protests in support of this vile terrorism. 

And helping people understand that when Iran launched close to 350 missiles and drones, it was part of an ongoing effort through Iran, with Iran to the head, but that includes Hamas and Hezbollah, and the militia in Iraq and the militia in Syria, and the Houthis, and others throughout the region, all to target Israel, again, urgently making that clear every single day. 

So there's an urgency, there is a passion to make sure that the commitment in the community, the way that people have stood up and said, You know what, there are a lot of things that are important, but man our community needs, it needs us to focus on ourselves. That ultimately, the only people that we know that we can count on are the Jewish people. 

And yes, we're going to continue to work with our friends and allies and partners. That's important. But working hard to retain the sense of unity within the Jewish community is also something that was never really a priority. But now that we've seen what that unity looks like, and what it means when we all stand together, in the face of this Hamas evil in the face of these protesters celebrating terrorism, and calling for the destruction of Israel, that's a unity that we have to desperately try to hold on to, and to bring people together around, not just while this war is going on, but on into the future.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Ted, thank you so much for joining us.

Ted Deutch: 

I hope people will use this as an opportunity to share their own stories, their family stories, the stories of the people that they know deserve some attention for what they've done to strengthen America. 

And I hope that they'll go out and they'll tell the story and they'll get others to listen. Our contributions to America have been so rich and varied and instrumental to the kind of country that we have and the kind of country that we know we need to continue to be. These are stories that everyone needs to hear. So I very much appreciate the opportunity.

As new negotiations begin to tackle Iran’s nuclear program, missile development, and support for terror proxies, tensions are escalating. Jason Isaacson, AJC Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer, joins us to unpack the legacy of the 2015 Iran nuclear deal (JCPOA) and withdrawal in 2018, and Iran’s dangerous stockpiling of uranium, getting them closer to nuclear weapons capabilities. With U.S. Special Envoy Steve Witkoff leading talks and key UN sanctions expiring soon, the stakes are higher than ever. Don’t miss Jason’s insights on what the U.S. is demanding, the potential for successful diplomacy, and the global risks posed by Iran.

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Transcript of Interview with Jason Isaacson:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Negotiations begin on Saturday to curtail Iran's nuclear fuel enrichment, infrastructure, missile program and support of Hezbollah Hamas and other terror proxies around the world. US Special envoy to the Middle East, Steve Witkoff, will shepherd the talks. At the same time he's handling discussions around Gaza and Ukraine with us to discuss the potential of these negotiations and their impact is AJC Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer, Jason Isaacson. Jason, welcome back to People of the Pod.

Jason Isaacson:  

Thanks, Manya. It's good to be back.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So Jason, the Obama administration sealed the deal in 2015 to curtail Iran's nuclear program, which President Trump then withdrew from in 2018. What did that original deal look like? 

Jason Isaacson:  

Of course, the United States pulled out of the deal in 2018 as you said, whereupon, after a period of reflection and some uncertainty, the Iranians started violating the agreement. The original agreement that was called the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action allowed the Iranians to enrich their uranium up to 3.67% purity of uranium. You need something like 90% in order to make a bomb. They were allowed to keep just 300 kilograms of that enriched uranium. The rest of their stockpile of uranium had to be shipped out of the country, which it was. 

There were other restrictions that were imposed on Iran. They had to disable a plutonium facility that also was a possible avenue toward a nuclear device. They had to allow intrusive inspections, not as intrusive as some had hoped, and they had to limit the degree of sophistication of their centrifuges. They had a very robust centrifuge production capacity, which had to be limited. They had to disable certain centrifuges that they already had, and they couldn't advance them further. 

There were a number of these other restrictions that were imposed in the return for which the Iranians were going to have sanctions removed, sanctions that had held back their economic growth, limited the degree to which they could ship their oil and gas to vendors, to customers around the world. It was a good trade for the Iranians, but from our perspective, it lacked certain things. It certainly lacked objectives that the administration, at that time, the Obama administration, we thought, had been pursuing, which was not only to limit the ability of the Iranians to produce a nuclear weapon, but to affect other aspects of Iranian behavior, their missile program, their advanced ballistic missile program, their support for proxies that endangered stability and security across the region and beyond. 

Those issues ended up getting dropped in the nuclear negotiations. They were just focused on nuclear program, which was a reason why AJC opposed the deal when it was announced in 2015 and why Donald Trump campaigning for president and then after he became president, after giving it a run to try to find a way to perhaps induce European partners to go back to the negotiating table and impose additional restrictions on the Iranians, including covering the missile program, lengthening the amount of time that would be held in check the nuclear program of Iran for maybe not just 15 years, but 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 years. Those efforts were ultimately abandoned. Was impossible to reach an agreement between the United States and the European allies, and so in 2018 the president pulled out.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So besides the man in charge, what has changed in the last decade since that time?

Jason Isaacson:  

Iran has serially and outrageously violated the terms that were agreed to 2015 they were initially allowed, as I said, to have 300 kilograms of low enriched uranium. They now have 8200 kilograms plus, according to the IAEA, the International Atomic Energy Agency, and some of that is enriched up to a level of 60% which is really, frankly, just below the level needed for a nuclear device. So they're way out of alignment, way out of the agreement that they had reached in 2015 now, of course, in addition to that, the Iranian economy has suffered a decade of sanctions, high inflation, high unemployment, rolling. Blackouts in major cities, the brain drain. 

Smart Iranians realizing there's no economic future in their country and have left and of course, over the last year and a half, after the Hamas attacked on Israel of October 7, 2023 Iran, a supporter of Hamas, a funder and supplier of Hamas, after a few months, it posed its own attacks, fired missiles and drones at Israel in support of Hamas' activities and also in support of Hezbollah, the other Iranian proxy on Israel's northern border. So twice in the last year and a half, we've had attacks by Iran against Israel, which Israel responded to, and significantly weakened terrorists in Lebanon, Hezbollah. And of course, the Hamas, they decapitated Hezbollah, and they also struck back at Iran, after Iran fired missiles and drones that had mostly been intercepted by Israel's air defenses in cooperation with the United States, and frankly, some Arab partners and also France and the UK.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So does Iran have as much leverage as it had in 2015?

Jason Isaacson:  

It must be said that Iran is weakened. It's weakened economically, it's weakened militarily, its air defenses have been exposed and significantly damaged, and it has seen that its attempts to strike at Israel are deflected. By a combination of us and and especially Israeli forces, and also with the support of some regional allies and European allies as well. 

So Iran goes into this negotiation with the Trump administration in a poorer position to make its demands heard and enforced, except for the fact that Iran is proud and it has shown under enormous economic duress, they have continued to advance their nuclear program. They clearly believe that this is part of their right and necessity if they are going to provide some kind of a defense for themselves against what they see as a US led us in cooperation, in partnership with Israel, led effort to weaken them and drive them away from their power in the Gulf, to limit their ability to exert influence across the region. So they may be in a poorer position. Whether that will be evident in the negotiating table is another question.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

President Trump criticized the Obama administration for not walking away when Iran didn't meet America's demands. Do you see this negotiation unfolding quite differently than that one did?

Jason Isaacson:  

Well, there are a couple of factors here. One the Iranians are famous negotiators, famous for being exacting and excruciating and insistent on certain points in the texts that they discuss. They have their own interpretations for texts. This was an issue in the past. And the pain that is exerted on their counterparts in negotiations, I have heard people talk about, both from the Gulf and from US officials, how difficult it is to actually have the negotiation with the Iranians. 

They will insist on going again and again and again through every codicil, every agreement, every annex, to a point that will sort of drive people up a wall until they, according to, I think the Iranians calculation, give up and say, Okay, fine, we'll concede you on that point. I'm concerned that they are so practiced at this negotiating style, which I suppose you have to say they've been practicing for thousands of years. I am not sure that in this kind of rushed effort to move into negotiations with, frankly, a very capable negotiator in Steve Witkoff, who certainly has the trust of the President. And he was successful in helping move forward hostage negotiations very early on. 

In fact, frankly, the day before the inauguration of President Trump, Steve Witkoff was instrumental in advancing that cease fire and hostage release deal. But there's a lot on Steve Witkoff's shoulders. He's also involved in the Ukraine, Russia negotiations. He is not and I'm sure he would say this himself, an expert on the Iranian nuclear file and all the details of the nuclear enrichment and the capabilities of the Iranians to deceive their negotiators. So I am hopeful that we will have something to celebrate after these negotiations get off the ground. But I think it's also fair to say that it's with some trepidation that we look ahead to the possibility of sitting down with practiced negotiators who have been doing this for decades.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Is there a sense of urgency here? How long do you anticipate these negotiations taking?

Jason Isaacson:  

Frankly, the negotiation over the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action took something like two years. We had a preliminary agreement in 2014 the final agreement in 2015 then the Biden administration, after the Trump administration, pulled out of the deal. When the Biden administration came in, in 2021 there was an effort for about two years to go back to the negotiating table with the Iranians. Very complicated, very difficult. Ultimately unsuccessful. It is not easy to negotiate with these guys. I'm hopeful that this administration have taken lessons from the experience of the past. Have experts around them who know the Iranian file, who have actually sat across the table from Iranians and can work with them to a successful conclusion. 

The other issue that must be put on the table here is that come October, one key point of leverage in this entire process, the ability to snap back the United Nations sanctions that were put in place years ago and that were then suspended when the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action took effect, with the support of the United Nations. The ability to snap back those very heavy UN sanctions, which don't only apply to oil, energy sector applies to transportation and banking and other aspects of Iranian behavior, would really be crippling sanctions. The ability to snap those back, put those back in place, will expire on October 18 of this year, which means that we have just a few months to come up with some kind of agreement with Iran that is better than what we had in 2015. If we don't, all bets off. 

Then we're back to a place where we have lost the ability to have the entire international community, all UN member states, comply with a renewed set of sanctions. And then it'll be a whole process of trying to get other countries on board. If we're going to try to exert maximum pressure, really maximum pressure. That means not just us pressure, but maximum pressure applied by the international community at large. We're going to lose that if we don't reach some kind of an agreement or snap back before October 18. So the clock is ticking. The pressure is on. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Well, certainly the scope of what the Trump administration is pursuing with Iran is much broader. The Obama era agreement, for example, limited Iran's stockpiles of nuclear material. The Trump administration wants to take it all apart, completely dismantle the country's nuclear infrastructure, dismantle its missile program, its longtime support for Hamas and Hezbollah. Certainly, that's what everyone wants. But is it realistic?

Jason Isaacson:  

What we've heard from President Trump and from Mike Waltz, the national security adviser and Secretary Rubio others who have commented on this in recent days, they are insisting that the Iranians dismantle, fully dismantle, in the words of the National Security Advisor, their ability to enrich uranium to have the stockpile necessary for an eventual nuclear bomb. You know, countries can have a nuclear program, but they don't have to enrich their own uranium. They can buy uranium for their nuclear reactors, for energy purposes and research and medical purposes. The Iranians want the full nuclear cycle. They basically got that in the negotiations a decade ago. 

This administration clearly wants to remove that ability for the Iranians. That's going to be a very hard thing to sell to the Iranians. And in addition to that, the administration has made it clear that preventing the Iranians from advancing a military nuclear program is just one of their objectives. It's a main objective, but the other objectives are eliminating their ability to advance their ballistic missile program, which was really designed for the sole purpose of being able to carry a nuclear warhead to Europe, to the United States, to Israel, other neighbors, other enemies of the Iranians. And then also, very clearly that this administration wants to negotiate an end to Iranian support for its proxy network, for the militias in Iraq and Syria. Used to be in Syria for Hezbollah, for Hamas, for other terrorist groups. 

That's a very tall order. You're basically saying, Iran, get down on your knees and give up all of the weapons that you have assiduously assembled over the last decades to protect yourself against the depredations of the horrible West and of your longtime neighbors who have maybe some designs on your territory, you might think. And they're not going to do that. So it's going to be very difficult. We have sanctions, we have influence, we have pressure that we can put on the Iranians, and there are two aircraft carrier battle groups that are stationed not very far away that will exert military pressure on the Iranians. So very complicated negotiations, a lot of assets, a lot of equities at play here, I wish the administration well. It will be a very difficult road to get the Iranians to see ground on all of these points.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

It is hard to believe that a hostile country, especially, that supports terrorism around the world, would agree to become essentially defenseless. But there is a history of it, right? I mean, in the early aughts, Libya, they agreed to dismantle their nuclear program under the Bush administration in 2003. Could something similar happen here? Or does the United States just not have that same leverage?

Jason Isaacson:  

Look, we've heard the reference to Libya. In fact, it was made by the administration just in recent days as well. And yes, it's true that in 2003 the Libyans did relinquish their nuclear weapons program. There were, I think, 10 sites across Libya that international inspectors were allowed to visit. And dismantle the program that had been going on for a number of years. But then, of course, we all know, eight years later, Muammar Gaddafi was toppled, was overthrown and hunted down and later killed. Another example in 1994 is the Budapest Memorandum in which Ukraine and Belarus and Kazakhstan gave up their nuclear weapons that were part of the arsenals that have been kept there by the former Soviet Union. Relinquished those weapons, those warheads were sent back to Russia. It was a very complicated negotiation. 

The United States and the United Kingdom and Russia all agreed at that time, 1994, that they would never attack Ukraine and Belarus and Kazakhstan. They would not use military force, they would not use economic coercion unless an act of self defense. But the agreement very controversial in Ukraine at the time, to give up what had been the world's third largest nuclear stockpile was relying on these assurances from the West that they would not be attacked if they gave up their nuclear deterrent and turned it back to now, what was Russia, which is the seat of power of the Soviet Union. 

Two decades later, Russia comes along and annexes Crimea and attacks in the Donbas region of eastern Ukraine. And now, of course, you know, here we are a decade after that, where Russia is seizing a significant portion of Ukrainian territory and killing 1000s of Ukrainians. So the lesson, yes, is that you can negotiate away a nuclear program. But the other lesson that follows from that is, yes, you can negotiate it away, and you can find yourself facing terrible dangers, having lost that deterrent capacity.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Okay, so the US did previously hammer out a deal in 2015. Are there any details of that deal that are worth bringing back to the table, or is the Trump administration starting from scratch?

Jason Isaacson:  

Well, look, if they're able to, in these negotiations, come to an agreement on the dismantling, really the destruction, of the capacity of the Iranians to with any centrifuges advanced or otherwise, to enrich uranium, to create a stockpile from which they could later secretly advance a military nuclear program. If that's what we agree to, there have to be very comprehensive and intrusive and unannounced inspections by the IAEA, perhaps by other national agencies as well. If the Iranians could agree to that the United States overseeing the destruction of these facilities, that would pick up on sort of the inspection aspect of the 2015 agreement. And go, of course, significantly farther. 

If they're able to provide other assurances on other research facilities that the Iranians have, making sure that any research is unearthed, is exposed, is destroyed, ceases to present the possibility that the Iranians could actually advance the military nuclear program if all those steps could be put in place, which again, would be taking what happened in 2015 and JCPOA, and just magnifying it, intensifying it way beyond what was possible to negotiate at that time, according to those who tried very hard to negotiate a stronger agreement, but we're left with what they actually were able to accomplish in 2015. Let's hope that's possible. I don't know if it will be possible. 

But there would be, of course, in any agreement going forward, there would be certain elements that are related to and are outgrowths of and are really expansions on what happened in the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, except that this administration has set a very high bar, and there will be many critics in the United States and Congress, around the world, in Israel but elsewhere in the region, if the administration rushes to a deal that falls short of its very ambitious expectations.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You mentioned Israel, if President Trump follows through on his threats of military strikes on Iran, if negotiations don't go as he has planned, could that put Israel at more risk than it already is.

Jason Isaacson:  

It could. I think there is really no one in the region who wants a war, as everyone knows, as everyone has seen in successive military conflicts, the outcome of war is unpredictable, usually worse than what is expected. I think Israel does not want a war, but Israel cannot live with an Iranian nuclear threat, and if there is not the possibility of negotiating away this nuclear threat, I think that everyone would understand that a small country that has already been attacked twice in the last year by Iran, which had demonstrated its intention to strangle and destroy Israel again and again, and says it at every opportunity that it gets, everyone would understand if Israel had to take certain action, and if Israel and the United States were to act together. 

Are providing a greater chance of success, I think that would be understandable and, frankly, laudable. The best possible option is a negotiation in which the Iranian nuclear program is forever put out of business. Let's hope we can get to that. Let's hope that the Trump administration is successful in these efforts.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And also, speaking of Israel, how much did or should Israel be contributing to these negotiations?

Jason Isaacson:  

Well, let's hope that, unlike in 2014 2015 when the United States negotiated with Iran, alongwith France and Germany and Great Britain and the European Union and Russia and China. Let's hope that the neighbors of Iran, those who were most affected by Iranian threats, are involved in this process in a much more serious way. 

There was a great deal of complaining in the Gulf, in Israel, justifiably, in 2015 that the JCPOA, which really was designed to make the region safer. And of course, American security interests of being advanced took place in the absence of real input on the part of those who would be most affected. And let's hope that this goes in a very different direction.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

In other words, not just Israel, but all of their neighbors in the Gulf.

Jason Isaacson:  

Not just Israel, but the neighbors in the GCC who themselves have been attacked from time to time by Iran and by Iran's proxies, the Houthis, which I did not mention before, of course, in Yemen, have attacked their neighbors on the Arabian Peninsula. Saudi Aramco was attacked by Iranian missiles a number of years ago. Ships on their way to and from the UAE have been attacked. So they all have an interest in limiting the ability of Iran to project force and to threaten the region, particularly with the nuclear capability. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Jason, thank you so much for your time and expertise on this matter. I suspect we will be talking again soon as this develops. 

Jason Isaacson:  

I look forward to it, Manya, thank you very much.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Be sure to tune in for my conversation with journalist Yardena Schwartz about her first book, Ghosts of a Holy War, the 1929 Massacre in Palestine that ignited the Arab Israeli conflict. Yardena shared how history repeated itself on October 7, 2023 and why understanding the past is essential to making sense of the present. 

From April 27 to 29th we will be at AJC Global Forum in New York City, join American Jewish Committee and over 2000 committed activists at the premier global Jewish advocacy conference of the year after the horrific attack on October 7, 2023 and in this fraught moment for the global Jewish community, escalating threats worldwide underscore the importance of our mission. All who care about the fate of the Jewish people Israel and the values of the civilized world must respond now with action, urgency and resolve. 

If ever there was a time to stand up and be counted, that time is now. Your voice is needed now more than ever. If you won't be with us in person, you can tune in to the webcast at AJC.org/GlobalForum2025. 

Jason Isaacson, AJC Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer, joins us to share insights on the key priorities from the sidelines of this year's UN General Assembly. Each year, AJC experts spearhead diplomatic outreach to world leaders on crucial issues, from addressing anti-Israel bias and combating antisemitism to rallying global efforts against the Iranian threat. This year's discussions unfold against the backdrop of Israel's multi-front defensive war against Iran and its terror proxies, as well as a significant rise in antisemitism following Hamas' attacks on October 7. 

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• Explore the untold stories of Jews from Tunisia, Syria, Yemen, Morocco, and more.

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Transcript of Interview with Jason Isaacson:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

World Leaders convened at the United Nations this week to open the 79th session of the General Assembly every year, AJC experts lead the Jewish community's diplomatic outreach on issues ranging from confronting anti Israel bias and anti semitism to uniting the world against the Iranian threat. This year's meetings come amid a backdrop of Israel's seven-front defensive war against Iran and its terror proxies and the surge of antisemitism since Hamas' October 7 attacks on Israel. Here to discuss the priorities on the sidelines of this year's UN General Assembly is Jason Isaacson, AJC’s Chief Policy and Political Affairs officer. Jason, welcome to People of the Pod.

Jason Isaacson:  

Thank you, Manya. It's good to be here. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So I want to turn first to Israel's defense of military operations in Lebanon targeting Hezbollah. For years, AJC has been pushing the UN to designate all of Hezbollah a terrorist organization. How does Hezbollah's near daily attacks on Israel and this military operation change that plea.

Jason Isaacson:  

I mean, it changes it only in that it emphasizes, once again, its demonstration of the danger posed by Hezbollah, which, of course, is a threat to the security, the safety of the people of Israel, to peace across the region. But also Hezbollah has arms tentacles that reach elsewhere, reach into Europe for fundraising purposes, for narcotics trafficking, for money laundering posing a real threat to security, not just for the people of Israel, but for people elsewhere in the world. 

But what's been happening since October 8, when Hezbollah started firing rockets, missiles, anti tank weapons into northern Israel, killing Israelis, civilians and soldiers, destroying property, inflaming the region, unprovoked, but they did it in response to or as an ally of Hamas, another Iranian backed terror organization has just destabilized the region, made it impossible for 10s of 1000s of Israelis to live in their homes. 

They've had to evacuate the north, disrupting the personal lives of so many And now, of course, over the last week or two weeks, we've seen repeated huge barrages of rockets, missiles that have been fired into Israel, killing and destroying property. And it's intolerable. Israel cannot live with that kind of a threat on its border, and no country would tolerate this. Israel will not tolerate it. 

And so we're seeing decisive action in various ways that Israel has responded to these multiple threats. In the case of Lebanon, we've seen missile attacks on rocket launchers and command centers and commanders, very precise, targeted. Of course, it is war, and there has been collateral damage, and that is terrible, but Israel has been attacked relentlessly, ruthlessly by Hezbollah. It must respond. 

We've also seen very interesting, really quite clever, use of technologies that Israel has mastered in other ways to attack Hezbollah commanders and fighters. We are hopeful that this will send a very clear message to Hezbollah leadership and to their backers in Tehran that they really have to pull this back. There does not have to be a wider war in the region. 

It is really Hezbollah's decision, Iran's decision, whether to return to some state of calm where we can have the people of Israel return to their homes, the people of Southern Lebanon return to their homes and get back to, kind of normal life.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Do the diplomats you are encountering on the sidelines of the UN understand that? Do they acknowledge what you just said?

Jason Isaacson:  

The word on the lips of most diplomats is deescalate, avoid a wider war. And of course, we can all appreciate that no one wants a wider war. But what is a country to do that is being attacked daily by hundreds of rockets and missiles fired into cities and towns? 

It cannot just simply say, Oh, well, we're just going to restrain ourselves because, we're more moral than our terrorist neighbors. No country would do that. No country could make that decision. So yes, there is understanding of the situation that Israel is in. There is an appeal for lessening the tensions, for de-escalating. But I think that privately, it is widely understood that Israel has no choice but to defeat the terrorist enemies that are at its throat.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I spoke of the call to designate Hezbollah a terror organization in its entirety. Does Hamas need to be added to that plea for designation? Or do most diplomats already? Or I should say, do most countries already recognize Hamas as a terror organization? 

Jason Isaacson:  

Unfortunately, most countries do not already recognize Hezbollah as a terrorist organization, at least not formally. I mean, they may do it sort of rhetorically, and in a meeting with us, they may say that they of course recognize that. But for reasons that they will cite having to do with their need to continue to interact with the government of Lebanon, which of course has a very strong Hezbollah component in that government, they don't want to box themselves out as some kind of interaction with Beirut.

We could point out, as we do repeatedly, that it's not necessary to exclude contact with Lebanese authorities by designating Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. Other countries find ways around that problem. France and others that have cited this argument to us repeatedly could do so as well. But it's important that Hezbollah be designated as a terrorist organization. It's also important that the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps of Iran also be designated fully as a terrorist organization. 

Of course, the United States has done that. A number of other countries have as well, but that must be universal. It is so clear who is lighting the fires across the region, who is threatening the sovereignty, the security of a neighboring state. And for countries to not take those simple steps to try to clamp down on funding, on money transfers, on freedom of movement internationally, for leaders of the IRGC, for leaders of Hezbollah, is just turning a blind eye to terrorism. That's not tolerable.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

What about Hamas? Has that been designated by more countries as a terror organization than Hezbollah or the IRGC?

Jason Isaacson:  

Hamas is widely recognized as a terrorist organization, and I think that we need to press the countries that have not yet done so to add Hamas to the terrorist but we also have to not neglect the most important part of this equation, which is, of course, the support that Hamas and that Hezbollah get from Iran. And the fact that the sanctions that have been imposed on Iran are not always widely and carefully and universally enforced. 

The fact that Iran has been freed from certain restrictions that the UN imposed after the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action in 2015 in terms of its missile development, a lot of sanctions have to be restored, and the sanctions, particularly on the missile program of Iran, should be restored. And the United States in the next administration, whether it is a Harris administration or a Trump administration, I'm expecting a whole new playbook regarding the approach to Iran.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So the October 7 attacks, which happened shortly after last year's General Assembly, killed more than 1200 people. 101 hostages still remain in captivity. 

Has the UN adequately condemned Hamas for the October 7 atrocities, the recent murder of six hostages, and has it called for the unconditional release of the remaining hostages?

Jason Isaacson:  

No. Frankly, the UN response has been disappointing to say the least. It has failed repeatedly when efforts have been made to condemn Hamas specifically, even though we know that it is understood across the board around the world, the terrorist nature of the threat that Israel faces, no one doubts, if you have a conversation with a diplomat, that Hamas was responsible for the most horrific atrocities on October 7 and since.

And of course, is holding 101 hostages, some of whom are not alive, but those who are in the most brutal conditions. We saw what happened just a few weeks ago, when Israel was preparing to actually liberate six hostages, including one American, American, Israeli, and they were executed before the Israeli soldiers could get to them by Hamas. Everyone knows the culpability of Hamas, and yet there has been a moral failure on the part of the United Nations to condemn Hamas. 

There have been a number of General Assembly and Security Council efforts to raise the issue of the hostages, to raise the issue of Hamas, and they've been deflected. They have not been allowed to move forward. There have been, of course, continual condemnations, as the United Nations has a long history of condemning Israel for its occupation of Palestinian territory, for its treatment of Palestinian civilians. That happens, you know, ritually in the United Nations. 

And, of course, every year in the General Assembly, there are, you know, a dozen or 20 or so resolutions against Israel, but to call out the terrorist organization that tells 1200 people and captured 251 others, men, women, children, grandparents, and has been holding 100+ still in captivity in Gaza. That just isn't quite on the UN's agenda. It's very disappointing. That's more than disappointing. It's outrageous.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You did mention that targeting Iran, or just recognizing that Iran is pulling the strings on all of this with its nuclear ambitions, its advanced missile program, these proxy armies and terror organizations the regime does seem to pose a profound danger to Israel as well as the broader world. But do members of the UN seem to recognize this? And what is AJC pushing them to do about it?

Jason Isaacson:  

There is wide recognition, certainly in the Gulf, but also increasingly in Europe, of the danger. Posed by Iran, not only on the nuclear file, where Iran is inching closer and closer to being a nuclear threshold state, if not an actual nuclear weapon state, but also the Iranian support for Subversion, for terrorism in countries across the region, Iranian support, Iranian regime support for assassination attempts and kidnapping attempts across Europe.

In the United States as well, former Secretary of State of the United States, a former National Security Advisor of the United States, under protection by the US government because of those Iranian threats, and in Europe as well, this is recognized whether countries are prepared to impose Some economic hardship on their own countries because of imposing sanctions on trade with Iran is another question.

It's sometimes been difficult for countries to make that decision. We have been pushing countries to impose further sanctions on trade with Iran, on the missile program that Iran has been pursuing, on Iran's cooperation, collaboration with Russia in Russia's brutal war of aggression in Ukraine, which is really getting the attention, especially of European leaders.

So we have a lot of arguments that we've been deploying in our meetings over the last week and beyond the last week with the leaders around the world, but especially with European leaders to get much tougher in their dealings with Iran, to stop Iran Air from flying into Europe, which is now an action that is moving forward, but other forms of interaction just to make it impossible for the Iranian regime to continue to carry out its aggression in the region, threatening the security of countries in the Gulf.

But of course, threatening Israel in multiple ways, by supporting terrorists who are acting against the Israeli people on seven fronts, we are hoping, and we are working hard through our advocacy in the United States, at the United Nations around the world, with our 15 offices across the globe, to make that case to foreign governments that it is time to call out and to act firmly against Iranian aggression.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I'm so glad you mentioned Russia, because I did want to ask you whether Ukraine is still a priority, whether it's still a priority for AJC, but also whether it's still a priority for the UN it's been more than two years

Jason Isaacson:  

in AJC s meetings on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly. This week, we have repeatedly made the case that the territorial integrity of Ukraine, democracy in Ukraine, and frankly, the territorial integrity and democracy and security of Europe as a whole is at stake in the war that Russia is pursuing, that Vladimir Putin has launched against Ukraine, its neighbor.

The importance of the United States and our allies continuing to supply Ukraine with the means to defend itself. We're not talking about American boots on the ground in Ukraine. We're talking about America doing whatever it can, and it has done a lot to help the people of Ukraine defend themselves against Russian aggression, not only for the good of Ukraine, but frankly, for the security, the safety of Europe, and frankly, of global security. 

If Russia is allowed to continue gobbling up pieces of Ukrainian territory unimpeded, unchallenged by the West, it will continue its rapacious ways, and that is just not acceptable in Europe. It's not acceptable for the security of the United States, for our interests across the world. So it is important that Russia be pushed back. It is important that we stand by Ukraine as they try to liberate themselves from Russian aggression. 

And frankly, it's a signal to other countries that may have territorial ambitions, designs on neighboring states, small, weaker states. You know what we're talking about here. So it's important that the line be drawn, and we stand by that line and continue to supply Ukraine with what it needs to defend itself, and it has actually made some impressive gains. It has still a challenge ahead. Russia is much larger and has many more missiles in its stockpile than Ukraine does, but Ukraine is fighting back, and is actually taking the fight to Russia, which is so important we need to stand by our friends in Ukraine as they beat back Putin's aggression. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So that seems to be a popular sentiment, that it's okay for Ukraine to fight back, and we support that effort. So why do they not support the efforts of Israel to fight back? Is it just geography?

Jason Isaacson:  

Well, Israel has always had a difficult challenge in the United Nations. Of course, the situation with the Palestinians has been a popular cause across the globe, and it's been very difficult for Israel to make the case that it does not want to rule over the Palestinian people. It was put in that position as a result of a war in which it defended itself against aggression in 67 and 73 and ended up occupying land or administering land that had been launching pads for strikes against the people of Israel themselves. 

It is hoping for, searching for, it has signed on to a process that would allow for a political resolution of the status of the Palestinians. Palestinian leadership has been such that it hasn't been able to move forward on any kind of a further settlement of that dispute with Israel. And in the meantime, the public around the world has grown frustrated and of course, has a continuing support for the underdog, less appreciation for the situation that Israel finds itself in. And that's just a fact of life that we've been we've been wrestling with for too long. 

At the same time, there is an appreciation of the contributions that Israel has made and continues to make to technological advancement, public health, a variety of fields in which, certainly the countries in the region, but countries beyond the region, can benefit from further interaction with Israel. We've seen the growth of the relationship between Israel and India, the growth of relationship between India and other states in the developing world, and we're hoping that at a certain point, public opinion will follow the trend that is so evident in our contacts with governments around the world.

In many ways, what we've seen is an action in which Israel is the target, but the real target is the West. The real target is the United States, and Israel is an ally of the United States as the one democracy in the Middle East, closely connected to the United States, has been in many ways, the focal point for antagonism toward the west, and it puts Israel in a unique position.

Sort of a positive position, in some ways, in that there's an affiliation and association of Israel with the United States, which is of benefit to countries in the region that want their own strategic partnership with the United States, that want to benefit from Israel's access to the west, technologically, in education, in public health, and a whole range of sectors. But for other parts of the world, where it's easy to blame the West for their own economic situation or political situation, it's very easy to link the United States with Israel, and therefore to hold Israel somewhat to a different, harsher standard. 

That's part of what's going on. Part of it is identification with the Palestinian cause, which has been very popular on the street, fueled in the Arab world by Al Jazeera and other media, but also very conveniently used over the generations by Arab governments to deflect from their own issues of governance in their own countries and elsewhere in the world, it's been a rallying cry for a range of despots and dictators and monarchs who have wanted to again, distract their countries from the real issues that they face, and target this western outpost in the eastern Mediterranean.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Speaking of strategic partnerships, is the UN General Assembly the right forum to pursue discussions of expanding the Abraham Accords, and is this the right time, even if it is the right forum? 

Jason Isaacson:  

Well, in the General Assembly of the United Nations, no, because there is an automatic majority. And we just saw this on display just a week or so ago when the UN General Assembly adopted a one sided anti Israel resolution overwhelmingly by something like 50% more votes against Israel than occurred the last time a couple of years ago that there was a resolution regarding Israel the General Assembly a similar resolution. So no, not in the General Assembly itself, not in the UN system itself, but among individual countries, Israel is still quite popular at elite levels of many countries, and AJC has worked, I should say, tirelessly for decades, to open doors for Israel.

Countries around the world, not just in the Arab world, but in the developing world and elsewhere. We continue to do so, and we continue to find great receptivity to the argument that there is much to be gained by a relationship with Israel. Maybe starting out quietly, but benefiting the people of your country. Prime minister, Foreign Minister, Mr. President, Madam President, these are arguments that we are making constantly, and we're seeing the openings of trade relations, of new business opportunities, investments, exchanges, people coming to Israel to learn about how they can benefit their own societies by a different kind of a partnership with counterparts in Israel. AJC has been part of that action for a long time.

We continue to do so through our Center for a New Middle East, which was announced by AJC CEO Ted Deutch in June. We are expanding our efforts, especially across the Gulf and North Africa, to introduce societies, civil sector leaders, business people and governments, to the benefits that would accrue to them, to their societies through the embrace of this new Middle East, which has begun frankly with the Abraham Accords in 2020 and we are hopeful that the coming years will bring us greater success as well, but not just in that part of the world.

Other countries, as we have seen through the advent of I2U2 and IMEC, which were efforts to bring India into more interaction with Israel and with Europe, this corridor from India to the. Middle East to Europe and Israel in cooperation with India and the United States and the United Arab Emirates. I2U2, all of these efforts are efforts to expand the circle of Arab Israeli peace, to expand the circle of Israel's interaction with for the benefit of those countries, countries around the world. And we're seeing great success there. We continue to work hard to broaden that success.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Jason, thank you so much for shedding light on what you've been up to this week on the sidelines.

Jason Isaacson:  

Always a pleasure, Manya, thank you.

Delve into the unsettling rise of antisemitism on American college campuses, focusing on alarming incidents at Cornell University and Columbia University. Our guests, Molly Goldstein and Elliot Sadoff, both members of AJC's Campus Global Board, share their experiences of Jewish students being targeted in the classroom, physically attacked while raising awareness about kidnapped babies in Gaza, and facing death threats for merely speaking Hebrew.

Join us as Molly and Elliott share their perspectives on this surge of antisemitism following the October 7th Hamas attacks, and the solidarity and Jewish pride they are seeing on campus.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Molly Goldstein and Elliot Sadoff

Show Notes:

Listen – People of the Pod on the Israel-Hamas War:

• Jewish U.S. Military Veterans’ Message to IDF Soldiers Fighting Hamas: “We’re With You”

• What Would You Do If Your Son Was Kidnapped by Hamas?

• Renana Gomeh’s Sons Were Taken Hostage by Hamas: What She Needs You to Do to Bring Them Home Now

• What Biden’s Wartime Visit to Israel Signals to Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah

• Mai Gutman Was Supposed to Be at the Music Festival: IDF Lone Soldier Recounts Harrowing Week

• Responding to Hamas Terror: IsraAID CEO on How You Can Help Israelis Right Now

Learn:

• What is Known About Israeli Hostages Taken by Hamas

• 7 Ways Hamas Exploits Palestinian Civilians in Gaza

• How much do you know about Hamas? Try to ace our quiz and expose the truth about the terror group today.

• AJC Campus Library

• AJC Campus Global Board

Donate:

• AJC.org/SupportIsrael

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Transcript of Interview with Molly Goldstein and Elliot Sadoff:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Throughout her studies at Cornell University, junior Molly Goldstein has become passionate about the intersection of international relations, human rights and conflict resolution. She joined AJC's Campus global board last year to develop her Jewish advocacy skills on and off campus. But nothing could have prepared her for what has unfolded this year on Cornell's campus, where nearly a fourth of the students are Jewish. An arrest has been made after a number of posts on an online discussion board threatened extreme violence and death to Jews on campus, specifically identifying the address of Cornell's kosher dining hall. 

Likewise, Elliot Sadoff also joined AJC's Campus global board last year. He is a dual degree student at Tel Aviv University and Columbia University, where an Israeli student was physically attacked while hanging posters of kidnapped babies trapped in Gaza. And Jewish students have received death threats and been spat upon for speaking Hebrew. Molly and Elliot are with us now to discuss what they've witnessed as antisemitism related to the Israel Hamas war has emerged at an alarming rate on a number of American college campuses across the country. Elliot, Molly, welcome to People of the Pod.

Molly Goldstein:  

Thank you for having us. 

Elliot Sadoff:  

Yeah, thank you.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So I first have to ask, how are you both doing? And how are you coping with the intensity of all of this?

Elliot Sadoff:  

I mean, I think you can ask anyone how they're doing these days, and it's hard to answer. But definitely holding in there. I've been very lucky the past few weeks because of the program I'm in where I have a lot of students with me who are studying at Tel Aviv University. So we've really formed a tight knit community that's able to support each other throughout these times. With everything going on on campus and around the world. It's a very good support system to have that I don't think a lot of students do. It's not easy to go to class and be looking around you thinking what's going to happen, what are people going to say, what does this professor think? But to have a support system like that is very helpful. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Molly, how about you?

Molly Goldstein:  

Over the past month, it's definitely progressed to feeling more and more afraid to be a Jew on campus. But something that doesn't make it to the media, I believe the media likes to portray, you know, all the horrible things that are happening on campus, but the Jewish community at Cornell has really come together, in one of the most beautiful ways I have ever seen during my time at Cornell. We've had the Shabbat dinners with filling capacity of the kosher dining hall. We've had, you know, Jews from Monsey coming and bringing us food for a barbecue for 200 people. We had never met them before in our entire lives. And they just decided to come up and do this wonderful, wonderful, good deed for us. And there's nothing more I could have asked to be proud of as a Jew. And I hope that Jews on campus know that, although it's scary, we will get through this time. And we should be proud and continue to be Jewish.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

That's really comforting to hear. And I'm sure your parents find that really comforting to hear, especially as they watch the news and wonder how their children are doing. What are you hearing from them? How are they doing?

Molly Goldstein:  

Yeah, parents are definitely more scared than I have ever seen them before. I mean, I had people's parents coming up to get their kids and take them home. People's parents like requesting that we have to sue the University and we have to get these kids off campus and we have to take really harsh actions. And it's because they're scared, they don't know what to do. They're far away from their kids. And, you know, it's up to us to make sure that their parents know that we'll be safe and, and for them to know that everything that needs to be done is getting done for Jewish students.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Elliot, anything to add to that?

Elliot Sadoff:  

Yeah, I mean, I can just echo what Molly was saying about kind of uniting around this and being proud of, like being Jewish and rallying around the community and that my parents are scared, a lot of parents are scared. But there's also been a lot of people working together to change that environment, to change the narrative to to help students be proud of who they are. I don't know if you've seen recently there's a large Facebook group, Mothers Against College Antisemitism, which I think now is hundreds of 1000s of people. I could be mistaken there. But it shows that there are people who care about us, there are people who care about protecting their identity and supporting students and I think that's really meaningful. That's very helpful to see on campus.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Molly, can you walk our listeners through what has happened at Cornell? I mean, how did you first hear about the threats that I mentioned in the introduction? And what precautions did you and other students take?

Molly Goldstein:  

Yeah, absolutely. So I was sitting in my room actually in the Center for Jewish Living, which was the place that was threatened by a bomb threat, as well as it's right next door to the kosher dining hall, which the student threatened to shoot up. And I was sitting, you know, doing homework in my room, and all of a sudden, there's a Cornellians for Israel group chat that now has 1000s of people in it. It's progressed over the month since the war has started. And we just get a link from one of the students that found it, and said, like, look, what we have posted online, and all of a sudden, all the threats started coming in. My immediate reaction was genuine fear. I'm sitting in the building, I did not know what was going to happen to me or my fellow community members. And pretty quickly, we got Cornell Police Department on the case, we got the FBI, Homeland Security, Ithaca police and New York State Police, everybody showed up and was at the dining hall and kosher spaces. And that night, the President of the University and vice president of the university came to our house, to see how we were doing and make sure that we know they're doing everything they can to ensure our safety. 

And, you know, they would not have come if they really thought their lives were in danger. But it was scary. I had students, you know, weren't sleeping in the house that night. They found other places to go, whether that was other friends who had apartments or relatives, family, friends in Ithaca. And as the day went on, we had New York Governor Kathy Hochol came the next morning, the next morning, within just 12 hours was at our doorstep, talking to us, ensuring that New York State was going to do everything they can to condemn antisemitism to ensure our safety for not just Jewish students at Cornell, but Jewish students at all New York State campuses, which includes Columbia, and you know, CUNY schools, which are having a really difficult time with anti-Zionism and antisemitism. And as time went on, we were getting, you know, news media coverage. And we never went on lockdown. But we were doing everything we could to keep people safe.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Did you feel that the university was doing enough to respond? It sounds like people from across the state were doing enough, or doing a lot. But was the university doing enough in your opinion?

Molly Goldstein:  

In my opinion, yes. I think the fact that the President and the Vice President came immediately to make sure we're doing okay, they released a statement that night, and the next day they were updating their social media with everything that they were doing. And they just released actually that they are changing their antisemitism in their DEI training, so that it's more prevalent and that education can be better on that front. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Eliott, can you walk our listeners through the atmosphere at Columbia, I know a student was attacked, but there have also been smaller acts of aggression. I won't say microaggressions because there's nothing micro about a swastika on a wall. But can you walk us through the general atmosphere there?

Elliot Sadoff:  

Yeah, so I think throughout the past month, the atmosphere on campus at Columbia has generally felt unsafe for Jewish students. Obviously, there were the incidents where the physical safety of students was was under threat where the Israeli student was attacked for putting up posters of those that were kidnapped, but also reports of people yelling on campus, f the Jews or people being spit on and I think either one or two now swastikas being drawn on campus. But it just kind of fits into the broader rhetoric on campus. There seems to be the downplaying of anti semitism and anti Zionism and in class on campus, Jewish students aren't feeling safe. They aren't feeling welcomed by the professors, by their peers, by people in New York City. And the rhetoric for me from what I've seen and what my friends have seen from what I'm hearing from the pro Israel groups is that it seems the real effect and a real threat, antisemitism is being downplayed. There's an anonymous app that, obviously, it's an online platform. I think a lot of schools are dealing with this, where students sign up, can post whatever they want without consequences. 

And for the past few weeks, it's been riddled with antisemitism. There seems to be no consequences for anyone. People are saying again, like F the Jews, Israel should be demolished. Lives of Israelis don't matter. And there's an anti semitic incident someone posted and all the comments are saying, This is not real. It's over blasted. This isn't a real threat to Jewish students. And that I think that doesn't that doesn't help anyone. It doesn't help the Palestinian cause to do this. It doesn't help the Israeli cause to do this. It's just it's making everyone feel unsafe.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

What is this app that you mentioned, where there is no accountability? 

Elliot Sadoff:  

So the apps called Sidechat, but I think other campuses have different ones-Sidechat, YikYak, some other ones where you have to log in with your student university email to verify that your student at Columbia, or then you get access to a Columbia on the message board where there's posting, you can upvote or downvote, you can comment, post images. And this entire month, the app just every day, you can't scroll through it. 75% of the posts are completely antisemitic, saying Jews don't have a right to live, Jewscan't do this, that, downplaying antisemitism, minimizing it saying it's not happening, saying Jewish lives don't matter. And these things have been brought up, from my understanding, this has been brought up to the university. And obviously, it's hard for them to control. We want everyone to be able to have free speech and speak their mind. But it seems that there's a line that's been crossed here, and Jewish students feel unsafe because of this, and it continues to this day, even this morning.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And who runs this app? It's not a university run app. It's a company, right?

Elliot Sadoff:  

It's a company, but they advertise at the club fair, they're on campus, they have tables, you need your university email to log in. So it seems there should be some way to provide accountability. And obviously, it's not an official university platform. But it's an atmosphere that's not safe for Jewish students. That's part of what's going on on campus.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You said that there is a feeling of danger in the classroom that you have. Have you personally encountered hostility in the classroom?

Elliot Sadoff:  

In a lot of my classes, it's that I don't want to spark hostility. And I don't want to say what my thoughts are, I don't want to say that I might feel unsafe as a Jewish student, I don't want to tell people that I went to school in Tel Aviv. And that's the program that I'm part of. 

I mean, if I see some of my professors that I've had in the past signing a petition that says Hamas’ actions are legitimate military action, how am I supposed to feel safe on campus? My professors are signing this, ones that I've had, they know who I am, I've had conversations with them. And this is what they're signing. And that just adds into the fact that in some of my other classes, people are kind of using free speech as a guise to promote antisemitism and that one professor at Columbia described awe and joy at Hamas’ attack on Israel. And this is a pretty well known case that this professor has been espousing these ideas. And in my class, people are saying, this is free speech. You can't criticize him, you can't. You can't deny that you can't take action against him when there's a difference. It's clearly adding to a rhetorical atmosphere that's making Jewish students feel unsafe.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And what about you, Molly? Has there been any hostility in classrooms at Cornell that you've, you've come across?

Molly Goldstein:  

There are many students who have been coming out and reporting professors and other students in their classes, who are spewing anti-Israel, anti-Zionist views. And it's really toeing the line between anti-Zionism and real antisemitism. And it's scary. I mean, I know a student who has family who's in the IDF right now fighting in Gaza, and one of their cousin's just was killed and they tried to get accommodations from the professor and they weren't accommodating. There's another class on you know, colonialism and a writing seminar for first year students. So this is exactly what they're going to introduce to the university. And when they were first asked about their opinions on the Israeli Palestinian conflict, they said, you know, we feel bad for everybody, like innocent lives, nobody should be killed. This is not right. And the professor's reaction was to then say all the horrible things that Israel is doing, and tried to convince the class that they should be on the side of the Palestinians. And then they ask the question again, and almost nobody wants to talk because they were scared of disagreeing with the professor, or they were confused. And it's real propaganda that's being pushed through the university and people aren't able, people aren't able to make the distinctions and be able to freely express their opinions, their problems or opinions or their pro Jewish opinions for that matter.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Has there been any kind of constructive dialogue either facilitated by faculty by students? Has there been any evidence that people are willing to understand other points of view or embrace the complexities of the conflict.

Molly Goldstein:  

So the only experience I've had with true constructive dialogue was at the beginning, I'm like October 10, or 11th, or something like that. There was a student assembly meeting where SJP on campus, I proposed a resolution to condemn Cornell University for not speaking out for the Palestinian people. Their statement had only mentioned: Hamas is a terrorist organization and didn't say anything about the innocent Palestinian lives that are being lost. And in addition to that resolution, it was you should divest from Israel, you should deem it an occupied apartheid state. And a whole bunch of SJP people and a whole bunch of pro Israel, people came to the student assembly meeting. 

And after everyone showed their views, the person who had originally proposed the resolution, wanted to amend it. And they said, You know what, I can understand why this was very harmful. Let's try to change and have constructive dialogue. And at the end, we all came together. And we were all talking about our views and our notions. And that was probably the last time that there was constructive dialogue on campus. Unfortunately, that was like three weeks ago. Since then, you know, the university has had panels and other talks led by professors, but the academics are not in favor of Israel. They do not like to show both sides of the narrative. And it's always from an anti-Israel voice. And it's scary and hard to see.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Elliot, how about constructive dialogue on Columbia's campus–any at all?

Elliot Sadoff:  

I know that the School of International and Public Affairs has held a few meetings, but it hasn't been student dialogue at all. It's just been webinars from what I understand. And since a month ago, October 7, I haven't seen anything with students that's been constructive, that's been meaningful. And I think that's really the issue that I see with that, and I think a lot of other Jewish students do with that is that it doesn't help us it doesn't help anyone that there's no constructive dialogue. If someone wants to sit down with me and discuss the Israeli Palestinian conflict, I'm happy to do so. I know that there's a lot to discuss. But I haven't seen any of that. All I've seen as Israel's bad. Israel's done this. No actual discussion, and how does that help anyone? I can't sit here and, and feel safe and feel safe to discuss this. If people won't condemn Hamas. People will say: the resistance lives, I support them, they're not a terrorist organization, they didn't behead babies. Then there's no room for discussion.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You know, I keep using the word constructive. But I guess really, another word is compassionate. I mean, has there been compassionate dialogue? And I think one, they are one in the same in this situation. Would you characterize any of the conversations you've had with individual students as leaning toward compassionate, even if not really all that constructive?

Elliot Sadoff:  

Personally, I've not. And I think that's what's so hurtful is that I would love to have a compassionate conversation. Recognize that right now, both Israelis and Palestinians are suffering. It's the sad truth. It's the reality. But if you can't acknowledge that, if you can't recognize that Israelis are suffering, too. There's no room for compassion.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So AJC has developed an action plan for confronting campus antisemitism. It's a toolkit for students. It closely follows the US national strategy to counter antisemitism that was unveiled by the White House in May. The final step in that toolkit is recruiting and forming a task force to address antisemitism on campuses. Do you see that happening at Cornell or Columbia?

Elliot Sadoff:  

Fortunately, Columbia, about a week and a half ago, announced that they're launching an Antisemitism Taskforce, which is welcomed, I'm very happy that you're doing it. It's something that is necessary to protect Jewish students and to protect everyone on campus. Personally, though, it is a little upsetting that it took this to happen for there to be an Antisemitism Task Force as antisemitism is not a new problem. This anti-Israel, anti-Jewish sentiment is not a new problem on campus or in the world. And the fact that it's being launched, investigated and addressed as a result of a lot of bad stuff happening as opposed to proactively protecting students on campus is a little upsetting. Obviously, it's a welcome step, it's a step in the right direction. But I don't know if I feel any safer now than I did last week before it was announced.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

College is hard enough. And so I'm really impressed that both of you joined us, that both of you are confronting this problem and this challenge and doing so with such bravery and such poise. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences with us and we're gonna be rooting for you and fighting for you every step of the way.

Molly Goldstein:  

Thank you so much. 

Elliot Sadoff:  

Thank you for having us.

This week, guest host Dana Steiner, director of AJC ACCESS Global, American Jewish Committee's young professional division, sat down with Jake Cohen, food writer and author of New York Times bestseller Jew-ish: A Cookbook: Reinvented Recipes from a Modern Mensch, to discuss the convergence between food and Judaism, the antisemitism he has faced throughout his career, and how sharing recipes and their connected stories from across the Jewish world is his form of advocacy.

Then, Manya Brachear Pashman, Dana Steiner, and Dan Pashman, host of The Sporkful podcast and who also spoke to Jake Cohen this week, dig into their Rosh Hashanah menus.

_____

Episode Lineup:

(0:40) Jake Cohen

(20:21) Manya Brachear Pashman, Dana Steiner, and Dan Pashman

____

Show notes:

The State of Jewish Life on College Campuses: last week’s episode with University of Michigan’s Tilly Shemer and American Jewish University’s Dr. Jeffery Herbst

The Rice Cooker That Changed Jake Cohen’s Life: The Sporkful episode with Jake Cohen, hosted by Dan Pashman

The Abraham Accords marked a significant foreign policy achievement for President Donald Trump at the end of his first term in 2020. What’s next for the Abraham Accords under a new Trump administration? 

Joining us is Rob Greenway, Director of the Allison Center for National Security at the Heritage Foundation and former senior director for Middle Eastern and North African Affairs on the National Security Council, to discuss the opportunities and challenges President Trump will face in the Middle East. Guest hosted by Benjy Rogers, AJC’s Director for Middle East and North Africa Initiatives, Greenway draws on his firsthand experience with the Abraham Accords to explore how these agreements can be expanded and how security and economic cooperation between Israel and its neighbors can be strengthened.

Resources:

• AJC Experts Assess the Global Impact of Trump’s Election

• What President-Elect Trump’s Nominees Mean for Israel, Antisemitism, and More

• The Abraham Accords, Explained

Listen – AJC Podcasts:

• The Forgotten Exodus: with Hen Mazzig, Einat Admony, and more.

• People of the Pod: 

• Honoring Israel’s Lone Soldiers This Thanksgiving: Celebrating Service and Sacrifice Away from Home

• The ICC Issues Arrest Warrants: What You Need to Know

• What President-Elect Trump’s Nominees Mean for Israel, Antisemitism, and More

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

__

Transcript of Conversation with Rob Greenway:

Manya Brachear Pashman:

The landmark achievement of the first Trump Administration was President Trump’s ability to successfully broker peace treaties between Israel and the Arab countries of the UAE, Bahrain, and Morocco. While much has changed since the September 2020 signing of the Abraham Accords, there are high hopes that a second Trump Administration will once again focus on brokering Arab-Israeli peace. This week, my colleague Benjy Rogers, AJC’s Director for Middle East and North Africa Initiatives, invited an expert from the first Trump administration to share his insights on what to expect. Benjy, the mic is yours.   

Benjamin Rogers:  

What can we expect from the incoming Trump administration, particularly when it comes to the committee's policy and the future of the Abraham Accords and regional integration? To help us break it all down, we're joined by someone who's been at the center of these historic developments, Rob Greenway. 

Rob is the director of the Allison Center for National Security at the Heritage Foundation, where he formulates policy to defend American freedom and prosperity. Rob has first hand experience with the Abraham Accords, having served as Deputy Assistant to the President and senior director of the National Security Council's Middle Eastern and North African Affairs Directorate during the first Trump administration. 

Rob has more than 30 years in public service, including as President and Executive Director of the Abraham Accords Peace Institute, advocating for the expansion of the agreements he helped craft. Rob has also served as Senior Intelligence Officer at the Defense Intelligence Agency, and is a decorated combat veteran within the US Army Special Forces. 

Rob, welcome to People of the Pod. We are honored to have you here.

Rob Greenway:  

It's my great pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Benjamin Rogers:  

Let's jump right into it. Much has changed in the Middle East since the last Trump administration, while the hope of the Abraham Accords continued into the Biden administration, the horrors of October 7 in its aftermath have transformed the region. 

How do you think the next Trump administration will address the ongoing conflicts in the Middle East, and do you see renewed hope for continuing to deepen and expand the Abraham Accords?

Rob Greenway:  

It's a great question. I'll start in reverse order, because that's the optimistic part, right? The hope in all of the relatively dark circumstances and the escalation of the conflict that’s really accelerated, but didn't begin in October the seventh, but it certainly accelerated dramatically. I certainly judge that there is hope. And there's hope because the shared interest between Israel and its neighboring countries is, in fact, very strong. 

And that the US fundamentally, and certainly under a Trump administration, I think, will reprioritize efforts to normalize Israel's relations with its neighbors, to confront shared adversaries, which obviously is Iran, its surrogates and proxies, including Hamas and Hezbollah. But also because the economic potential has to be unlocked through integration of Israel and its neighbors and the countries within the region. 

They all know this, and they all recognize the intrinsic importance of it, so both for security purposes and for economic reasons, the normalization process will be resumed, certainly under a Trump administration as a matter of policy. It is, in many ways, the solution to the problems we're seeing in the region right now.

Benjamin Rogers:  

Say a little bit more about that, Rob, if you would, what particular solutions do you think can come as a result of expansion of Abraham Accords, regional integration?

Rob Greenway:  

Sure. On the one hand, the practical side of it is Israel's defense is better done working with and through with other partners, not just the United States, but its neighbors, so the extent to which cooperation could be expanded, they can jointly meet the threat from Iran, and will, in fact, have to do so. 

Iran, unfortunately, has been fed too long by appeasement the last four years. It's flush with cash. It's at nuclear threshold. The only way for Israel to effectively defend itself is more often than not, working with like-minded partners, and certainly the United States. Together, I think it's easier to provide a defense.

Remember the ballistic missile attacks against Israel, which now unfortunately, have happened twice. It took a regional neighborhood response to that in order to effectively detect and intercept the range of missiles and drones and cruise missiles coming from Iran. That's a picture of what the potential is and should be. 

It's also a strong deterrent. When Israel's standing with its partners and allies in the region, it discourages the escalation that Iran is responsible for. And again, the economic potential is also critical, and it's so important that they would protect and defend the relationship, because it's so vital to all of their future potential.

Benjamin Rogers:  

I appreciate what you said on defense, and I think that makes a lot of sense, but I want to drill into a little bit more on the economic side of things, because it's easiest to say, hey, look, there's greater ties, there's greater business. This is a region that, little over 10 years ago, went through the Arab Spring. This is a region that is not all the Gulf. This is a region where there's lots of poverty and there's lots of struggles. A region that is impacted by the daily changes throughout the globe. How does economic cooperation address some of those concerns? Address some of those issues? How does a more integrated Middle East, will it actually make your average person on the streets, life better? How do you get there?

Rob Greenway:  

So first, a couple of points. If you talk to countries in the region. They all share similar concerns. They look a little different, but they have similar concerns. One is the security environment. Again, each of them have a different focus, but they're all concerned about the security environment, largely again, the threat from Iran. 

Second is that they've got a domestic population that, in all too many cases, ultimately will have difficulty finding employment for its large youth population, growing population below the age of 25. They're all very cognizant of this, and they know that the solution is economic integration, regionally and perhaps globally. And so they know that they have a problem. They know that the solution is better integration. It's historically not been the case. Intra-GCC trade has always been less than 15% historically, Europe and Russia are probably still trading more than that now, even though they're at war essentially in Europe, but the GCC has not done so, but they know that they can't sustain it.

Second, how it helps average individuals. The employment opportunities. And look, it's not just integrating the country's economies. The reality is, the strongest economic potential is allowing market markets to be connected between Europe and Asia, through the Middle East. So to move goods and services between Asian and European markets, the Middle East has to be transited. 

If you integrate the countries from a transportation standpoint and from an economic standpoint, the potential becomes vast. That's the real economic promise. Integrating a company's bilateral trade with UAE, with Israel, is absolutely spectacular to watch, but that's the beginning. The end is to better integrate economies and markets globally through which the region is a critical transport link. It can happen. They want it to happen, and I think we can make it happen, and I hope we do. 

Benjamin Rogers:  

That's fascinating. I think it's just such a stark difference in the way we've been approaching the region recently, which is doom and gloom. This is cause for hope. This is a cause for a way forward. 

But October 7, we saw, and you've mentioned this country repeatedly, we saw how spoilers can completely upend this hope. You mentioned a little bit, but can you say a little bit more about how the Trump administration is thinking about countries like the Iranian regime, how the Trump administration will ensure that terror organizations like Hezbollah, like Hamas, will not ever be able to threaten this, this pretty remarkable vision that you're sharing today.

Rob Greenway:  

It's a great question. Maybe the central question. First, we didn't see this threat manifest itself, even though it was there, latent. It didn't just come into creation on October the seventh. Obviously, it existed during the first Trump term, but it never manifested itself this way because it had boundaries. The boundaries come in two ways. First is an absolute, demonstrable commitment to Israel's security, not question, not speculative, not changing or dynamic as it is now and unfortunately, wanting in too many cases, it was ironclad. Everyone in the region knew it, and everyone saw it, and that's an incredibly important part of deterrence. The second and perhaps even more important is denying resources to your adversaries. It sounds fundamental. You shouldn't pay your enemies to attack you, but that's what appeasement is, and that's what's happened in the last four years of the Biden administration. 

You can't give the world's largest state sponsor of terrorism $120 billion of excess revenue and not expect them to engage in terrorism. And so they did. The principal applied the first Trump term will absolutely come back in the second and that's denying them the resources.

And so for us, you know, I watched Hezbollah for decades, and to see them ask for members to donate their organs to raise funds at the end of the maximum economic pressure campaign, by the end of 2020, as a sign of success, in a sense that they were they were deprived and unable to conduct attacks and enter into that risk. I know that that will have a similar result. It's going to take a while to get back to it, but I strongly believe it has to happen, and I believe that it will happen.

Benjamin Rogers:  

Thanks Rob. I want to also dive into what's been front and center on a lot of people's rights now, which is Israeli-Palestinian relations. What do you think the Trump approach will be? And this, to me, is particularly interesting, because, you know, we saw early in the Trump administration, the focus on the deal of the century, focus on peace and prosperity. We saw an initial rejection by the Palestinian Authority, by the PLO to any sort of agreement. 

We know that many in the Israeli government have a range of views, quite strong views. And I would say the population as a whole, any mechanisms of peace while an ongoing war is happening, particularly in the aftermath of October 7 and something that is more challenging than ever to talk about. How do you see the Israeli Palestinian conflict, and how do you see a Trump administration approaching it?

Rob Greenway:  

I believe I've read somewhere. I'm sure you did too. There's nothing new under the sun. And in most cases, there are precedents and examples. Look, for over four decades, people pursued the Israel-Palestine conflict as the central issue in the region, and they made no progress on either front. The region didn't get better, and Israel's relationship with the Palestinians didn't improve, empirically and objectively. 

The approach in the Trump administration was, what are the most pressing threats to our interest in the region's interest, including Israel? The answer is Iran, its surrogates and proxies. And ISIS in 2017 as you recall. And so the premise is, start with the highest order of threat. If you get the sequence wrong, you know you're going to inevitably have adverse consequences. 

You can't paint the kitchen when your house is on fire. It's not a perfect analogy, but the idea is, we have to deal with the most primary threats first, and if you don't deal with Iran as the principal source of instability in the region, you can't make progress on anything else, including this issue. Second, as we heard from, John Kerry's famous remarks in 2016, deeply held belief then, and I fear still now, you cannot make progress on Israel-Arab relations without making progress on the Palestinian file. And he emphasized, you can't. And obviously you can. We proved it in the form of the Abraham Accords, and President Trump led the way. And I think that will come back again.

And that, I think, is the key to success. But everyone I talked to in Israel tells me the same thing, the two state solution is dead after October the seventh. At some point it may resurrect itself. I think at the end of the day, we focus on the primary threat, build a stronger relationship between Israel and its neighbors, and then we can also improve the lives of the Palestinian people in a variety of ways, which the Abraham Accords were designed to do and its members insisted on. 

And second, as you mentioned, the peace to prosperity plan, I think we'll end up leveraging the work done there, the fantastic work that Jared did, just he did with the Abraham Accords, and resurrect that for what needs to happen next in places like Gaza and South Lebanon. And I think that will improve the lives of the Palestinian people. So it's a reverse sequencing, essentially. I think that gets to a different outcome. But if you start with an impossible, intractable problem, everything else becomes difficult.

Benjamin Rogers:  

Fascinating. Saudi Arabia. What do you think can be done? What do you think relations are between the US and Saudi Arabia, between Israel and Saudi Arabia. I know there's been strong comments that have got a lot of attention as of late, but where do you see that relationship going?

Rob Greenway:  

I think the good news is that President Trump's relationship with the kingdom and with Saudi leadership like the region, was exceptional. His first visit as President of the United States on May 17, was to Riyadh and then to Jerusalem, and then to Rome, very deliberately and very intentionally. And the policies he set forth were what we carried as guidance for the four years that followed. And I think it bore fruit. 

That relationship is key, and I think it's going to be restored. It was deeply damaged on a number of fronts under the Biden-Harris administration, I think that damage is going to be undone by a different relationship and approach. And second, look, we've had decades, generations of cooperation with Saudi Arabia, as we have with Israel, and that puts President Trump in a unique position to be able to broker the inevitable peace between the two. 

But I think it's something that, like most negotiations, and certainly in the Middle East, we should give space for the new administration to do this privately and not have a public negotiation, because all that's going to do is complicated for all parties, and it'll make the end objective more difficult. I think it'll happen. I think it needs to happen. 

Last thing I'll say is, it isn't as much about security, although that's certainly a critical part of it. It's also, again, about managing global markets between the United States and Saudi Arabia, because this is what, obviously, for our purposes and for the region's purposes, we've got to be able to do. As long as China is dependent upon Middle Eastern oil and gas, we've got to be able to exercise some control over it. And we can't let Russia, as an exporter and our partners and allies in the region, manage global exports to China. 

So this isn't limited to the region itself. Our relationship with Riyadh is vital. It is strategic. It is necessary. It helped us prevail in the Cold War against the Soviet Union. It'll be absolutely vital in competition with China and with Russia. So it's critical on a number of fronts. President Trump instinctively understands this better than I think anyone, and I think he's in a unique position to close the real deal of the century.

Benjamin Rogers:  

Staying on this topic, for a little bit, where else, what other countries in the Middle East do you think are going to be of a particular focus to the incoming Trump administration?

Rob Greenway:  

So not surprisingly, Riyadh would unlikely be the only country to join the Accords, not followed by others. So I could think of most other countries in the Gulf would be good candidates. But I also think it's not limited to the region, right? There are a number of other Muslim majority countries that are not necessarily Arab, that reside outside the region that would be enormously beneficial from an economic standpoint and from a diplomatic standpoint. And we had a number of conversations with many countries that fall into this category. 

So there's, I think, a new vista that opens with the successful conclusion of getting the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia to establish normalized diplomatic relations. And again, I think if you confront Iran, this becomes possible. If you don't confront Iran, it's virtually impossible.

Benjamin Rogers:  

I want to zoom out, but before I do, you have, you have explained how you've explained in detail, where the Trump administration may go. You've expressed some criticism of the Biden administration. Is there anything related to Middle East policy that the Biden administration pursued? 

Things like the Negev Forum, things like the concept of I2U2, of IMEC, things where do you think those are actually helpful mechanisms that may continue into a Trump administration? Or do you think this is essentially going to be a return to priorities that were started in the first Trump administration?

Rob Greenway:  

I think it's going to be more of the latter than the former. Negev ultimately was taking the Abraham Accords and introducing it into a multilateral fora. But the attempt, I think, was ultimately not successful, not because of October the seventh, but because one they made it a diplomatic conference, which we deliberately didn't do with the Abraham Accords. We were more focused on getting the businessmen together and the parts of the government that dealt with trade and concrete relationships, because that's what they wanted. 

So we didn't try and impose a forum on them. We tried to allow it to grow organically in the areas where they were interested, and, frankly, where you could measure the progress. I mean, as you know, having a diplomatic conference is not a difficult thing to do. Having one with an outcome might be a bit of a challenge. So we were inclined to approach it from an economic perspective. Ultimately, we'd like to see it get to the security domain. I think there is a difference. But again, it's an extension of the Accords that were built during the Trump administration.

They also intended to insert the Palestinian issue into the equation, and they worked to get it introduced into the forum. I don't know the wisdom behind it, and ultimately, I think it became an impediment, but I will say that ultimately, they did come to the conclusion the Abraham Accords was a good thing. The Abraham Accords was beneficial to the region, and the region wanted to see the US invested in it. 

Unfortunately, I think it came too late, and it was overshadowed by the intrinsic policy contradiction of feeding Iran and attempting to deal with the consequences of it. So you can't feed the greatest threat to instability in the region and attempt to work together towards normalization at the same time, the two objectives are in complete opposition to one another. And so they were working across purposes, and the region saw it, and I think they were unable to get progress because of it. 

Sudan is probably the only accord member country that unfortunately has collapsed into virtual civil war, which was again a very tragic and unnecessary result of bad policy choice. And it can and it must be reversed. And I trust the Trump second Trump administration would make that a priority as well.

Benjamin Rogers:  

I'm happy to hear that, because that's an area that we have focused on, and I think absolutely heartbreaking to see what's unfolding in Sudan right now. 

I'd be remiss if I didn't make a plug for AJC Center for a New Middle East, which is something our CEO Ted Deutch announced in June, and essentially our concept is, let's take the decades of trust that AJC has cultivated over the last 70+ years. Let's take the network that we have in places like Europe, in the Middle East, with our office in Abu Dhabi and in Jerusalem. We have offices across Asia. We've got offices in Africa. 

How can we use that architecture to be a helpful model in bringing people together? So I wanted to ask you, as someone with so much experience on this, what role do you see for civil society organizations in being able to help cultivate, reinvigorate, bring together more hope to a region that is really reeling?

Rob Greenway:  

Having come from the Abraham Accords Peace Institute, where this was our purpose, and having worked with your offices and your organization and many others, I'm convinced that there is an absolute necessity for private organizations to help contribute to and to ensure that there's continuity and successes are sustained. Especially in the people to people contact, but areas like education, in sports and athletics, enormous potential. And it will require private organizations. This is one of many areas where government doesn't do it well. So I think government has opened a door. It can open others. 

Private organizations ultimately are going to determine success and failure, and that includes, of course, businesses. So I think it's absolutely essential, and I think that organizations like AJC and others are uniquely positioned to be able to translate the potential into concrete success in a number of different fronts that either government can't do or it's just not well equipped to do. 

So 100% agree, and in fact, again, this is too, where more people external to the region can really make a contribution, and small ways can have a massive impact. And we had the luxury of being able to work on a number. And we saw the fruits of that, and I think we'll continue to see. Some of them take decades to materialize, but it's worth it.

Benjamin Rogers:  

Amazing. Thanks, Rob. So I promised I would zoom out a little bit, because I know you're not only an expert in the Middle East, but look at the whole globe. Outside of the Middle East, where do you think when it comes to foreign affairs, the Trump administration will be focused?  How will it address issues like Russia, Ukraine? How will it address issues like China? 

Rob Greenway:  

So if you just consider the staggering array of security challenges that the new Trump administration is going to inherit and confront, it can be overwhelming. For two reasons. First, because it's happening on virtually every continent, right, in every cardinal direction you look, there’s not just a crisis, but in many cases, a conflict that is unprecedented or hasn't been seen at this level in a generation. First land war in Europe since the Second World War, a Middle East that hasn't been this unstable since, I think at least 1979, perhaps earlier. These are generational challenges. And I could add to that, of course, China in both the first second island chains and the potential threat against Taiwan. Massive challenges to the international order and the US vital national security interests. 

Number two, they're not just connected in a temporal space. Yes, unfortunately, Russia, China, Iran, North Korea, are working together in unprecedented ways. The provision of ballistic missiles and drones from Iran, nuclear technology going in the other direction. All horrible. But the fact that they are connected in ways that are impossible to segregate, so you can't solve one problem while you're waiting to solve the other two. Because the solution to each is integrated to the problem in the other. 

And energy, as I mentioned already, is just one of those ways, and perhaps one of the most important. 

So if you want to restore maximum economic pressure against Iran–and we have to–you're going to be taking them gradually off the international market. Without disrupting prices in everyone's economies, including ours, you've got to compensate for it. There are ways to do it, but Russia is an exporter too, and China is a consumer. So you think about the sequencing behind how to confront these challenges, it is going to be absolutely one of the most complex I think any presidential administration has faced. And again, economic insecurity is integral. And I say that too, because the Trump administration thankfully at the top, with the President himself and many of his trusted advisors and cabinet officials come from a business background, and they understand the economics, because that's the world in which they grew up in. As well as the security domain. 

And I think they're uniquely configured to be able to solve this. And they have the experience of working in these regions. A daunting series of challenges. And I think all of us watching this progress need to give them time and patience, because the scope of these challenges are massive. And I didn't mention, you know, the interior crisis at the border and the millions of illegal immigrants, tens of thousands of which are terrorists or known criminals. And that just adds to the complexity, and also can't be addressed in isolation. So massive challenges, all of them connected, security and economic standpoint, and it's going to take time, but this team and the president, I think, are uniquely postured to be able to do it.

Benjamin Rogers:  

Rob, I really want to thank you for everything today. Before we conclude, any final thoughts?

Rob Greenway:  

So I'd like to end again on a positive note, because it's easy to get distracted with the crises. The solution to these problems are what make them possible. Seeing the potential is what gives you the drive, the resolve, to fix it, and it also makes it possible. So if there wasn't a good solution to these problems, they would persist. 

The reality is that integrating the Middle East and Israel and its neighbors and connecting global markets is key to solving these problems. It's also what's going to prevent it from happening again. If we can lean into it and do it successfully and follow through on what was started, we'll be able to see not only a cessation of these problems, we'll be able to see a real improvement in regional quality of life, and hopefully peace and prosperity will again dominate, rather than conflict and chaos. 

Benjamin Rogers:  

Alright Rob, thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate it.

Rob Greenway:  

My great pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Jacob Magid, U.S. Bureau Chief for the Times of Israel, provides his take on Israel's efforts to destroy Hamas in Gaza, the U.S-Israel relations, the anti-Israel campus protests, the Israeli public’s reaction to rising antisemitism abroad, and the challenges he has faced as a journalist since October 7. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Jacob Magid

Show Notes:

Learn more:

• Everything You Need to Know About Rafah, Its Importance to Hamas, and Protecting Its Civilian Population

Listen to AJC’s People of the Pod:

• What Does it Mean to be a Jewish American Hero? A Jewish American Heritage Month Conversation with AJC CEO Ted Deutch

• The Chaos at Columbia: What It’s Like to be Jewish on Campus Right Now

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Episode Transcript:

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

How important is American support for Israel? What message is the protest movement on American college campuses sending to Israel? Jacob Magid: is the U.S. Bureau Chief for The Times of Israel. Our colleagues in Washington D.C. hosted him this week in front of a live audience of about 200 guests. But we had some questions of our own and he joins us now. Jacob, welcome to People of the Pod. 

Jacob Magid: 

Hey there, thanks for having me.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

So there have been a lot of reports in the media lately about a strain in US-Israel relations, especially after Biden's announcement of a delay in the transfer of heavy munitions and concerns over Israel’s plans in Rafah. Yet this week, Biden announced that it green-lit the transfer of over $1 billion in new arms for Israel, seemingly quelling any concerns about this rift. But what is your take on the situation? Is there a rift between President Biden and Prime Minister Netanyahu?

Jacob Magid: 

It's interesting, because I think in the weeks and months immediately after October 7, support for President Joe Biden was at record highs. As at the same time, support for Donald Trump was plummeting, given the comments that he was making, shortly after October 7, kind of mocking Israel for not being able to foresee what what occurred on the seventh, as opposed to Biden who made this trip right after October 7, sent those aircrafts to the eastern Mediterranean, and warned Israel's adversaries not to get involved in the attack. I think there was real appreciation for what Joe Biden was doing. And I think it's amazing how much seven months can do because we've seen that support for President Biden completely, I'd say, plummet. 

There was a recent poll taken before this threat. But you can only imagine that it's only going to go down further, showing that now. Whereas earlier in the war, a plurality of Israelis supported President Biden over Trump in another election. Now those numbers have switched back, I think Israelis still do remember the steps Donald Trump took to re-open the Embassy in Jerusalem, to the Abraham Accords, the Golan Heights, all these different steps that he took when he was president. And I think that's more on their minds. And then they compare it to President Biden, they couldn't imagine President Trump taking those kinds of steps that he has taken, a public threat to withhold weapons that's a little bit harder for them to picture. And it's just more fresh on the minds of many Israelis when they're thinking about this current president. 

But I would note that it's not really clear what President Trump would do in this kind of scenario. I think there are a lot of US officials and Israeli officials I’ve spoken with who say that at least Prime Minister Netanyahu might prefer President Biden to President Trump because he's seen as someone who's more predictable, in regards with his ties with Israel, that while things have gotten bad, Netanyahu can also always frame himself as trying to stand up to the Americans. 

Whereas you'd have a much harder time doing that to Trump because I think he's a lot more beholden to him, will have a lot harder time saying no to Trump, I think Donald Trump, imagining a presidency where he's returning to the White House, I can't imagine he would be prepared to allow a war to continue for seven months, given his specific foreign policy agenda items, be it with Saudi Arabia or other places. 

But right now Israelis, for right or wrong, I think are very much shocked by the step that the President took. I don't think they saw a lot of the lead up that maybe the Biden administration was feeling, that there was a lot of warning given. And I think there's a degree of betrayal that I think a lot of Israelis feel right now. 

But again, things change so rapidly in this war. So that could switch again. And the Biden administration lately has been making a point to say this is just one shipment that we're holding. The vast majority of aid is still going to Israel, and we still have Israel's back. We're still determined to help them get rid of the threat of Hamas. But right now, Israelis, I think, are looking at it a little bit differently.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

How are Israelis viewing the possibility or the prospect of a more major Rafah operation and is there actually a difference of opinion among the Israeli population about how long this war should continue? 

Jacob Magid: 

Given the fact that over the past few weeks, we've seen, Israeli troops returned to areas that they were already fighting in several times, like in the Gaza City neighborhood of Zaytoun. IDF troops returned to again last week. This is the third time they were there and soldiers have been killed each time. And Hamas has managed to regroup and return to these areas the IDF previously cleared. 

But we haven't seen beyond leaks from the military establishment that has been frustrated with the Israeli government, with Prime Minister Netanyahu for not really forging some sort of plan for the day after in Gaza, some sort of body to replace Hamas be it the PA or anyone. Just something is what they're looking to be able to advance in order to complement the military achievements on the battlefield, you need some sort of diplomatic alternative as wel, diplomatic achievements. 

So I think we're getting to a point I would imagine where Israelis are going to start voicing some more frustration with the way the war is being handled. But I think it's going to start with a decision by Benny Gantz, the National Unity Party and also his deputy Gadi Eisenkot, two former IDF chiefs of staff who are highly respected among Israelis.

A poll show that they're the strongest, most popular party right now in the Knesset. If elections were held today. That if they take that step to leave the government and demonstrate that they no longer have trust in the government's ability to get a hostage tool to wage the war, I think then you'll see a bit more frustration amongst Israelis and with the path that Netanyahu has taken, be it in Rafah or other places where they just don't trust that the war is being managed well.

But until that happens, and I think Benny Gantz is very hesitant to take that step, because he knows that there are people he's able to straddle being at playing at both kind of dancing at both weddings right now, where he is very appreciated by both the more left wing people that might appreciate him being in the government to prevent the more far-right flank from taking steps that they don't agree with. And then on the right also for being a team player. And as Israelis like to say in Hebrew, to go under the stretcher and take part in the military offensive, I think he's able to beget appreciation from both.

But once you take that step of crossing the Rubicon and leaving the government, and I think you'll lose some of those people that appreciate you. So I'm not sure when Gantz is going to take that step. But I don't think this war will be able to go on for months more without him leaving the government. I think that if we're two months on and there's no hostage deal, I would expect, I think, that step to be taken. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Are Israelis growing more and more impatient, as the hostages remain in Gaza?

Jacob Magid: 

Yeah, I think they are. I think we're seeing an escalation of these protests that are led by the hostages' families. And they're increasingly willing to be aligned with separate protests that were much more definitive at one point about just toppling the government and demanding new elections. I think that a lot of these families of the hostages are starting to believe that the only way to get their loved ones back is to have a new government in place. 

Now, that's still not the feeling amongst all families of hostages. Obviously, there's 132 families that come from different backgrounds and feel different things about this government. But I think there's definitely a feeling of desperation amongst them. And I think there's a lot of sympathy amongst the broader public with how they feel about this government. And I think at some point that that will dictate the direction that things take.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Jacob, you mentioned earlier that the Biden administration's comments or threats, you refer to them as there's a sense of betrayal. Is there also a sense of despair? In other words, how critical is America's support in this war?

Jacob Magid: 

I think, Israel, at least official Israel since Biden's comments, has insisted that Israel can continue fighting the war on its own, that it doesn't need, obviously would love the US support them, it's very important, but that it has no qualms with going into Rafah or just in general fighting this war on its own. 

It believes it's an existential war, and that it has the means to continue fighting without necessarily US support. That's been the implication of these comments that Prime Minister Netanyahu and Yoav Gallant have been making different framing of how they've responded to it. I think Gallant  is a bit more sensitive to the US concerns than Netanyahu might appear to be. But that's basically the implication. 

However, if you look just I mean, even Ron Dermer, a few days, I believe it was yesterday, he issued a speech basically saying that we have proven that we can fight on our own when we need to. But I think he neglected the point that I think it was April 14, when Iran fired 200 missiles and drones at Israel at the same time. 

It wasn't Israel intercepting all these drones on its own. It required support from the US, from its European allies, from even Jordan and Saudi Arabia, which is less known, but that these countries were needed to come to Israel's aid in order to to really intercept all those rockets, all those missiles and drones. 

And then I don't think it's totally accurate to say that we can do this on our own, we would have had a very different picture. I think on April 14, that night, had those rockets been able to penetrate Israeli airspace and harm civilians. 

So I think, yes, Israel does have the means to continue fighting in Rafah on its own, and then Gaza on its own, but the question of Lebanon is a lot trickier, given how difficult it has been to fight against Hamas. And we've seen as I mentioned, that the Hamas fighters have been able to return to areas that were previously cleared by the IDF that this has taken seven months, and we're not on the edge of victory, as Netanyahu claims that we are.

Just imagine how difficult it's going to be against Hezbollah. Which is even according to Israeli estimates, is far far far stronger than the kind of–it's a full fledged army in a way that Hamas might not necessarily be, as much as we underestimated Hamas.

But I think nobody’s under estimating Hezbollah and the firepower that it has, and the Iran backing that it has. And I think that Israel will need the US support in order to fight that kind of war. 

I think there was this feeling of betrayal. The Biden administration just sees it differently, that they feel that this war has been going on for seven months, and there's really no end in sight. And they are concerned about the civilian casualties. That of course, I think Hamas inflates the numbers. And we can talk about that shortly. 

But it's undeniable that the level of destruction that's been caused to Gaza. And there's just this feeling that without a strategy without a diplomatic path that Israel doesn't seem willing to approach, maybe it's starting to slowly talk a little bit privately about some sort of Palestinian Authority involvement in Gaza. 

But this feeling that we can't just kind of continue throwing our head into the wall without any real broader plan beyond this military approach, and that there is an understanding or a hope in the Biden administration that Israel will some at some point, at least, I think the military establishment is starting to get there, that it'll extend to the political establishment as well, except that we're not trying to do this out of spite.

I think there's a real belief that this is not the best way to go about it going into Rafah the way that Israel wants to go to it. That's how the US sees it. And that we do need to look at other approaches in order to maintain the US support that we the US says that we want to continue giving that we do believe in this eliminating the threat of Hamas.

That's different than eliminating Hamas entirely, which is how I think Israel framed it at the beginning of the war. So we're talking we're with you on eliminating the threat of Hamas. But let's take different steps to go about it. And we're still willing to continue providing our support in the meantime, not just for Hamas, but also the broader threats you face. The US have been very clear that they're not going to walk away from Israel on those.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

So you talked about protests by Israelis and hostage families in particular. Of course, we've had our own protest movement here in America, predominantly on America's college campuses. But they’re very different. Most of the American protests are calling for a flat out ceasefire and criticizing Israel’s response to the massacre on October 7. Very few if any call for a return of the hostages and many have been dominated by loud pro-Hamas and antisemitic elements. I'm curious how the Israelis have viewed those protests and what message they are sending?

Jacob Magid: 

I think that Israelis are similarly disturbed, if not more disturbed by what they're seeing on these campuses. And I think it reinforces a lot of what they feel like the necessity of the evil that they're up against and Hamas is kind of similar to the evil that is being framed on college campuses. And the need to frame it as an existential war to some degree, whether or not that is accurate. I think it's debatable. But there is a growing sentiment of solidarity, I think with Jewish students in the US that of what they're feeling is comparable, maybe not into military scale by any means, but definitely into the ideological scale of what Israelis are facing in Gaza. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Are they surprised by the growing sense of antisemitism abroad? 

Jacob Magid: 

I don't think entirely surprised. I think the fact that they live in Israel is testament to the belief that this is where they believe that Jews should be. I think there's less of an understanding I think amongst mainstream Israelis have the value and the necessity and even the it's totally okay for Jewish lives to take place abroad. I think there's a lot less of an understanding of the the Jewish experience abroad. I think there might be a little bit more understanding amongst diaspora Jews of the experience in Israel as much as possible, I think are two very unique experiences. 

There's not a Birthright for Israelis to come to America to really understand. I mean, a lot of them do after the army. But there isn't that same experience that I think that American Jews and many others are given privy to this real access and, and window into Israeli society. So I think given that I think I think there's just oftentimes when I've spoken to Israelis about this is there's just this assumption that, yeah, of course, there's a lot of antisemitism out there. And that's why you're supposed to be in Israel.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

You work here in the United States, but what are some of the challenges you’ve faced as a journalist for an Israeli outlet, since 10/7?

Jacob Magid: 

I have found myself frustrated trying to cover these campus protests where students aren't willing to speak to me because I work for an Israeli outlet. That was something I'm used to dealing with when I was over in the West Bank and covering Palestinian issues. And there were certain Palestinian officials who were willing to speak with me on background, as in not in name when it's published. 

That's something I'm used to, but now it's having to deal with that with American college students who aren't even, like there's no reason to be going to want to be anonymous, unless you don't like recognize the legitimacy of my newspaper, which I guess is fine, but even though I don't necessarily agree with them, I want to be able to tell their story and I’m unable to fully do so because I'm not getting full cooperation. 

So yeah, it would be definitely easier to work for in that regard a different news outlet where I wouldn’t have to identify myself but it's just kind of I think shows the absurdity of the times of it.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

So we’re speaking to you on Israel’s Memorial Day, before the transition into Independence Day. Are Israelis observing these days differently after October 7?

Jacob Magid: 

Oh absolutely. I spoke with a few family members and friends about the experience right now in Israel, they're just starting to transition to Yom Ha’atzmaut. There are some who are adamant about the need to celebrate this day, that the deaths aren't going to be in vain, that's our purpose. If we felt that it was always the case that we are supposed to celebrate Yom Ha’atzmaut right after Yom Hazikaron, the silver platter to make those soldiers and those who have fallen, their lives, give them meaning. And a reason to celebrate. That technically should stand true this year as well, even though the loss on October 7 was of a magnitude that Israel hadn't seen before. 

But of course, I think given the fact that we have hostages, who are still being held in Gaza, given the fact that the war is still going on, I think a plurality of Israelis, I'm sure are not going to be celebrating this year, the way they had. I think there are still interestingly parties happening; scheduled in Tel Aviv. I'm sure the clubs will be filled in a lot of these cities. I think that's still a sentiment that resonates. But I think Yom Ha’atzmaut is not going to be the same as it was in previous years. 

And Yom Hazikaron I think we saw what was happening in a lot of these ceremonies on military cemeteries across the country where government members were speaking. It's happened in the past where they've been heckled, but not to the degree that I think that we saw this year. 

From the Prime Minister down, a real feeling of anger, because this isn't just the average Israeli who might support the war, might support Netanyahu. These are people who lost the those closest to them, fighting a war that hasn’t gotten to the total victory that Prime Minister Netanyahu has promised, or just a feeling of resentment.

There's a pretty good example, a couple of weeks ago, where two names of casualties were determined dead by the IDF.

One was Elyakim Liebman, from the settlement of Hebron, and one was [Dror Or] I believe from the Gaza periphery. And we saw over a dozen Knesset members, coalition members and ministers head to the funeral of Liebman, who was a real hero, who fought off terrorists during the Nova music festival as a security guard. 

Whereas this other person from the Gaza periphery, [Dror], who came from a community not necessarily aligned ideologically with the government. 

Nobody made any calls to them. Nobody visited, reached out to the family. And I feel like there's a real feeling of resentment and just dissonance between a government that a lot of Israelis feel like just doesn't represent them in increasing number.

I think, even if they agree maybe with the broader goals of the war, that they don't feel like Netanyahu and the broader government is handling it in the way that they appreciate. Even earlier President Biden was seen as someone who was more in touch with the hostages and than Prime Minister Netanyahu was. He reached out to them before Netanyahu did. 

So there's that real dissonance there. And I think that that anger came out during Yom Hazikaron. And I think is, is going to probably carry over, beyond into Yom Ha’atzmaut, and until there's some sort of breakthrough, either a hostage deal, or some sort of end to the war that Israelis would like to see.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Well may that war end very, very soon and may the hostages come home. Jacob, thank you so much for your work here, and for joining us.

Jacob Magid: 

Thank you Manya. Thank you very much for having me.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

If you missed last week’s episode, be sure to tune in for my conversation with AJC CEO Ted Deutch about Jewish American Heritage Month and what it means to be a Jewish American hero today.

This week, guest host Julie Fishman Rayman, AJC's Senior Director of Policy and Political Affairs, had the honor of connecting with Hakeem Jeffries, the leader of the House Democratic Caucus, after he led a congressional delegation to Israel and Ghana. As we approach the AJC Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv, we have the opportunity to listen to the Democratic leader's insights on the trip, the crucial nature of the U.S.-Israel relationship, and the historical and contemporary significance of Black-Jewish relations.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

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Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Hakeem Jeffries

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Show Notes:

Learn more about AJC Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv: AJC.org/GlobalForum

Listen:

• • 8 of the Best Jewish Podcasts Right Now

  • From Roots to Harmony: Nefesh Mountain's Fusion of Jewish American Culture and Bluegrass

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

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Transcript of interview with Hakeem Jeffries: 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

This week, Julie Fishman Rayman, AJC’s Senior Director of Policy and Political Affairs, had the honor of connecting with leader of the House Democratic Caucus, Hakeem Jeffries, after he led a group of lawmakers on a recent trip to Israel. Julie, the mic is yours.

Julie Fishman Rayman:

Thanks, Manya. It’s my pleasure to introduce Rep. Hakeem Jeffries, who represents the very diverse 8th congressional district of New York, in Brooklyn, and also serves as the Democratic Leader. He was unanimously elected to that position in November 2022, and in that capacity he is the highest ranking democrat in the US house. He is also the former chair of the democratic caucus, the whip of the congressional black caucus, and previously co-chaired the  Democratic Policy and Communications committee. Also, a great friend of AJC and the Jewish community. Leader Jeffries, welcome to People of the Pod.

Hakeem Jeffries:    

Wonderful to be on. Thanks so much for having me.

Julie Fishman Rayman:

I want to get started by asking you about Jewish American Heritage Month, which as you know, we celebrate in May. Many listeners may not realize that members in congressional leadership cosponsor very few bills – meaning cosign or add their name to endorse them . In this Congress–correct me if I’m wrong–you’ve cosponsored fewer than a dozen bills and only one resolution–the resolution commemorating Jewish American Heritage Month. Can you speak about this effort and why it was important to you to help lead it?

Hakeem Jeffries:  

Well, thank you so much. And that is absolutely correct. The tradition has been that members and leadership sponsor very few bills and even fewer resolutions, just because the enormity of the request is large. And you want to make sure that you're being very discerning in terms of what you want to elevate as a priority. And for me, it was incredibly important to make sure that I co sponsored the resolution that commemorated Jewish American Heritage Month for a variety of reasons, including the fact that I'm privileged to represent a district that has one of the largest Jewish communities in the country. In fact, I represent the ninth most African American district in the country, and the 16th most Jewish. And so I represent. As a good friend of mine, Leon Goldenberg, once and I quote, you've got the best of both worlds.

It's an honor, though, to represent the reformed Jewish community, the conservative Jewish community, the Orthodox Jewish community, the modern Orthodox Jewish community, the ultra orthodox Jewish community, and more Russian speaking Jewish immigrants from the former Soviet Union than any other member of Congress in the country. I mean, Hakeem Jeffries, who knew only in America, but that's Brooklyn, that's New York City and the Jewish community has meant so much to the country, which is why we honor and celebrate and elevate Jewish American Heritage month but particularly has meant so much to the district that I'm privileged to represent to Brooklyn and to the great city of New York.

Julie Fishman Rayman:

The United States has many heritage months that celebrate the various communities that form the mosaic of our country, including Black History Month, Women’s History Month, Hispanic Heritage Month, and more. By celebrating heritage months, we learn about one another, we honor the richness of our diverse nation, and we strengthen the fabric of American society. Some have described JAHM as going on the offensive against rising antisemitism, do you think that’s an appropriate description? Amidst rising antisemitism and hate of all forms, does this change how we think about commemorative months? 

Hakeem Jeffries:   

Yes, it's a great question. I do think AJC's leadership and certainly the leadership of my former colleague, and good friend, Ted Deutsch has been phenomenally important in this area. And your leadership, Julie, of course, and this podcast and communicating information to the American people will continue to be critical. And the fact that the Jewish community is facing a shocking rise in anti semitism and hate crimes is a cause for alarm for all of us. And it does, I think, lead to the important conclusion that we need to rethink how we lean into the celebrations and acknowledgments, such as Jewish American Heritage Month. That is not just simply an opportunity to be able to communicate to the American people about the many accomplishments, the many ways in every field of human endeavor that Jewish Americans have contributed to the growth and development of America as we know it. And that is important, and that is appropriate. And that is a central part of what celebrating Jewish American Heritage Month should be all about. 

But it also provides a vehicle to make sure that the appropriate narrative is in the public domain in a compelling way, as a vehicle to push back against the rise in antisemitism and hate crimes. Because it's an all hands on deck approach. And it is going to require using every tool available to us. The rise in sort of hatred and extremism, and divisive, generally should trouble us all throughout America over the last several years, and particularly, the sharp and dramatic rise, particularly given the history of the Jewish community, over 1000s of years of persecutions, and pogroms and pain and suffering, should alarm us all. And it is exactly the reason why thinking about this month as one of the tools that we can use to push back aggressively against the rise and hatred is an important and appropriate approach.

Julie Fishman Rayman:

In April, during your first congressional delegation trip as Leader, you traveled to Israel. You have been a great supporter, supporting Israel’s right to defense and speaking out against anti-Israel sentiment time and time again. What were your biggest takeaways from this mission? What are the major challenges and opportunities for the U.S.-Israel relationship?

Hakeem Jeffries:  

Well, that was my sixth time traveling to Israel, fifth time as a member of Congress. And the first time that I traveled to Israel, I actually was a freshman member of the New York State Legislature as part of a trip sponsored by the JCRC of New York, a wonderful opportunity. Someone said to me recently, Julie, wait, wait. You've been to Israel six times. I said, Yes. That's more than any other country you've been to in the world. I said, That would be correct. Is it isn't that a lot? I said, No, not at all. First of all, I'm from New York City, where we consider Jerusalem to be the sixth borough. And I'm just trying to catch up to my constituents. Every time I go to Israel, it's a wonderful eye opening experience. This particular trip was meaningful to me in that I was able to actually lead a delegation for the first time in this position and choose where I would go to in the world as part of my first congressional trip on foreign soil, as the House Democratic Leader. And I chose to go to Israel and to Ghana, to incredibly meaningful countries to meet personally, to the people that I represent, and, of course, to the relationship that exists between the United States and Israel. And I wanted to do it so that it was timed to the anniversary of the 75th founding of the State of Israel, because I thought that will be meaningful for the members that agreed to travel with me and certainly meaningful to me to say to the world, that we're going to continue, as we've transitioned leadership in the House of Representatives, to stand behind the special relationship between the United States and Israel. And to make it clear that that's a special relationship that we as House Democrats believe, is anchored in our shared values and our shared strategic interests. And it was incredible because of the timing of we were there, both on the day of remembrance was incredibly moving. And I was able to participate in one of the ceremonies that we're held to acknowledge those who have been lost, both to acts of terror, and in the conflicts that Israel has been made to endure throughout the 75 year history.

And then, of course, on the eve of the celebration connected to the 75th anniversary, and we had a very diverse group of members, several prominent Jewish American members of Congress, of course, like Josh Gottheimer and Debbie Wasserman Schultz, Dean Phillips, Sarah Jacobs, who was a new and emerging leader, but also the chair of the Congressional Black Caucus. Steve Horsford, the chair of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus, Nanette Barragan, the first vice chair of the Congressional Black Caucus, Yvette Clarke, as well as the top Democrat on the foreign affairs committee, Greg Meeks. And so it was a wonderful experience. We had important public policy discussions with Prime Minister Netanyahu, President Herzog, with the Speaker of the Knesset, as well as the opposition leader, Lapid, they were open, they were honest, there were candid discussions about the challenges that our two countries face. But it was all anchored in our clear affirmation of Israel's right to exist as a Jewish and democratic state, and our commitment as House Democrats to continue to lift up and elevate the special relationship between our two countries.

Julie Fishman Rayman:

So important. How's Israel doing at 75?

Hakeem Jeffries:   

I think Israel, it's a miracle, as has been described, that we've gotten to 75 years. And it's a testament to the strength, and the resilience and the ability, the heart, the soul, the love the intellect, of the Jewish people, and the people of the State of Israel. And I'm confident that through the challenges that we all face in Israel, the best is yet to come. You had an interesting discussion, because of the judicial reform, issues that are underway. And we've got challenges that we're working through here in the United States of America, certainly, as it relates to the Supreme Court, and what is the right, you know, balance in terms of our three branches of government. And we've got to work through that here. Many of us have been troubled by recent developments coming out of the Supreme Court, and Israel's working through trying to figure out what that right balance is, in terms of the rule of law, and the independence of the judiciary, and how that works together.

I think what has been clear to me, in terms of Israel as a robust democracy, that will continue to be a robust democracy is not the challenge is that it's working through to find common ground. And those talks are being led, of course, by President Herzog. But most significantly, the fact that hundreds of 1000s of Israelis have been in the streets, exercising their right, their freedom of expression, their freedom of speech, their freedom of assembly, the right to peaceably gather and petition your government that is at the hallmark of a democratic society. And that's what we've seen, and not a single shot fired, probably nowhere else in the Middle East, would that have occurred other than in Israel, and it's an affirmation of Israel's democratic character.

Julie Fishman Rayman:

In just a few weeks, AJC will hold our annual Global Forum in Tel Aviv. What is one piece of advice you’d give the 1000 or so people coming from around the world to Israel at this time?

Hakeem Jeffries:  

Well, I do think that every time I've gone to Israel, what has been a wonderful aspect of the trip was talking to the full range of people in Israeli society, to get the perspectives on the ground in terms of their views related to the challenges that Israel confront, and the opportunities that exists to continue to thrive into the future. And those are particularly relevant conversations to have now that Israel has hit this incredible milestone of 75 years in what still remains one of the toughest, if not the toughest neighborhoods in the world. And one of the reasons why sustained dialogue, sustained opportunity to engage in wonderful that AJC is hosting this forum in the next month, is that the challenges are always unique whenever one arrives in Israel.

You know, it could be Hamas, it could be Hezbollah, it could be uncertainty in terms of the Iranian malign activity in Syria. It's always, you know, Iran's efforts to try to secure a nuclear weapon and we're gonna make sure that Iran never becomes nuclear capable in Gaza. There are different moments in time, where particular concern meets a level of urgency, but it's always consistently within the frame of Israel living in a very tough neighborhood, which is what I, you know, we reiterated as House Democrats directly to Prime Minister Netanyahu, our commitment to ensuring Israel maintains its qualitative military edge. My view on this thing has always been, and I grew up in central Brooklyn, came of age in the mid to late 80s, early 90s. I kind of know from tough neighborhoods. That was a tough neighborhood. I grew up in Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Gaza, chaos in Syria, in Iraq, Iran with nuclear aspirations, dangerous situation in the Sinai. That's a tough neighborhood. And in a tough neighborhood. The one constant, as I've consistently said, is strength. You can achieve peace, you can achieve stability, but you can only achieve it through the lens of strength. And I think, part of the dialogue that we all should continue to have and will be important for AJC to continue to have is, you know, what are the severe threats that Israel currently confronts? And how can we continue to ensure that Israel has the strength to defend itself and to provide a foundation for lasting peace moving forward building upon things like the Abraham accords?

Julie Fishman Rayman: 

Prior to Israel, you and the members of congress who traveled with you to Israel went to Ghana, one of America’s closest allies in West Africa and a nation that still bears the painful scars of the transatlantic slave trade. At AJC’s 2019 Global Forum, you became the first member of the congressional Caucus on Black-Jewish Relations, I think less than an hour after it was officially launched. Did your back to back trips to Ghana and then Israel spark any insights as we continue–collectively–to try to bring Blacks and Jews closer together? Especially because Blacks and Jews were really strongly represented in your delegation?

Hakeem Jeffries:  

Yes, you know, AJC's effort in terms of forming the black Jewish caucus was a wonderful thing, a great foundation. And in many ways, the trip to Ghana and to Israel is in that same tradition. And as you pointed out, Julie, there were a lot of African American members of Congress who on the trip and a lot of Jewish men from the members of Congress who were on the trip who visited both countries. And, you know, we were able to involve Ghana, and in Israel and Ghana, visit the Cape Coast slave castles, which were central to the horrific transatlantic slave trade.

And we also were able to visit Yad Vashem and I was able to lay a wreath and make it clear that we would never forget and never again, allow the Horus of what was seen during the Holocaust to occur. And it was important that in addition to, in Ghana, for instance, meeting with President Akufo Addo, to visit the site, for a lot of the activity of the transatlantic slave trade, and, of course, the ties that then connect to the African American community in the United States of America, and to visit the door of no return. But also to make sure that, in the time that we were in Israel, almost every time that I've been there, we've always made it a point to make sure that we visited Yad Vashem, it's always a very powerful, moving experience. And it was the same and to be able to do it together with black members of Congress and Jewish members of Congress, and leaders, who were not black and Jewish, but were on the trip with us, was really a powerful experience, I think, for everyone involved. And I think it's important for us to continue to try to lean in to strengthening the relationships between the black and Jewish community. It's something that because of the district that I represent, has always been central to my time and public service. And I do you know, I am moved by the fact that at least part of the district that I represent, and that told this story during the Democratic caucus celebration of Jewish American Heritage Month, but I tried to tell it whenever I get the opportunity that I do represent a district that was once represented in part by a manual seller. And a manual seller was the longest certain Congress person in the history of the country. He served for 50 years, first elected in 1922. And served through 1972. 

He was a staunch ally and advocate for the special relationship between the United States and Israel from the very beginning. He was there, I believe, with Truman, when the United States first recognized Israel, and was there to support the special relationship every step of the way throughout the time that he was in Congress. But what also is little known about Manny seller, as he was affectionately known in Brooklyn, is that during the 1960s, he was also the chair of the House Judiciary Committee, which meant that he played an important role, legislatively, and making sure that the 1964 Civil Rights Act, and the 1965 Voting Rights Act, became the law of the land, to crush Jim Crow, and crushed the effort to oppress the ability of African Americans, particularly in the south to participate fully in our democracy. And then you go to civil rights museums across the country, and whenever there have been exhibits, even here in the Library of Congress, usually always an acknowledgement of the role that Manny Celler played. And I'm proud of the fact that I can represent a district that someone who was such an important link between the black and Jewish community and actually played a meaningful role in helping to advance legislation to change the course of America, in supporting the efforts and leadership of Dr. King and others, is an important thing. 

That's a tradition that I look forward to continuing to build upon and at the same time, to be able to represent a district as I mentioned earlier, where I serve more Russian speaking Jewish immigrants from the former Soviet Union than anyone else. And to know that Dr. King took time out from his days of leading the civil rights movement, to speak to Jewish leaders and rabbinical leaders across the country famously anchored in his guiding principle, that injustice anywhere is a justice everywhere, and it was great injustice, being directed at the Jewish community that was behind the Iron Curtain during the days of the Soviet Union, and to use his voice to speak up on behalf of what he appropriately viewed as his Jewish brothers and sisters who are facing oppression. That example that was set by Dr. King, that example that was set by Congressman Judiciary Committee Chair Manny Celler, who wasn't just focused on strengthening the relationship between the United States and Israel, but also dealt with the injustices directed at African Americans throughout the United States. That's a powerful heritage for us in Congress, or us as leaders, as AJC has promoted, to continue to build upon.

Julie Fishman Rayman:

Thank you so much, you've provided us with such a sweeping understanding not just of the history-everything from Manny Celler to Dr. King to Yad Vashem. But also a vision for where we can all go collectively. Whether it's in May, during Jewish American Heritage Month, or Black History Month, or every day, trying to honor the legacy of Americans from all facets who lift up our great nation and make it what it is today. Leader Jeffries, thank you for your leadership and thank you for being with us.

Hakeem Jeffries:  

Thank you so much, what an honor Julie to be on and all the best to you and look forward to continuing to work closely with Ted, with AJC, on behalf of the issues that we all care about, particularly as it relates to the well being of the Jewish community here in the United States of America and throughout the world.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

If you missed last week’s episode, be sure to tune in for my conversation with the Jewish bluegrass duo Nefesh Mountain, featuring not one but two live musical performances, a wonderful way to wrap up our month-long series of shows honoring Jewish American Heritage.

Before, during, and after the Holocaust, antisemitism spread throughout American society. AJC’s innovative multimedia campaign to counter this rising hatred is the subject of “Confronting Hate: 1937-1952,” an exhibit at the New York Historical Society. With posters, comic books, newspaper advertisements, radio spots, and television cartoons, that, since 1952, have not been seen by the public, join Charlotte Bonelli, Director of AJC's Archives and Records Center, and Debra Schmidt Bach, Curator of Decorative Arts and Special Exhibitions at the New-York Historical Society, for a behind-the-scenes tour, recorded live from the exhibit. Hear original radio clips: “Uncle Don’s All-American Contest,” “Dear Adolf,” and a historic, moving 1944 NBC Radio broadcast in cooperation with AJC, which aired the first Jewish religious broadcast from Germany since the rise of Hitler, straight from a battlefield in Aachen, Germany.

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Episode Lineup:

• (0:00) Dana Steiner
• (2:00) Charlotte Bonelli and Debra Schmidt Bach

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Show Notes:

If you’re alarmed by rising antisemitism, you can take action right now by supporting AJC: visit AJC.org/donate, or text AJC DONATE to 52886.

Visit the New York Historical Society to see “Confronting Hate 1937–1952” open through January 1, 2023. 

Interested in bringing “Confronting Hate 1937–1952” to your museum or institution, free or charge? Contact Emily Croll, Deputy Museum Director at travelingexhibitions@nyhistory.org, or (212) 873-3400 x527.

AJC’s William E. Wiener Oral History Library: listen to the oral histories of Milton Krents, Richard Rothschild and Ethel Phillips, which helped inform the exhibit.

AJC Archives

Uncle Don's All American Contest

Broadcasting from the Battlefield 

Music credit: Lille by johnny_ripper is licensed under a Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 (Will Not Appear in Vimeo Music Store) License.

Listen to our latest podcast episode: From “Chopped” to the White House: TikTok Chef Eitan Bernath on Being a Loud and Proud Jew

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

In the days following October 7, Israeli filmmaker Shifra Soloveichik felt hopeless and hated, but not helpless. Inspired by women around her, she launched a digital initiative called Women of Valor: Women of War, to spotlight unheralded women with extraordinary stories during one of the most difficult moments in modern Jewish history. To mark Women’s History Month, hear from Shifra about how she is giving a voice to Israeli women whose stories have gone unheard.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Shifra Soloveichik

Show Notes:

Learn more:

• Women of Valor on Instagram

• Senai Geudalia’s Story on YouTube

• Sarah Lopez’s Story on Instagram

Listen – People of the Pod on the Israel-Hamas War:

• 152 Days Later: What the Mother of Hostage Edan Alexander Wants the World to Know

• What It’s Like to Be Jewish at Harvard Among Antisemites and Hamas Supporters

• When Antisemites Target Local Businesses: How Communities Are Uniting in Response

• How A 10/7 Survivor is Confronting Anti-Israel Activists on College Campuses

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Transcript of Interview with Shifra Soloveichick:

Senai Geudalia:

So I'll start from the day before. It was Friday, October 6. That night was really fun. 

We were dancing in the street from place to place, like you know hakafot here, hakafot there. And he was like being so like himself, times 100. Hugging me and dancing with me and just, at the sea of Yosef, like that was Yosef in a bottle, like celebrating his people, celebrating the Torah and being with his family, like that was the peak of Yosef. 

You know, they say the neshamah [soul] knows 40 days before. So that to me, like he was like getting all of it in.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

That’s Senai Geudalia, whose husband Yosef was killed on Oct 7.In the uncertain days following the outbreak of the war between Israel and Hamas, Israeli filmmaker Shifra Soloveichik felt hopeless and hated, but not helpless. She used her craft to launch a digital initiative called Women of Valor: Women of War, an opportunity to lift up the Jewish women of Israel and share their stories of courage and perseverance. 

To mark Women's History Month, Shifra is with us now to discuss Women of Valor: Women of War. Shifra, Welcome to People of the Pod.

Shifra Soloveichik: 

Hi, thanks for having me. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You have shared a little bit about the genesis of this project on your social media. You felt self conscious, scared, like a lot of us did after October 7. Can you share how you channeled that fear?

Shifra Soloveichik: 

So on October 7, myself, and like many Israelis, we woke up to sirens. My husband was immediately call for reserve duty that morning. And it was a very scary feeling. Because I had never experienced anything like that before. I grew up in the States. I moved to Israel when I was a young teenager, so my entire relationship, my husband, he was never in the army, so I never had that sort of experience within my relationship. 

The only word I can describe I could use to describe how I felt was scared. It was a very scary day. I remember being scared to walk to my in-laws house that they live very close by because there were sirens every other minute. And we lived in an area in Israel where there aren't usually a lot of sirens. So we knew things were going on. We also are observant Jews. So if we couldn't check our phones, we were keeping Sabbath. So we weren't able to understand what was going on. We were just hearing from people talking on the streets. 

We heard that maybe there was a terrorist infiltration, but we didn't quite understand the scope of what was going on. And my husband left. I didn't know what to do. I didn't realize that from that day, he would be in reserves for four months, and our entire lives completely changed. And just the first few days of the war was incredibly terrifying, because only after Shabbat did we realize what was going on. And over the next few days, did we realize what was going on. 

And there were two aspects that were very fearful. One was that physically what my entire life changed within a few minutes. And I was living, I wasn't living at home, I was scared to be myself. My husband wasn’t at home. There was a physical war going on. I didn't know where he was going. On October 7, we didn't know anything. So it was just a very logistic reason to be afraid.

And then on top of that, I would go on social media and I would scroll through Tiktok and Instagram and see, at the beginning level of support. But even then, there were a lot of people who were saying very hateful things calling what happened on October 7 a resistance. 

So there was just that aspect of fear. But there was also this very genuine fear of being scared of being a Jew and experiencing a level of hate that I didn't know was humanly possible. So I had all of these feelings of, of fear, and also hopelessness. And the only thing that got me through that time was being with other women whose husbands were also in reserve duty, being with family, being within a support network where we would sit around, and we would knit and we would talk, all of our schedules were all gone. We didn't have school, we didn't have work. We didn't have anything to do except wait around all day for our husbands to call us and just be scared. So that support system is what got me through. And it inspired me.

And throughout living in Israel and reading the news stories of the horrific tragic things that were happening, I was also finding so much strength and the connection between the Jewish women that I was experiencing in my community as well as stories of Jewish women who were so brave and powerful, and empowering in their own right, in different ways from the war and those women would inspire me as well.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So I love how you describe the subjects of women of Valor, –ordinary women who do extraordinary things, because that's often how I define the religion stories that I pursue–ordinary people who do extraordinary things inspired by their faith. What are some of the other extraordinary stories you have collected so far?

Shifra Soloveichik: 

Yes, absolutely. So, Iris Haim, the mother of Yotam Haim, who was abducted from his home in Kfar Aza, and was in Hamas captivity and ran away from his captors. He was killed by IDF friendly fire, a situation that is just so unbelievably awful and horrific. And we interviewed Iris Haim as part of the Women of Valor series, but I think she's an embodiment of looking at evil in the eyes and still saying that she doesn't blame the IDF. She doesn't blame her people. And that at this time, we need to come together and be one family, which I think is something so difficult to feel sometimes during such hard times of war. But even more so after such a horrific tragic loss, she was able to, and she continues to inspire people through her perspective and her power. 

And I think in general, the women that I've been bringing, that we've been wanting to show a light or showcase on the series are women who, who are not letting their pain define them. Rather, they are taking the next step to be empowered through their story. I think in general, with everything that's happened since October 7, there's been so many awful tragedies that have happened to our people, to the Jewish people. And it's very easy for us as a nation to connect through the pain and connect to each other and feel each other's pain and kind of sit in the pain. 

It's more so, these women are letting their power, they are choosing to let that define them. And I think that's a really beautiful part of this platform that we're creating, which is connecting other women to our strength and to the beauty that comes along with the pain but it's not letting the pain and the evil define who we are.

Sarah Lopez:

Two weeks after October 7, I found out I was pregnant. I was honestly shocked and the joy that I felt was such a juxtaposition to the pain that I was feeling that it almost felt kind of wrong. My husband was in miluim at the time and I surprised him when he got back. 

For us it was like this little flame of light and joy during such a dark time. Now I don't feel like this is just another baby or I'm just another mother. Now this feels like a mission, it feels like a shlichut, to continue our Jewish legacy and bring life after we lost so many. 

It’s kind of like a sign to our enemies, because us Jewish women, we're not gonna stop being strong and powerful. We're not going to stop living and giving life. Because we are women of valor.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

How did you find the women for this project, like Sarah Lopez, who we just heard from?

Shifra Soloveichik: 

So we have two different parts of the project. We have documentaries, as well as a social media platform. They kind of  work together, but they are kind of different entities in the sense that and the documentaries, I have four interviews with women that I specifically wanted to show their narrative, and our social media is open to everyone, any Jewish woman can send in her submission of what her life has been like since October 7, or how she defines what a woman of valor is. So with the submissions, we have so many women just sending us stories and ideas and thoughts. And they send it through asocial media form, in a social media structure. So they'll send you their reels, or posts or written posts or captions, and so many different ways. And that was just very organic, we post on our stories that we would love for you to share your story. And it comes to us. And it's just a beautiful initiative and way for us all to connect and feel seen and heard. 

And for the documentaries that came more from a film background of just research and reaching out to specific women that I wanted to amplify their voices. And that was our production team working on that. And that was more from things I saw on the news as well as friends of friends that I was inspired by and I was like, you know what, I need to share her story. So it kind of happened in that organic route as well.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

This project in many ways highlights how women are overcoming the unique challenges that face them in the aftermath of October 7. Could we talk a little bit about those unique challenges but also the added affront of doubt that Israeli women faced unspeakable crimes. The UN recently validated the claims of sexual violence against women by Hamas, for example. That seemed like an additional layer of trauma that Israeli women had to endure even if they weren't directly affected by it. How do you see Israeli women responding to those kinds of challenges as well?

Shifra Soloveichik: 

The lack of condemning the sexual violence on October 7 was very hurtful, but I wasn't. I would have seen it coming. I wasn't surprised. Because just from the general feeling that and especially that's something I experienced a lot on October 7 was that everyone is kind of out to get me, like why would anyone believe me? No one understands me. I think there's a general feeling of misunderstanding amongst Israelis in general amongst all Israelis, not women and men alike. I think it's just or it's not something I was surprised by, which is very painful to say. 

I think what Israeli women are experiencing, specifically is kind of an understanding of where our priorities are and what we need to focus on in order to be strong and be strong for our husbands, for our children, our parents. There are a lot of Israeli women who are, who are soldiers and are in reserve duty, but also a lot are kind of also undeserved duty from the other end of supporting the war from a more spiritual and emotional perspective. 

I think that is the biggest challenge of kind of just not letting anything faze you and being focused on how can we continue the conversation? How can we continue our lives in a healthy way? I think if I were to sit and think about all of the injustice since October 7, I don't think I would be able to have it within myself to create a platform like this necessarily, because it's just so disappointing.

But unfortunately, not something that I would have expected otherwise. I yeah, I think that there's a lot of immense trauma going on right now. Amongst all Israelis, I think I don't know the exact statistic. But most Israelis suffer from some form of PTSD. And I think when we let the outside voices kind of define our narrative,it just makes it harder. Like it's harder for us to kind of focus on how we continue, how we grow.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You have described this war as not only one of physical violence, but as a spiritual battle against the essence of our existence, those are the words that you used. The existence of the Jewish people, is that what you mean by that? Can you explain it a bit?

Shifra Soloveichik: 

It can be defined as against the existence of the Jewish people, but I don't think you necessarily you don't have to be Jewish to be an Israeli and to be part of this narrative. I think there are so many Women of Valor, who are not necessarily Jewish, they can be Muslim, Christian, and they live in Israel, and they are also experiencing tragedy from this war. I don't think it is particularly only a Jewish concept. 

But I do think that the general narrative against the essence of existence as Israelis and Israeli Jews is kind of what's going on. The spiritual war is that, it’s part of the narrative that Israel should not exist.

And the battle that we're fighting is, why shouldn't I? I deserve to live too, I deserve to be part of this, I deserve to live freely, why is this part of the conversation? And I think that's more of the spiritual aspect of kind of standing up for our rights to exist as a Jew, wherever I want to live. If it's in America, if it's in Israel, if it's in Canada, I have a right to exist. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And do you see women in particular as fighting this spiritual war?

Shifra Soloveichik: 

I believe that women are the spiritual leaders. I think from history and from the Bible that's how I've always connected to the role of women in Judaism, is that we are spiritual warriors throughout all the generations.I see it on a on a general scale, but on a very, very personal level, just me being at home while my husband was at war. It did feel like something out of the Bible, like what people talk about. I was just at home and you think, what do you do at home, when your husband's at war, it's just such a odd concept. And it just feels so traditional in a sense. 

And that reality was just very eye opening, of what is my role in my home. And I think highlighting that aspect, that more traditional role as an empowering thing, because that in my personal journey, that's kind of where it brought me, has just been, I think, giving a voice to a lot of women and saying, you know, stuff like your role in whatever you choose to do, whether that's be a warrior, or be a wife, or be a mother, be a commander in the army, like these are not contradictory things. 

I interviewed someone named Shifra Buchris, who is a mother of 10, who's also commander in Magav, in the border police, and she's also religious, and she also,  saved tons of lives on October 7, she was driving back and forth from the Nova festival, just saving lives. 

I think people kind of can see it as a complex idea of like, what is a woman of valor? What is what makes someone a spiritual warrior? And I think it's just, it's, it's anything, it's anything if you're a woman, and you're, and you're fighting, in whatever way you're, you're a woman of valor. And she's a great embodiment of that, that kind of like, oh, is this? Are these identities complex? Are they contradictory? And it's, it's honestly, it's not. We are all living here trying to be there for our families, be there for our our friends and our nation.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Why focus on women?

Shifra Soloveichik: 

As an Israeli Jewish woman, I see a lot of emphasis on the men in our society. And I think also as a whole. Just growing up, I haven't seen so much representation of women voices that I connected with. I think it's specifically in Israeli society, there's a big emphasis on the military, it's more of a patriarchal society, I would say not necessarily in a bad way. I think it makes sense in the context of us having a lot of wars, and there's just a lot of emphasis and an honor placed on our male soldiers, because of what they do. And it's incredible, and they are protecting Israel. And it makes sense. 

That idea that I had with this project was to give voices to those who are not necessarily being honored or applauded, whether that's in the general society or even within our consciousness, I think, just giving a voice to people who have inspired me and inspire countless others, but you wouldn't look at them walking down the street and think, oh, yeah, they're super inspiring, and they're so strong, because I think it's more of a internal strength as opposed to like an external battle. And I think giving a voice to those women and those and that narrative has just been very empowering for me personally, and that's really what I hope to share through this platform.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Shifra, thank you so much for joining us. To learn more about Women of Valor, check out @ValorStories on Instagram and Youtube - links are in our Show Notes. 

Shifra Soloveichik: 

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

As students head back to campus, Tilly Shemer, Executive Director of University of Michigan Hillel, joins guest host Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman, Director of AJC’s Alexander Young Leadership Department, to discuss the difficult realities, as well as the wealth of opportunities, that are awaiting American Jews on campus. 

Then, Dr. Jeffrey Herbst, President of American Jewish University, shares his advice on how universities can combat antisemitism on campus. 

_____

Episode Lineup:

• (0:55) Tilly Shemer 

• (24:15) Jeffrey Herbst

• (35:54) Manya Brachear Pashman and Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman

_____

Show Notes:

Fighting Campus Anti-Semitism Before It Explodes: Op-ed by Jeff Herbst

Can the European Union effectively combat antisemitism? Meet the woman leading the bloc’s efforts to do just that: European Commission Coordinator on combating antisemitism Katharina von Schnurbein. Last month, the EU unveiled its first Strategy on Combating Antisemitism and Fostering Jewish Life, a multi-faceted plan that incorporated many recommendations from AJC. Hear from von Schnurbein how that strategy is being implemented and what it means for European Jews and the entire Jewish diaspora.

Then, for our closing segment, Shabbat Table Talk, host Manya Brachear Pashman and Shira Loewenberg, Director of AJC's Asia Pacific Institute (API), reflect on Jewish journalist Danny Fenster’s release from prison in Myanmar and the dire situation in the country.

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Episode Lineup:

(0:40) Katharina von Schnurbein

(19:39) Manya Brachear Pashman and Shira Loewenberg

__

Show Notes:

Tune in on December 2 at 12PM ET for a special live People of the Pod recording, “Action Not Apathy: Shine a Light on Antisemitism.” You can register for the program at AJC.org/AdvocacyAnywhere 

Everything You Need to Know About Antisemitism in Europe: https://www.ajc.org/AntisemitismInEurope

EU Strategy on combating antisemitism and fostering Jewish life (2021-2030): https://ec.europa.eu/info/files/eu-strategy-combating-antisemitism-and-fostering-jewish-life-2021-2030_en

Paul Salopek’s Out of Eden Walk: https://www.nationalgeographic.org/projects/out-of-eden-walk/

Basketball coach Bruce Pearl is on a mission both on and off the court.

This summer, Coach Pearl, who is Jewish, took his Auburn University men’s basketball team to Israel on a first-of-its-kind “Birthright for College Basketball” trip to play against Israeli national teams, and visit sites across the country, from the Mount of Olives to the Western Wall and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.

As the college basketball season gears up, Dov Wilker, Regional Director of AJC Atlanta, sat down with Coach Pearl to talk about being a passionate pro-Israel Jew at a large Southern university, what it was like being in Israel with his team during the conflict in August, and the reaction he received from the trip.

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Episode Lineup:

(0:40) Bruce Pearl

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Show Notes:

Photo credits: Auburn Athletics.

AJC’s Call to Action Against Antisemitism

Listen to our latest podcast episode: Pittsburgh's Response to the Tree of Life Synagogue Shooting: An Oral History

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

Just hours before the Russian invasion of Ukraine began, Vladislav Davidzon, founding editor of The Odessa Review and contributor to Tablet Magazine, joined us live from Kyiv for a fascinating analysis and unique perspective on the mood on the ground, what Russian President Vladimir Putin is trying to accomplish, and the future of Europe's fourth largest Jewish community.  ____ Episode Lineup: (0:40) Vladislav Davidzon

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Show Notes:

Urge Congress to stand with Ukraine

AJC’s statement on Russian invasion of Ukraine

Listen to an update from Vadislav Davidzon with AJC Europe Director Simone Rodan Benzaquen on the current situation in Ukraine

The Odessa Review

From Odessa With Love: Political and Literary Essays in Post-Soviet Ukraine

Listen to our latest episode: Black, Jewish, and Proud: Rapper Nissim Black on Israel, Antisemitism, and Racism

Don’t forget to subscribe to People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

Did you know that Jewish communities outside the U.S. have long viewed security as a communal responsibility and do not solely rely on law enforcement? Is a shift toward this viewpoint emerging in America? This week, amid the High Holiday season, we spoke to Evan Bernstein, CEO and national director of The Community Security Service, a volunteer-led national organization that trains community members to protect their synagogues and events. We discuss the manifestations of antisemitism and hate crimes plaguing all denominations of Jewish life in the U.S. and the growing importance of volunteer security in keeping communities safe.

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Episode Lineup:

(0:40) Evan Bernstein

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Show Notes:

AJC’s Call to Action Against Antisemitism

Listen to our latest podcast episode: Ken Burns Explores U.S. Inaction During the Holocaust

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

After 471 harrowing days in Gaza, Israeli hostages Emily Damari, Romi Gonen, and Doron Steinbrecher are finally reunited with their families. Julie Fishman Rayman, AJC’s Managing Director of Policy and Political Affairs, discusses the emotional impact of these reunions, the high-stakes prisoner exchange deal, and the collaboration between the outgoing Biden administration and newly inaugurated President Donald Trump. This breakthrough highlights the broader societal trauma in Israel, the complexities of negotiating with Hamas, and the ongoing efforts to bring all hostages home. Learn how this pivotal moment could reshape U.S.-Israel relations and Middle East policy moving forward.

Listen – AJC Podcasts:

• The Forgotten Exodus: with Hen Mazzig, Einat Admony, and more.

• People of the Pod: 

• Bring Them Home: Understanding the Israel-Hamas Hostage Deal and Its Impact

• Pack One Bag: Stanley Tucci and David Modigliani Uncover His Jewish Family’s Escape from Fascism and Antisemitism in 1930s Italy

• Gov. Josh Shapiro and AJC CEO Ted Deutch on Combating Antisemitism

• Mijal Bitton on What It Means to Be a Jew Today

• The Next Chapter in Catholic-Jewish Relations

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

__

Transcript of Conversation with Julie Fishman Rayman:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

The world watched Sunday as three women held hostage in Gaza for 471 days reunited with their families. The moving footage was juxtaposed against the frightening prospect of more than 1000 Palestinian prisoners, many of them convicted murderers and terrorists, would eventually return to freedom as well in exchange for the hostages. 

There was also the strange irony of a hostage crisis nearing an end amid a transition in the White House, just a week after President Carter, who departed the White House as the Iran hostage crisis neared the end, was laid to rest.

Here to discuss the painful and painstaking process of bringing the hostages home is Julie Fishman Rayman, AJC's Managing Director of Policy and Political Affairs. Julie, welcome.

Julie Fishman Rayman: 

Thank you so much, Manya, for having me. I appreciate the opportunity to tell this amazing story.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

It has been a long 470 days now for you and your team as you have worked so closely with hostages' families. What was it like for you to watch those reunion videos?

Julie Fishman Rayman:  

Pure, pure joy. One of the things that I talk about with my team a lot is that we missed an opportunity during the last agreement, during the last releases, to really celebrate. You know, we sort of thought, oh, okay, this, this is it. Now we're going to soon be able to celebrate everyone coming home. But what we missed in that moment was that that was just the end of the sprint and the start of the marathon that we've been in now for so long. 

So being able to see these three released, all I could think was dayenu, this would be enough. You know, after all of this, after all the work, after all the agony, and certainly, you know, the families don't feel that way, and our work must continue. There's no question, we have to keep going until they're all home. But even, even if it were just Emily, just Romi, just Doron, this, to me, personally, feels enough.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

There was also talk of the very high price that was paid for these, for these hostages to return. It was so wonderful to see Gilad Shalit return home, but at the cost of more than 1000 prisoners, including Yawah Sinwar, who was the architect of the October 7 attack. And so I know there is this huge fear among Israelis now and that there are efforts underway to prevent this kind of deal, specifically, this kind of deal, from happening again. But where do you stand on this? Where does AJC stand on this? And where do the families stand on this?

Julie Fishman Rayman:  

Well, I'll start by answering your question with regards to the families, because they are not a monolith. They're not unanimous in their opinions on this, and a lot of them, you know, even within families, feel very ambivalent, and don't even necessarily feel the same way in the morning that they do in the evening, because there's just so so so much emotion around this. Any deal to get hostages, to get political prisoners, to get anyone unjustly held, released, is ugly.

If you peel back the onion layers or or look behind the curtain, you see all of the really yucky things that we don't want to acknowledge about, you know, negotiating with terrorists, about allowing people who have committed the most heinous crimes to be free. But that's the only way it works, right? That's the only way you get to an agreement. 

So unless you are fully confident, as you know, a government or a power that has citizens held unjustly, that you are going to be able to complete many heroic rescues, as the Israeli Defense Forces has done, the only viable solution is to get to a deal. And I think that there is, there's a recognition in the United States, in Israel that a deal was the only way to get these folks released, finally. But there are really heavy costs to be paid, and I do feel as though there is, there's a nervousness, you know, what comes? What happens next? 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And then, of course, there's also the trauma that a number of survivors are feeling out there, whose family members were murdered by these prisoners who are going free. Has AJC worked with them in any way and connected with them in any way?

Julie Fishman Rayman:

I believe our Jerusalem office knows a number of those families. It has some of those connections on the ground. We have not engaged with them in Washington or in our work, sort of throughout the United States, in the same way that we have with hostage families. But one of the things that I think is incumbent, not just on AJC, but really on the Jewish community and all who care about Israel, is to lift up those stories and to sort of collectively hold the pain of those families who felt when the murderers of their family members, when they were imprisoned, they felt okay, we have justice, you know, like we have a sense of closure, and that this pain that we've endured has has not, has not been for, for no reason.

And now they have to go back into that trauma and go back into that pain and without that sort of sense of closure. So there's a lot of trauma that those families are going to be going through. And if we've learned one major lesson from this big hostage ordeal that we're going through now, is that the pain of one family in Israel is not exclusive to that family, that it reverberates throughout society, that it ripples throughout the entire population.

And so as one family is grieving or suffering, all of the families are. That's one thing that we've seen throughout the course of the last you know, 478 days in Israel. That the families are not alone, that the tragedy and the horror that they have experienced has created this terrific rift in a lot of ways, in Israeli society, this feeling of a lack of trust that the that the government, that the Israeli Defense Forces, that the population as a whole, could protect them to this point.

And we can only hope that this deal will be concluded, that as we're in phase one, that phase two will continue to be negotiated. That we will get to the end, so that the families can all be reunited, and this feeling of cohesion in Israeli society and throughout the diaspora can continue.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Julie, can you share with our audience--I said you worked closely, you and your team worked closely with the hostages' families, and have been ever since this ordeal on October 7. Can you explain to our audience what that means? What have you been doing? What have you been working toward, and how have you been working toward it?

Julie Fishman Rayman: 

Absolutely. So since the very early days after October 7, we've been deeply engaged with families, and it started just, I think five or six days after the seventh, my phone rang, and it was a number from Israel. I didn't know the number, but of course, you know, it's a number from Israel. I'm going to answer, so my answer and the caller explained that he was Jon Polin, the father of Hersh Goldberg-Polin. That his son had part of his arm blown off by a grenade. They knew that, and that he was being held hostage, and that he was one of many, many parents who are going through this experience, and he didn't really know what to do, and could we help? 

And choking back tears right, choking them back, I said, Yes, of course, we can help, like, what's Let's talk this out. Let's make you know, let's make a plan. But AJC is here. We're here for your family. We can be here for the families . And it started what I think none of us could have imagined, in terms of this ongoing, continuous support, not just for Jon and Rachel, although we continue to stay very closely engaged with them, but for more than 50 families who started seeing elected officials when they traveled to Israel, who started to come to Washington, DC. 

Because they felt like in Washington, the elected officials that they could meet wit had power, had influence, would hear their stories and try to move heaven and earth for their children. So virtually, you know, every month, at least sometimes every week, every other week, we opened our doors in Washington, DC, we opened our rolodexes and said, we'll help you with meetings. 

Whether that was with members of Congress, with the administration, with members of the media, with the diplomatic corps, with other partners. Sometimes the delegations were random. It was whoever, whichever family members wanted to come. Sometimes they were specific, right? Sometimes we would bring family members of female hostages to talk specifically about their concerns related to gender based violence, and just simply try to give them the biggest and broadest platform that we could to tell their stories. And that's what they've been doing for 470 days, and that's what needs to continue, really and truly, until every single hostage comes home.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Clearly, Monday was also a big day here in the United States, President Joe Biden left the White House, handed the keys back to Donald Trump, who was inaugurated as the 47th president. And really, I could not help but think about the Carter-Reagan transition and the Iran hostage crisis that came to an end soon after. Clearly, Trump has made the issue of releasing the hostage as a core foreign policy priority for his administration. What is the reaction you're hearing from the families about the Trump administration's efforts and as well as the efforts by the former Biden administration?

Julie Fishman Rayman: 

The families had really great access within the Biden administration, really at the very top. Know, a lot of the families, especially the families of the American hostages, met with some frequency with the President himself, with Jake Sullivan, with Roger Carstens, the special envoy for hostages, and really felt as though this administration was was with them on this horrific journey, and they always spoke with and continue to speak with a lot of gratitude towards the Biden administration. 

But it also became very clear that when Trump was elected, that they were eager to seize on any opportunity. And so you talk about this, this Carter-Reagan sort of moment. The families, for some time, had been talking to the president elect, now President, and his team, and saying, we need a Reagan moment. This can be President Trump's Reagan moment. They've been planting that seed and really playing to the hope that this would be something that would be meaningful as well for him. 

And I think we're deeply successful in doing this. We would not be where we are today without this amazing display of collaboration between the Biden administration and the incoming Trump administration. The ability for the two of them to work together, build on what the Biden administration had been doing for so long, and then also come in with the sort of bravado of President Trump, and a commitment, really, he said he’s going to rain hell down if the hostages aren't released. So sort of the combination of these efforts, I think, was so remarkable and really got us to where we are today, but we're not, we're not there yet. 

And so, as we celebrate Emily and Doron and Romi’s return, their triumphant return. We also know that there's a lot that could continue to go wrong at any stage of this, of this agreement, and even President Trump himself said, I'm not confident. And this is from a man who is sort of eternally confident. So the fact that he's expressing that caution, that nervousness about the ability to get to the finish line, means that we still, and the families still have a lot of work to do.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

I find it interesting that you are referring to it as a collaboration, because, because my next question was going to be, I mean, how much credit does the incoming administration deserve for the hostage deal versus the outgoing administration? Would you say it really was a genuine collaboration?

Julie Fishman Rayman:  

All signs point to a genuine collaboration. I think there's a lot that we don't know, and we will know for some time, just as when we look at, you know, the last 470 days, there's so much of this amazing story that needs to be told. I feel very proud about the role that AJC played. But success has many people to credit, always.

And there were tons of players, not just in Washington, DC, across the country, across the globe, who made it possible to get to where we are today. So it will be very interesting at this point, we sort of see a jockeying for credit amongst the Biden administration and the incoming Trump administration. I am willing to give that credit out like candy on Halloween. Everyone who had the smallest part should be taking that victory lap, patting themselves on the back and then preparing themselves for the next round of advocacy and pressure.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

President Trump did have former hostages at his rally at the arena on Monday night. What message do you think he was trying to send, and I'll follow that with, what message do you think they are taking back home to Israel?

Julie Fishman Rayman:

I am ecstatic that he brought the families up on stage with him. I think that was such a meaningful moment, and certainly deeply meaningful to them. Because amidst all of this, there must be some there must be some fear that, okay, we've started to bring people home. What if we don't get across the finish line, right? 

So the commitment, even after Emily, Doron, and Romi were returned, to bring them up and to show the importance of their families and their cause, I think, was deeply, deeply important. Cynically, I think part of that was to show, look, I've just come into office and look at the win that I've already had. But if it takes that sort of seizing of credit to keep the push going, I welcome that 100%, without question. 

The families will no doubt take tremendous comfort in the fact that they were called up to stage. That representatives of this really large and robust community, sad community, of the hostage families that they had representatives called up on that stage. I think they'll see that as a really important signal that their cause is not forgotten, that even as there are celebrations welcoming Romi and Emily and Doron back, that this is not a box that has been checked, but rather a recognition that this is a job not yet finished.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So with that in mind, Julie, what are your priorities? What are AJC's priorities with this new administration?

Julie Fishman Rayman:  

We are looking for every opportunity to engage with this administration, as closely as we did with the last around the issues that are really important to AJC. First and foremost, of course, that is support for Israel, that is making sure that the US-Israel relationship remains strong, that the United States is continuing to play a vital role in supporting Israel on the world stage, whether that's at the UN, with European partners and so on. And lifting up our vital ally in this moment. 

And not secondarily, just secondarily in terms of how I'm talking about it, but of equal importance is working with this administration to counter antisemitism. In all its forms, from all its sources. We worked really hand in glove with the Biden administration on not just creating but implementing the first ever US National Strategy to Counter Antisemitism. 

And I think it's, it's fair to say that there were a lot of phenomenal successes that came out of that strategy. And now it's a matter of working with the incoming administration officials, and the President himself, to make sure that we are moving forward. That this idea that it requires the whole of government and all of society to be working together, to be working in tandem and coordination, in lock step to counter antisemitism.

That strategy in and of itself, is critical. So whether it's something written on paper or implemented in that way, or whether it's, you know, appointing a coordinator, or what have you, we are here, and we're ready to be a part of that process.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Julie, thank you so much for joining us the day after the inauguration and all of the many changes that began to unfold. Thank you.

Julie Fishman Rayman:

Thanks for having me, Manya.

One in five U.S. Jews reported that local businesses where they live have been the target of antisemitism in the past five years, revealed AJC's State of Antisemitism in America 2023 Report, published this week.

To dive deeper into this concerning trend, we spoke with Adam Deutsch who, since October 8, has displayed a “We Stand With Israel Sign” in the window of his Scarsdale, NY ice cream shop. In January, his storefront was spray painted with the words “genocide supporters.” Hear from Deutsch on how his local community rallied against this hateful action and why he’s been even more vocal about his support for the Jewish state and prouder to be Jewish.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Adam Deutsch

Show Notes:

Listen – People of the Pod on the Israel-Hamas War:

• How A 10/7 Survivor is Confronting Anti-Israel Activists on College Campuses

• Tal Shimony Survived the Hamas Attack on the Nova Music Festival: Hear Her Story of Courage, Resilience, and Remembrance

• How to Mark International Holocaust Remembrance Day in a Post-October 7th World

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Transcript of Interview with Adam Deutsch:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

The contrast was stark. The words “genocide supporters” scrawled in black spray paint across the windows. On the other side of the glass, giant stuffed animals and pillows embroidered with the abbreviation for I love you so much. This was the scene one morning in January at The Scoop Shop, an ice cream and gift store at a shopping plaza in Scarsdale, New York. The vandals also left their mark on a nearby boutique. Both stores had one thing in common: Jewish owners. 

This week, AJC released The State of Antisemitism in America 2023 Report, which for the first time found that one in five American Jews reported local businesses where they live had been the target of antisemitism in the past five years. 

With us to talk about the incident in January is the owner of the Scoop Shop, Adam Deutsch. 

Adam, welcome to People of the Pod.

Adam Deutsch:  

Thank you for having me.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Adam, if you wouldn't mind walking us through that morning when you discovered the graffiti on your storefront.

Adam Deutsch:  

Sure. So my brother actually got a call, we're partners, got a call around 7am rrom the people who do the maintenance in the shopping center. They were with the police who actually noticed the graffiti. So we got a call from them saying that something was written on the store window. 

My brother was in the middle of getting ready to drop his kids off at school so he was planning on coming right after that. He called me. And we met over there and they were already starting to clean it off. But at first I couldn't really read what it said. The handwriting was very mishy mashy. 

But once we actually saw it, we realized that it was not good. Not like it would have been good anyway, graffiti on the store. But we realized it had something to do with the fact that we supported Israel or that we were Jewish or something along those lines. We weren't positive at first.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So how did the vandals know to target your business? 

Adam Deutsch:  

So we have a sign that says We Support Israel with the Israeli flag in our storefront window. I think it was October 8, someone came to the shopping center and asked if we would put it up. We said absolutely. So we've had it up for a few months. A few shops in the shopping center do as well, the other store that was vandalized did also. 

So I don't think it had anything to do with the fact that I'm Jewish, necessarily. Because how would they know that? However, the fact of what they wrote, that they believe what's going on in Israel is genocide made them write what they wrote.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So how did law enforcement respond? And I'm also curious if the shopping plaza’s staff contacted law enforcement when they contacted you and your brother?

Adam Deutsch:  

The police were actually, they do rounds in the shopping center. They do like a drive by all the time. So the police actually are the ones that saw what happened, the New Rochelle police department. They, the guys who do the maintenance of the shopping center were changing the garbages at the time. So it was like they told them, they called us. But there was a lot of police presence. And you know, the district attorney's office and there was FBI. I thought it was handled very well.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So it sounds like they did report it as a hate crime.

Adam Deutsch:  

Yeah, so it was originally being reported as a possible hate crime. So I know that they have not caught the person. But I was also told that since it was written on glass, as opposed to brick, which is not permanent. And the fact that it wasn't really derogatory towards Jews or towards any group, that it wouldn't have been a hate crime. If they got caught, they wouldn't have been arrested for a hate crime.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I should add that the AJC survey found that a vast majority of American Jews and American adults, 93% of Jews, 91% of the American public, believe it's important that law enforcement report hate crimes, or even be required to report hate crimes to a federal government database. 

So I wonder if your incident is going to be reported and recorded since it was on glass. So bizarre. 

So and neighbors, how did the neighbors respond?

Adam Deutsch:  

First of all within the first–this was at eight o'clock in the morning, by the time we got there, within the first half hour of us being there, my phone received probably 20-30 text messages. Someone created this flyer that they were planning on doing an ice cream social get together and a pro-Israel rally at four o'clock. 

I was planning on working by myself because it's January in an ice cream store, it's pretty quiet. I right away started texting all my employees, who are in high school. So I knew they couldn't get there until after three o'clock. But I said you got to come. I need everyone here. 

Not knowing exactly what it was gonna be like. But, you know, I was getting texts from everyone, people who belong to all different temples saying that their temple sent this out or, this group on Facebook sent this out. It was building a lot of steam. I was like, something’s gonna be crazy today. 

It was already crazy what we woke up too, but I wasn't expecting it to really inflate business. But I mean, literally from 8:15 in the morning when I walked into the store until 10:30 at night, I didn't sit down once. 

It's still hard for me to grasp what has happened in these last few weeks. But the support from the community and the words that we're getting from everyone, and I mean, I shook hands with more rabbis in the last couple of weeks than I have since my bar mitzvah for sure.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I am curious, though, if you changed anything that you did – I've been asking you, how did law enforcement respond? How did neighbors respond? How did you respond? 

Adam Deutsch:  

Aside from being an ice cream shop, we're also a custom gift store. So we do custom shirts, water bottles. We print and we do stuff for teams and schools and everything like that. 

So that morning, my brother had to go to our office, and he was doing an order for a bat mitzvah that weekend. So he literally went to the office, the first thing he did was, he printed five or six more signs, t-shirts that said we stand with Israel and the Scoop Shop logo and the Israeli flag. 

We now have five signs in the front window. He made a few thousand stickers that we were handing out to everyone. We were wearing t-shirts that said, you know that we stand with Israel. And I mean, we've doubled down and we I mean we're standing pretty strong. So that's the biggest thing that changed is that we have more support for Israel signage than we did before.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Had you ever been targeted personally before by antisemitism? 

Adam Deutsch:  

Personally, no. However, in December, my daughter, there was an incident at her school where her and a couple of her friends were just sitting in class, she's in sixth grade. And a kid went up to them and started making some antisemitic comments to them. Not even knowing that they were Jewish, but like, he then asked them if they were Jewish. So the fact that this all happened, and I didn't really put two and two together at first, and I still don't think there's any connection at all. The school handled that. 

But I grew up in New Rochelle, and it's a very large city, and there's a lot of Jewish people in one part of town, and non-Jewish in another part of town and not like it's like, segregated like that. But like, there was always people who just didn't know or didn't understand. And, you know, just thought of us Jews as different, which is the same as it is in the world today. I knew it growing up, but I didn't think twice about it. I mean, I've never seen it as bad as it is now.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

What sets AJC's survey apart from others is that it measures perceptions of antisemitism, both among American Jews and the American public. And I'm curious what your perception was, before this happened or before October 7 did you sense that antisemitism was already on the rise or not so much?

Adam Deutsch:  

I mean, it's been in the news a lot for the past few months. So like, since October 7, I mean, that's really what put it in my head more like, I always knew it was out there, but I never really thought it was more than usual or that it was more than other races or religion. 

You know, I didn't think it was different than other groups of people. But just seeing on the news since October 7, and everything like that, you see, I mean, literally every, every day on the news, there's something that says the word antisemitism, every day on Facebook, on Instagram, on anything I see online, it's, you hear the word antisemitism.

But I never really saw it in my hometown. I didn't really think it was going to affect me personally, like, at work, or anything like that. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Were you afraid? 

Adam Deutsch:  

No. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Or are you afraid? 

Adam Deutsch:  

No. From what happened at the store, I mean, the person was honestly the worst vandal I've ever seen. They wrote a little spray paint on the glass that was literally taken down in five minutes, they wore masks, they were scared. During the rally, there was a rally, and someone came, a pro-Palestine person came wearing a mask, it's like, you're gonna come and talk smack, show who you are. Don't be, you know, don't hide behind something. If you have something to say, say it. 

I mean, I'm not a tough guy by any means. And I'm all for fun, and, you know, not controversy. But if you have a point to make, make it. These people literally came, spray painted in the morning. It's like, if you got something to say, say it to my face.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So how do you talk to your children about this, especially since they've encountered some difficulty themselves? Or at least your daughter has?

Adam Deutsch:  

Yeah. So I mean, look, I watch the news every morning. My kids are getting ready for school. And like, we have like our morning routine, where I'm sitting on the couch at one spot, drinking my coffee, my son's in one other area, getting ready for school, on his iPad, my daughter's doing her thing, my wife's doing her thing. But the news is always on in the background. And it just, you hear it. So like they ask me, you know, what does that mean when they hear the word antisemitism, and you know, we tell them, there are hateful people out there. And a lot of people don't like Jews. I mean, we tell them this has happened for a long, long time, and it's going to continue to happen, but we have to just be strong and be proud of who we are. And they get it, I think, but they're not scared. They're not worried. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Do you think you would have been so brave as to increase your show of support for Israel if the community hadn't rallied around you?

Adam Deutsch:  

Look, to be honest with you, we have the sign in our window, but I haven't really thought much. I mean, I see it every day when I walk in and out of the door. But other than that, it hasn't really crossed my mind too much to be honest with you. I'm not proud of that. Because obviously what's going on over there…I mean, I hear it on the news and I know what's going on, but I'm wrapped up in what's going on in my world here. 

But now that this happened, and the showing of support and the amount of people coming in and thanking us, we're doubling down and putting more signs up, and just telling us how proud they are, and how much they appreciate it.

I mean, all I did was put a sign in the window. I mean, I didn't do anything heroic. I had someone come up to me and said, You're a hero. I mean, that was like, what? You know, that was a little odd, I'm not gonna lie. But, you know, I understand what they're saying. Because we have a way to show to the community that we stand with Israel, because I have a big storefront window that gets a lot of eyeballs on it. But all I did was put a sign in the window and opened my store for business. I don't feel like I did anything really special.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Have you been kind of part of the Jewish community? Are you part of a congregation, or not really?

Adam Deutsch:  

Yeah, my kids go to Hebrew school. We're raising our kids in the town that we grew up in, New Rochelle. My kids went to nursery school at Kehila, which is at Temple Israel in New Rochelle. That's where we belong as congregants. My daughter is going to be Bat Mitzvahed there in two years, we just got her date a month and a half ago. I mean, we're in it.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I'm just curious if you've had conversations within that community. I mean, you said it was odd to be called a hero for putting a sign in your window. But I'm curious if other people have expressed reticence about showing their support for Israel, because of what's happening?

Adam Deutsch:  

I see a lot of people in the store, from my temple and from all the different temples around just because we're right in the middle of everything. So people have come up to me and told me that they're glad that we did what we did. 

So I got a lot of calls at the store from different rabbis or different clergy from all different religions. When it first happened, but I got a call on my cell phone from my rabbi. So that was, a nice feeling, to get a call from your rabbi. He brought his kids to the, to the rally. I mean, it was knowing that even though I'm not really doing anything, I'm representing either my temple or my people. That's the least I can do.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Have you been to Israel?

Adam Deutsch:  

I have not. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So what prompted you to show such support for a place where you've never been?

Adam Deutsch:  

I mean, I've wanted to go for forever. I do have family that is from there. Plenty of my family members have been there. I just have never had the opportunity. When I was growing up. I mean, birthright wasn't really like a thing. It happened, like a few years after, like, I just like it started really becoming a popular thing after I was, you know, already working full time, and I didn't have time to go travel or do anything like that. But that would have been an amazing thing to do. 

We’cr talked about maybe doing my daughter's Bat Mitzvah in Israel. Now we're not really keen on going there at this moment, you know, but we'd love to, at some point, get there for sure.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

AJC’s State of Antisemitism in America 2023 Report found that a majority of American Jews, 8 in 10, said that when thinking about what being Jewish means to them, caring about Israel is important. Do you agree?

Adam Deutsch:  

Yeah, I mean, it's our place, it's our land. I'm not gonna say our country because it's like, it's not my country. I'm not Israeli. But I feel like it's the land of the Jewish people. It's our homeland. It's where we could all go, we should be able to all go and feel like we belong here. We are here as one.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Adam, the survey’s findings that we've been talking about here certainly show that I'm not alone in occasionally feeling alone as a Jew. Isolated. Once in a while, not all the time. But not always fully free to express my Jewish identity, my anxiety and concern about what's going on. And I host a podcast in the Jewish space. So I can only imagine how others who aren't regularly in this space must feel. What do you say, especially based on what has happened, what do you say to people who have felt that way? 

Adam Deutsch:  

I just think that it's important to know that people are gonna disagree with your beliefs and your feelings and who you are. And it happens all over the world, it happens everywhere. But don't let that change how you feel or how you act because whether you don't see it or feel it on an everyday basis, you have so many people in your corner and that have your back. 

It's like, I can't even put into words the appreciation I have for all the people in the community that have come out and continue to come out. And my brother and I looked at each other and we knew it was going to be busy that day, because there were rumblings. 

We never could have imagined in a million years. That would have been what it was and continued to be what it's been. It's incredible. It's incredible. And we're so grateful for it. 

A terrible thing happened. Not even though they did a good job on it, because like I said, they wrote a little spray paint, they wore a mask. 

But the stupid thing they did turn into an amazing coming together of the community and I'm glad that I can be a part of it because it made me, it made me really just sit back and think for a second how proud I am to be Jewish and to know that my people have gone through stuff like this and a million times worse than this. And we're still here and we're not going anywhere.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Adam, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your experience. 

Adam Deutsch:  

Thank you. I do appreciate it.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

If you missed last week’s episode, be sure to tune in for my conversation with Israeli filmmaker Yoni Diller who escaped the Supernova Music Festival on foot, walking for hours through southern Israel’s desert to safety.

How will the killing of Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar affect Israel's security and regional stability? What are the implications for the 101 hostages still held by Hamas?

Join us as AJC Jerusalem Director Lt. Col. (res.) Avital Leibovich and AJC Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer Jason Isaacson discuss the Israeli Defense Forces' recent elimination of the terror leader responsible for orchestrating the October 7 attacks and thousands of deaths. They’ll break down the impact of the unfolding situation and what comes next. 

Watch – Israel Update: Analyzing the Impact of Yahya Sinwar’s Death - AJC Advocacy Anywhere

Listen – AJC Podcasts:

• The Forgotten Exodus: with Hen Mazzig, Einat Admony, and more.

• People of the Pod: 

• From Doña Gracia to Deborah Lipstadt: What Iconic Jewish Women Can Teach Us Today

• The Nova Music Festival Survivor Saved by an 88-Year-Old Holocaust Survivor

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

__

Transcript of Conversation with Jason Isaacson and Avital Leibovich:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Last week, Israeli Defense Forces killed Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar, the architect of the October 7 terror attacks. His death comes two months after the murder of six hostages who he had been using as his human shields. What comes next? How will Sinwar's death impact the dynamics within Hamas and the broader conflict between Israel and other Iran-backed proxies? What are the potential implications for Israel's security and regional stability? And what does this mean for the 101 hostages still being held by Hamas? 

For answers to those pressing questions, AJC welcomed its Jerusalem director, Lt. Colonel Avital Leibovich and Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer Jason Isaacson, for an in-depth analysis of the unfolding situation. Here's a portion of that conversation. 

Jason Isaacson:  

Thanks very much. Before we begin our discussion, Avital, please allow me to again express to you, my and all our AJC colleagues and supporters' gratitude for your consistent availability throughout this difficult, dangerous period, to brief the AJC family on the challenges that Israel faces, the trauma that Israel suffered on October 7, on and onward, and the remarkable resilience of the people of Israel in the face of terrorism. Allow me also to wish you and your family and our AJC colleagues in Jerusalem a healthy and, let's hope, a more peaceful New Year. 

We are meeting now one week after a major development, perhaps even a turning point in Israel's necessary war against Hamas, the killing of the terrorist organization's leader, the murderous mastermind of October 7, Yahya Sinwar by the IDF in Rafah in southern Gaza. I want to hear your thoughts on the ramifications of that successful operation, which has been praised by the US and other world leaders. But first, let me ask you two questions.

First, how was the IDF able to finally track down this most-wanted war criminal. And second, how did Sinwar's elimination figure in Israel's set of priority objectives for the self defensive campaign that it has been conducting in Gaza?

Avital Leibovich:  

Thank you, Jason, for your kind opening words, and it's always good to be with you here on another what I think will be an interesting session for our listeners. So it was the day of October 16, few days ago, IDF troops, actually reserve units, were working in a neighborhood in Rafah called El Sultan neighborhood. This is approximately one kilometer from Israel, so it's a relatively short distance, they have identified. 

These soldiers have identified three suspicious figures, between moving from one area to another, between buildings. And they fired towards the suspects, and then the group split into two. Two of them stayed in one area and another one stayed in another building. And in order to make sure that buildings are not booby trapped, so the forces are not endangered, what the IDF often does, it sends a drone with a camera inside the building, searching and checking out to see who is exactly there, and then they saw on a couch in the corner of a living room.

This was, by the way, a very fancy villa in this neighborhood. They saw a figure sitting there, with his head covered, with his face covered, and armed with a weapon, with grenades, and they fired. They understood that this is a terrorist, and they fired towards that person. 

Because, again, there was danger of the amount of explosives that were placed in this specific house, it took only 24 hours until the forces return and then search the house. When they got to this terrorist sitting on the arm chair, they suddenly realized that it looked very similar to Sinwar. But in order to check, you know whether it was Sinwar or not, they had to take a DNA sample from one of his fingers. And Sinwar has been in Israeli prisons for many years, and therefore his DNA samples is already there. So it took a few more hours, and then it was identified, finally, as Yahya Sinwar.

And of course, it was a big press briefing announcement by the Prime Minister, by the army and so on. What else was found on his body was the following: a small gun, a big rifle, flak jacket filled with different kinds of grenades, 40,000 shekels, which is equivalent of something like $12,000 in cash, a passport--of someone else--an UNWRA certificate of another person. Another identity. And that's more or less what was found. 

The two others that split from him and went to another house were actually his bodyguards. Later on, when the army searched deeper, it reached a conclusion that the tunnel that six hostages were held in and were murdered viciously by Hamas just six weeks before, were just a few 100 meters from where Sinwar was, and they also found out that actually they served as human shields for Sinwar until he escaped. So basically he was running from one place to another until he was found that day, 16 of October in that building.

Jason Isaacson:  

How high on the list of Israel's military objectives in Gaza was the elimination of Sinwar?

Avital Leibovich:  

So, yeah, you can imagine that, since he's the number one terrorist of Hamas, and he is the mind behind October 7, obviously he was ranked very high on the list of Most Wanted. I can say that his brother, Muhammad, is still on that list. And Israel has announced already that it will hunt Muhammad as well. And I think that there was a ray of light on October 17. It was exactly when it was announced officially that Sinwar was eliminated. I think every Israeli home was as much as we could under the circumstances express joy that Sinwarwas gone.

Jason Isaacson:  

You could imagine supporters of Israel around the world and our country, but all over, I think, shared that sentiment as well. But let's talk about the ramifications now of Sinwar's death for Hamas and also for the Islamic Republic of Iran, which has provided money, weapons training guidance to Hamas. I have a few related questions. First, Hamas has already put forward the claim that its fight continues, that it isn't relinquishing its hold on Gaza. Can Hamas still legitimately make that claim, that it is in control in Gaza?

Avital Leibovich:  

So I think that if we're looking at, you know, the comments from all over the world regarding primarily the terror groups in Iran, we see a lot of support for the way of Hamas.. Sinwar was actually painted as a shahid, a martyr, as someone who fought until the very last minute, who act in a very brave way. In other words, it's some kind of glorification for Sinwar, but also for Hamas, in another way. I have to say that even the PLO, the Executive Committee of the PLO actually offered condolences for the death of Sinwar, which was also quite disturbing, I have to say. 

And Abu Mazen's party Fatah, one of the members of the Fatah, the guy by the name of Abbas Zaki, said that Sinwar has chosen, and I'm quoting, "An exit worthy of his heroism and the heroism of his people." So that's the mood in the Palestinian Street, and that's the mood among the other Arab terror groups, Muslim terror groups, extremists in Iran, in Hezbollah and other places. So the question is, what are now Israel's immediate goals in Gaza following Sinwar's death. So Israel has been concentrating in one main area, and this is an area very close to the envelope of Gaza. It's what we call northern part of Gaza, primarily an area called Jabalia. 

Jabalia is a place that, according to the Israeli intelligence, unfortunately, there has been a big crowding of Hamas terrorists who are taking shelters in schools or in local civilian facilities where civilians are. So Israel has been trying to encourage the population to go out of this part of Gaza, northern Gaza. It has been doing so by leaflets, by phone calls, by messages on their phones and so on. The problem was, the challenge was with this situation, that Hamas prohibited the population of leaving. But when Sinwar died, this has changed, and we saw two interesting things in the Palestinian Street in Gaza. Number one, people have started to move from the northern part of Gaza. Actually, 20,000 people already relocated from that area. We saw 150 Hamas terrorists turn themselves in. 

But we also saw, Jason, another thing which we have not seen in a long time. And these are multitudes of Gazans which are not being afraid to speak to the camera with their faces totally uncovered, exposed and cursing Hamas and cursing Sinwar and wanting a better future for themselves. So this is actually, this phenomenon is actually growing more and more. So while Israel is working in Jabalia, there's a still part of the army which is working in Rafah, in the Rafah area, Tel Sultan is one of the neighborhoods, as we mentioned before. So it's still very tactical. There are still a lot of rockets that are flowing in from from Gaza. We're not at the end, at this point of time. And if you'd like, we can dig into the numbers of you know, the achievements that Israel has in Gaza. 

Jason Isaacson:  

Yeah, stay on this for a second. This is fascinating. I mean, it sounds like what you're sayingis that the kind of the culture of fear that Hamas has used to basically make it impossible for Palestinians to think of an alternative form of governance or an alternative relationship with Israel, that culture is at least been been damaged by the death of Sinwar, not eliminated, probably, but certainly weakened, which does give you some hope that there can be a day after in which there's a very different governing structure, a very different mentality in that exists in Gaza.

Avital Leibovich:  

About the whole part, I'm not so sure. I have to say I want to be very hopeful, but we're not there yet. And I'll tell you why.

Jason Isaacson:  

Long term, long term.

Avital Leibovich:  

Long term, for sure, I'll tell you, but I want to be more concise in my answer, because you know, one of the things I'm sure people are asking themselves, is: is Sinwar replaceable? So I want to share with you six figures that are the potential list for replacing Sinwar. Number one is Khaled Mashal, is a well known personality. He's currently the head of what we call the external Hamas leadership. As you know, Hamas has two other countries, which they are based in. Qatar in Turkey. He served also as the predecessor of Sinwar, and he lives in Qatar. That's number one. 

Number two, Musa Abu Mazug. It's another known figure. He was in Sinwar's position a long time ago. He lives in Qatar as well. Then we have Muhammad Al-wish. He is the head of the Hamas Shura Council. He's considered, actually a shadow figure, and does not appear in public too much, but he deals with Hamas policy, and he lives in Qatar. He's known for his connections with the Iranians. The next person is Khalil al Haya. He is the deputy head of the political bureau of Hamas. Actually, he is the deputy of Sinwar. I would say he's more kind of a gray kind of figure. He lives in Qatar. He also has some involvement on ceasefire and negotiation talks, release of the hostages. 

And then we have Muhammad Nazal, another member of the Hamas political bureau, one of the most prominent spokespeople for the Hamas terror group. And the last one is Zaher Jabarin, member of the Hamas political bureau since 2021 and he's also in charge of the Judea Samaria area, or the West Bank, and he lives in Turkey. So these are the potential replacements for Sinwar. And the question here really remains, who will take the lead, whether it will be another figure from Gaza, or will it be an external figure? 

And of course, each of the options has its own consequences. So if we're looking at Qatari based Hamas leaders, which have which are more prone to pressure from the US or from other countries. That's one reason to be optimistic vis a vis maybe a future deal with the hostages. But if we're looking at someone from Gaza, or someone from the West Bank will come to Gaza, then I think we're looking at more of the same kind of scenario. So this is where we are in terms of the current situation in Hamas and Hamas leadership. Let's see what conclusion they will reach. 

Jason Isaacson:  

Sinwar's brother is not considered in line for promotion?

Avital Leibovich:  

So you know, the opinions here vary. There are those who say that since he's hunted by Israel, then he will not have the capability to deal with it. There are others that say that he is a natural replacement. But I gave you the list on purpose so you can understand that the options are not just one or two people, but more than that.

Jason Isaacson:  

So let's talk about what the implications of Sinwar's death are for the fate of the hostages. It's been over a year. There are 101 still held, many of them no longer alive. We understand a desperate situation in brutal captivity held by Hamas. What AJC was hearing before the death of Sinwar, when we were having meetings on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly with people who had intimate knowledge of the negotiating process with Hamas,was that there had been no response for a month from Sinwar on the possibility of a hostage release-ceasefire deal. Does the death of Sinwar make it harder, make it easier to be able to resume negotiations? What is your sense? 

Avital Leibovich:  

So yeah, that's the big question. The big question is, now, who is in control? Because with Sinwar gone, obviously Hamas in Qatar will have the capability to influence more. He was the main barrier to any deal that was proposed. That's the reason that a few days ago, earlier this week, the head of Shabaq Secret Services was rushed to Egypt with some kind of an offer. And actually, when Secretary Blinken just ended his visit a few hours ago in Israel, what he said next to his plane before he left was about his, I would say, strategy for the potential hostage deal. 

And the strategy says that, instead of going for the big deal of 101 hostages with stages, you know, being released in different stages, let's try to feel the water. And let's say we are talking about a smaller deal with a minimal amount of time for ceasefire, with just a few hostages that will be released. So in other words, not a very threatening deal, but something to work with. And here again, the question is, if the Hama leadership in Qatar will be able to go along with this kind of deal, I think we're in a very, very narrow window of opportunities. 

And I think this is the reason why Secretary Blinken isnot leaving the area yet, and he's continuing from one Arab capital to another. I know that he is in Riyadh now, and he's still continuing to other areas tomorrow as well. So that really remains the question. Whether the leadership of Hamas in Qatar will have the capability to lead a deal, even a smaller deal. If that will come across, then we can open the window wider and we can shoot for a bigger deal. You're right. 

There are 101 hostages held in horrible conditions, terrible conditions. Some of the bodies, you know, Jason, that were retrieved to Israel, were weighed. And a girl who is 24 years old, was weighing 36 kilograms.That equals to a weight of a third grader, something like that. So we do understand that it'severy day that passes is critical. The estimation is that there are 44 hostages which are no longer living. But the number may be higher because the intelligence information isas you know, not 100%.

Jason Isaacson:  

Thank you, Avital.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

To listen to the rest of their conversation, head to the link in our show notes, and if you missed last week's episode, be sure to tune in to the conversation between my colleague Alexandra Herzog and author Aliza Lavie about her latest book, "Iconic Jewish Women."

This week, we’re in conversation with Eli Rosenbaum, Director of Human Rights Enforcement Strategy and Policy at the Department of Justice. For 40 years, Rosenbaum has helped the department track down former Nazis and hold them accountable for their World War II crimes, a role that has earned him the moniker of “Nazi Hunter”. 

Then, Shira Loewenberg, Director of AJC's Asia Pacific Institute (API) speaks about the wide-scale democracy protests across Myanmar in the weeks since the local military’s February 1 coup d'état. 

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Episode Lineup: 

(00:40) Eli Rosenbaum

(19:45) Shira Loewenberg

(22:37) Manya Brachear Pashman

(25:31) Seffi Kogen

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Episode Transcript

Episode Lineup:

(0:41) David Harris

(19:02) Manya Brachear Pashman and Marcia Bronstein

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Show Notes:

AJC’s Emergency #StandWithUkraine Fund

Urge Congress to stand with Ukraine

Listen to our latest episode: Live from Kyiv: The Future of Ukraine and its Large Jewish Community

Don’t forget to subscribe to People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

This week, the Israeli Supreme Court handed down a ruling on conversions conducted by non-Orthodox rabbis. We hear from AJC's Director of Contemporary Jewish Life Laura Shaw Frank, a leading thinker on this important issue, about how this decision will affect the Israel-Diaspora relationship.

Then, in celebration of International Women’s Day, Director of AJC’s Jacob Blaustein Institute for the Advancement of Human Rights Felice Gaer reflects on what it means to see the world and human rights through women’s eyes.

 _____

Episode Lineup: 

(00:40) Laura Shaw Frank

(17:10) Felice Gaer 

(19:38) Manya Brachear Pashman

(23:34) Seffi Kogen

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Episode Transcription 

In America today we are faced with the rise of extremism at both ends of the political spectrum. This week, we examine the interplay between progressive groups and American Jews, who are being increasingly excluded and targeted by so-called progressives, especially over ties to Israel, the Middle East’s only liberal democracy. David Baddiel, Comedian, Author, Screenwriter, and Television Presenter; Rachel Fish, Co-Founder, Boundless; and Yair Rosenberg, Contributing Writer, The Atlantic, delve into this important topic in a thought-provoking conversation, recorded live at AJC Global Forum 2022.

The episode opens with short interviews featuring AJC Global Forum 2022 participants about their top highlights.

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Episode Lineup:

(0:40) Manya on the Street: Live from Global Forum 2022

(3:54) David Baddiel, Rachel Fish, Yair Rosenberg

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Show Notes:

AJC Global Forum 2022 Sessions referenced in the episode:

• Official Address from Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky to AJC Global Forum 2022
• AJC Presents Moral Courage Award to Masih Alinejad Introduced By Lisa Pruzan
• Winds of Change: The New Middle East
• Jews, Israel, and Progressive Spaces: Are They Compatible? - Full Video 

To view additional videos and highlights from AJC Global Forum 2022, go to AJC.org/GlobalForumNews

Urge the White House to Combat Domestic Antisemitism

Listen to our latest episode: Bari Weiss on How Antisemitism Became Normalized; Gearing Up for AJC Global Forum 2022

Don’t forget to subscribe to People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

Controversy erupted at the UC Berkeley Law school this fall over the decision by a handful of student groups to adopt bylaws that would ban Zionist speakers. In response, American Jewish Committee (AJC) united with 35 other Jewish organizations to condemn the ban as a “vicious attempt to marginalize and stigmatize the Jewish, Israeli, and pro-Israel community… This is unabashed antisemitism.”

This week, Dr. Ethan Katz, Associate Professor of History and Jewish Studies at Berkeley, and co-founder of the Antisemitism Education Initiative, and Charlotte Aaron, a Berkeley Law student and board member of the Jewish Student Association (JSA), sat down with Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman, AJC's Senior Director of the Alexander Young Leadership Department, to discuss the situation on campus, how it has affected their work as Jewish activists, and why they remain hopeful for the future of Jews on campus.

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Episode Lineup:

(0:40) Ethan Katz and Charlotte Aaron

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Show Notes:

Exclusive: Pro-Israel Groups Release a Statement on Berkeley Controversy

Listen to our latest podcast episode: Unpacking the Origins of Kanye’s Antisemitism

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

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Episode Transcript

Manya Brachear Pashman: At the start of this academic year, members of Law Students for Justice in Palestine at the University of California’s Berkeley campus persuaded nine student groups to adopt a bylaw banning speakers who support Zionism. 35 Jewish organizations, including AJC, wrote an open letter to the university pointing out this discrimination and demanding action. When Jewish student leaders expressed their gratitude to AJC earlier this week, CEO Ted Deutch assured them that AJC’s efforts would not end there. For this week’s episode, we invited a Berkely educator and law student to discuss what the controversy means for them and their fellow Jewish faculty and students on campus. They sat down with my occasional co-host Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman, AJC's Director of the Alexander Young Leadership Department. Take it away, Meggie.

Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman: Joining me today on People of the Pod: Dr. Ethan Katz, Associate Professor of History and Jewish Studies at UC Berkeley. And Charlotte Aaron, who is a second year law student at UC Berkeley. Ethan & Charlotte, thank you for joining me.

Ethan Katz: Thanks for having us. 

Charlotte Aaron: Thank you.

Meggie: So, in the last few weeks, there has been significant coverage about events at UC Berkeley Law School, and particularly about what appears to be exclusionary, anti Israel adoptions made by a handful of student groups. So for our listeners who may not have the full story, Ethan, can you paint a brief picture for us of what has unfolded?

Ethan: Sure. So in August, I believe it was actually on the first day of classes. There was a decision by several student clubs, eight, I believe, at UC Berkeley Law to adopt a set of bylaws that had been proposed to them, by Students for Justice in Palestine, at the law school, the SJP chapter at the law school. Now that was a proposal made to dozens of clubs at Berkeley law. So it was a relatively small number who adopted these bylaws, but the bylaws were very discriminatory in that they said, these clubs would not invite any speaker who had expressed, continue to express support for Zionism, or what the bylaws referred to as the apartheid regime in Israel, or the occupation of Israel, occupation of Palestine, excuse me, what they clearly mean by that last clause is not what many observers refer to as the occupation of the West Bank, it is just the presence of Israeli sovereignty, in portions of the historical plan of Israel-Palestine.

So these were met with tremendous concern by not only many Jewish law students, but many others of us who were involved in efforts on campus to support Jewish students, I co-run an antisemitism education program at Berkeley, Berkeley Law has a very large Israel studies program. 

And the dean of Berkeley Law came out very strongly to say that he found these to be very problematic, to be against the principles of community of the university, you know, say that every club has the right to free speech, but that becomes very concerning when students are excluded. And he said, I thought, forcefully that, you know, himself, if these bylaws were to be followed to the letter, would not be able to speak at these clubs as someone who himself is a Zionist. He also reminded clubs of the fact that the Chancellor of the University has come out in writing multiple times against the BDS movement.

We were sort of waiting to see what was going to happen next in terms of what was going to be the full impact of these and also what was going to hopefully be the impact of the Dean's response, in curbing this or maybe making some groups reconsider. We did not hear a lot more about this controversy after the initial week or so that it came out until an editorial published in the Jewish Journal of LA almost exactly three weeks ago, claiming in its headline and in its content that Berkeley was developing so-called Jewish free zones. 

This quickly ignited a firestorm in the media and major controversy. And it brought the issue much more into focus not only on campus but off. That had various impacts on campus. One of them was that we felt the need to try to explain what had happened, what we already have in place, which is considerable, to try to support your students and raise awareness about antisemitism. And also to try to better understand where things stood for the Jewish students. and figure out ways that we have not sufficiently met their needs. 

I also think it's important to note that many Jewish undergraduate students who had been unaware or vaguely aware of the initial bylaws became very nervous and concerned in ways that they had not been before about Jewish life on campus. So, the impact of the article was also to create a great deal more anxiety and fear among many students on campus, despite the fact that Jewish life on this campus, generally speaking, is very robust, and in many ways thriving in terms of the success of Hillel and student Chabad, and the number of student clubs and Jewish Studies and Israel studies. So that's sort of a rough timeline.

Meggie: Charlotte, anything to add there?

Charlotte: I think I'll just add the way I felt when I found out what had happened. I arrived at the library Monday morning, first day of school and sat down and five minutes into reading for class, I got a text message from my friend screenshotting the fact that the women of Berkeley Law organization had passed this bylaw. 

And I think it was a mix of heartbreaking and frustrating. I was heartbroken because I spoke to a lot of people on these boards after this happened. And they acknowledged that they themselves didn't really know much about this issue. And wanted to be supportive to their Palestinian classmates, which is incredibly important, and I so support that. But it was heartbreaking to me that we're at a place where people think that this is how you do that, which is just an indication of a lot of misinformation.

And, you know, I for the last decade, almost, I've been worried about social media, and it's especially ramped up in the last five years, and how information is spread and shared. And I think, particularly with this issue, there's a lot of misinformation. And this was a clear demonstration of that, and the impact of that. That law students who, theoretically are pretty informed of what's going on in the world, and what issues are complex and which ones are not, and how to handle those types of issues, weren't even able to take a moment and recognize like, oh, maybe, maybe we should, like do a little bit of research or engage in this issue before we take such an extreme stance, which is what that bylaw was. So I think that that was heartbreaking.

And I was frustrated, because the Jewish students weren't contacted about this. I would have hoped that they would have reached out or somebody would have reached out or I would have heard about it, and I didn't, and a lot of my Jewish friends didn't. And I think that was really frustrating that we weren't being included in this conversation. And it could have been a really great opportunity to engage before creating harm. And that didn't happen. But hopefully, it's a learning experience for everyone.

Meggie: So Charlotte, I want to focus in more on that. You mentioned that heartbreak. And I think sadly, that is something that certainly in different scenarios and other campuses, there have been instances where Jewish students do feel that, that that exclusionary, I guess, kind of heartbreak. I want to focus in on kind of the timeline that Ethan painted of this initially, kind of being adopted months ago, and then having greater coverage brought in recent weeks. So as a student, as a member of the Jewish Law Students Association at Berkeley, what did students feel, what are they feeling now? Or did they even know about it initially months ago, when this was passed. Can you kind of talk about those two stages?

Charlotte: Yeah, so I will say that it was initially really challenging for the Jewish Student Association, because we work, and continue to work really, really hard to be an organization that is welcoming of all Jewish students, regardless of their perspectives on this issue. We issued, the board of the Jewish student organization, published a letter, we first send it to our members, and then to the organizations, to all the student organizations who are invited to add the bylaws to their constitutions, basically saying: Look, this hurts Jewish students, because it forces them to choose between either, you know, denying a part of who they are, or, to be part of an organization or to, you know, exclude themselves. And we're not asking our members to do that. And we hope that you guys also don’t ask your members to do that. After that, the Jewish student organization kind of stepped back, mostly because we don't want to be an organization about Israel.

And that's not our purpose. Our purpose is to be there for all Jewish students. So that organization stopped engaging in this issue. As individuals, there are four of us who still were very concerned about what happened. And we're continuing to work behind the scenes on how to best address this, because it's a really challenging issue. And we wanted to make sure – three out of four of us are board members, how are we going to do this in a way that doesn't make it look like our organization is taking a stance. That was a really big concern to the other board members who, you know, don't want our organization to take a stance, which none of us do. But the optics of that were very challenging. 

So we are navigating that? Do we start a new organization? You know, are we trying to write a letter? Are we directly reaching out to these students? How do we do that? The Dean has been super supportive and offered to help us, but what can he actually do? Like, what do we want him to do? These were really hard questions. 

And so even before the article came out, the four of us were thinking about these things, and meeting and talking and we went to the Palestine 101 event that was put on, and we had students coming up to us at Jewish events, not at Jewish events, saying that they were individually concerned about what had happened. And this was even before the article came out. So yes, it drew public attention. But I do think that students were still quite concerned about what was going on. It just wasn't vocalized.

Meggie: So I want to get to some of those responses once that article came out, and there was greater coverage. So Ethan, you wrote a piece that has been widely shared that in a very eloquent way, expressed your frustrations with how some of these incidents are being portrayed in the broader media. What led you to pen that piece?

Ethan: In the most basic sense, I think the claims made as a headline of that article are false. I share the deepest concerns about what's happened at the law school. And we're doing a lot and we're trying to do more. And, Charlotte, as you know, we're having a meeting this afternoon. There’ve been a lot of meetings. And so there's no question that what's happened needs to be addressed in the most effective way possible. 

We're not on a campus where the administration or large numbers of students are trying to ban Jews from large portions of the campus, which I believe was the implication of such a headline. And so we wanted both to express the fact that we were really disgusted by these bylaws and that they are unquestionably, nakedly discriminatory and many of us believe antisemitic. But to say that this kind of coverage, that it paints a false picture of the campus, and that it's fundamentally unhelpful in the end. We started the antisemitism education initiative that I helped to run three years ago, we put on a lot of programs on campus, we do trainings, we respond to incidents, we created a training module, a training video, a lot of other campuses use the resources that we created. And we do that to support students. And we do that based on conditions on the ground.

If people from outside want to support Jewish students here, that's fantastic. But part of what we're trying to say is, we have this program already in the system, we have this Israel studies program, we have Jewish studies, we have really strong community organizations, come talk to us and say, How can you best support our efforts, rather than effectively throwing a grenade from the outside? 

And I have to say, I mean, you know, what happened most recently, last week on campus, which I think many people have heard about by now was a truck going around the campus with a hologram on it, of Adolf Hitler, saying something like, you know, if you believe that Jews should be banned from Berkeley, raise your right hand. This was done by an organization that claimed to be looking out for Jewish students and to be very concerned. And just like that initial article raised a lot of alarm among Jewish students, both off campus and on campus, this, of course, scared many Jews on campus. And I know that it wasn't the intention of the articles that have been written. But by now five articles have been written continuing to claim there are Jewish free zones at Berkeley. Without those articles, those trucks would never have been circling our campus. So, we remain alarmed by the effect of this, and we don't think it's actually helping us respond the most effectively to what's taking place. 

Meggie: So along with the response on campus, there is kind of an inherent issue, or I would say, challenge that is always trying to be examined in situations like this. You had mentioned Charlotte earlier, Dean Chemerinsky, who himself wrote a piece in The Daily Beast. And in it, he acknowledges this tension, he talks about the need to honor free speech, which takes I think, renewed importance at a law school, honor, free speech, but also acknowledge that some of these tactics, including those of banning students who identify as Zionists are indeed at odds with free speech and can fracture student discourse. 

So these are tough questions. But my question and maybe Charlotte we'll start with you. And then Ethan, I'd love your perspective. Do you see this manifesting at Berkeley beyond just this incident? And have you seen these trends in academia more broadly? 

Charlotte: I do think free speech is an issue. When I was a student at Brandeis, I was the undergraduate representative on a university task force for free expression. And the purpose of the task force was to create a set of policies or principles that the university would abide by, to ensure that every student felt like they could have their voices heard and share their perspectives. And I'm a firm believer that, you know, more speech is how we get to the right answers. And if people have really extreme opinions on the left, the right, up, down, and aren't sharing those, then they can never be addressed. And, I mean, I think that this is, this is a perfect example of that, that, only one narrative is being heard. 

Hopefully from this, and I think it's sad that, you know, what I am, Adam, Billy and Noah are trying to do, is being portrayed as silencing Palestinian voices, because what we're trying to do is quite the opposite. And, you know, I went to Law Students for Justice in Palestine events last year, like I want to go to their events. So that A, I know what they're saying, and, you know, know what i might be up against B, maybe there's actually some common ground, which would be great, you know, if we can find common ground, maybe they agree with me on something that I didn't know about. And we can run from there. And C, quite frankly, what a great way to sharpen my tools. I can't possibly prepare to advocate for something I care about if I have no idea what other people are saying. 

Meggie: Ethan, I want to turn to you. How are you seeing this issue of a want to safeguard free speech, but be balanced with the reality that for many Jewish and pro-Israel students, they feel like their ability to proudly speak about their views is being limited because of social implications? How are you seeing this manifest within your work, in particularly so as the co-chair of AJS’s Task Force on Antisemitism and Academic Freedom?

Ethan: Yeah, I mean, I think Charlotte nailed a lot of it. The fact is, we're living in an age where a whole slew of actors across the political spectrum, and also in our own Jewish community, in different perspectives, have a very hard time with robust debate about issues that are dear to them. And the impetus for the creation of that [AJS Task Force on Antisemitism and Academic Freedom] task force was the feeling among certain of our Jewish colleagues, pretty far to the left, that certain conversations about antisemitism on campus, more from the right, were making them feel they could not be critical of Israel without being called antisemitic. 

And I know Palestinian voices are very upset about some of those efforts to shut down conversation. I think, justifiably so. So of course, it is really the height of irony and misfortune to then see the same tactic deployed by pro-Palestinian organizations to say, we can't harbor any kind of real conversation either. I think it's important to note, I mean, we all have, I think some sympathy for the fact that organizations want to create so-called safe spaces for those in solidarity with their causes. 

But these bylaws are not bylaws that say, unless you support the right of the Palestinians to a state you won't be allowed to speak, or unless you recognize the Palestinians are a people, you won't be allowed to speak. Those, I think whilst they would be controversial, some people, most Jewish students would not be offended by those. And I think we would all understand those more as really a matter of sort of visceral sense of safety for Palestinian students. This is so much more sweeping than that. And it really is to just silence the vast majority of Jewish students effectively, and to silence any kind of live debate on these issues. And one of the things that I'm concerned about, and I hear Charlotte is concerned, and that many of us are concerned about is that we will become so kind of siphoned off from each other in our own echo chambers. And that doesn't help anyone’s problems.

Meggie: I know that there are immense challenges, but there are also, and both of you highlighted these in the articles you wrote, there's a lot of opportunity and a lot of positivity happening on campus. So I want to turn to both of you, Charlotte, you are a budding lawyer. So you see both sides of the coin. And Ethan, given your professional purview, you have a long lens of Jewish history, you have seen the many ups and downs of our people. So I want to pose to both of you: what makes you hopeful about the Jewish student experience at Berkeley today, and more broadly, about Jewish life today? Maybe Ethan, we'll start with you.

Ethan: Well, very honestly, I think one of the things that makes me hopeful, and what young Jews today, in many cases, are doing to pursue challenging and complex conversations on these and a host of other issues. We can always find examples of shrill voices and people who don't want to listen to each other. But there are a lot of examples that I think are quite inspiring, brave. You know, I very much appreciated the article that Charlotte and other law students wrote in The Daily Beast, and the clarity with which they have repeatedly said, We're not against Palestinians, we're not against the notion of the rights of Palestinians, what we really want is the opportunity to be engaged in conversation, and to feel that we as Jews, our identities, are able to have a space, there also for their full expression. And I think, you know, there are a lot of people across the country, particularly young, young people who are doing this kind of work, to try to push back on multiple extremes. 

Charlotte: The way that, you know, the bylaws have played out on our campus has, for people who don't really know much about the topic made it look really, really bad to be a Zionist, and I think that's really scary. And a lot of students don't want to engage with that, and, you know, identify themselves as somebody who supports Israel, but a lot of students have and, you know, undergraduates, other graduate students, graduate students at the law school, have come out in a really respectful and I guess proud way to engage in this and, and I was feeling bad for myself before Yom Kippur war like, oh, I'm spending so much time on this I'm not having as much time to work on school like, this is such a bummer and and I did some reflecting on the holiday which I suppose is what it's for.

And it's like, you know what, what a great group of Jewish students that I have the privilege of working with and great Jewish professors and a fantastic Jewish Dean and, Rabbi Adam at Hillel has been phenomenal. And I feel really lucky and encouraged to be surrounded by and working with really great people who share a common goal to just be good, and make the world a better place. And so that's been, that's been really nice. And then, you know, in terms of Jewish life more broadly, I somehow got swept into the Jewish graduate student initiative last year and did like a six-week Jewish learning, ethical learning class online. And it was amazing. And I just was so blown away by how many young Jewish people there were, who wanted to engage with the texts and debate about what we're supposed to be taking away from these and how we can apply them to our lives. I am learning about an aspect of Judaism that is so rich and meaningful, and I do think is making me a better person. And that feels really good. And I think it's doing the same for other young Jewish people. And I'm, that gives me hope about the future. 

Meggie: Thank you both for making time to share your wisdom with our audiences, for the activism and the leadership you're showcasing at Berkeley. And we wish you the best for the rest of the semester. Thank you.

Charlotte: Thank you.

Manya: If you missed last week’s episode, be sure to listen to my conversation with Holly Huffnagle, AJC’s US Director for Combatting Antisemitism. She helps unpack the origins of Kanye West’s conspiracy theories and stereotypes, and why the rapper’s hateful words matter to all of us.

AJC CEO Ted Deutch joins us to discuss the significance of the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting at the Tree of Life and its aftermath, the anniversary, and what it means to Jews around the world after the October 7 attack on Israel, when once again Jews were murdered just for being Jewish.

In the final episode of the Remembering Pittsburgh series, Ted reflects on what being Jewish in the United States feels like at this moment, and how the Jewish community is uniting to overcome yet another challenge.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Ted Deutch

Show Notes:

Listen:

• Remembering Pittsburgh Part 1: Behind the Scenes at the Reimagined Tree of Life

• Remembering Pittsburgh Part 2: What the Family of Tree of Life Victim Joyce Fienberg Wants You to Know About Her Legacy

• Remembering Pittsburgh Part 3: How the #ShowUpForShabbat Campaign Drew Global Solidarity Amid Tragedy

Take Action:

• Urge Congress to Stand Against Rising Antisemitism

Music credits:

• Hevenu Shalom - Violin Heart

• Fire Tree (Violin Version) - Axletree
  

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Episode Transcript:

Manya Brachear Pashman: This month, AJC set out to mark the five-year anniversary of the Pittsburgh Synagogue Shooting at the Tree of Life with a series of episodes exploring this turning point for the American Jewish community. Our first installment aired October 5. Two days later, the Jewish people faced another unprecedented deadly antisemitic attack, this time in Israel. Synagogues stepped up security and families tamped down their fears to take their children to Hebrew school or attend Shabbat services. In the second episode of our series, we sat down with Howard and Marnie Fienberg, who paid tribute to their mother Joyce. In the third installment, we looked back at how the horror drew people to solidarity. 

For this closing episode of the series, I sat down with AJC CEO Ted Deutch, who served as a congressman at the time of the Tree of Life massacre. We discussed this anniversary and its parallels to the October 7 attack on Israel, when once again Jews were murdered just for being Jewish.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Ted, where were you on the morning of October 27, 2018 when you heard about the Tree of Life?   

Ted Deutch: I was a congressman who represented Parkland, where the mass shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas took place. And the morning of Tree of Life, I spoke to a group of high school students from all around South Florida, who participated in a program about how they can become leaders in the community. I spoke with them about what had happened a few months before in Parkland, and what I had seen from high school students in Parkland and how they responded and how you stand up to violence and try to stop it and how you respond to evil and how important it is to use the power that you have as young people. That was literally what I was doing right before I walked out of the Florida Atlantic University auditorium and saw my phone start to buzz with news of Tree of Life.

Everything that I had said to the students in the discussion, that really difficult conversation we had with these students who shared with me their fears of violence, their fears of going to school–those fears hit home really hard for me and for the Jewish community. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: Did you view this as a significant turning point for the Jewish community in America or worldwide?

Ted Deutch: This was something that we dealt with in Europe, we feared, we stood AJC's stood with the Jewish community across Europe as they, as they were attacked over years. I was a member of Congress when we had vigils with the ambassadors from European countries, in memory of lives lost, Jewish lives lost as a result of antisemitic attacks. And here, that morning is a turning point for all of us in the Jewish community, and how we respond, how we view the threat of antisemitism now as a deadly threat to the Jewish community in America, and for the rest of America to see another example of what happens when antisemitism, hatred are running rampant and where it can lead and how dangerous it is.

Manya Brachear Pashman: From your vantage point as a congressman, what shifted on Capitol Hill, if anything, after October 27?

Ted Deutch: Well, I was a member of Congress, but I focused so much of my work on the Jewish community. And we had started a Bipartisan Task Force to Combat Antisemitism in response to what happened in Europe. We never could have imagined something like that happening in our own country, especially in this place. I mean, this is the most idyllic, suburban, lovely neighborhood. I mean, it is, as everyone knows, it is literally Mr. Rogers Neighborhood, right? He lives just a stone's throw from Tree of Life. And so our work became that much more urgent.

And we immediately refocused our efforts and those of us who were committed to fighting antisemitism, to ways that we could ensure the security of the Jewish community, and we immediately started looking at ways to find additional funding for security and and we dug deep into FBI reporting and research into what else is out there and what else they're tracking and what the fears are. And, unfortunately, whether in Congress, now at AJC, that hasn't stopped since.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Did the members of Congress who are not Jewish respond differently?

Ted Deutch: There was real support, and support not just for me and my fellow Jewish members, but for the Jewish community overall. Lots of members of Congress, most, know the Jewish community, many of them have Jewish communities they focus on in their own districts, sometimes large, sometimes very small. But the security concerns became real for every one of them – whether they had a large thousand-family congregation in a major city or a tiny synagogue somewhere in a remote part of the country, everyone felt it, everyone was put on edge, and every member of Congress felt an obligation to respond to that.

I just remember having conversations with colleagues who were people of faith, who went to church. They were so struck by the fact that they came and went every Sunday, walked into their churches, doors were wide open. And the contrast to synagogues where you really need to be committed in so many places to get in so many places to go to synagogue, because you have to go through security, and sometimes you have to check in with the police, and in some places, you have to go through metal detectors. That really, really hit them and I think continues to, especially now.

Every time something happens in Israel, we see a need for greater security at home. In the aftermath of the horrific attack by Hamas. It’s affected Jews, obviously in Israel and around the world and how we view Israel, but we all fear for what could happen in the United States.

Manya Brachear Pashman: You left your job on Capitol Hill and became CEO of AJC just last year. I’m curious whether the horror in Pittsburgh so soon after the Parkland shooting was an inflection point for you and your path?

Ted Deutch: I wasn't thinking about leaving Congress. But when a friend reached out and asked if I'd be interested in being considered for the AJC job, I started reflecting upon the issues that I worked on, and what I had been through. And this fits into a very specific part of that thinking it was. It was the whole series of what happened, the shooting at Stoneman Douglas, and the impact that that had on the community. Then almost in immediate succession, quick succession, this horrific shooting at Tree of Life. First, there was the trauma in our own community, then there was the real trauma in the broader Jewish community. And then, not that they're directly related, but on January 6, when I was sitting in my office with the lights off, and my electronics silenced as the Capitol Police told us to do, and I was sitting in a dark cubicle in our staff office … watching what was happening in the Capitol and listening as people ran by my office and not knowing who they are. Everything was, everyone was so concerned about violence that day and my first thought that day was how grateful I was that I had just moved into this new office and had not yet had an opportunity to hang my mezuzah.

And, right, so where does this fit in? I didn't decide to come to AJC because of some series of traumatic events. But just in terms of a turning point for me, what happened at Tree of Life and how that informed the remainder of my time and I was in Congress and the way I thought about my work, and, and then those fears on January 6, and realizing again, how at risk I felt even in the U.S. Capitol as a Jew. I suppose there is probably a straight line that I didn't see that started that day that led me to where I am now.

Manya Brachear Pashman: So, you’ve been here a year now. How have these events shaped your work since you arrived?

Ted Deutch: AJC's is to enhance the well-being of the Jewish people in Israel, and to advance democratic values. If we go back to Tree of Life, and think about what's transpired since and the rise in antisemitism as we saw it around the country, and on social media, and the many ways that the community has felt at risk. 

The week I started, Kanye West went on his antisemitic rampage on social media on Twitter. The Jewish community is not well if antisemitism is running rampant. So it's why we worked so hard with the White House, it's why we encouraged them to create a national strategy. It's why we brought in special envoys from around the world to meet with the White House to help inform the process. It's why we celebrated the release of the National Strategy to Combat Antisemitism and put together, really devoted a large part of our resources over the past six months, helping to implement the national strategy. And it's why we continue across the country here to look for ways to engage further in fighting antisemitism. By strengthening the relationships we have with others–it’s why we're doing so much more in our intergroup work and interreligious work. 

I just recently visited a new Hindu temple in New Jersey, I think it's the largest, certainly the largest in the United States, one the largest in the world. And it was really meaningful to spend the afternoon with leaders of the Hindu community who, who very much recognize that in many ways our fates in America are intertwined. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: So in our first episode of this series, our producer Atara Lakritz and I went on the last tour of the Tree of Life building. You also walked through the building back in June, before many of the artifacts had been removed. Would you mind reflecting on that experience?

Ted Deutch: When I walked up to the synagogue, I couldn't help but think of my synagogue where I grew up on the other side of Pennsylvania in a lovely community, like Pittsburgh. I was struck that, forget that this was a synagogue, I really couldn't stop thinking that it was inconceivable that that kind of horrible tragedy could happen in a community like that. 

And walking through the synagogue and seeing the site where hatred, and antisemitism, and manifestations, the worst manifestations of antisemitism were brought to this lovely place, in this wonderful synagogue. It was overwhelming to think about what was happening that Shabbat and the fear and terror that people felt as that was happening. That was number one.

Secondly, I walked into the main auditorium where they were gathering all of the things that hadn't yet been taken away to be used in the museum and the memorial that's going to be constructed, that haven't been given back to families. 

There were lots of things that are just not identified, they don't have families to return them to. And to see tallaisim and tefillin and all kinds of items that are used for Jewish rituals and Jewish customs just sitting on this table where they didn't know what they were going to do with them because the synagogue that existed there, the life that existed there, that simple, wonderful community, that was gone. It was gone. 

That community will never be the same. And I think for our community, for the Jewish community, we're really never gonna be the same after what happened there.

Manya Brachear Pashman: You were telling me before we started this conversation that they gave you something during your visit.

Ted Deutch: As I walked through, and they saw how moved I was by this massive display. They came over and made such a kind gesture to me. And of all of the gifts that I've received in all of my travels, as a member of Congress, and now as CEO of AJC, I don't think there's anything that’s as meaningful as the tefillin that they gave me.

I don't know, obviously, I don't know whose it was. And it may well have been someone that was a synagogue member years and years ago. But the connection that I felt at that moment to that community at Tree of Life and the connection that I felt thinking about, not just Tree of Life, but tragedies that have befallen the Jewish people throughout our history. 

And knowing that I was going to return to New York, I was going to have the opportunity to join the Jewish community around the world in overcoming these tragedies, and making sure the world understands why these kinds of attacks will never, they'll never work, they'll never, they'll never defeat the Jewish community. As we endure this really challenging time now in Israel, I've been thinking the same thing.

We've gone through a lot in our history, and we've constantly, constantly overcome, and have grown and have learned and have continued to enrich the world. As Tree of Life rebuilds and will help shape a national and international conversation for years to come about fighting antisemitism. And as we continue to do our work and as Jews around the country and around the world go through whatever security measures they have to to go to synagogue and to drop their kids at day school and Hebrew school and for people to show up for programs at the JCC, there is a defiance that I felt at that moment that is perhaps the most important thing I took away from that day.

Because it was awful. But I'm not going to dwell on how terrible it was. We're going to think about every way we can to honor the memories of the lives that were taken, and to strengthen the Jewish people in their memory as we go forward.

Manya Brachear Pashman: We planned this series and invited you to speak before the October 7th terrorist attack in Israel and the war with Hamas that has unfolded since. At first we wondered whether we should even proceed with this series. How could we focus on anything other than Israel at this moment? Of course, the parallels between the Tree of Life and October 7th are all too stark– Jews are once again being targeted simply because they are Jewish. Can you share your thoughts on this difficult moment for the Jewish people?

Ted Deutch: That sense of unease that all of us felt when we heard that story, like how could that possibly happen in the United States, really, it's an unease and fear that we feel when we've watched what's happened in Israel and when a horrific and brutal and barbaric attack takes place against our family, our brothers and sisters in Israel, we feel that here, and especially when it was, it was unthinkable what happened with this Hamas attack. Just as somebody shooting up a synagogue was unthinkable in America, it again, it puts us on edge, and it makes us redouble our efforts. Not just to fight antisemitism, but to really bring the community together.

What I've really been proud of since this terrible time in Israel began is the way that AJC has responded, not just in putting out meaningful information to help people get the facts and get through this, and to fight back against lies. But the way that we've really worked to bring the community together. 

There are 16 million Jews in the world, out of eight and a half billion people we need to stick together. Moments like Tree of Life remind us of that, and what's been happening in Israel absolutely reminds us of that. That informs so much of what AJC does, and has done in response to Tree of Life and certainly is doing in response to the current situation.

This week, we’re in conversation with Joel Finkelstein, cofounder and director of the Network Contagion Research Institute, a nonpartisan, multidisciplinary research group of experts who study online disinformation, and Pamela Paresky, a senior scholar at the Institute who focuses on the psychology of thriving in a liberal democracy. Both have been sounding the alarm about the dangers of the antisemitic conspiracy theory movement QAnon and they join us to discuss what we can expect next from the movement and how we can take steps to stop it. 

Then we hear from AJC Managing Director of Global Communications Avi Mayer on storytelling and AJC’s Arabic video series, Manya Brachear Pashman on President Biden and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, and Seffi Kogen on the second impeachment trial of former President Donald Trump. 

 ____

Episode Lineup: 

(00:40) Pamela Paresky and Joel Finkelstein

(19:05) Avi Mayer

(21:18) Manya Brachear Pashman

(24:15) Seffi Kogen

_____

Show Notes:

Arabic Video on Protocols of the Elders of Zion

Episode Transcript

When it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the pathway to peace has typically been presented as a choice between a one-state or a two-state solution. Guest host Jason Isaacson, AJC’s Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer, speaks with Avi Melamed, Israeli intelligence and strategic affairs analyst and author of Inside the Middle East: Entering a New Era, about possible other solutions, the impact of the Abraham Accords on the region, and why the story of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not separate from the story of the Middle East.

Then, Natalia Mahmud, AJC Associate Director of U.S. Muslim-Jewish Relations and Program Director of the Muslim-Jewish Advisory Council, joins us to share the traditions she practices with her family during the month of Ramadan.

___

Episode Lineup:

(0:40) Avi Melamed

(17:03) Manya Brachear Pashman and Natalia Mahmud 

___

Show Notes:

Signup here to attend a Muslim-Jewish Advisory Council Iftar on April 22, 2022 near Dallas, Texas 

Urge Congress to Stand with Israel

AJC’s Emergency #StandWithUkraine Fund

Urge Congress to Counter Russian Aggression

Listen to our latest episode: “We Lost a Lot of Leverage”: Freed Iranian Hostage Speaks Out on Iran Negotiations

Don’t forget to subscribe to People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

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This week, on the sidelines of the Democratic National Convention, AJC hosted a program on Israel and the path to peace. Ambassador Thomas R. Nides, former U.S. Ambassador to Israel, Halie Soifer, CEO of the Jewish Democratic Council of America, and Illinois Congressman Brad Schneider (D-IL) joined us for the conversation. AJC’s chief policy officer, Jason Isaacson, who is also the head of AJC's recently launched Center for a New Middle East, was moderating the program. AJC hosted a similar program on the sidelines of the Republican National Convention last month in Milwaukee.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. AJC is a nonpartisan, 501(c)3 nonprofit organization. AJC does not endorse or oppose political parties or candidates.

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Jason Isaacson, Halie Soifer, Brad Schneider, Tom Nides

Show Notes:

Watch:

• Israel and the Path to Peace - AJC at the Democratic National Convention

Listen – People of the Pod:

• Is Centrism the Antidote to Political Polarization and Extremism? A Conversation with Yair Zivan

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

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If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Transcript of Panel with Jason Isaacson, Halie Soifer, Brad Schneider, Tom Nides:

Manya Brachear Pashman:

This week, on the sidelines of the Democratic National Convention, AJC hosted a program on Israel and the path to peace. Joining us for the conversation was Ambassador Tom Nides, former US ambassador to Israel, Halie Soifer, CEO of the Jewish Democratic Council of America, and Illinois Congressman Brad Schneider.

Moderating the program was AJC’s chief policy officer Jason Isaacson, who is also the head of AJC's recently launched Center for a New Middle East. 

Just a reminder, AJC is a 501(c)3 nonpartisan organization, and AJC neither supports nor opposes candidates for elective office.

Jason Isaacson:  

I really wanted to begin by citing some passages from the Democratic platform and some passages from the Republican platform relating to the Middle East. I'll just mention very briefly that the Republican platform's Middle East language is short and to the point. It says, We will stand with Israel and seek peace in the Middle East. We will rebuild our alliance network in the region to ensure a future of stability, peace, stability and prosperity. 

And it also promises, very quickly, to restore peace in Europe and the Middle East. The Democratic platform is much more extensive. It's an 80 page document, a long section on the Middle East.

But it says that the administration opposes settlement expansion and West Bank West Bank annexation. Also opposes the Boycott Divestment and Sanctions Movement against Israel. But it's very clear that the administration believes a strong, secure and democratic Israel is vital to the interests of the United States. 

It's also quite specific about the necessity of defeating Hamas. I want to start my questioning with Halie Soifer. The question that's been on the minds of political reporters and many of us in the community, Haley, as you very well know, over the last 10 months of the war in Gaza, and has taken on new meaning in light of the change at the top of the Democratic ticket. 

How can a Democratic candidate for president in the current highly charged environment maintain the support of the party's pro Israel mainstream while also keeping or winning back the loyalty of the increasingly active pro Palestinian segment of its constituency. What have we heard from Vice President Harris, for whom you worked in the Senate, that suggests that she can balance these competing policy claims?

Halie Soifer:  

Well, thank you, Jason, thanks to everyone. I was told to project. And for those of you who are at the Global Forum, you know I know how to project, so I will try my best. But thanks for having me. 

I did have the honor of working for then-Senator Harris, starting her first month in the Senate for two years as her national security advisor. And what I can tell you is, not only does she share the views of President Biden, we know that based on the past three and a half years, and their records standing with Israel in the lead up to and of course, in the aftermath of the horrific attacks of October 7. 

Giving an unprecedented amount of military assistance to Israel, standing with Israel, not only in the aftermath of these attacks, but demanding the release of all of the hostages, and continuing to stand with Israel as it faces this threat from Iran, pre positioning military assets in the region, not once, but twice in the lead up to The attacks of April 13. But also, I can tell you from personal experience, her views on Israel didn't start from day one in the White House. I saw it from day one when she was in the Senate. She came to this role with over a decade of experience working on these issues. I traveled to Israel with her in November of 2017. 

This is an issue that she feels deeply in terms of the importance of the US Israel relationship, Israel security, its right to self defense, and she is a staunch supporter of Israel. Have no doubt. I'm glad you started with the Democratic platform as well, because this also elaborates on what is the strongly pro Israel views of our party. 

And make no mistake, it's not a coincidence that we have three pages detailing our support of Israel in our platform. It's pages 82-85 for those who would like to look it up. And it is no mistake that the Republican platform is empty platitudes. Two, two bullet points that barely say anything. Because this is an issue of which our party is deeply committed. 

And it extends beyond Israel. It includes Israel's security in the Middle East and our platform, which has never been stronger. I testified before the platform committee. I was very happy to say this very strong pro Israel platform of 2020 not only should it not be diluted, it should be strengthened. 

Because, of course, we have seen the horror of October 7, we should reflect the fact that we stand with Israel in this moment. We call for the release of the hostages, and of course, we unequivocally condemn Hamas. 

All of that is reflected in this platform and more, including recognition of the horrific sexual violence that was perpetrated on that day, which the vice president herself has given voice to. So in terms of questioning how she can navigate this issue, she already has and she continues to stand with Israel. 

I have no doubt that when she's elected in 78 days, with the strong support of the Jewish community, that she will continue to do so as President.

Jason Isaacson:  

Thank you, Haile. Brad, I'm going to turn to you. The Republican Party platform had no specific references to Iran, but the Democratic platform went on at length about the need both to halt the regime's progress toward nuclear weapons capability and to confront Iran's and its proxies, destabilizing activities across the region. The Democrats document also pointed to instances of the Trump administration's failure to respond to certain Iranian provocations. Unfortunately, the Democratic platform didn't mention the fact that Trump administration was responsible for taking out IRGC Quds Force Chief, General Soleimani. 

Now talk about how you imagine a Harris administration confronting the Iranian threats differently from the Biden administration. We have seen over the last three years, Iran has continued to develop its nuclear weapons capability, although it's not yet passed that threshold apparently. Its proxies are on the march across the region. We haven't really been successful in confronting Iran. Do you see a Harris administration taking a different approach? 

Brad Schneider  

Great question. And before I start, let me just welcome everybody to Chicago, to our great city, and those from Chicago, can you raise your hand? And I'm also going to take the personal indulgence to say it's good to be home with Chicago AJC.

Jason Isaacson:  

Thank you, Brad. I should have said that.

Brad Schneider  

Look, Iran is the greatest threat to Israel, to the region, but also to the United States. Our interests here in the region, but also here at home, and so we need to stand up to Iran and understand Iran is a threat on many different aspects. It's not just their nuclear program. It is their support of the proxies, Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis, and more. It is their efforts to expand their reach, their influence across the region, and they do so not by building up states, but by tearing them down, creating instability across the region. 

Their chant is not just Death to Israel, but Death to America. I have no doubt that the Harris-Walz administration will stay focused and understands the importance of first, ensuring that Iran never, ever gets a nuclear weapon. That has to be our number one priority. Because imagine where we would have been on April 13 if Iran had a nuclear weapon. Or this past couple of weeks, if Iran had a nuclear weapon. 

The second thing I think you will see is the continuation of the policy. Reflecting on April 13, Iran launched 350 drones, rockets and missiles at Israel. It was Israel, the United States, and a arrangement or alliance of other nations that defeated that attack. That sent a very clear message that we will stand up to Iran, not leaving Israel to stand alone, or the United States and Israel standing without the support of allies, but allies throughout the region. 

And just as important, if you look at who those allies are and what they believe in, they are countries, Arab countries, that are looking to the future. They're looking for a different dynamic in the Middle East. You mentioned that the Trump administration took out Soleimani. The Trump administration also laid the groundwork and helped establish the Abraham Accords. That is, I believe, the framework for the future that provides security and peace, not just to Israel, but to the other nations in the region. 

And so what I believe the administration, that the Harris-Walz administration will focus on is isolating Iran, ensuring Iran can never have a nuclear weapon. Thwarting Iran's effort to expand its reach through proxies and failed states, but at the same time building up and working towards a path towards peace, security and prosperity for Israel and the region. I think that reflection of forward thinking, it's not just about Israel. It's about everything. 

If you were watching last night, if you were there last night [Monday night], if you've been watching this campaign as it's unfolded. Now it'll be one month tomorrow. As it unfolds, what you're seeing is a view towards a different path that gives promise and hope to a better future that is absolutely dependent on the United States. United States leadership and US leadership on a global stage will empower and help us to ensure that Iran doesn't get that foothold on the global stage and doesn't have the ability to continue with threats to Israel in the region. 

Jason Isaacson:  

Well, let me stay on Iran for a second with you. Do you see a Harris administration try to return to the JCPOA?

Brad Schneider 

No.

Jason Isaacson:  

Or has that been totally discredited? 

Brad Schneider  

One thing you'll see is the Harris administration. I had a long conversation with Ilan Goldberg yesterday, the recognition that we are where we are now, we all would wish we were in a different place. 10 years ago, we were focused on getting to a place to move Iran back from the threshold of a nuclear weapon, and without relitigating the JCPOA, we moved Iran further away, a year away. 

Now a year away is not eliminating Iran's capacity or capability to develop a nuclear weapon, but it is buying time. And what we should have done, I will relitigate this. We should have used that time to strengthen our position, our allies’ position to improve our prospects of moving Iran further back.

Instead, what happened was the Trump administration pulled out of the JCPOA and Iran marched forward, and where they are today is far closer to a nuclear weapon than they were 10 years ago. Where they are today are talking about days away from having enough nuclear enriched uranium, highly enriched uranium, to build not one, but multiple nuclear weapons.

And they just announced that they're working on developing the triggering mechanism, the ability to convert that enriched uranium into a nuclear weapon. So the stakes are higher. The risks are higher. Iran is closer. We've got to start where we are today, and I think the new administration coming in will start at that point and look for ways to push back, to create space, and to use that space to buy time, to use that time to get us to a place where we have more security.

But we can only go there if the administration is clear. Congress is clear. It's not a partisan issue. This has to be Democrats and Republicans saying we will never allow Iran to have a nuclear weapon, and all options are available to us to ensure that Iran does not achieve their goal.

Jason Isaacson:  

Brad, thank you. Ambassador Nides. We were talking earlier this morning about the Abraham Accords, and of course, Congressman Schneider just talked about that as well. 

How do you see a Harris administration, building on the Abraham Accords, success, building on what the Biden administration has tried to do in normalizing relations between Saudi Arabia and Israel. Will that be a priority for the Harris administration? What would be the obstacles that it will face as it tries to move forward in that direction.

Thomas Nides:

Well, first of all, thank you for having me. And let me give a little bit of shout out to Ted Deutch. Who is– Ted, you can't leave. I see you walking back there. Because when they decided to recruit Ted Deutsch to leave the Congress to come do this, that was your biggest, happiest day. So thank you very much for your leadership. 

Let me just say there were not many things I agreed about with the Trump administration, to be clear. And when my when I was being confirmed as ambassador, one of the very nice members on the Republican side asked me, Sir, it seems to be that the Biden administration won't even talk about the Abraham Accords, and they don't even call them the Abraham Accords, I remember seeing the Senate because I'm a bit of a smart aleck, and I said, Can I explain to you something? I love the Abraham Accords, okay? I love the Abraham Accords. 

The Abraham Accords was, in my view, then and is today, a foundational event. And as much as I believe that the Trump administration has done all sorts of other things, the Abraham Accords, in my view, has strengthened the State of Israel. So I congratulate them for doing it and supporting it as we have. So we should all applaud that.

And as we think about the future. Because listen, what has happened here. Even after October 7, the Bahrainians, the Moroccans and the Emiratis, they didn't abandon Israel. Quite the opposite. They've stuck with, most all of them kept their ambassadors in Israel. Most of them continue to have long involved conversations with the Prime Minister about the strength of Israel.

And in fact, several months ago, when the Iranians were attacking Israel, those same countries were indirectly helping with the United States and with Israel to protect the State of Israel, not directly, but indirectly. A lot of information sharing. 

So the foundation for the Abraham Accords should be the foundation for what comes next. And what comes next. Number one, we got to get a hostage deal. For any of you – I'm leaving here to go with the hostage families. I was in Israel a couple weeks and spoke at hostage square. For all of us, for any of us, we should sit and pray to get these hostages out. And for those of you who know some of the families, it breaks my heart. We've got to get a hostage deal. The time is now, okay? 

And this President and this Vice President are committed to get these hostages free, so once we can get that deal done, and that means putting pressure on Netanyahu and putting pressure on Hamas. Make no mistake, this idea that this is all about Bibi. Listen, I've got my issues with Bibi on occasions, but it's not only convincing Bibi to do what needs to be done, it also is pressuring Hamas, through the proxies, to get them to do a deal. 

Once there is a hostage deal, everything starts coming into place. And what does that mean? Ultimately, would have to have a plan to rebuild Gaza. Because this fight wasn't with the Palestinian people. This fight was with Hamas, and we've got to help rebuild Gaza with a new PA, with a new group of international parties, including the Saudis and Emiratis. That's a $15 or $20 billion operation to build, rebuild Gaza. Yes, we need a new PA leadership, a new what PA leadership looks like in the future. Needs to be talked about and then, and then we need to have a conversation about normalization with Saudi Arabia. 

Make no mistake, it is the single most important thing that we can do, including keeping in control of Iran, is getting a normalization with Saudi Arabia. Because it's not just Saudi Arabia, it's the rest of the Muslim world, and it's in our grasp. We can get this done. Now obviously it's a little dreamy. And how do you get the 67 votes? We'll let the geniuses on the Hill, including the congressman, figure that out. 

But I do believe there is an opportunity, because Joe Biden and Kamala Harris are completely committed to this. I will say one little note. Two years ago, when Joe Biden came for his 10th visit to Israel, I remember meeting him at the airport, and if you recall, it was the same it was middle of covid. It was the same time and where he decided to go to Saudi Arabia. And you remember Joe Biden during the campaign, said some fairly aggressive things about the Saudis during the Khashoggi thing and MBS. 

But he was convinced by a lot of people, mostly his national security adviser and his vice president to go to Saudi Arabia. Why? Because it was good for the security of the State of Israel. He fundamentally believed that the Saudi normalization could be and should be the keys for the security of the State of Israel. So we've got to get these hostages out. We get a plan, and we need moving on a side, normalization as quickly as humanly possible.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

If you missed last week's episode, be sure to tune in for my conversation with Yair Zivan, foreign policy advisor to Israel's opposition leader, Yair Lapid, about his new book of essays “The Center Must Hold.” In that book, authors argue for a return to centrist politics as an antidote to the extremism around the globe today.

Today, Israel is one of America’s top global allies. How did this relationship develop? Why does this alliance have such widespread support in America? To answer these questions and more, Walter Russell Mead, Fellow in Strategy and Statesmanship at the Hudson Institute and columnist for The Wall Street Journal, joins guest host, Melanie Maron Pell, AJC’s chief field operations officer, to discuss his latest book, “The Arc of a Covenant: The United States, Israel, and the Fate of the Jewish People.”

In their discussion, we delve into what fuels America and Israel’s alliance, debunk myths about the relationship, including antisemitic tropes and memes, and why it’s important not to take it for granted.

___

Episode Lineup:

(0:40) Melanie Maron Pell and Walter Russel Mead

___

Show Notes:

The Arc of a Covenant: The United States, Israel, and the Fate of the Jewish People by Walter Russell Mead

Listen to our latest podcast episode: Operation Breaking Dawn: Analyzing and Assessing the Latest Gaza Conflict

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

“To be a Jew is to know that because of who we are, because of our historical experience, we care for the other. This is really one of the great tensions of our moment. Of how to be eyes wide open to Israel's need for self-defense, and at the same time recognize the real suffering that's going on in Gaza and to know that we need to find a way to hold both of those together.”

Rabbi Elliot Cosgrove, spiritual leader of Park Avenue Synagogue in New York, explores the complexities of Jewish identity in a post-October 7th world in his new book, For Such a Time As This: On Being Jewish Today. In this conversation, he unpacks the tension between Israel’s need for self-defense and the suffering experienced by Gazans and Israelis and the challenge of balancing empathy with vigilance. He also shares his personal journey to the rabbinate and what it means to live as a Jew in this pivotal moment.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Sign up for AJC Global Forum:

• Register at AJC.org/GlobalForum2025 for the premier global Jewish advocacy conference of the year, in New York City, April 27-29 2025

Listen – AJC Podcasts:

• The Forgotten Exodus: with Hen Mazzig, Einat Admony, and more.

• People of the Pod: 

• The Oldest Holocaust Survivor Siblings: A Tale of Family, Survival, and Hope

• Israeli Hostages Freed: Inside the Emotional Reunions, High-Stakes Negotiations, and What’s Next

• Bring Them Home: Understanding the Israel-Hamas Hostage Deal and Its Impact

• Pack One Bag: Stanley Tucci and David Modigliani Uncover His Jewish Family’s Escape from Fascism and Antisemitism in 1930s Italy

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You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

__

Transcript of Conversation with Rabbi Elliot Cosgrove: 

Josh Kramer:

AJC Global Forum is returning to New York City, April 27 to 29th 2025. I'm Josh Kramer. AJC New York Regional Director, and I hope to see you there. You won't want to miss this opportunity to join with more than 2000 other activists and engage in thought provoking discussions on the future of the Jewish people, Israel, America, and the world. 

Our program will feature large plenary sessions with headline speakers, smaller breakout sessions designed to explore the key political, strategic and social concerns affecting the global Jewish community, and exclusive opportunities to engage with diplomats, decision makers, interfaith partners, community leaders and more. 

Will you be in the room? Register today at AJC.org/GlobalForum2025 to take part in the premier global Jewish advocacy conference of the year. Now is the time to join AJC in shaping a new future. Head to AJC.org/GlobalForum2025.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I've done quite a bit of soul searching in the 15 months since October 7. How do I grapple with the tragedy in Israel and Gaza and the hatred Jews face on American soil without scaring my children away from Judaism? 

Then came our Temple's Purim spiel last spring. That story of Queen Esther's bravery, in some ways, helped. It was about that same time that Rabbi Elliot Cosgrove, the spiritual leader at Park Avenue Synagogue in New York, picked up his pen and began to write his latest book, named for a line in Queen Esther's tale – For Such a Time As This: On Being Jewish Today.

Rabbi Cosgrove is with us now. Rabbi, welcome to People of the Pod.

Elliot Cosgrove:  

Thank you. It's great to be here. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So I have to tell you, rehearsals began for this year's Purim spiel as I was reading this book, which made it all the more powerful. What inspired you to write this?

Elliot Cosgrove:  

Well, for me, I draw wisdom from text, and I was trying to think of what would be an analogous moment for what we were going through as American Jews from the ancient text. 

And for me, as you say, this is now on the cusp of Purim 2025, it was the story of Esther that we read. And in many of our synagogues, we have Purim spiels, where we act out the story, which is basically the story of a Jewish community of ancient Shushan who believed themselves to have it good, that they were comfortable in the diaspora. And the wicked decree of Haman came down and Esther, whose name actually means to hide, she hid herself, her Jewish identity in the king's palace, and believed that she was comfortable there. 

When the decree came down, Mordechai, her uncle, by way of an emissary, sent a message to her. “Don't think yourself to be safe from Haman's decree. Who knows, if it was not for such a time as this that you've arrived at your station.”

And I saw this as really the calling card of our moment that we all felt ourselves in the wake of October 7, Esther-like called to action. The trauma of October 7, but also the call to action, to step up to the moment, the needs of our people.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Tell us about your writing process.

Elliot Cosgrove:  

I buried myself in my writing from before dawn until mid-morning, and then I would hit a wall. And I didn't take a sabbatical. I actually went into my day job as a congregational rabbi. It was a very intense writing process and then in the course of about three to four months sent the manuscript off to the publisher. Manya, the thing about the book is it was very disorienting to write as the events were playing out, both in Israel and in the States.

And one of the worries that I had that I spoke to the publisher about was, well, what if this becomes dated? You know, it was not journalism, but I was writing as the news was happening, and the good news and the bad news is that the themes that I pick up on: the trauma of Israel, the blurred line between anti-Zionism and antisemitism, how we balance empathy and vigilance, the question of the hostages, of thinking about a day after for Israel and the Palestinians, these questions are not only still relevant, but they're actually more pressing than ever. So unfortunately, the themes that I hit on in the book, very much present right now.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

How did that writing process help you personally process what you were witnessing and experiencing as a Jew in America?

Elliot Cosgrove:  

I'll say this, that as a rabbi, I often see my job–someone calls, they've just gotten bad news in the hospital, a loved one has passed away. Or a happy thing, that their child has just gotten engaged, or they themselves have just become new parents. And people turn to clergy to get the first line of constructing the narrative of what it is they are experiencing. 

And for me, there is something deeply personal and deeply pastoral about this book, because I feel like it's seeking, hopefully, to give the language to American Jews as to how to construct this new reality of a post October 7 existence, the jumble of emotions, of trauma, but also the emergence of Jewish identity, the likes of which we've never seen before, the argument for continued defense of Israel's right to self determination, as well as an assurance that the traumas of October 7 never happen again. And in the same breath to think actively about what does the day after look like. I think we're all searching for language for these and other tensions of our moment, and I'm hoping that the book is sort of a vocabulary builder for our time.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

One word that you used many times in the book, and it stuck with me, just because maybe it's one of my favorite words, and that is empathy. And you used it in different chapters, different contexts. And I'm curious if you could share with the audience the role of empathy and how it is a guiding force, how it has been a guiding force since October 7.

Elliot Cosgrove:  

Empathy, both its presence and its absence, has been a subplot of this moment, because I think empathy is ingrained into the Jewish DNA. You open up the Passover Haggadah, and on the one hand, we know that we are vigilant against every generation a pharaoh arises to destroy us. We are guards up. We are a people who knows the importance of ancient hatreds, of being vigilant against them, and also the ring of fire that Israel sits in by way of Iran and its proxies. 

I mean, Israel's in a very tight spot, and American Jewry is in a very tight spot. And at the same time, empathy is who we are. You were once a stranger in a strange land. Therefore you should know the heart of a stranger. To be a Jew is to know that because of who we are, because of our historical experience, we care for the other. And I think that this is really one of the great tensions of our moment of how to, you know, be eyes wide open to Israel's need to self defense, and at the same time recognize the real suffering that's going on in Gaza and and to know that we need to find a way to hold both of those together.

That Israel needs to fight this war as if there's no tomorrow, and Israel has to fight this war with an eye to tomorrow, with the same ferocity that it prosecutes this war, it has to pursue a day after plan. And I think that somewhere along the way, it's the voices on the extremes who are speaking with the loudest megaphones. And the goal of this moment is to realize that we need to find a way to embrace both. 

I think it was Fitzgerald who said the test of a great mind is the ability to hold two opposing ideas and retain the ability to function. I think the test of the Jewish community right now is the ability to hold both vigilance and empathy at the same time and retain the ability to move forward with hope.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And how can empathy help here on American soil, where we're facing protesters, we're facing all kinds of opposition and questions and hatred because of what's happening overseas. How do we use empathy here on American soil?

Elliot Cosgrove:  

First of all, it's hard. It's hard. When you are under attack, the last thing anyone wants to do is feel someone else's pain. When someone is calling me a colonialist oppressor, when someone is calling for the destruction of the Jewish state, something which is part and parcel to my identity, core to my very being – my initial instinct is not to inquire into how they feel and have empathy. My initial instinct is to have shields of self-defense, prioritize the needs of my people over anyone else's. I think that's a human thing to do. 

And as long as the hostages are hostages, as long as Israel stands in a vulnerable position, I think we need to be eyes wide open to that, and then we need to breathe, and we need to remember what it means to be a Jew. 

And we need to remember that it takes two to tango, and that if we are going to create a future whereby Jews and Palestinians can live side by side in safety and self determination, then we need to realize that there are two peoples worthy of realizing that dream, and that requires empathy, Manya.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You were not always that religious or observant of your religious tradition. Can you tell our audience how you became a rabbi?

Elliot Cosgrove:  

How long do we have? This is a big question, but, look as with any way we construct our realities and tell our origin stories, there are a million ways to tell it. The truth of the matter is, I am the grandson of a congregational rabbi, an orthodox rabbi. So to say that I had somehow strayed from the path is a little bit of an overstatement. But I will say that I grew up in a traditional Jewish background. I'm very proud of the home I grew up in, but when I went off to college, it was very much something I did, Judaism was something I did at home. And I can't say that my first few years at my alma mater at University of Michigan were known by way of my religious affiliations and commitments.

And then I got a phone call my junior year of college, that a figure from my youth, a grandfather figure I never really knew. My grandparents had passed away, and he was a guy who used to sit next to us in synagogue and slip me up peppermint candy as the rabbi was about to start the sermon or come over for Passover Seders or Shabbat dinner, Mr. Gendun, and he had passed away. And I got the phone call. I said, What would Mr. Gendun want me to do? And I thought, maybe I'll say Kaddish. 

So I called one of my Jewishy friends. I had never been inside the Hillel building up until that moment. And I called up one of my Jewishy friends and I said, What's, where's the Hillel? And they said, you're an idiot, Elliot. It's this huge building right on campus at Michigan. And I went in and I said my Kaddish, and I was getting up like it was the end of an airplane ride just to run back out to whatever my evening plans were. 

And a man stood between me and the door, boxing me out, and I was trying to shimmy one way and the other. And he said, I notice you've never been here before. And he said, Well, I'm wondering if you'd like to come to Shabbat dinner. And I lied, truth be told, because I figure he didn't want to know about dollar pitcher night. And I said, I already have Shabbat plans. And he said, Well, do you have Shabbat plans next week? And I was caught in my tracks, and I said, No, and before I could say another word, he said, Good, then you'll come over for Shabbat dinner. 

And that man was Michael Brooks, who was the Hillel Director of the Michigan Hillel. I went over to Shabbat dinner. I got involved in the Israel group. I was an editor of the student journal. I sat on the Hillel governing board. One thing led to the other, and I became a rabbi.

But important [as] that story is obviously in my own religious formation and choice of vocation, is how it informs my own life and my own rabbinate. It's that ability to look around the room when you're in a class, a Jewish event, a service, and who's the person who looks a little out of place like they might have been there for the very first time, and just do that small human act of reaching out to them, and whether you're going to invite them to Shabbat dinner or not, but just to acknowledge their humanity, that has been the north star of my rabbinate ever since. We're all just human beings looking for a place to hang our hats.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You talk about empathy. I think empathy caught my attention every time you mentioned it in the book, because I think it's so key to journalism. It's such an important component of it. And then I think hospitality is such an important component to Judaism and to congregational life,

Elliot Cosgrove:  

Absolutely. Hospitality is something that is key to our text at the beginning of the Passover Seder. But hospitality is also a spiritual demeanor that we welcome people into our souls, into our presence, into our life. Hachnasat Orchim in Hebrew, this idea that there's always space within our souls, within our hearts. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Having had such an important turning point on a university campus, how did you interact with, council, university students during this time, as they were facing such pressures and such opposition, crushing opposition during this past year and a half?

Elliot Cosgrove:  

So there's a chapter about that in the book. It's really the part of the book that I think has struck a nerve, and appropriately so, because I'm the father of four college age or thereabouts children.  And that story I tell about Maya, and Maya is a young woman who, I joke, shares half a brain with my own college age daughter. She's grown up in my household, and she is what you or I might identify as a non Zionist Gen zer, and she approached me and perhaps reproached me for having a Israeli flag on the pulpit, for doing the prayer for the State of Israel in the midst of the service, and said, you know, and she grew up in the Jewish Day School. She grew up going to Jewish summer camp. She did gap year programs in Israel. 

Not a small amount of money has been invested in the Mayas of the world, and she herself is asking whether or not her liberal, American Jewish self can be simpatico with the policies of this or that Israeli government, because they don't speak for her sensibility. And to this question of empathy, I think the first move one makes in any such situation is to try to understand where the other person is coming from. 

And I think a 21, 22, 23 year old is coming of age in a moment of time where the only Prime Minister they know of is Bibi Netanyahu, who either is or is beholden to the most right-wing elements of Israeli society. The only policies they know of the Israeli government are an expansionist policy in the West Bank, which has precluded the possibility of a two state solution. The only paradigm they have is an Israel which is a Goliath to the Palestinian David, this is their reality. 

You can't blame someone for the time into which they are born. I can pick apart and engage in a dialog on what's true and what's not true. But to tell someone that their reality is not, their reality is is not, you know, a move that one can make. And by the way, if they're during the time of the judicial reform, and to this day, there are 1000s of Israelis marching on the streets on a Saturday night protesting the Israeli government as an expression of their love of country. 

To tell the Mayas of the world, a college age student today, that they are treif, they are beyond the bounds of Jewish discourse, for doing the exact same thing is just an argument that doesn't hold water anymore. And so the the the goal here, Manya, is to engage with their questions, to listen intently, to prompt that young mind to come up with their own answers for the defense and the well being of the Jewish people, given the harsh realities that Israel faces, and also to make room for their very real question. So I look long on the Maya generation. It's actually a controversial moment within the organized Jewish community –do we write them off, do we not write them off? I think they're our future, and I think we do terrible damage to ourselves if we write them off.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Because it is such a time as this. We have to pay attention to the context, right, and to where we are in history, without losing sight of history.

Elliot Cosgrove:  

Look, it's very easy to take pot shots from the left and from the right. You know where this brave space is. The brave space is standing in the middle and dignifying the claims and counterclaims of both sides, and knowing that real leadership is trying to keep our people together.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Your book does such a beautiful job of inspiring that sense, sparking those, those right emotions in my head. So thank you so much for writing it. And I encourage all of our listeners to pick up a copy of Rabbi Cosgrove's book–For Such a Time as This: On Being Jewish Today. It is full of challenges, and I think that the challenge is worth facing and taking on. Thank you.

Elliot Cosgrove:  

Thank you so much, Manya.

As antisemitism persists on both political extremes, are moderate forces strong enough to steer us in the right direction? Can lawmakers actually reach across the aisle in today’s political climate? James Carville, Democratic strategist and political icon, and Leslie Sanchez, a Republican strategist and award-winning political commentator, joined AJC Senior Director of Policy and Political Affairs Julie Fishman Rayman in a discussion about the state of U.S. politics today at AJC Global Forum 2022. The two explained how rising extremism in both parties affects critical issues like Israeli security and antisemitism. They also weighed in on the importance of talking to voters in their own language - as opposed to national talking points. 

___

Episode Lineup: 

(0:40) The Forgotten Exodus Teaser Trailer

(2:42) Julie Fishman Rayman, James Carville, Leslie Sanchez

___

Show Notes:

Learn more about The Forgotten Exodus at AJC.org/ForgottenExodus

Theme song credit: Publisher: Pond5 Publishing Beta (BMI); Composer: Tiemur Zarobov (BMI), IPI#1098108837

Watch the AJC Global Forum 2022 session: Extremists or Moderates - Who’s Driving American Politics Today? - The Leonard Greenberg Forum for Domestic Policy Issues

View additional highlights from AJC Global Forum 2022: AJC.org/GlobalForumNews

Listen to our latest episode: How Can Governments Win the Fight Against Antisemitism? An AJC Global Forum 2022 Conversation

Don’t forget to subscribe to People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

When Israel’s coalition government took shape last summer, all signs pointed to progress on an expanded egalitarian prayer site at Jerusalem's Western Wall. But now that plan appears to be stalled, due to tensions within that coalition. We are joined by Dr. Laura Shaw Frank, AJC’s Director of William Petschek Contemporary Jewish Life, who shares the special connection she has to the Western Wall (Kotel), why its egalitarian prayer site has become a flashpoint within the Israeli government, and the deep meaning it has to diaspora Jews. 

Then, tune into our closing segment to hear Manya and Laura on how the coronavirus pandemic and ensuing border closures have impacted American Jewish-Israeli relations, particularly for young and unaffiliated Jews, whose ties to Israel may not be as strong as previous generations.

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Episode Lineup:

(0:40) Laura Shaw Frank

(22:03) Manya Brachear Pashman and Laura Shaw Frank

____

Show Notes:

Listen to our most recent episode: How Antisemitism Undermines Democracy

Don’t forget to subscribe to People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

Israeli-American actress Noa Tishby didn’t set out to be Israel’s first special envoy for combating antisemitism and the delegitimization of Israel. But since being appointed by then-Israeli Foreign Minister Yair Lapid in April 2022, Tishby has been a powerful voice when it comes to combating hatred against Jews and misinformation about Israel. Amid the paperback release of her book "Israel: A Simple Guide to the Most Misunderstood Country on Earth," Tishby joins us to discuss the impact of the Abraham Accords two years on, how she’s raising her son to love Israel, and why she doesn’t view antisemitism as a “problem to solve.”

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Episode Lineup:

(0:40) Noa Tishby

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Show Notes:

To register for Global Forum 2023, visit AJC.org/GlobalForum

"Israel: A Simple Guide to the Most Misunderstood Country on Earth," By Noa Tishby

Listen to our latest podcast episode: Here’s Why All of Society Must Take Action Against Antisemitism

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

In honor of Veterans Day, explore the unique experiences of Jewish U.S. military veterans with Dave Warnock, U.S. Army Veteran, and Andrea Goldstein, U.S. Navy Veteran and Reservist. Our guests share what inspired them to join the military, how their Jewish heritage played a significant role in shaping their service, and what advice they have for the Israel Defense Forces soldiers fighting now against Hamas in the Gaza Strip. Warnock and Goldstein are members of AJC’s ACCESS Jewish Military Veterans Affinity Group, a space to convene young Jewish professionals who have served in the American military.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Dave Warnock, Andrea Goldstein

Show Notes:

Listen – People of the Pod on the Israel-Hamas War:

• What Would You Do If Your Son Was Kidnapped by Hamas?

• Renana Gomeh’s Sons Were Taken Hostage by Hamas: What She Needs You to Do to Bring Them Home Now

• What Biden’s Wartime Visit to Israel Signals to Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah

• Mai Gutman Was Supposed to Be at the Music Festival: IDF Lone Soldier Recounts Harrowing Week

• Responding to Hamas Terror: IsraAID CEO on How You Can Help Israelis Right Now

Learn:

• What is Known About Israeli Hostages Taken by Hamas

• 7 Ways Hamas Exploits Palestinian Civilians in Gaza

• How much do you know about Hamas? Try to ace our quiz and expose the truth about the terror group today.

Donate:

• AJC.org/SupportIsrael

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Transcript of Interview with Dave Warnock and Andrea Goldstein:

Manya Brachear Pashman:

This episode pays tribute to our nation's veterans. Guest hosting is my colleague Dr. Dana Levinson Steiner, Director of ACCESS Global at AJC, where she oversees an international program to engage young professionals. In that group are a number of Jewish military veterans who have served in the American Armed Forces. Dana, the mic is yours. 

Dana Levinson Steiner:

Thanks, Manya. I'm so happy that we're here today. It was just over two years ago that we formed the ACCESS Jewish Military Veterans Affinity Group, which is a space for us to convene young Jewish professionals who had served in the American military. And here we are now recording our first People of the Pod podcast episode in honor of and commemorating Veterans Day. 

With us today are: Dave Warnock, U.S. Army Veteran, joining us from his home in Seattle, Washington, and Andrea Goldstein, U.S. Navy Veteran and Reservist, who is based in Washington, D.C. Dave, Andrea, thanks for joining us today.

Dave Warnock:  

Happy to be here, Dana.

Andrea Goldstein:  

Yeah, I’m glad to be here. 

Dana Levinson Steiner:

To kick off the conversation, please tell us a little bit about your journey as an American Jewish military veteran. What inspired you to join the United States Armed Forces? Dave, let’s start with you.

Dave Warnock:  

For me, there are two kind of main things when I look back on what propelled me to join the US Army. The first one was my great grandfather, Saul Fink. The family legend is like he emigrated over from the shtetl. His family settled in Harlem. And when he heard about what was going on in Texas at the time, and 1916 and 1914 with the Pancho Villa incursions, he felt so propelled by patriotism and love of America that he had to run away from home and enlist at 16 years old. Which he did. Joined the Horse Calvary, a proper Jewish cowboy chasing after Pancho Villa in New Mexico, in a forgotten war. And he made sort of a career out of the army. So that's the legend that he was propelled by patriotism, maybe hated the tenement, maybe just wanted to get out of Harlem, get some fresh air, see the American West, I don't know. 

But his service propelled him forward in American society, through the US Army in a way that I think would have been unavailable to a lot of Jews at the time. It's not to say that it was an easy journey. He was certainly discriminated against; he shortened his name from Finkelstein to Fink for reasons that are not kind of lost to history. One joke is that it couldn't fit on the nametag. But through this service, he was elevated in society, he became an officer in World War I. He served through World War II and in the army of occupation in Germany. And his stature, sort of the patriarch of my family, loomed large. My middle name is Solomon, I'm named after him. So that kind of tradition was part of it. Another part was, I enlisted in 2004. So three years after 91/1 when I was a freshman in high school, and that terrorist attack really did propelled, cemented my decision to serve you know, if that didn't happen, I don't know what I would have done differently. But those are the two main reasons that propelled me to join. And I joined the Army and I volunteered for the infantry because I wanted to be a soldier. 

Dana Levinson Steiner:

In a lot of ways, it is our family that inspires us to make these kinds of decisions and we learn so much from our family history and our family lineage. Andrea, I'd love to hear a little bit more about your journey too and I'm curious if family played a role in your decision to join the Navy.

Andrea Goldstein:  

My family decision to do the military was much more related to growing up in the United States, growing up in New York at a time actually, probably when we didn't have the NYPD outside of synagogues. I didn't really think about being Jewish, at least in New York in the 90s. But my family came here in mostly two waves, most in the early 20th century, and then another wave right before the Holocaust, and found everything they were looking for. And depending on which wave, either second generation or third generation where a sense of precarity and being American was gone. We just were American Jews. And I am currently sitting in a home that has embroidery on the wall that was sent to my great-grandmother, by family members who ended up–who perished in the shoah. This country really gave us everything and I wanted to give back to that. 

The value of tikkun olam is very central to everything that I do. And so serving my country and wearing the cloth of the nation to me felt like really the only way to do that. 

9/11 was not a motivating factor for me, despite growing up in New York City and being in New York City on 9/11. My desire to serve in uniform predated that, in fact, 9/11 led me to really not so much reconsider, but really give even more thought to my military service, because I knew I would be serving in conflict zones, which, with the peacetime military of the 90s, that wasn't clear. But I ended up joining through an officer program. I didn't initially have any family support, because it was such a shocking choice. I had great-grandparents who'd served during World War Two great-uncles, but not from a military family at all. And what became very understood by my family, because it was, what was motivating me was, this desire to serve my country and wear the cloth of the nation, no matter what.

Dana Levinson Steiner:

I want to pivot a little bit, I want to get back to questions of Jewish identity in a moment. But when we're thinking about American Jews serving in the US armed forces, while there isn't a ton of data, the most recent-ish data suggests that just about 1% of the US armed forces, or the US military, is made up of American Jews. It's tiny, only 1%. And that 1% is of an already really small number of American Jews who already live in this country. 

So, you know, thinking about this statistic and also acknowledging American history in serving in the military. What do we make of this small number? And what would you like to tell young American Jews who may be considering joining the military but may have doubts or concerns?

Andrea Goldstein:  

So there are a couple of things I would say to that. I would comment on that data–first of all, that's only commenting that that only includes self reported numbers because we don't collect demographic data on, it’s seen as completely religious affiliation. The military does not collect demographics on Jews as being an ethnic group. So it's actually quite difficult to self-report your religion. So there's going to be an undercount, there are people who are Jewish, who may even practice privately, who are not reporting. And it also doesn't capture Jewish families. 

So it doesn't capture the number of people who may be not Jewish themselves, but their partner and spouse is Jewish, and they're raising Jewish children, and they're observing Jewish holidays with their families. So there's a lot that we really don't know. What I would also say is, if you were to overlay where the military struggles to recruit from, with the parts of the country where most Jews live in the United States, you would see probably some very interesting geographic trends. 

The military has become a family business. There has also been, there have been some comforts that the military has had in where they recruit from. And that typically is not New York, Los Angeles, Miami, Chicago, Washington, DC. So in addition to being one of the very few Jews that I know, in the military, I think I know probably even fewer people from New York City, especially officers.

Dana Levinson Steiner:

Dave, I'm curious, your thoughts on some of these numbers? And also maybe what you would tell–you and I have talked about this before about wanting to really engage in conversation with young American Jews about this experience and what it can mean for them, you know, acknowledging this number a while not perfect, I would imagine it's not so massive. So tell us a little bit about what you think and also maybe what you would tell a young American Jew who might be considering enlisting.

Dave Warnock:  

Sure. First off, my mom was also very surprised when I joined, perplexed, flummoxed, aggrieved, perhaps she would have much rather me not join the army. But I just have to get that out there because she's certainly going to listen to this. Yeah, so, you know, I don't know where that number comes from, you know, the infantry's a different representation, I would say Jews were less than 1% of the infantry. But when I was at basic training, like for one station unit training, as they called it back then, after your red phase, like your hell phase, or whatever you want to call it, you are allowed to go to religious services on Sunday. 

So I went to Jewish services on Sunday, because, you know, it is the army. And I want to do it, like in my basic training company, there were no other Jews. So the company’s like 200 guys, and then when you go to religious services, they're all of a sudden, like, 200 guys, they're like, Oh, my God, why so many Jews all of a sudden in every company in Fort Benning, except for mine? And then I realized is because they serve Kiddush lunch and you could get snacky cakes after services. And it turns out there were like three actual Jews at the services.

Andrea Goldstein:  

I had a completely different experience in officer candidate school where we were allowed to leave on Friday nights.

Dana Levinson Steiner:

Oh, interesting. Dave, what was your experience? 

Dave Warnock:  

So again,, this is like 2005, things might have changed. But when you joined a Combat Arms significant you just went to one station unit training and it was a fairly intense experience. Think about Full Metal Jacket, whatever, people screaming at you, doing lots of push ups. And all your time is blocked out and accounted for. So you've trained on Saturdays and religious service time was Sunday morning. That's the time you got, so if you want to go to services, you  had to do that. Something to consider if you join certain aspects of the military is, religious accommodations will be difficult. You know, I served with guys who were vegetarian. And there's one vegetarian MRE. You ate that a lot, like our rations for the field. So you eat that vegetarian ration a lot. Get real used to it. 

Certainly that is a consideration and it would be difficult to be religiously observant. In the infantry. I actually there was one guy in my company on the latter half of my service who was a religious Jew. And he basically got a lot of exceptions by his rabbi to serve. Because it was hard. The army would accommodate him to an extent, like, for example, we had to shave every day. And so he was allowed to use an electric razor. But it's something to consider if you are religious, that serving in the US military will be challenging. 

But you know, I encourage people to consider it. I don't regret my service, it's difficult to imagine my adult life without it. I'd say, I'm proud of it, too. But it carries costs. You know, when I was 19, on my first tour in Iraq, I was wounded, it took me six months to recover and get back to the line. The, almost five years I was in, I rarely saw my family because I was stationed in Germany and deployed to Iraq twice. So I was overseas, essentially, for the entire time of my service. And that's something to consider, but this is all my perspective. 

But the experiences you get, that will propel you forward in life in a way that I don't think you get through other things, certainly, when you're 18, or when I was. That being said, you know, a lot of soldiers in my unit did die in combat. A lot of guys, when they got out, they did struggle with PTSD and suicide. So it's not all sunshine and roses. But for me, it was the right decision.

Andrea Goldstein:

Military service is really incredible. My field does have more Jewish folks, especially in the reserves where I'm still serving. What's been very interesting is as an intelligence officer, the active duty component doesn't have a lot of Jewish people, but the reserve component, my last unit, we had enough people to have a minyan in a unit of 50 people. And I have found, similarly to just living in society. I mean, your exercises are not–you’re going to have exercises that take place during Rosh Hashanah, you're going to be deployed around Christian holidays so that people can be home for Christmas. Maybe you'll be lucky if that's around Hanukkah. 

But I've also found people to who I've worked with to be incredibly accommodating up until, up  to the extent that they can. So maybe I was going to be away for Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur. But people would change their shifts with me on watch so that I could run the service because I was the lay leader, or so that I could break my fast at the end of Yom Kippur war. 

And I experienced people being really curious and asking a lot of really good, in good faith questions. And I've had incredible experiences that range from serving with a lot of incredible, not just our military, but partner militaries. The most rewarding was my time with NATO where I got to teach in Norway and Greece and in  Sweden and get to have these incredible experiences with people as the people who– actually the Germans all notice my last name, which was really interesting. And that's a whole other story. But you also see things you can't experience anywhere else. And it's not just the–I saw a meteor shower in the middle of the ocean, on my 26th birthday from the middle of a ship. Like there are certain experiences that you don't think about when you're going into the profession of arms. But you will get to experience these incredibly vibrant experiences just because you've, you've made this choice to go where no one else does. And so it's incredibly rewarding. 

I've also found that as a millennial, I mean, there are some very realistic things about the economic environment that we graduated into. And because of my military service, I have no debt, and I own a home. I have a master's degree that the GI bill paid for. So there's some other things.

Dana Levinson Steiner:

You talked about sort of the things that you learned and the experience that you got as a young person. Dave tell us maybe a little about some of the more rewarding experiences or things were really profoundly important to you in your service.

Dave Warnock:  

I got out when I was 23. So 13 years ago now and memories once so vivid that I thought I would never forget him kind of faded away a little bit. One thing that I'll never forget, that was quite challenging, because after I was wounded, I was kind of serving in the rear just like in a limited duty capacity, like back in my garrison. And it was a tough tour, you know, lots of us got wounded, we had lots of members of our battalion killed. And I was asked by chain of command, as much as one can be asked in the military to escort a soldier's body back to his parents and to his burial in Arlington Cemetery. And I did that, and that was, I can't even describe just what that moment felt like to do that to be present there. It's kind of like a unit liaison. I didn't know the soldier, we were in different companies. But that was something I'll never forget. Actually escorting a soldier back to his parents. 

Another memory I'll never forget is like, because I have a photo of it. And it's on the wall in our living room is, the photo of me and my fire team. I was a sergeant on my second tour. And so I led like a small unit of four guys. And I have a picture when we were leaving Iraq for the last time. And just that sense of accomplishment of, everyone came home safe from my team on that tour. And that's why it's hung up on my wall. It's you know, we're smiling. We're happy. We're leaving. Yeah, so those are two things that tend to stand out in my service. 

Dana Levinson Steiner:

So Andrea, you started off by saying that the value of tikkun olam, repairing the world is one of the things that really guides you. And what I want to ask both you and Dave is how has your identity as a Jew, also shaped your experience as a veteran, we talked a little bit about, you know, in the beginning about your experiences as Jews or maybe your family, being involved in the military not being involved, being surprised. But tell us a little bit about how your identity as a Jew has shaped your experience as a military veteran and as someone who served in our armed forces.

Andrea Goldstein:  

So I left active duty in 2016 and stayed in the reserves but left full time service because I felt like I had reached a ceiling on what I could really do for others and that be my full time job. I wanted to keep serving, I wanted to keep serving my country. But a lot of that actually had to do with the way that I saw a lot of my teammates being mistreated by systemic issues, whether they be cultural or policy. And I wanted to spend a lot more of my time actively putting putting more good into the world versus preventing bad things from happening. Because that's what you do in the military, especially if you’re in intel, you try to stop the bad you don't do anything that actively promotes the good. And so I've spent the last seven years in my civilian career, either in nonprofit or public service, doing just that.

 And about half of that time has been active either actively helping veterans, particularly women veterans, and people who have experienced sexual violence or other kinds of institutionalized harm, and currently serving members of the military. And I also firmly believe that our institutions need to live up to the ideals that we profess. And  I want our nation to represent the ideals that my family came here believing it had. 

And so that's what I've been doing with my time. I spent two and a half years on the House Veterans Affairs Committee and helped write over 100 laws that particularly supported women veterans, members of the LGBTQ community, sexual trauma survivors, people living with PTSD, to help them get improved access to healthcare and benefits. And I'm also very proud that I've also had the opportunity to work with the IDF and provided some insight into the way that we've made some policy changes here in the US.

Dana Levinson Steiner:

Dave, tell us a little bit about your Jewish identity and how it plays into this experience.

Dave Warnock:  

Well, my unit was very diverse in many ways, not gender, because the unit was closed to, or  at the time that the MLS was close to females, so the unit was,  the job was all male. And, you know, part of the pipeline and being new and being a private is your identity is kind of like stripped away and melted down, you're built up as part of this team, your individualism is kind of knocked away. So when that process happens, you know, whatever is the more like forefront of your identity kind of consumes it. In a sense that, like, if you have a very pronounced southern accent, everyone's going to call you a country guy, or whatever. And if you're from New York, there's a guy from Queens, so like, everything about him became like, you're the New York guy. 

And for me, it was like I was the Jew. Because that was the most forefront and center thing of my identity. Also, when you shave my head, I have a really big head. So it was all like, all my nicknames were either about having a big head or being a Jew. And then eventually, when I started to grow my hair back and settled more on the latter. 

So it was always very central to my service, because that was me, I was like the company's guy who was Jewish. And that was not  meant in a derogatory term was more of like a statement of fact. And I think the only thing I really had to overcome was like, in 2005, when you're serving with people, like when I said it was diverse, you could be serving with people from all over the country, the US territories and guys from parts of the South I’ve never heard of, guys from the center of the country place have never been soldiers from Puerto Rico and Guam, like all over the world are serving in the US Army and then we have immigrant soldiers from, you know, Colombia, Nicaragua, Vietnam, like it was a very wide swath of representation and not very many of them had even met a Jew before. 

So in a way I was like the first Jew a lot of them had ever met. And I think, you know, rewind back 2005. If you know anything about Jews you probably know like Woody Allen and  Jerry Seinfeld, which are exactly like pictures of guys you want in a foxhole with you. So I had to sort of maybe work a little harder to prove myself in the basic soldiering tasks, but like that didn't take very long.

A lot of guys asked me questions about Judaism, because they genuinely didn't know. And I think one of the benefits of my service is, these guys take back their experiences with me, which I hope are positive, and then like, go back to wherever they're from. And they're like, if Judaism or Jews comes up, they're like, Hey, I served with a Jewish guy, he was pretty cool. 

But I think that was very important to me, and why it's so important for Jews to continue military service, because you just meet people from all over the country that you never would have met before. And it broadened my experiences too, serving with those guys. 

Dana Levinson Steiner:

I think, hearing the story about how in many cases you might have been the first few that these folks have met is really important. I think in a lot of ways it helps to demystify, or in most important cases, maybe even act against antisemitic ideas or stereotypes. So I think that that's really important. And Dave, you and I have talked over the years, about how sort of the term of calling you a Jew was like a term of endearment. It wasn't in terms of a term of antisemitism. And in spending a lot of my time with this ACCESS Military Veterans Group, I've gotten to learn some of the interesting elements of how you communicate and what that can look like. 

So I have just one more question for us. And I think it's really important to acknowledge this moment that we're in. On October 7, Israel experienced one of the most horrific tragedies in its 75 year history. It was and continues to be a horrific day for Israelis and the Jewish community around the world. As of today's recording, over 300 soldiers have been killed and tens of thousands have been called up for active and reserve duty. 

So a question I have for both of you is, what is a message that you have, or that you can share, Jewish veteran to Jewish veteran. And I should even say just veteran to veteran because one of the amazing things about Israel is that there are many who serve in the IDF and who've been called up for reserve duty or who are in active duty who are not Jewish. They're a part of the Druze community. They're Arab Israelis. I think that's really what makes Israel such a remarkable country. 

So tell us a little bit about perhaps your reactions to that day. And also a message that you have for your fellow soldiers in Israel.

Andrea Goldstein:  

I'm struggling to react because – the horror, rage, I'm just going to start crying on this podcast and not be able to actually give words. I was actually in touch on WhatsApp with several women who I've had the opportunity to work with who are veterans and reservists in the IDF. And there's definitely this kind of secret community of women around the world who have served in combat roles. Even if they weren't in combat, occupational specialties in their countries, where we know what we did, and our service has often gone unacknowledged and erased. And that service is also particularly called upon during the most desperate times, which we are in now. And the message that I have is we see you, we’re with you and we want to run towards chaos with you. 

Dana Levinson Steiner:

Thank you so much, Andrea. Dave?

Dave Warnock:  

I mean, I can't say anything that hasn't already been said. You know, shock, anger. My wife and I are expecting our first child soon. And I didn't think we'd be having a daughter, be worried about like, I just thought, ignorantly, that these sorts of things were perhaps in the past. All I can say to those who are going to go serve is, keep your head on a swivel. Watch out for your battle buddy. All the things we used to say to each other then are still true now.

Dana Levinson Steiner:

Thank you. I think just knowing that you are in community with them, and that they have love and support is so powerful. And as I think both of you know, our ACCESS chapters are all over the world, including in Israel, where a huge number of our ACCESS leaders have been called up for active and reserve duty. So we're thinking of them in this moment. 

And we're thinking of all soldiers as we approach Veterans Day, and we're so grateful for the two of you sharing your story with us and sharing your time with us and giving a voice to the more than 1% we will hope of American Jewish veterans and perhaps even encourage some folks who may have been thinking that this is something that's been on their mind, maybe perhaps it might be the moment for them to lean into that into that journey as a Jewish member of our armed forces. So thank you both for joining us. Wishing you a restful and restorative weekend. And Shabbat Shalom.

Dave Warnock:  

Shabbat shalom, thank you. 

Andrea Goldstein:  

Thank you so much, shabbat shalom.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

What would you do if your son was kidnapped by Hamas? In this heartfelt conversation with Jon Polin and Rachel Goldberg, the parents of 23-year-old Hersh Goldberg Polin, they shared what they know about their son’s abduction from the Supernova music festival on October 7th and the challenges they face in trying to secure his rescue.  Hamas terrorists are holding hostage more than 240 people from over 30 countries, which the couple describes as a global humanitarian crisis that world leaders are not treating as such. They shared ways that we all can keep the hostages’ stories alive and bring them home. Go to AJC.org/BringThemHome to do your part.

Joining us for a second time on People of Pod is Nachman Shai, Israel’s Minister of Diaspora Affairs, to discuss his new role and his critical work supporting Jews around the world, including a recent visit to Surfside, Florida, following the tragic collapse of Champlain Towers South. 

Then, stick around for a special tribute from colleagues and friends to our longtime co-host Seffi Kogen, including Congressman Ted Deutch (D-FL) and AJC CEO David Harris, as Seffi ends his tenure at AJC.

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Episode Lineup 

(0:40) Nachman Shai

(24:00) Seffi Kogen

(27:26) Manya Brachear Pashman

(28:55) Special guests including Ted Deutch and David Harris

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Check out Nachman Shai’s first appearance on People of the Pod

One year ago, Jeff Cohen was taken hostage during Shabbat services by an antisemitic attacker. Hear from Cohen, who is now the president of Congregation Beth Israel synagogue in Colleyville, about all that has transpired since that traumatic day and how the attack has impacted him and the Colleyville Jewish community. Bradley Orsini, the Secure Community Network’s senior national security advisor, also joined the conversation to share what steps American Jews can take to protect and empower their communities amid increasing antisemitism.

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Episode Lineup:

• (0:40) Jeff Cohen, Bradley Orsini

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Show Notes:

Register here for: Surviving Hostage Situations - SCN event on January 19, 2023

Sunday marks one year since attack on Colleyville synagogue 

TranslateHate.com: Stopping antisemitism starts with understanding it

Listen to: 

• Our 2022 podcast episode, right after the Coleyville situation: Inside the Colleyville, Texas Synagogue Hostage Crisis: Hear from 3 Local Jewish and Muslim Leaders on What It Was Like on the Ground
• Our most recent podcast episode: How Hanukkah’s Americanization Became a Show of Jewish Pride

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

The Jerusalem Post’s Lahav Harkov joins us this week to help us understand all of the big news from Israel, from U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken’s visit, to rocket attacks from Gaza, terror attacks in Jerusalem, ultimatums from Russia, massive protests, and proposed changes to Israel’s Law of Return. Harkov is the senior contributing editor and diplomatic correspondent for The Jerusalem Post.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Lahav Harkov

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Show Notes:

Read:

• What You Need to Know About the Palestinian Terror Attacks in Jerusalem

Listen: 

• Our most recent podcast episode: Surviving the Unimaginable: A Child's Story of the Holocaust

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

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Transcript:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

This week, US Secretary of State Antony Blinken arrived in Jerusalem as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu dealt with more rocket fire from terrorists in Gaza, ultimatums from Moscow, and protests to propose judicial reforms and changes to Israel's Law of Return. Here to share what she sees and hears on the ground is Lahav Harkov, senior contributing editor and diplomatic correspondent for The Jerusalem Post. Lahav, welcome back to People of the Pod. 

Lahav Harkov: 

Hi. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So let's begin with the visit by Blinken. His jaunt to Jerusalem was on the calendar for a while. But given the escalation of violence in recent days, and the Cabinet support for legalizing more settlements, did Blinken's agenda change?

Lahav Harkov: 

Yeah, I mean, I'm sure that you know, it's updated according to whatever is going on at the time, he has to be, you know, have his finger on the pulse. And so the issue of terrorism did come up. And he did make some really important remarks, just about how horrific it is and how just completely unacceptable it is to attack a place of worship, as a Palestinian terrorist did on Friday night. But of course, that was followed by another terrorist attack the next morning, in which two people were killed.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So his original agenda included a strategy of how to deal with the nuclear situation in Iran. Can you kind of update us on where Israel stands on that situation right now and how it's dealing with hostilities from Iran?

Lahav Harkov: 

Yeah, you know, it's not so different from what it was in the previous government, right. There's some nuances that are different, but overall, Netanyahu opposes the Iran deal. But that deal is not so much on the table anymore anyway. Netanyahu openly says that Israel has done things to stop Iran from developing certain weapons, which seems to be a hint at an attack in Isfahan, which is a city in Iran, in what apparently was a drone manufacturing site. But of course, Netanyahu would not get into that level of detail. But there's been reports, it was first reported in The Wall Street Journal, that it was Israel that did it, sort of in coordination with the US.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

In other words, taking matters into Israel's own hands and taking care of the situation within Iran.

Lahav Harkov:  

All the reports say generally that it is in coordination with the US. So you know, Israel is doing it. But I guess you could say Israel is taking matters into its own hands, but it's not acting, like at cross-purposes with the US.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So was there progress made in the conversations between Netanyahu and Blinken? I mean, are the United States and Israel still on the same page when it comes to Iran or were there sticking points?

Lahav Harkov: 

Overall, I think that Netanyahu would like a more aggressive approach to Iran. You know, more sanctions, more willingness to strike, but I think that they're still in a good place. Overall, they're sort of, again, working towards similar purposes, working in the same direction. It’s not a point, you know, if Netanyahu was Prime Minister, I don't know, a year ago, and the Biden administration was really actively pursuing the Iran deal something Netanyahu thinks is a great danger to Israel and in the world. That's not where we are, right.

The Biden administration has all but dropped the deal. And with the massive protests and the violent suppression by the regime, you know, the Biden administration is not in a place where it's looking to cut Tehran any slack. So, the differences, I guess, are, maybe they're not small, but they're not as big as they could have been, even just six months ago. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So another topic that Blinken had hoped to discuss this week was diplomatic relations between Israel and Saudi Arabia. I don't know what that did end up on the agenda as significantly as was intended, but how likely is that to happen? And if it's likely, what's the timeline and what are the caveats?

Lahav Harkov: 

So I think it's very premature to talk about a timeline. The Saudis themselves, in any public statement, when the top officials are asked about this issue, they say that there needs to be some sort of movement on the Palestinian file before there can be peace with the Saudis. That being said, that was the case for the entire Arab world for the past 23 years or so, and yet Israel established relations with four different Arab countries in 2020.

And so it's possible that Netanyahu can once again make the seemingly impossible happen. And certainly, you know, I think we saw maybe a baby step in that direction after Friday night's terrorist attack. One of the countries that condemned that attack was Saudi Arabia, which is not the usual thing. And so that was very interesting. But I still think that it's very premature to be talking about timelines. I don't know when it's gonna happen. But Netanyahu is really, really intent on trying.

Manya Brachear Pashman:    

So, Secretary Blinken also hinted that the proposed judicial reforms could undermine Israel's democracy, and that this common connection with the United States, this democratic connection, right. Let's talk about those reforms, which many legal scholars have said, could weaken the Israeli Supreme Court? Can you walk us through those proposed changes and why there's so much concern? And frankly whether that concern is overblown?

Lahav Harkov: 

Yeah, I mean, first of all, I take a little bit of issue with the premise because there certainly were a lot of headlines that said that blinkin said what you said he did. But when you look at what he actually said, which anyone can find on the State Department website. He said that Israel and the US share democratic values.

He said that the sort of very robust debate going on about the judicial issue, but he didn't actually mention the judicial issue, but it was in response to questions about it. And it's sometimes not, but he said the robust debate is indicative of a strong democracy. So none of these things to me sounded like Blinken chiding Israel, I think he was being very cautious. 

And I would be surprised if he did support these judicial reforms, although really, he shouldn't take a position this way or other. But I think that he was a lot more cautious, and a lot more neutral in his statement than the way it had been reported in a lot of places. Now, I understand that behind the scenes, he did express caution. 

But I think the way that this was reported on was sort of slanted and inaccurate, almost everywhere. But moving forward, look, the judicial reform, it goes very far in the opposite direction of where things stand in Israel right now. But where things stand in Israel right now is also extremely unbalanced. You know, you're supposed to have checks and balances between the different parts of government.

And, there's only checks and no balances right now, like the court can really check anything that the government and the Knesset does. But the Knesset and the government have no bearing, no influence practically on what happens. The process of selecting judges, for example, is there’s a joint committee, that includes politicians and judges and the Bar Association. And essentially, it's slanted so that the judges have, you know, outsized influence, for example. 

And all kinds of things like that. It takes a really long time to explain it. So I'm not gonna take our whole half hour to explain the judicial reform. But I will say two things. First of all, I often find it deeply ironic when Americans criticize the reform, because certain parts of it will just make it more like America’s system. Right? So when people say like, oh, it's not democratic, you know, to have politicians having too much of an influence on the judicial selection process, I think to myself, well, how do you think Supreme Court justices are chosen in America, right? 

And then there's just like, another thing that happens in the Supreme Court in Israel is that you have an extremely broad concept of standing in the court, like an NGO can bring a case before the court, even though they have nothing to do with it. Like let's say, I don't know, an NGO can say that Israel is building on property that actually belongs to Palestinians, even if the Palestinians aren't suing, and haven't spoken to that NGO. 

And in the US, right, the idea of who can have standing before the Supreme Court is much narrower than that. So to me, it's like people are hearing what's being said by certain figures that they like to read or hear from in the media and they're just echoing out without really thinking. That being said, I do think that the reform swings, it does like a one ad, right where you have an extremely powerful judiciary and you want to fix that unjust injustice of an imbalance. 

But this reform, the way it stands now, creates a new imbalance, it's just in the opposite direction. But I think that, Israel’s system is built on compromise. We have a coalition system, you have a lot of different parties there. They're sort of push and pull and in the end, you have to agree on something. Now, it's true that this coalition, they all want to make big changes to the courts. 

But I think that in the parliamentary process, which of course, includes the opposition, that they are active parts of the committee that's legislating this reform, I think it will end up more moderate than it is now. 

And you know, and people can debate about the degree right, like to what level should there be reform? Netanyahu says that it's not going to be exactly as it was proposed at first, he says that I will hear the opposition out, and that there will be changes made. I know a lot of people just don't believe him. You know, he is a polarizing figure. But he's not the only person involved with this bill who says that. And so my hope is that that's what will happen in the end. And that, as Blinken, actually himself said, that hopefully they will be able to reach some kind of consensus or if not consensus, than just a broad section of the Knesset working together.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So what is fueling the protests? The direction of the imbalances is particularly sensitive. Is it just the polarizing nature of it being a Netanyahu administration? What's fueling the protests?

Lahav Harkov: 

I actually think there's a little bit of both. I think first of all, there is a subsection of the protesters who are genuinely outraged by the reform, and maybe not the concept of reform itself, maybe they think it just goes way too far and puts too much of the power in the hands of the politician, as opposed to the courts.

You know, there are people like that, certainly, you have a lot of figures from the legal world who joined the protest and speak at the various protests. On the other hand, for basically the entire time since we started our whole crisis where we had five elections in four years, there's been protests outside the Prime Minister's residence as Netanyahu was Prime Minister. So you know, almost the entire time, minus a year and a bit.

And there was a protest movement, and it ebbed and flowed. There were bigger protests and smaller protests. But I just think that this is an outgrowth of that. And honestly, it's been every week since the government was formed. I guess that's like six weeks now. And the first protests were not really so focused on the judicial issue, they were focused on other sort of social issues, which that's also something that we could discuss about this government. But, they then shifted to the judiciary, which I think gave them like, an intellectual gloss, sort of, it made it seem more serious than just people who are angry at this government. But I do think that it certainly was a building on an existing, anti Netanyahu protest movement.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So what are the social concerns causing concern and fueling protests?

Lahav Harkov:

There is a lot of sort of homophobic and very strongly anti-gay rhetoric coming from this coalition, coming from specifically within the religious Zionist party, and some of the things being said are very ugly, and I think like hurtful to people who are gay and there is a lot of concern about that.

And I would also add that there's misogyny coming from the same people as well, in terms of not even just women in the army, because I think it's fair to have a debate about, you know, whether it's appropriate for women to be in combat roles, et cetera. Like there's a debate to be had there. And I wouldn't jump to saying that's misogyny, but other things just about like women's roles in society that, you know, I wonder what year it is when you hear those people say these things.

What's interesting is that it's not the Haredim who are saying either the homophobic or the misogynistic things for the most part, because they, their idea is sort of, we have our community and we do things within our community one way and sort of, even if they disapprove of what other communities do, they're less involved. Let's put it that way. 

But it's the religious Zionist party, which is, for many years, sort of a bridge between those two parts of society. But I would say in recent years, at least, the political religious Zionism, if not the actual communities, leads towards the Haredi direction. So anyway, it's been coming from them. Netanyahu has said that there's not going to be any anti gay laws, and nothing's going to change. I believe him that that's what he wants. I would say that between the judicial stuff, and also, you know, these things about LGBT people, you know, Netanyahu can't say no to everything that his partners want, because then he won't have a coalition anymore, they'll quit, and we'll go to another election.

And so I don't know where the breaking point is going to be. But in order for Netanyahu to maintain his coalition, there will be a breaking point somewhere. Somewhere, he's going to have to say yes, even though he really wants to say no.

Manya Brachear Pashman:    

So another change, proposed change, that has sparked tremendous concern among Jews, at least here in the diaspora, is the possibility that people who are not recognized as Jewish under Jewish law will be restricted. Right now the Law of Return allows every Jew to emigrate to and live in Israel as long as they have at least one Jewish grandparent. The definition of a Jew was based on the Nuremberg laws, in the original law of return. Now, there have been amendments since then that have extended Aliyah, to spouses to children, regardless of whether they're Jewish, how likely is this law to change?

Lahav Harkov:  

So I think it is actually pretty low priority for this coalition. And if it's low priority, then there's always the chance that just with the passage of time, other things will happen. And this won't. So for starters, there's that like, I just don't think there's going to be some sort of rapid change there. That being said, I do think that it is something that people in this coalition want. And again, it's another thing Netanyahy doesn't want.

And also Likud really doesn't want it. I mean, Likud doesn't want rights to be rolled back for gay people either. Don't get me wrong, but like, Likud doesn't want this, it goes against their voter base, a lot of Russian speaking Israelis vote for Likud. And this is viewed by them, and rightly so I think, as a way to stop immigration from the former Soviet Union. 

Because especially now with the war going on, you have many people coming here who, let's say, probably didn't ever see themselves living in Israel and don't really see themselves as Jewish, but because they're sanctions on Russia, life is increasingly difficult there, it's easier for them to come to Israel. 

It's one of these things where, the law of unintended consequences where where the politicians are thinking about one thing, but there are a lot of Jews in the Western world and you know, the majority of American Jews are married to marrying non Jews, you know, the numbers get higher all the time, and it affects people more people I think, than they were thinking about. So moving forward, they're gonna have to have that discussion and they're gonna have to think about it, you know, if they're gonna move forward with this, but I do think that politically they just don't have the numbers for it. I don't think Likud will want that. And Likud is half the seats in this coalition. So you need Likud in order for it to happen.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So I want to shift gears a little bit and go back to Secretary Blinken, who doubled down on the United States support for a two state solution, both Israel and Palestinian state. But there are signs that public support for a two state solution is waning there. Is there really a lack of public support for that solution?

Lahav Harkov: 

Polls have shown that support is waning, both among Israelis and even more dramatically among Palestinians. I don't think it's overblown. Netanyahu talks like someone who does not want a two state solution at all, but the Trump per parameters the Trump plan was, practically, it was exactly what Netanyahu would have wanted it, it's exactly what you're saying- I would accept any plan, which is that Israel can keep all of the communities in Judea and Samaria, and, and applied sovereignty to them. And the Palestinian state would be on parts of the West Bank that, you know, Israelis don't live on. And it would be a demilitarized state that would essentially be surrounded on all ends by Israelis.

Now, that's not a two state solution that Palestinians will ever accept. But that is a two state solution that I think the majority of Israelis would accept if they were presented with that, right. So a lot of it really depends on how you ask the question. But if you talk about a two state solution based on pre-1967 lines, then I think the vast majority of Israelis would not want that.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Okay, Lahav, the last time you came on this podcast, we discussed the really difficult spot that Israel was in, they were offering safety to Ukrainian refugees, they were providing humanitarian aid inside Ukraine, with Russia, right there on Israel's border with Syria. A lot has transpired since then, not least of which Israel has a new administration. So has Israel's position shifted?

Lahav Harkov: 

Israel's position has not shifted openly. Israel's not like sending weapons to Ukraine right now. That being said, the attack on the drone manufacturing site in Iran, which is something that, reportedly Israel did, is something that helps Ukraine a lot. And so Netanyahu admitted it that also in the interview on CNN with Jake Tapper, he says something, you know, like that we we hit back at, you know, Iran's development of different weapons, and those are weapons that are also being used against Ukraine.

And I believe it was Ukraine's defense minister, some important Ukrainian official. It slipped my mind now exactly who it is but after that attack tweeted something to like, We warned you Iran, which sort of hints to you that maybe Ukraine knew something about what was going on as well. So it seems to me that there are things happening behind the scenes. But Israel's not saying it upfront, in order not to antagonize Russia, which really is sitting on Israel's northern border.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Well, Lahav, thank you once again for coming and sharing your perspective from on the ground there. I think that's really important because a lot of people are interpreting and reporting things without actually being there and there's always holes when you try to do that, so thank you so much. 

Lahav Harkov: 

All right. Thank you. 

It is the deadliest antisemitic attack outside of Israel since the Holocaust: On July 18, 1994, Iranian-backed terrorists drove a bomb-laden truck into the Argentine Israeli Mutual Association (AMIA) Jewish Center in Buenos Aires, killing 80 and wounding 300. 28 years later, how has the attack on AMIA impacted the continent, its Jewish population, and its approach to combating antisemitism? This week, Fernando Lottenberg, the first Organization of American States (OAS) Commissioner to Monitor and Combat Antisemitism, and Dina Siegel Vann, Director of AJC's Arthur and Rochelle Belfer Institute for Latino and Latin American Affairs, join us to discuss the progress that’s been made since the attack, and the work left to do in Latin America.

Then, Manya Brachear Pashman reflects on the deadly shooting in Highland Park, IL over the 4th of July weekend.

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Episode Lineup:

(0:40) Dina Siegel Vann and Fernando Lottenberg 

(23:39) Manya Brachear Pashman

___

Show Notes:

A Bomb in Argentina: ‘The Jewish community is standing and fighting.'

Listen to our latest episode: Is the Golden Age of American Jewry Over? An AJC Global Forum Great Debate

Don’t forget to subscribe to People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

Imagine being spat on as you walk across your college campus simply because you’re Jewish or being asked whether you’re a “good Jew” or a “bad Jew.”

As part of AJC’s State of Antisemitism in America 2024 Report, AJC and Hillel International partnered to document the experiences of Jewish students on campus over the past year. The findings are deeply troubling: nearly a third of Jewish students in the U.S. reported feeling uncomfortable or unsafe at a campus event because of their Jewish identity, and 43% avoided expressing their views on Israel due to fears of antisemitism.

In the second installment of this two-part series, meet two students whose experiences reflect these alarming statistics: Evan Cohen, a senior computer science major at the University of Michigan and Vice Chair of Hillel International’s Israel Leadership Network, and Daniel Solomon, a junior studying political science and urban studies at Brown University who serves on AJC’s Campus Global Board.

Resources:

-AJC’s Center for Education Advocacy

-5 Takeaways from AJC’s State of Antisemitism in America 2024 Report

-Go Behind the Numbers: Hear directly from American Jews about what it’s like to be Jewish in America 

Test Your Knowledge:

-How much do you really know about how antisemitism affects Americans? Take this one-minute quiz and put your knowledge to the test. Start now.

Listen – AJC Podcasts:

-The Forgotten Exodus: with Hen Mazzig, Einat Admony, and more.

-People of the Pod: 

• • Unpacking Trump’s Gaza Plan

  • The Oldest Holocaust Survivor Siblings: A Tale of Family, Survival, and Hope

  • Israeli Hostages Freed: Inside the Emotional Reunions, High-Stakes Negotiations, and What’s Next

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

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Transcript of Conversation with Evan Cohen and Daniel Solomon:

Manya Brachear Pashman:

As part of AJC's State of Antisemitism in America 2024 report, AJC and Hillel International partnered to document Jewish students' experiences during their time on campus. Last year, the report found that 43% of Jewish college students avoided expressing their views about Israel on campus or to classmates because of fears of antisemitism. 22% of Jewish students report feeling or being excluded from a group or an event on campus because they're Jewish, and 32% of American Jewish students said they have felt uncomfortable or unsafe at a campus event because of their Jewish identity. 

Here to share their perspective on the ground are two students who have become advocates for their Jewish peers. Evan Cohen, a senior computer science major at the University of Michigan, is the vice chair of Hillel International's Israel Leadership Network. And Daniel Solomon, a junior political science and urban studies major at Brown University who serves on AJC's Campus Global Board. Evan, Daniel, welcome to People of the Pod.

Evan Cohen:  

I wish it was under better circumstances, but, you know, it's a pleasure to be here.

Daniel Solomon:  

Thank you so much for having me.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

So gentlemen, I just read a bunch of findings from the most recent report. Do they seem too high or too low based on your national vantage points? Evan?

Evan Cohen:  

So I think these findings are, sadly, not that surprising. We've seen and experienced an unprecedented amount of antisemitism over the past year and a half, give or take. Clearly, it's rising. Clearly students are experiencing this on their campuses, myself included. I definitely think that, you know, there's probably some cases where students are experiencing it more. In some cases it's less, but I think, you know, in general, it's way too high, like we should not be seeing as much antisemism on campuses.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

And Daniel, what do you think? 

Daniel Solomon:  

You know, the numbers seem about right. I have the opportunity of helping lead AJC's Campus Global Board, which really has a very wide perspective across the world and also across the United State. And we recently just met as a board in Lisbon where we discussed at length new trends over the past year in college antisemitism and around the world. And this really holds. We really found that this data is reflective of what we find in our qualitative experiences.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

One finding I did not just share at the beginning is that roughly 35% of American Jewish college students or recent graduates report having personally experienced antisemitism at least once during their time on campus. Did either of you have a personal encounter of your own over the past year? 

Evan Cohen:  

So a number of months ago, I was walking through the center of campus with a rabbi and a friend of mine, and we were spat at. And the unfortunate reality is, not only were we spat at, but when I tried to report this, I was basically told that, without identifying the individual by name, there was nothing that the university could do. And this was extremely frustrating, because we were spat at. That was a deeply upsetting experience. 

It's something that no one should have to go through just for being Jewish, but the fact that there was almost nothing that could be done about it. Besides, you know, maybe you know, here's how we can support you, which was not something that I was particularly in need of. It was disappointing to see that there was no strong response to that.

Daniel Solomon:  

So shortly after October 7, my friends and I in our apartment, we held a small gathering, and you know, some friends brought mutual friends, and their friends brought mutual friends, which is totally fine. And so someone who I didn't know came up to me and looked at my door frame, and I have a mezuzah on my door frame. And she said, is that your Jew thing? 

Which, yes, it is, but it's called a mezuzah. And she said, Well, are you a good Jew or a bad Jew? And I said, What do you mean by that? And I knew exactly what she meant by that. She meant, are you a Zionist? Or are you an anti-Zionist Jew? And the conversation ended shortly thereafter, and we asked her if she would leave. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

This report came after the protests and the encampments that roiled college campuses, mostly in the spring of 2024 of the Jewish students who witnessed anti-Israel demonstrations after the October 7 terrorist attacks, 51% said that these protests or encampments made them feel unsafe on campus. How did your universities handle the encampments that popped up on your campuses?

Evan Cohen:  

There was an encampment on our campus, it sprung up the morning of the first Passover Seder of last year. And I remember receiving a text at six in the morning or something. I woke up, the first message I saw was, Evan, Do you know what's going on? And I said, Oh my god, another thing to deal with. You know, it's about to be Passover like we're supposed to be preparing for the Seder. And, you know, I think that at our university was handled extremely poorly, you know? We were told the encampment is contained, yet it grew in size, you know. 

So at first it took over the main part of the center of the Diag, which is the main center of campus area at the University of Michigan, and slowly crept out into farther and farther areas of that center of campus Diag. And it was really disappointing, because at the end of the year, when it's finally warm, students are out there, they're hammocking, they're playing sports, even just reading and studying. And at that point, there was nobody besides those in the encampment. And so it really destroyed the end of year atmosphere that everyone always looks forward to. And again, like I said, I think it was handled very poorly. The university did not contain it. The university waited until after graduation. 

They were hoping, I believe they were hoping, that if they waited until after graduation, there wouldn't be disruptions at the graduation. While I personally did not graduate last spring, I  had friends who did, and there were disruptions at that graduation. So clearly, that strategy did not work, did not pay off. 

Sometime after graduation, they announced that the encampment was being removed because of fire hazards. Now these fire hazards were hazards the entire time the encampment was there, I saw students plugging in various electronic devices, keeping themselves warm with space heaters. 

That's not something that you're supposed to be able to do there, and I do have experience, because I've had to reserve that space for, you know, pro-Israel activities in the past, and so I very much understand, first, what the rules and regulations are and how that process works. Very clearly, these rules were violated. And not only that, there was clear antisemitic imaging and speech that was spewing out of this encampment. 

Daniel Solomon:  

So, you know, first and foremost, our campus is a very big advocate of free speech, just collectively. So, you know, when the encampment originally went up, you know, the university made sure to emphasize the fact that, you know, it is free speech. But free speech, you know, has, you know, consequences, in the sense that setting up an encampment is against the university policy. 

So, within those guidelines, you know, the encampment was up for probably a day or two, and then I remember one evening, the members of the encampment started yelling to globalize the Intifada. And this was sort of the call on the university's end to say this is actually not okay. This is when it teeters on free speech and free expression. And, you know, voicing your opinions, however different they might be than most, this is actually when it gets into hate speech. And so that's sort of the moment that our university leadership really, really took, took control of the encampment, and it ended shortly thereafter. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Of course, most antisemitic content and the anti-Israel vitriol is primarily spread online and on social media, and the data back that up, almost seven in 10 American Jews, 67% reported seeing or hearing anti semitism online or on social media in the past 12 months. The number jumps to 83% for young American Jews between the ages of 18 and 29 so your peers, how has social media, the digital landscape, shaped your encounters with antisemitism?

Daniel Solomon:  

Social media is a big part of of our generation, and a part of how we how we bond together. Similar to other universities, Brown has a platform called side chat. Other universities, they might be called Yik Yak or something else. But the only way to access this app, which is a private a private company, not, you know, affiliated with brown, but the only way to actually access the brown only channel in Sidechat is to use your Brown email. So it's sort of an anonymous message board where anyone can post whatever they feel, whatever they think. Sometimes it's funny memes. Sometimes it's satire. 

In the context of the post October 7 world on Brown's campus, it was nothing, but, you know, atrocious really. It was really just a cesspool and a hotbed of antisemitism. And anti-Israel rhetoric that absolutely veered into antisemitism, but also really just classic, flat out antisemitism, you know, pointing out Jews in in, in great positions of authority in the country, and on college campuses specifically, and sort of trying to connect dots that really aren't connectable. And so Side chat was really just a really terrible hotbed of antisemitism. 

And then also, you know, those who were more bold antiSemites would really just blatantly, you know, leave comments in Instagram posts, you know, with their profile name visible, so you knew exactly who they are. And so, you know, the digital, the digital landscape, was absolutely a pretty crucial part of what comprised, you know, the anti semitism happening. 

You know, as I mentioned before, the campus, the campus that we see now is really the one, is really the one that I that I remember, you know, in my freshman year, the one that I made some of my closest friends, on the one where I developed some of my, you know, some of my academic ambitions. The campus that I really fell in love with is the one that I'm seeing now, and much different than the situation that we were in last year.

Evan Cohen:  

I could talk about, you know, two specific examples. One example was the president of our SJP chapter. Sometime, I want to say, around last March, posted something to her personal public account that said something along the lines of death to everyone who supports the Zionist state, death and more, death and worse. And I believe that Regent Acker, who was on the podcast relatively recently, actually spoke about this, I think. 

And that was deeply disappointing to see, because, you know, studies have shown. I even read a study recently, I think it said that about 80% of American Jews support Israel, meaning they believe in Zionism, the right for Israel to exist safely and securely, for Jews to live there in our ancestral homeland. And so to say that, you know, that's basically calling for the death of Jews, the death of fellow classmates, fellow students. So that was, you know, extremely challenging to see and to deal with. 

And ultimately, there were effectively no consequences. The student graduated last, last spring. And you know, we saw, we saw nothing, no repercussions from this, this activity. Another example of online anti semitism. What I experienced was during a trip to Israel last May. As part of this trip, I was going to be bearing witness to the atrocities of October 7, and so we were sharing, me and another student from the University were sharing some of our experiences, and a screenshot was taken of us, and then over, over, on top of it were overlaid messages like settlers scum, and these students were celebrating genocide. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Evan, how have these encounters, both on campus with the encampments and on social media? How have they informed your time working with Hillel on an international level?

Evan Cohen:  

You know, it's very clear that antisemitism is extremely prevalent. It's clear that anti-Zionism, anti-Israel sentiment, is very prevalent, and that we need to be constantly working toward combating it and supporting students on different campuses, this manifests in different ways. So it requires different tactics, different strategies, depending on what school you're at, depending on what your individual needs are. 

But now being in this leadership position, it's amazing to be able to try to offer that support and use my experiences to then help other students on their campuses deal with the troubles that they are going through and what they are experiencing.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

I want to point out that a lot of this happened after the October 7 terrorist attack. A lot of what you're talking about, of course, the survey itself. But antisemitism doesn't just come from anti-Israel corners and Evan I know there were instances of demonstrators waving Nazi flags in Howell and Fowlerville outside a production of The Diary of Anne Frank. Those are small towns about 30 or 40 miles away from Ann Arbor. Have there been expressions of antisemitism from the far right on Michigan's campus? I think

Evan Cohen:  

I think it was like the 2022-2023, academic year, the students received hate mail specifically targeting Jews, saying that Jews run the media, that they're responsible for COVID messages similar to that. I want to say that was even around the High Holidays timeframe. And so this was found like, you know, passed out around off campus, student housing. And so a number of students received messages like that. You know, we also saw post October 7 swastikas on or near Jewish buildings, for example, at Hillel one time. And so, you know, we're definitely seeing anti semitism from both sides. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Daniel, your campus Antisemitism Task Force, for lack of a better term, it initially formed in response to hatred from the far right. Is that right or is that correct?

Daniel Solomon:  

Yeah. So when I was a when I was a freshman, in my freshman fall, a terrible anti semitic threat was sent to the campus rabbi and executive director of the Brown-RISD Hillel that serves both Brown University and the Rhode Island School of Design, and that's sort of where we sort of came together and started really having very proactive and very productive meetings with with Brown's administration. 

Partially, I, you know, I will plug just a little bit that. I think that part, you know, the reason why I was so zealous to get involved was the training I received with American Jewish Committee, with the LFT program, the Leaders for Tomorrow High School Program. 

So we really came together. Started having these conversations with Brown's administration, and created this really, really positive relationship, which I think is a pretty Hallmark component of being a Brown student, is this really, is this really great relationship that we formed? And I think that, you know, leading into October, 7, part of what made Brown's response so effective was that we had this really dynamic relationship with administrators already, and that, you know, there's really no gap in between Brown's institutional Jewish leaders and Brown's administration. 

We have, you know, an incredibly supportive administration. And I think that was something that we saw following the incident and fall of 2022, and something that we continue to see all throughout you know, the post October 7 world.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

And Daniel, I'll ask you the same question I just asked Evan, how has that experience, that experience on Brown's campus, informed your time on AJC's Campus Global Board?

Daniel Solomon:  

To be honest, it's actually a little bit of the opposite. I feel as though my time on AJC's campus global board has really provided such an incredible opportunity to understand the global landscape of campus antisemitism. And also, of course, you know, we want to emphasize the global landscape of Jewish joy that's happening on college campuses, because that is definitely not in short supply.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

You know, I'm curious, do you get questions from your peers back home, your younger peers, questions about whether or not your campuses are the right choice, the right fit for them? 

Evan Cohen:  

I think it's really important to mention that the Jewish students on campus do absolutely have a home here. We're working extremely hard to ensure that there is Jewish joy on campus, and there are organizations here to support Jewish students. It's imperative that Jews come to campus, that we continue to build a supportive community and that, you know, we're not just hiding, we're not just shying away from this. We're actively working towards improving campus and campuses drastically improved in the 2024-2025 school year compared to the 23-24 school year. So, you know, we're standing strong. We're standing proud, and we're not going to back down. 

There is a thriving Jewish community, and we're here to support you. We want you to come here. The University of Michigan has such a large Jewish population in part because a long time ago, the Ivy League schools had quotas on the number of Jews who could attend, and so the University of Michigan did not as such. We have a very strong Jewish community here, and I highly recommend coming here as long as you can bear, as long as you can bear and withstand the cold.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Thank you both for joining us, and reflecting on the difficulties of 2024. May 2025 be more peaceful on your campuses. 

Evan Cohen:  

Thank you very much for having me. 

Daniel Solomon:  

Thank you for having me. 

Hear from two Jewish student leaders at Binghamton University, Seth Schlank and Eytan Saenger, on their experiences amidst rising antisemitism on college campuses in the aftermath of the October 7 massacre in Israel by Hamas. They discuss the strong sense of community among Jewish students on campus, the value of a supportive university administration, and the power of Jewish student-led movements to counter antisemitism. The students also touch on the Binghamton community’s show of solidarity with hostage Omer Neutra, a friend of many, who deferred acceptance to Binghamton before spending a gap year in Israel and enlisting in the IDF.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Seth Schlank, Eytan Saenger

Show Notes:

Listen – People of the Pod on the Israel-Hamas War:

• Matisyahu’s Message to His Fellow Jews and to the Israel Haters Trying to Cancel Him

• Unheard, Until Now: How Israeli Women Are Powering Israel’s Resilience

• 152 Days Later: What the Mother of Hostage Edan Alexander Wants the World to Know

• What It’s Like to Be Jewish at Harvard Among Antisemites and Hamas Supporters

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Transcript of Interview with Seth Schlank and Eytan Saenger:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

According to a recent survey by Hillel, a majority of Jewish college students (56%) say their lives have been directly touched by antisemitism on campus since October 7. Likewise, AJC’s State of Antisemitism in America 2023 Report found that 20% of current and recent students reported feeling or being excluded from a group or event because they’re Jewish. That figure was only 12% in 2022. That’s one of the reasons AJC and HIllel expanded a partnership this week to improve that climate on college campuses and make sure university administrators know how to support their Jewish students. 

We wanted to know what a supportive campus environment looks like. Here to give a student perspective are Eytan Saenger and Seth Schlank, two Jewish student leaders at Binghamton University, the flagship State University of New York. 

Seth, Eytan: welcome to People of the Pod.

Seth Schlank:  

Thank you. 

Eytan Saenger:  

Thanks for having us.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I'm hoping you can share with our listeners what it's been like to be Jewish on campus there in Binghamton. Can you kind of give us a picture of Jewish life on campus both before and after the October 7 attacks on Israel by Hamas?

Eytan Saenger:  

So the Jewish community at Binghamton is known to be one which is very strong. There's roughly over 4000 Jewish students overall. Many students are active in Jewish life. On Friday night, you can find over 500 students having dinner at Chabad, you can find hundreds of students involved in prayers, either on a daily basis or over Shabbat or different holidays and things like that. Events that you see on campus with the Jewish community are packed and bustling all the time. You walk to class, you see people with kippot, Israeli flags. Really, you know that you're a part of a college that is a place that is welcome for Jewish students.

And certainly on October 7, was something that was needed for us as a community to know that we have people to turn to and, obviously, we're in the middle, we were in the midst of celebrating a holiday, which is supposed to be a joyous holiday, celebrating the beginning anew of the reading of the Torah, we were supposed to be dancing, singing, having food, having a good time. But instead that very quickly turned into a realization of the facts and things going on in Israel. 

Acknowledging that there was the most Jews killed in a single day since the Holocaust, which of course dampened the mood of, especially for people like myself, who had just spent a year in Israel, the previous year. And felt such a deep connection to the people of Israel, to the land, to the whole fabric of the society there, and have family there, and things like that, where it's like, really, there was a worry of everything that was going on and trouble and processing everything that was happening. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

What was the response on campus in the aftermath? 

Eytan Saenger:  

We saw the whole community come together. Within the first 24 hours after the holiday ended, we held a vigil in main campus with over 700 students gathered from the community, people from outside the community as well, who were there to stand united, together. Our Rabbi actually where Seth and I, where we go to a lot of the prayers on Shabbat and the community we’re part of, the OU-JLIC community, he actually went back to reserves to fight in Israel within 24 hours and was fighting there and was actually away from Binghamton, away from the students in the community, away from his wife, away from his family for almost eight weeks, in the immediate aftermath. And so that definitely had an impact on us and was something on our minds continuing throughout everything that was going on. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

I’m going to interrupt you here and note for listeners that You’re talking about Rabbi Ben Menora of the Orthodox Union’s Jewish Learning Initiative on Campus, a father of 5, and a commander in an IDF infantry reserve unit. Go on please.

Eytan Saenger:  

But we were able to look towards the fellow people in our community, who you felt the responsibility for knowing that we were all going through a tough time together and knowing that we all had some connection one way or another to things that were going on. And so people were there for each other, people continue to be there for each other and people are still doing things to be there for each other as the war continues to progress. 

And I'm sure we'll go more into this later on, but also the fact that we had an administration who from day one showed up for the community, was at the vigil on day one was at Chabad, the first few weeks, and really went out of their way to show that we know what just happened, we acknowledge the severity of it. And we are here for the Jewish community, even when, and this has been explicitly said by the president himself, even when we know that other administrations at other universities are not there for you at the same time, but we know it's our responsibility to be there for you.

Seth Schlank:  

Yeah, I would say in all aspects of a community, whether you're walking down the Spine, the main part of campus, you see all these Jewish students, whether it's an organization who's tabeling for event that has a connection to Israel, or it's the administration showing up at Hillel for dinner, to spend some time and just talk with you about how you're doing, and how you how the administration is doing their part in making this tragedy and calamity in Israel. Um, for us being so far away, having a very large support system and be able to have someone who we know has our back is amazing.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

As we’ve learned, no university is immune from antisemitism. I understand the Boycott Divestment and Sanctions movement has tried to make inroads there in Binghamton this year; some students have encountered antisemitism online or at protests and hostage posters have been ripped down. So it’s by no means peachy keen.

Eytan Saenger:  

So definitely, as Seth and I have both said, we are very proud of the strong Jewish community we have here. At the same time, of course, there are still things which are on the minds of students when going about their lives on campus. In terms of whether it's a rally held, chanting slogans, which obviously do not make use for students feel any more welcome on campus.

Whether it's an event that was being hosted with a pro-Israel speaker that was met with signs around a room, saying that you guys are complicit in genocide or things like that, which definitely make students think twice, sometimes about, Okay, do I want to be going to this event? Am I in a class with a professor who may judge me a certain way, because I share my stance or things like that? And so that's definitely, unfortunately, not something that we can say does not exist here at Binghamton. 

There have been circumstances of protests, of specific incidents that have occurred, where different students feel different ways about those incidents about those protests and things like that. And some are, let's say more nervous when they walk around and things like that. But I think what we both agree on here is the fact that the overall nature of the campus climate and with the administration support has been one comparatively more welcoming towards Jewish students.

I personally do not feel scared to walk around campus with my kippa on, I'm not hiding my Judaism when I'm walking around campus. Which doesn't doesn't overshadow the fact that there are incidents which cannot be ignored and cannot be understated, but it's definitely something that is presently being thought about.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Eytan, you mentioned that you spent time in Israel between high school and college. Is that common among the Jewish community at Binghamton?  

Eytan Saenger:  

Yeah, so, both Seth and I have spent gap years in Israel, there's a really significant population of Jewish students here who have spent gap years. Also because Binghamton gives credit for spending a gap year in Israel, which is a really helpful tool to a lot of students, who, let's say, are really interested in taking a gap year, but are worried about it delaying their college process more. 

My program alone, last year, I was at Orayta, which is a yeshiva in the Old City of Jerusalem. And there's eight students at Binghamton who were on my program alone last year, and there are plenty of others from different programs across the country, who are at Binghamton as freshmen and then, of course, later on as well. And so that connection to Israel, of course, is stronger for those who spent a full year there. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So I do want to highlight that there is a personal connection between Binghamton and the horrors that unfolded on October 7. Seth, you are friends with the family of Omer Neutra, one of the eight remaining American hostages being held by Hamas in Gaza. He was accepted to Binghamton with plans to attend but joined the Israel Defense Forces during his Gap Year. Seth, what else can you tell us about Omer?

Seth Schlank:  

I've always looked up to Omer, as someone who really understood and knew what it meant to lead. I was a member of his USY chapter when he was the president, when he was on board there. And he moved up a level. And he came on the board of the division, the Long Island division. Then he eventually became the president of the entire [USY] New York region. 

And I think that for me, it was really always natural to see him at the forefront in the room, but also being able to have a conversation with everyone in the room and being able to make everyone there, laugh, smile, and really be proud of themselves and be proud of their Judaism. 

Omer also valued Israel of course, I mean, that was probably one of his, still is, one of his main connections, one of his driving forces. Both his parents are Israelis, he's the grandson of Holocaust survivors. He was always smiling. He really enjoyed, you know, friends, family, basketball, big sports guy overall. 

And we know that he had a connection to Binghamton, and we know that he was accepted here and we want to make sure that this was a place where we can acknowledge that and acknowledge that it's not 5000 miles away. This is something that has happened right in our own campus and someone that we know that we can bring to the forefront.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And that brings me to the event in the university's basketball arena last month, it was organized by the Zionist Organization there at Binghamton and Omer Neutra’s family. Can you tell us a little bit about how many people participated and who participated?

Seth Schlank:  

Yeah sure. So before the event, we had a gathering in the parking lot of the event center where the game was being played. We had about, say 150-200 people at the game itself. So we all gather in the parking lot. We heard from Shira Kohler, who is a family friend of Omer. And whose brother [Ira] is a lone soldier in Tzanchanim, he fought in Be’eri in the first days of the war. Ira’s fighting for Omer and all the hostages. Ira’s time in Gaza is very personal. 

And Hannah Slavsky, another one of Omer’s friends from Plainview, who grew up with us. As well as Bailey Kahn, whose brother was on the volleyball team, where Omer was a captain. 

And they all spoke about different parts of Omer and about who he was. And then we finally heard from Omer’s father Ronan made the trip out to Binghamton and was able to kind of bring us all together and share a bit about his son and was able to thank us for our tireless work. 

Obviously we want to thank him but we were definitely doing this really, all for all Omer. Every single part of this event was something that we wanted to make sure that like Omer was present at. So from there we went down to the basketball game. 

Throughout the game, we held up signs,with pictures of Omer from his time in high school, where he was wearing his Binghamton gear. And showcasing him and his connection to this university, really made it a special event. We had the tagline, the hashtag Bing Stands with Omer. 

And really, that was the whole main part of the event was that we are here with him with his father, with his family, and we're here for you, Omer. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

The pictures I saw of the fans at the basketball game were so incredibly moving. The spectators holding up pictures of Omer as if they were watching the game with him, it was really quite sweet to see. Were most of the students who participated in the event Jewish? 

Seth Schlank:  

I think while we had a lot of Jewish students, there were definitely a couple non-Jewish friends who were able to join. A lot of students grew up in that New York area here. So a lot of them felt connected, Jewish students felt connected. Or they went to this camp, worked at Ramah Nyack, went to Solomon Schechter, and was part of USY. 

So a lot of people here know him through one facet of life or another. And so a lot of students that necessarily had that connection, and also kids who had never known him, as well as other Jewish students and non-Jewish students who joined us.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

How has the university’s connection to Omer affected the climate there on campus? 

Eytan Saenger:  

So, as I mentioned, from the first 24 hours of October 7, the community here was immediately getting together and putting together different rallies, different vigils, different events, and things like that. But there's something a lot more special, about an event where you have a personal connection too, right?  often at the rallies at the marches and things like that. You hear the phrase, right? These hostages are our brothers, sisters, friends, and things like that. 

And right when our peers and they're walking on campus and they see us, they see us holding signs like that as well. But for us, it's really not hyperbole to say that we have friends there we have family there, because there are people on this campus who are family friends with the Neutras, who know Omar personally, and really when they're saying they want to bring their friends home, they are talking about someone who is their friend, who is someone they've spent time with and they're talking about someone who they've played sports with and want to continue playing sports with. 

So it's really not an exaggeration, or just something that we're merely saying but really a reality of the situation here that there are people like Omer, who are still held hostage, who have personal connections to people across the country.

The reason this issue and the reason this conflict is making such an impact and is something that people are investing so much time and advocating for is because of that reality of who is still held hostage and the connection that they have. 

And that has certainly shifted and shaped the way that we have come together here at Binghamton and the way we have advocated. And in fact, after we had hosted the basketball game event for Omer, which had received coverage locally, Congressman Mark Molinero, who represents Binghamton actually went to the House floor and made a speech about Omer about his situation, and about the fact that he chose to come to Binghamton University. Based on the advocacy of the community here. And based on the things that we've been doing, to really put his name at the forefront of our efforts and in the forefront of why we care about what's going on.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I'm curious, and this question is for you, Seth, since you played such a key role in organizing that event in the basketball arena. And you spoke about Omer being such a leader. And I'm curious if these events of the last several months and missing Omer have propelled you into kind of an unexpected leadership role that you never saw yourself in?

Seth Schlank:  

So I think as a leader, I definitely would say, in the roles I’ve held since high school, whether it's been the chapter president of my USY, or the president of the Jewish student union chapter in Plainview, or now in my role on the JLIC executive board here in Binghamton. It's been something that I've always wanted to do and something I've always saw myself as someone who wants to approach people across the room and want to make sure that everyone feels like they could go up and speak.

I think since October 7th, all the leaders that I've been able to look up to in addition to Omer, being able to see that each one of them has brought me to where I am today. Brought me to a place where I feel comfortable being a leader, want to grow myself as a leader even more. And someone who really I think has been a part of that is Omer.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Well, I'm sure his family so appreciated what the community there in Binghamton did. The pictures I saw of the event in that arena, were just incredibly moving. And I'm sure that when he sees them, he will be incredibly moved as well, when he comes home. So thank you so much, gentlemen, for joining us.

Eytan Saenger:  

Thanks for having us. 

Seth Schlank: 

Yes, thank you really for having us. It’s been a pleasure to share our story and Omer’s story.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

If you missed last week’s episode, be sure to listen to my conversation with Grammy-nominated reggae singer, rapper, and beatboxer Matisyahu. We discussed what makes him Jewish and proud, the impact of October 7 on his musical and spiritual journey and how at almost every show on his current national tour, he has faced anti-Israel protests. The prospect of such protests led three venues to cancel his shows.

(0:40) Listeners on #JewishAndProud

(2:16) Leah Garrett

___

Show Notes:

What does being Jewish mean to you? We want to know your answer. Call the People of the Pod hotline at 212-891-1336 and leave a message of a minute or less in our voicemail inbox. Don’t forget to include your name and city with your answer. You may hear your voice on a future episode!

By Leah Garrett:

• X Troop: The Secret Jewish Commandos Who Helped Defeat the Nazis

• Young Lions: How Jewish Authors Reinvented the American War Novel

• I resigned from the CUNY union because of its antisemitism 

Urge the White House to Combat Domestic Antisemitism

Urge Congress to Stand with Israel

AJC’s Emergency #StandWithUkraine Fund

Urge Congress to Counter Russian Aggression

Listen to our latest episode: Rabbi Ammiel Hirsch on How Support for Israel is Key to the Future of Reform Judaism

Don’t forget to subscribe to People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

This week, Mark Weitzman from the World Jewish Restitution Organization, joins us to discuss the links between the October 7 Hamas attack on Israel and the Holocaust, and how Holocaust museums worldwide and in Israel are grappling with the aftermath. As International Holocaust Remembrance Day approaches, we also delve into the direct connection between Holocaust denial and distortion to the denial and distortion of October 7 events, and how both are rooted in antisemitism.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Mark Weitzman

Show Notes:

Learn:

• AJC’s Translate Hate Glossary: See why Holocaust denial / distortion is antisemitic.

Listen – People of the Pod on the Israel-Hamas War:

• A Spider Web of Terror: How Iran’s Axis of Houthis, Hezbollah, and Hamas Threaten Israel and America

• Unpacking South Africa’s Baseless Genocide Charge Against Israel

• Countering the Denial and Distortion of the 10/7 Hamas Attack

• 4-Year-Old Hostage Abigail Idan is Free–Her Family is On a Mission to #BringThemAllHome

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Transcript of Interview with Mark Weitzman:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

One could easily say the October 7 Hamas invasion and massacre in Israel is one of the most well-documented terrorist attacks in history. Dozens of smartphone cameras and GoPros filmed Hamas terrorists crossing the border between Gaza and southern Israel murdered more than 1000 soldiers and civilians and kidnapped more than 200 others, the deadliest antisemitic attack since the Holocaust. But just like the scourge of Holocaust denial, October 7th denial is growing.

Mark Weitzman is the chief operating officer of the World Jewish Restitution Organization, a nonprofit that pursues claims for the recovery of Jewish properties lost during World War Two. 

He's also the lead author of the working definition of Holocaust denial and distortion for the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance known as IHRA, and chairs the IHRA Working Group on museums and memorials. 

As we approach International Holocaust Remembrance Day, Mark has joined us to discuss how we can make sure the world does not forget or deny any atrocities committed against Jews. 

Mark, welcome to People of the Pod.

Mark Weitzman:

Thank you very much for the invitation to be here.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Mark, you are an expert on Holocaust denial and distortion. What does it have in common with the denial we’re seeing around October 7? 

Mark Weitzman:

I think there are clear connections between people who are downplaying or distorting the events of October 7, and those that engage in Holocaust distortion or hardcore Holocaust denial, because both are linked by an attempt to try to explain what is for them an uncomfortable historical reality that targeted Jews, whether the Holocaust or the events of October seventh, to justify their preconceived political agenda, which often includes an antisemitic conspiracy theory, either as its base or as its method to achieve their goals. 

One of the root causes of Holocaust denial distortion, from the antisemitic perspective, is the attempt to say that since the Holocaust, there is a certain sympathy for Jews as victims, and sometimes that turns into political sympathy or support for the State of Israel. Sometimes it turns into actions that are pro-democracy or anti-racist in terms of society and saying that we've seen what happened in Auschwitz, we don't want our society to go in that direction. So we're going to take certain positive steps. Those people who want to turn the clock back to a world where people could still be judged by their religion, their race or whatever signifier, often have to grasp with the Holocaust. It's the paradigm of what can happen when society turns evil. 

The same thing in the sense is at the root of October 7 denial. It's the attempt to say that, Oh, no, we don't want to allow any sympathy to Jews or Israelis, we have to justify it or explain it away in a way that allows us to accept the reality of what it happened, because denying it puts you in a really sort of cuckoo cage of denying what’s obvious to everyone what happened there. 

So in this sense, in a particular sense, it can be by saying that, Oh, yeah, it happened there. The Israelis were killed, but they were killed by the Government of Israel. The hostages were not really taking the Gaza, they're actually hidden in Israeli buildings or holdings. That, you know, this is all part of a plot by Israel and the US government, aimed at undermining the Palestinian narrative and drive for freedom.

But the goal there is similar, it's to grapple with a reality that most people would find repugnant. An anti semitic reality.

The latest poll in the US shows 80% of the US population support Israel versus Hamas. And in an attempt to justify their stance, their pure antisemitic stance, they have to deal with that reality. And so you can't ignore it, you can say it didn't happen. Since as you pointed out, it's one of the most photographed and verified actions in recent memory. So you try to twist it away, and turn it on its head.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

But how do people wrap their heads around this fantasy fiction?

Mark Weitzman:

These conspiracy theories are linked. And I don't think enough people have realized this or paid attention to it, that Hamas’s original charter, 1988, actually quoted, literally quoted the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which is, as we all know, the Bible of antisemitic conspiracy theories. 

And they literally based their charter, it's the only western document quoted in their charter, their original charter. And it links the events of October 7, with the history of antisemitic conspiracy theories. This is not an anti-Zionist document, the protocols, it's an anti-Jewish, antisemitic document. So there's a direct connection there. 

The Holocaust is the most documented event in human history. There are films, there are millions and millions of pages of documents. There are so many archival records of survivors, of perpetrators, of war crimes tribunals that have, you know, judged and and entered into evidence, the effects of the Holocaust, the reality of the Holocaust, not just in the United States. 

But look at the David Irving trial, the famous David Irving trial. But all the war crimes trials in Europe as well, to say that it did not happen, or to twist, it requires an effort of will. And it's not just on the individual level. 

In our work at the WJRO, we see governments today that do not want to deal with restitution, and use manipulation of the Holocaust, to try to get out of it by claiming that it was all the Germans, the local collaborators had nothing to do with it, or that the numbers were inflated or that we don't know what the value was, what was really owned by by Jews at that time. 

All sorts of methods used to evade trying to make some payment, some form of restitution, and then to survivors and part of our mission is to set forth and ensure that the historical record, even in terms of the theft of Jewish property, is well established. 

So when we get to the events of October 7, particularly in an era where fake news, where people claim to believe all sorts of conspiracy theories, whether it's related to COVID, whether it's related to American election results, and a lot of these people kind of bond together. The underground of election denial and some of the anti-COVID extremists, and some of the Hamas or some of the October 7 deniers or distorters. Very often, they live in the same atmosphere, in the same basement, they imbibe the same fumes, they're in touch with each other. Very often they're cooperating or believe in similar conspiracy theories. 

And this is one of the problems that we have as a society, amplified by social media, is to separate the real from the fake, and to try to limit and minimize the impact that the fake has on real life, on mainstream society, and politics, and culture, and so on.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So as I mentioned in the introduction, International Holocaust Remembrance is January 27. You just returned from a meeting with representatives of Holocaust institutions around the world. How did these museums come to be? I mean, was it a bricks and mortar movement to counter Holocaust denial, was it seen more broadly as a tool to fight antisemitism or something else entirely?

Mark Weitzman:

Well, I think that most of these came to be, first of all, through the efforts of survivors. In so many cases, it was the survivor community that were the driving force behind it. And yes, it was in response to antisemitism and to Holocaust denial. But those movements were not, in a sense, the dominant factors that we may think today. 

It was a sense, I think, more of trying to pass on what they went through, both to the Jewish community, their children and grandchildren, and so on, but more importantly, to the community writ large, meaning that to the world at large, whether it's the US or the UK or Canada. They wanted people to learn the lessons from what they had gone through and survived. They wanted people to not to have to deal with the same things that they dealt with. 

And it's fascinating to me, one of the most interesting things that I find in the field is that today, and not only a majority of visitors to Holocaust museums, the vast majority, are not Jewish. But the majority of people who work in these institutions are not Jewish either. There are people who have dedicated their lives to some second career, some it's, you know, a career long commitment to both studying and teaching and passing on lessons of the Holocaust. 

So what began sometimes within the Jewish community, as a survivor-led effort, at this point, there are very few survivors still actively involved in this, especially, you know, on that level, and it's evolved into something that is broader and larger than just the Jewish community.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

We had your colleague Rob Williams at the USC Shoah Foundation join us at the end of last year, and the Shoah Foundation is collecting testimonies from October 7 now. And I'm curious, are other Holocaust Memorial institutions developing programs or adding evidence from October 7, to their collections?

Mark Weitzman:

I think one of the things that came out at the meeting, which was at the Holocaust Museum in Washington about a month ago, was that these institutions are grappling with October 7, and it was very clear. And part of it is that most of these institutions had not tried to be politically based. In other words, they did not conceive of themselves as taking a political stance one way or the other. And the supercharged atmosphere of October 7, the events of October 7, the atmosphere post October 7, caught them, I think, by surprise, and they're still grappling with how to respond and how to react to it.

There has been a tremendous amount of interest, of support. USC is leading the way with a tremendous effort of taping the survivor accounts and making them available. But I saw conversations, we had conversations from certain speakers in how to address October 7, how to deal with antisemitism in the wake of October 7. Because again, these are people who are not necessarily the the you're an expert in the Holocaust is that's really mean you're an expert in what's happening with Israel and Hamas and the Middle East, and, and so on. And it's a very different field, a very volatile field.

And they're in a position that they had not anticipated. So I think that there was a shock. There's a strong sense of moral support, moral based support for Israel and the victims there, there is a strong commitment to, I think, keeping the message of releasing the hostages first and foremost in people's minds. 

But how exactly to go about it, what the best way to achieve those goals is still something I think some of them are wrestling with. Some are doing even little things like one museum that I know of, has in their gift shop, a sort of small section of Israeli objects for sale, that the proceeds will go back to, you know, to some of the communities or some of the people in Israel who have been evacuated or need support. So it can be a small thing like that could be educational programs. It can be public statements that could be hosting events, it could be showing the testimony. It could be learning more about the background that led up to it. There are a lot of potential paths and ways that they're engaging with. And I think each of them are finding their own path right now. But they were in the process of grappling with something that they had not anticipated. And this is somewhat novel, for them to have to deal with.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Generally, do Holocaust institutions try to avoid Israel or kind of leave Israel out of their exhibitions, their collections, and really focus on the Jewish communities of their particular country?

Mark Weitzman:

I think it varies. I think that, you know, in a broad sense, they're not necessarily want to be seen up till now at least, as partisans in a political struggle or political battle. But there was clear recognition in so many of them you that you can't leave Israel out of the story, because you had survivors going to Israel. You had the Zionist youth groups, let's say in the Warsaw ghetto, and other places that It helps spearhead some of the revolts you, if you ignore those parts of the story of the narrative of the Holocaust, then, you know, you're not being true to the history of it. Would you show where survivors ended up after the war? Certainly, you know, a huge number of them, percentage wise ended up in Israel is one of the, you know, the prime spots for survivors to go to. You have many of them worked with Yad Vashem, for example, and have a relationship there. You have the righteous among the Gentiles, which is a story that almost all Holocaust museums wanted to have some focus on, because it's a prime example of non Jews responding in a positive way in the most dire circumstances, but the certification of who is a righteous Gentile came from Yad Vashem, in Israel. So there are, you know, inextricably linked to it, but you went, you didn't, and what they try to avoid, was taking a, you know, sort of a partisan position, should Israel do this action? Should this Israeli Government be supported against that Israeli government or, you know, so on and so forth. 

But the broad idea of Israel's right to exist of Israel as a place of refuge for the survivors as Israel, a change in the narrative of the history of the Jewish people in the 20th and 21st centuries, all those had to be part of the story and are dealt with, but in different ways in in many of these institutions.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So you also traveled to Israel at the end of last year. And I'm curious up until now, how have Israelis talked about the Holocaust? Is it a cornerstone of their history as a modern nation, maybe not so much for the younger generations, and could October 7, connect some dots and change that?

Mark Weitzman:

Well, I led a small mission for the WJRO, and went down south to Kfar Aza. And also met with evacuees. And it was an incredibly moving experience. And the reality of what happened there, going to the exhibition on Nova, music festival is something that I don't think any of us who participated will ever forget. 

And it was interesting, because we had two guides, from the Israeli army, from the spokespersons office from the Israeli army, two young women who were with us in Kfar Aza down at the border, one of the worst hit places. And they made the connection. And we had a Holocaust survivor with us, as well. And she made the connection. 

And there was a resolve that, you know, this is something that we didn't think we would ever have to face firsthand. This kind of targeted destruction of Jewish civilian life. I don't think Israelis have fully come to grasp and understandably, with the implications of what happened, I think it may take even a generation or two, to kind of work this through in some ways, and I don't think…it may be premature to make judgments. 

But I think that there's no question that hearing over and over again, the worst act of violence since the Holocaust, gives a frame and a context that is going to keep the Holocaust as part of the conversation about this. Israel prior to this, there have been a lot of efforts. I mentioned Yad Vashem earlier, it's certainly one of the cornerstones of a historical, cultural life in Israel. But it wasn't the only place, there were other kibbutzim, such as up north, Beit Lohamei Ha-Getaot, the ghetto fighters kibbutz that had the same similar mission of educating about the Holocaust.

The Israeli government that no matter which party the Prime Minister belongs to, has always been very strongly supportive of Holocaust education. Has been a partner key partner of WJRO, and its work on restitution issues and efforts. 

So the Holocaust has been, I think, part of the Israeli consciousness. But I think it was viewed as historical in many ways, this is what our grandparents went through. This is what happened over there in Europe. And now that reality is shifted a little bit, that, Oh, something that can be spoken about in the same sentence, not the same, not comparable in many ways. But it's here, and it's now. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So how do the events of October 7 alter this year's observance of International Holocaust Remembrance Day?

Mark Weitzman:

Throughout the world, I think you're going to hear a lot of linkage in a way of people saying that, we can't forget that, you know, what happened, the victims. So many places are involved, for example, in the reading of names of victims names. And yet, for many of us on a weekly basis, or whenever we can, we still read the names of the hostages, and try to get them returned in those efforts. So there are going to be you know, connections like that connections made about the threat, the ongoing threat to the Jewish people. The fact that since the Holocaust 80 years ago, we haven't faced anything like this, like we're facing today. Um, certainly in the West, the in the United States, the conversation is certainly going to include the fact that Jews are in an unprecedented situation in this country in terms of anti semitism. 

The questions of the people trying to erode support for the existence and legitimacy of Israel take on much more significance, especially as they become much more high profile, the attempts. I'm sure there'll be part of, they are part of the political landscape for the forthcoming elections. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

AJC often cautions against comparing tragic events to the Holocaust because it risks trivializing the genocide of 6 million Jews. But I have heard well-meaning people make that comparison. In this case, is it a legitimate analogy?

Mark Weitzman:

Israel as a state, was able to strike back and respond in a way that Jews could not do during World War Two. Governments in the West–the UK, France, Germany, and so on the United States, of course, first and foremost, have responded forcefully defending Jews align themselves with Israel. Whereas governments in the West prior to World War Two, basically ignored, accepted or complicit in the Nazi actions. You know, those kinds of differences are significant. And the fact that as I said public opinion in the United States is firmly on the side of Israel compared to on the side of Hamas is also significant. 

So I think we have to be careful about making kind of glib historical comparisons. We're not powerless today. We were powerless in the 1930s. But that doesn't mean that our situation is not problematic and dangerous for us today it is. And we have to recognize that. But we need to do that, factually and calmly and realistically, we need to find our allies. And they're our allies, in many places, and to work together with them. Because the threat to us, particularly today, from Hamas, and allied groups like that, and their supporters, whether from the extreme left, the so called progressives, or the extreme right, is a threat to liberal society, in general. And that's something that we need to be able to share, and to work with our allies to turn that thread back.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Mark, thank you for sharing your expertise and cautionary advice. 

Mark Weitzman:

Thank you very much.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

If you missed last week’s episode, be sure to tune in for my conversation with Dr. Matthew Levitt of the Washington Institute as he helped us make sense of the renewed terror threat, how Iran’s terror proxies Hezbollah, Hamas and the Houthis are coordinating their strategy and attacks, and what the U.S., Israel, and its allies are doing to fight back.

AJC Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer Jason Isaacson breaks down what Israel’s recently-enacted judicial reform means for the future of the only democracy in the Middle East. The Reasonableness Standard Law will limit the Israeli Supreme Court’s ability to review the “reasonableness” of government decisions. Isaacson also provides listeners AJC’s perspective on the contentious bill and takes us beyond the headlines to show AJC’s support for President Herzog’s efforts to reach a compromise and what’s next for Israel.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Jason Isaacson

Show Notes:

Learn:

• What You Need to Know About Israel’s Judicial Reforms

Listen:

• Matti Friedman on How the 1973 Yom Kippur War Impacted Leonard Cohen and What It Means Today

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

__

Transcript of Interview with Jason Isaacson:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

This week in Israel, a majority of Israeli lawmakers, those in the governing coalition, passed the contentious and divisive reasonableness standard law, which will limit the high court of Israel’s role to limit and overturn government decisions that seem unreasonable. The new law, the first of several proposed reforms to Israel’s judiciary, follows 29 weeks of protests by hundreds of thousands of Israelis, and has sparked threats by labor unions to strike, by businesses to shift investments, by military reservists to decline to serve.

Joining us today to explain what the passage of this law might mean for Israel’s democracy is AJC chief policy and political affairs officer Jason Isaacson. Jason, welcome to People of the Pod.

Jason Isaacson: 

Thank you, Manya. Good to be back.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So Jason, for those listeners who don’t quite understand the judicial reforms process in Israel, I want to steer them to our show notes to help them get up to speed. Here, I’d like to devote this time to what it means. But first I do have a fairly basic question. Would you please share AJC's perspective on the package of proposals?

Jason Isaacson: 

Thank you for asking, Manya, when the package was put forward by the new governing coalition, the beginning of this year, we we met with senior officials of the government, including Prime Minister Netanyahu, and expressed concern that such an ambitious package should only advance with the broadest possible support in Israel if you're going to change fundamentally, the rules of the game and how Israel is governed, the balance of power, the checks and balances that exist between the legislative branch and the judicial branch. 

And you have to point out that in Israel, the legislative branch and the executive are virtually the same. They're in the same party. So it's the balance of power between the judiciary and the rest of the government. If you're going to make that kind of a fundamental change, you really need to strike a national consensus, the broadest possible consensus. So we encouraged the prime minister, and we also met with opposition leaders early in the year, and an urge that they get together and try to work out some kind of a compromise. 

It's not as though altering the system of government is a crazy thing. The Supreme Court, the High Court of Justice in Israel is an unusually empowered court. It has extraordinary power to strike down government actions. So it's not crazy. And then in the past, over the years, there have been other efforts to adjust it and adjustments have been made in this balance of power, the way the judiciary operates. That passed, there's a multistage process and passing legislation in the Israeli Knesset. If you're going to make these kinds of big changes, you really need to add, look, by the way, look, what's happened in Israeli society over the last 29 weeks, there have been protests every week, sometimes more than once a week, hundreds of 1000s of people have been out in the streets of massive display. Democracy has been on full display in Israel over this period. And it was very clear from public opinion polls, that many of these really public were not happy with this proposal and with the whole package, if it was going to be rammed through unilaterally, so unfortunately, it was pushed through unilaterally this one piece of the package. And now the question is, what happens next? Will we have other pieces move forward unilaterally? Will negotiations be reconvened? We have called for a reconvening of these talks under President Herzog, have met repeatedly with President Herzog and supported his efforts. And we're hopeful that will be where we end up.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You mentioned that democracy was on display with the many protests. But some people have said the passage of this law means that democracy in Israel is at risk. So I'm curious what your take is on that. Is democracy at risk, and why is preserving democracy so important? What's at stake?

Jason Isaacson: 

Well, Israel is a democracy, Israel will continue to be a democracy, there have been many exaggerated obituaries of Israeli democracy. I would like to put those to rest. I'm sorry, that was kind of a terrible pun. But in fact, in our country, there are tensions, we had an uprising on January 6 of 2021. People tried to take over the US Congress and prevent the transfer of power. We have huge polarization and divisions and tensions in our own democratic system. No one would dare to say that America is not a democracy, even with these challenges, even changing voting rights laws, and gerrymandering and all the other things that happen at the state level and the national level, to make alterations in our democratic system. We have our own system of appointing Supreme Court justices, and it's possible for a party in power to prevent the appointment of a justice and to ram through other justices on weird pretexts. 

So it's not as though we have a perfect system, nor does Israel and Israel has shown itself to have an enduring, deeply rooted democracy. I am confident that the democratic traditions in Israel will endure even with this change in the way the balance of power is going to operate going forward. And by the way, it also must be pointed out that even though the Supreme Court, the High Court of Justice in Israel, no longer according to the As law will be able to use the reasonableness standard, in other words to say that a government action, an appointment is unreasonable and therefore cannot move forward. It has other tools that it can use. It's not as though the Supreme Court has been completely denuded and deprived of its ability to counteract, to overturn, to change government policy. 

But it does weaken the process that the Supreme Court has been using in the past. And it is unfortunate that it was rammed through unilaterally, does that mean that Israel is not a democracy? By no means? Does that mean that more work has to be done to shore up Israeli democracy? Yes. And by the way, ours as well, and other countries in which there are these tensions in society. We all have challenges. This is the nature of democracy.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I'm curious if this particular moment, even if it doesn't put Israel's democracy at risk, does it put Israel's economy or its safety? 

Jason Isaacson: 

There’s a danger. We have seen reports that there are people who are withdrawing their investments in Israel, moving them to other countries. That there are Israeli companies that are moving certain operations or certain functions overseas. There are, of course, as we have seen, reports of reservists saying that they will not serve in the military, when they're called for reserve duty. All very concerning at a time when Israel's level of a threat to Israel from abroad is high. There have been attacks on Israel, not only from Gaza, which have been numerous and deadly, but also, of course, on the North. 100,000-plus missiles, maybe 150,000-plus missiles. Hezbollah every now and then someone takes a shot into Israel from there, from Syria as well. Iran continues to advance its nuclear program and its ballistic missile program, and every now and then shoot something in the sky over Israel as well.

So it's not as though the threat level to Israel isn't something we should be concerned about. And therefore the security of Israel must be taken extremely seriously. If reservists are not serving. If air force pilots are not flying, Israel security is under threat. And if that is the result of changes in the governing structure of Israel, it should be a warning, a very sharp warning to the Israeli Government to go slow, as the recent American ambassador to Israel, Tom Nides famously told the Prime Minister and told us when we met him earlier this year as well, they should pump the brakes. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You talked about the many threats facing Israel and for that reason, US foreign aid has been key to maintaining stability in the region. Does this development put that at risk?

Jason Isaacson: 

I don't think so. Obviously, we watch that very closely. We're on the hill all the time. We speak frequently with members of Congress and their staff. You saw what happened the day before President Hertzog gave his address before a joint meeting of Congress, Senators and House members just last week, and that was a vote in the US House of Representatives on the essential nature of the relationship between the United States and Israel, reaffirming the strong alliance between the United States and Israel and that measure passed overwhelmingly, there were nine votes against that. One member abstained. But people talk all the time about elements of the Democratic Party, other opponents of foreign aid who speak out against aid to Israel or threaten to cut aid to Israel. 

You know, when push comes to shove and votes are taken, that's really not what happens at the end. I'm not saying that there isn't a concern about levels of support for Israel in the US Congress or in the broad public. Of course, that is an issue that AJC monitors closely and works very hard to make sure that there's a full appreciation of the value of the relationship, the mutually beneficial relationship between the United States and Israel. Our security is advanced when Israel security is advanced and vice versa, as president Herzog in fact, said in his speech to Congress last week.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

As I mentioned, hundreds of 1000s of Israelis have been on the streets protesting for 29 weeks now, even in the heat of the summer there, which is highly impressive. Some people credit those protests with slowing some of the reforms. Can you explain to our listeners what has been shelved?

Jason Isaacson: 

It's an interesting question Manya because, in fact, as you know, the governing coalition in Israel includes elements that want to see really a complete overhaul of the judiciary and have a complete rebalancing of the relationship of the courts and in the legislature, and are not interested in shelving any aspect of the very ambitious proposal that was put forward at the beginning of this of the term of this of this government.

The Prime Minister has indicated in various interviews in over the last several months, that he was not interested in advancing certain aspects, particularly the override clause, which would have empowered the legislature to counteract moves by the by the judiciary by the High Court to, to negate to cancel certain actions by the parliament or by the government. And the narrowness of that vote, that would allow a very slim majority in the legislature to overrule the court. There have been questions raised about whether other elements of his coalition feel the same way and whether they would prevail with the Prime Minister if push comes to shove. So we're waiting to see really how much is shelved, how much is just kind of shelved temporarily and will not move forward for a few months, but may come back. A lot remains to be seen.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Could the High Court itself overturn this new law as unreasonable?

Jason Isaacson: 

There's been some talk about that. And just earlier this week, colleagues and I did speak to some people in the democracy movement or the resistance, as they call it. And were given the impression that while attempts have been made, there wasn't the expectation that the court would do that. But it's possible to say that an attempt to change the reasonableness standard is unreasonable, and to therefore strike it down, and then and then who knows what happens, but I really do think that the best course of action is to bring the parties back together. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So AJC has been very clear about its support of President Herzog's quest for compromise. The President's position though is largely ceremonial. Can he bring parties together that don't want to be brought together? Can he halt legislation that does not come out of compromise? Does he have any power to do that?

Jason Isaacson: 

The legislation that passes the Knesset has to be signed by the President. But he has no power not to sign legislation that's passed by the Knesset. So in fact, there are laws that go into effect, even without the President's signature, it's an unusual system. He does have certain powers to obviously, as you know, after an election, to ask a party that believes that it can come up with a majority in the Knesset and form of government, he does have that power to empower a party to advance to form a government. But his other powers are quite limited does have the power of persuasion, he doesn't have the power of the bully pulpit, he does have the great moral authority of being the head of state of the state of Israel. He was received in the highest fashion in Washington, very important meeting in the Oval Office, an important meeting with the Vice President, of course, the address before the joint meeting of Congress. And he has played his hand, as limited as it may be on paper, he has played his hand really quite well to the point where he really is at the center of the discussions that have gone forward.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Jason, why is the governing coalition so determined to restrict the high court's powers?

Jason Isaacson: 

Whether this is a matter of protecting democracy, or protecting a nationalist agenda is a big debate that's going on right now in Israel. But whatever it is, you really cannot change the fundamental rules of how a government operates, the balance of power between the branches of government, without support from the public. And right now, the public has pretty clearly expressed great anxiety about the direction that this process is taking. It would be wiser for the long term survival and support of the current government, and of the state of Israel, if such changes are made only as a result of the national consensus.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Israel is so diverse when it comes to religion and ethnicities and cultures. It's so complex, that an independent judiciary seems crucial for making sure everyone shares this land. Everyone is treated by the Golden Rule equally. You talked about the High Court protecting minority rights. Is that why this decision, this attempt at reforms seems so momentous?

Jason Isaacson: 

Yes. And I would say there are other reasons as well. And another point that I think is important to make is that the independence of the Israeli judiciary, a judiciary that is independent from the political process, to a large degree, not completely, but to a large degree is armor for Israel legally, internationally. It is the ability of Israelis to say to those in the international community and the High Court of Justice and the internet. The Court of Justice excuse me and the International Criminal Court and the United Nations and other international bodies that say, Oh, we're going to say that Israelis are committing war crimes or we're going to hold some, some, some mock trial or some other international legal action against Israel. Israelis can say and we say in AJC, that's nonsense. You don't need to do that. Israel has an independent judiciary, if there are crimes that are being committed by Israeli soldiers or political figures, Israel will prosecute them, as they have done repeatedly, Israel will put prime ministers and presidents in jail. So don't tell us that Israelis' ability to judge themselves is somehow lacking.

It's very important that Israel maintain an independent judiciary and the international recognition of the independence of the Israeli judiciary, which is another reason why this whole debate has been so frustrating to advocates for Israel like AJC, who know that the judiciary will remain independent, in most part, and democracy and Israel will continue to be strong, but just the appearance that the independence of the judiciary has been weakened, will be corrosive politically to Israel, internationally and legally to Israel internationally. And that's another reason why we have been so steadfast and trying to urge the Israelis to go slow, make this done in a way that has broad popular support and international recognition that the Judiciary's independence is being upheld and is sacrosanct.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

We’re having this conversation on the eve of Tisha B’av, which is the saddest day on the Jewish calendar. It marks a number of tragic turning points for the Jewish people, but namely the destruction of the Second Temple, and the beginning of Jewish exile from Israel. My own rabbi reminded our congregation that the Jewish tradition teaches that division in the Jewish community is what ultimately led to the Temple’s destruction. And here we are again. How likely is it that the coalition members will fast, reflect, and work to heal this rift in Israel?

Jason Isaacson: 

That's an interesting question, and it was also interesting to see former US ambassador to Israel, David Friedman, make that same reference in a tweet the other day, and really call for a consensus, for a more deliberative process, than the unilateral approach that was being pursued.

We're now about to enter a two and a half month period of summer recess basically for the Israeli Knesset. We'll see what happens when they come back in the fall. There's other legislation that will be coming down the pike as well, including a very ambitious proposal to entrench the exemption for the ultra orthodox community to conduct Torah study, rather than serve mandatory military service that other Israeli young people are required to, to attend. Whether that moves forward, whether that also sparks popular unrest, it remains to be seen. Israel is in a very interesting place right now. The democracy of Israel as we discussed is on full display. People are out there, they're motivated, they're active. And there are tensions within the society that are right on the surface in a way that does not exist in certainly any other country in the region. 

We're very proud of the fact that with free expression and a rambunctious free press, and people who have very strong feelings are not afraid, and have no inhibition whatsoever about stepping forward and trying to affect the policies of their government. There will also be other elections in Israel. And if  the country veers too far in one direction or another, I have full confidence that the Israeli public with its strong commitment to liberal democracy will pull it back.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Jason, thank you so much for your perspective, and for really helping us explain to our audience what this all means.

Jason Isaacson: 

Thank you, Manya. It was my pleasure.

Then, we hear from AJC Abu Dhabi Program Director Reva Gorelick, who just returned from Israel where she accompanied AJC Project Interchange's first delegation of Middle East and North African (MENA) leaders.

___

Episode Lineup:

(0:40) Jason Rezaian

(24:19) Manya Brachear Pashman and Reva Gorelick

___

Show Notes:

What is Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps and Why is it Designated a Terror Group by the United States?

Learn about AJC’s Project Interchange 

Urge Congress to Stand with Israel

AJC’s Emergency #StandWithUkraine Fund

Urge Congress to Counter Russian Aggression

Listen to our latest episode: Setting the Record Straight on Israel’s Support for Ukraine

Don’t forget to subscribe to People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

Ambassador Deborah Lipstadt, the U.S. Special Envoy to Monitor and Combat Antisemitism, joins us to discuss how she’s settled into her new role and shares insights on the development of the new U.S. National Strategy to Counter Antisemitism, for which AJC has long advocated. Lipstadt, a renowned Holocaust historian and one of Time Magazine's Most Influential People of 2023, also delves into the ways in which the Abraham Accords have contributed to the fight against antisemitism in the Middle East. Additionally, she provides an insider's look into the challenges and progress associated with addressing antisemitism and how the National Strategy factors in. 

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Deborah Lipstadt

Show Notes:

Go Deeper: 

• Test your knowledge of the National Strategy to Counter Antisemitism 

Read:

• Everything You Need To Know About The U.S. National Strategy To Counter Antisemitism And AJC's Task Force

• Honoring International Antisemitism Envoys AJC David Harris Award

Listen:

• People of the Pod: Hear from America’s New Antisemitism Envoy Deborah Lipstadt

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

__

Transcript of Interview with Deborah Lipstadt:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Deborah Lipstadt, US Special Envoy to Monitor and Combat Antisemitism is a renowned Holocaust historian, recognized earlier this year as one of Time Magazine's Most Influential People of 2023. She has written eight books, and four years ago, advised the United Nations on its unprecedented report on global antisemitism. In fact, she joined us on this podcast shortly after the report's release. Since then, she has joined the US State Department in a role that for the first time carries the rank of Ambassador. She joins us again this time in our popup Tel Aviv studio. Ambassador, welcome to People of the Pod.

Deborah Lipstadt:

Thank you.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

America's National Strategy to Counter Antisemitism was adopted in May. Your job primarily deals with US Foreign policy to combat antisemitism. But how does this new domestic strategy affect your work?

Deborah Lipstadt:

Well, it affects our work and that certainly I was consulted and worked closely with the White House in the shaping of it, my team played a part in helping to shape it people to reach out to and things like that. And there are over 24 agencies involved including the State Department, we're now looking at all the other national strategies to see best practices, what America could possibly adopt. And of course, informally, I'm the administration's most knowledgeable person on antisemitism. So they turned to me quite often for advice, for ideas, etc.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Okay. All right. Well, so as I said, your role is more international. Do you need a domestic counterpart? Does the United States need a domestic antisemitism czar?

Deborah Lipstadt:

I'm not sure. It's a lot on–the strategy is really run out of the Domestic Policy Council, which until about a week ago, was headed by Ambassador Susan Rice, who was greatly responsible for seeing this thing come to fruition. And we'll see how it works. It's up to them to decide how they want to do it. But I think it's also good that each agency from the usual suspects, as I like to say, homeland security, education, FBI, law enforcement, are involved, but so are so many others. Small Business Administration, Veterans Affairs, Smithsonian, all looking at ways to counter antisemitism, make sure there aren't barriers that are there, whether because of antisemitism or just ignorance.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And second gentleman Doug Emhoff has been certainly--

Deborah Lipstadt:

Even before I was sworn in, after I was confirmed, I was in Washington and he asked me if I would come in and visit with him. We had a wonderful visit. We’re in touch all the time. And he really feels this very deeply. And I give him great credit because he could easily have said, Look, I'm the first Jew in this position. First second gentleman. We put up a mezuzah for the residence. We have a Hanukkah party. We have a Seder. We do other things. Don't ask me to take the lead on this. But he's taken the lead. He's traveled all over, he traveled with me to Poland and Germany, where I coordinated a meeting for him with other special envoys, just to give him a sense of what other countries were doing. 

And I think when he and his staff and other people in the White House who were with us saw that, it sort of energized them to say, my God, other countries have taken this really seriously. They're way ahead of us. We have to do something serious as well.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You know, with that in mind, I mean, if you think about it, your predecessors in this position have kind of made it their business to monitor, sound the alarm about antisemitism in Europe, elsewhere around the world. AJC helped convene that group of envoys at the White House.

And so in many ways, the table's turned a little bit in terms of, you know, instead of the United States monitoring and sounding the alarm, these envoys came and advised the United States. Has this kind of mutual mission actually improved the relationship with some of these countries? 

Deborah Lipstadt:

It's improved the relationship tremendously. We really work as a team, not as a team–each one has its own you know, position, certain things one can get involved in certain things. You know, I lurk and watch what's going on, but I'm not involved in it. But one of the first things I did in fact, it was the same day as last year's AJC Global Forum, which was in New York, I think, at Temple Emanuel. And I was on the stage with Katrina von Schnurbein, the amazing EU envoy on Countering Antisemitism and Enhancing Jewish Life. And then she and I left the meeting with Mr. Lottenberg, Fernando Lottenberg, who's the OAS Special Envoy, and we met with a group of us of special envoys met to talk about how we could work together. 

And so we've been meeting and convening. Katrina convened something that the EU others have convened, and then we meet, you know, sometimes we'll meet through the auspices, let's say, we'll be meeting here because many have come for AJC. But it is a government to government when we meet, it's not, convened by someone else. But it's people who speak for their governments coming together, which is quite amazing. 

I've had great predecessors in this job. They're all terrific. And were strong supporters of me taking the position, very excited about it from both sides of the aisle. And I'm very grateful for that. But there are differences. First of all, Congress elevated the position to an ambassador before I was in the picture. 

So it wasn't for me. And that carries weight in the world of protocol. That means you speak for the President. I see what weight it carries. In fact, I was just in conversation with a Republican senator, around the time of the rollout, because I was briefing him about the national strategy. 

And he had been one of those who had pushed for the elevation of it to be an ambassador. And I said, you know, when I first heard you were doing this, I said, Oh, doesn't really matter. I said, I was wrong, you were right. It really enhances the importance, and it shows how America takes this seriously. But my predecessors, certainly amongst the earlier ones, we were the first country to have a position like this. So when something happened in France, and Belgium and Germany, whatever, they would go, and they would say to the government, you know, we take this very seriously, and we think you should take it seriously.

Or if they were taking it seriously, we take this very seriously, and what can we do to help you take it seriously, and say, you have a problem, we've got to address it. And now first of all, I go and I said, we have a problem, because we have acknowledged that exists in our country. And sometimes I don't have to go racing as they might have had to, because there's someone else there. There's a local person, there's a national person there, too. So the fight has become much more coordinated, enhanced, and really raised to a government level in a way that it hadn't been previously.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Are there particular lessons that you can recall from any of your predecessors? Any of the envoys that you’ve taken to heart and realized.

Deborah Lipstadt:

I spoke to virtually all of them before I took the position. And they each had different advice, and I won't say one or the other, etc. But one the reasons–and I've only been in the job a year, but – building alliances in the State Department. And I'm worried a little bit not because of anything anybody tells me, just natural inclination to worry to be a pessimist so that we can be happily surprised when good things happen or the bad stuff doesn't happen. 

But, would I find compatriots in the State Department, would people see me as you know, an add-on, a niche? Would I be operating off by myself? And that hasn't happened. And it's really been quite amazing. Partially thanks to the advice I've gotten, partially, I think, my own interpersonal connections, but I have built really strong alliances. And I'm not saying I have personally, but people in other offices with other portfolios, see this not as a niche issue. But as a central element of American foreign policy.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

We hear a lot of statistics of incidents of hate crimes each month each year. And I'm curious if that's what matters most. In other words, does the perception of a community also matter whether it's a Jewish community or any other minority community, if that community perceives a rise in hatred against it? Is that enough to amplify our response?

Deborah Lipstadt:

The perception of a community is important, perception of an individual. Sometimes, any community, any individual can see things more dire than they are. But I think if anything, the Jewish community has become more aware of certain incidents and more aware of certain things. Give you an example, New York. I think there were a lot of Jews in New York who didn't take seriously some of the antisemitism encountered by Haredi, Hasidic Jews in Brooklyn, you know, who would walk down the street, get their hat knocked off, or get spat upon. And you could say, Okay, what's the big deal? 

Well, if you're walking down the street, especially walking with your kids and your hat gets knocked off, suddenly you're looking at your father, or your mother gets a little nervous because she's in, you know, other people that she sees people come in and might be dangerous or whatever. And I think now they take that much more seriously. Have that been happening on the Upper West or East Side. We would have been quicker to respond.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Do you think that that is enough for a government, for example, to amplify a response?

Deborah Lipstadt:

Well, certainly a local government, this was happening in New York, but as it became more national, and there's something else in the strategy addresses this. That government can't really deal with, but it can call out. And that's the normalization of antisemitism. And the strategy speaks very directly in the beginning, when it's something I'm paraphrasing, when politicians, when actors, when rap stars, when sports figures engage in anti semitism and amplifies it in a way that it hasn't been before. Government can't stop them. We have that pesky thing called the First Amendment and we all treasure it. 

Even though sometimes it can make us gnash our teeth, the good comes with the bad, or the bad comes with the good. But the normalization, so with the strategy. And when the strategy was rolled out, I spoke from the podium of the White House, one of the things I said: government can do a lot. 

Congress is already doing a lot and is willing to do more. But it calls for an all hands on deck and it has to be a public, the broader society has to be involved in this fight, not just because of protecting fellow American Jews, fellow citizens, but because as I think as listeners to People of the Pod know well, antsemitism is a threat to democracy. I've been talking about it now someone even said to me, the cliche, and I realized that I had been the one to really popularize it, as the canary in the coal mine of democracy. But it's a warning, it's a warning.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You began your tenure with a tour of the Middle East. Saudi Arabia, Israel, United Arab Emirates, Abu Dhabi, right?

Deborah Lipstadt:

And Dubai. The first stop was Riyadh.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Oh, right. Okay. And in fact, you were just in Abu Dhabi again just a few days ago.

Deborah Lipstadt:

I was for a second time, right. And where I encountered an AJC's delegation. But AJC has been present in Abu Dhabi in the Emirates for a very long time.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I want to talk a bit about those visits and the Abraham Accords, which is another circumstance that has changed. I mean, your immediate predecessor got to benefit a little bit from the Abraham Accords. But I'm curious if those Accords are removing barriers, helping foster relationships. And you know, that will only continue to improve the relationship between Israel and Muslim majority countries but also, their receptiveness to your message for combating antisemitism. 

Deborah Lipstadt:

The Abraham Accords are of prime importance. And they've been wholly embraced by the State Department, this administration, and not only embrace, but I've been encouraged to build on them, in part because we see them as a good thing in terms of fostering relations in the region between Israel and these other Muslim majority countries, but also because we see them as enhancing the Middle East enhancing the economy. I mean, it's a great thing when we all go into Ben Gurion Airport and we look up and there's the flight to Atlanta and right in front of it's a flight to Abu Dhabi, you know, or the flight to Detroit, Dubai , you know, it's some people say it's Mashiach, it's the time of the Messiah in that sense. 

The Abraham house in Abu Dhabi, which is a mosque, a church and synagogue is magnificent, of course, that's not part of the Abraham accords. So that wasn't, that was generated in 2018, with a visit of Pope Francis to Abu Dhabi, who said, Let us build the church and a mosque, and it was the leadership of the Emirates that said, let's build a synagogue, to make it a complex of the Abraham House, of the Abrahamic faith. So and then of course, Morocco, which refers to its normalization because it's been doing this for quite a while, Morocco that expects 400,000 Israeli tourists this year. I think last year it had 225,000. And then it's just you know, everywhere. And all those things are good things. And then there are countries which are not yet and I've used not yet euphemistically, part of these things, but see them as working and see them as operating. And I think they're very important.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And do you do feel that they are perhaps more receptive to your message and to listening to what you have to say? 

Deborah Lipstadt:

Yes, of course, I mean, I think even you know, when I went to Riyadh, to Saudi Arabia, I had meetings with high ranking officials, now you can show up and you can meet with the Minister of, I don't know, keeping the paint dry or something like that. Or you can meet with higher level ministers and I met with high level ministers, very productive meetings. And one of my messages was, look, there is a geopolitical crisis in this region, we're well aware that, my country is well aware of it. I work for a government that has hundreds of people actively engaged in addressing this issue. 

But that's something in many respects separate and apart from prejudice, and from hatred. And the example, I had this interesting encounter in either Riyadh and Jeddah with an older imam who knew what was meeting with me and he knew what my, what my status was on my remit, was my portfolio was and he said, If Israel solved the Palestinian crisis, there'd be no antisemitism. 

So there was a part of me that thought, I think there was antisemitism before there was a Palestinian crisis, I think there was antisemitism, for those in Israel, I think there was antisemitism, Zionism, you need to go back and back and back. But I didn't think that was going to get me anywhere, you know, putting it on my professorial hat, my mortar board as we do at graduation and lecturing him on that. So instead, I said to him, after 9/11, in my country, there was a surge, not of Islamophobia, but Islamic hatred. And as you will remember, I'm sure, there was an attempt at one point to build a Muslim community center, opposite Ground Zero, where the World Trade Center had been. 

And in fact that the group that was building it consulted with the Jewish community center of Manhattan, you know, how, what's your experience? What room? Did you build enough? Should we have a gym, swimming pool, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And whatever body whether it was the city council or whatever in New York. New York, the polyglot capital of the United States, refused permission, because they said to build the Muslim community center, adjacent to Ground Zero, when it was Muslims that had destroyed the buildings and murdered the people there, would be an insult. And many of us thought that was wrong. That was prejudice. And I said, why should Muslims in lower Manhattan, a woman who wants a good place for her children to learn about their tradition, or to have an Iftar or whatever it might be a man to go to pray or whatever? 

Why should they be denied that right, because other Muslims had destroyed and attacked the buildings? And the man said to me, you're absolutely right. It was prejudice. I said, well, to say that antisemitism is solely dependent on what Israel does or doesn’t is the same thing. And he got very quiet. I don't think I changed his mind. But he stopped arguing. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Do you see any progress toward people understanding it more as a territorial conflict?

Deborah Lipstadt:

I think so. I hope so. I think it's a continuing, it's not like you get to a point and then well, we're at this point. Now we get to the next point, you know, like I used to lift 20 pounds, I can lose 30 pounds, you know, it goes back and forth. It goes back and forth, depending on the situation. It's a volatile process.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Do you think that getting them to understand it as a territorial conflict would actually fulfill part of your role in terms of combating antisemitism?

Deborah Lipstadt:

Yes, absolutely. But I think it's also necessary not to do things that are going to aggravate or not to do things that are going to make it harder for some of these countries to follow through with the Abraham Accords, so it cuts both ways.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

In May, you and Ambassador Hood attended the annual Lag Ba’omer Festival at the El Ghriba synagogue.

Deborah Lipstadt:

In Djerba, Tunisia.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

The island of Djerba. Tunisia is one of dozens of Arab countries where Jews were forced out and displaced. And I'm curious if you could reflect a little on the situation of Jews in the Middle East and North African countries.

Deborah Lipstadt:

Tunisia is a different story than Morocco, different story than the Emirates, then Bahrain. In that it does have a very small Jewish community. I think there are 1300 Jews in Djerba, been there, hundreds, thousands you know, years. And it's much more a community in Tunis than in a number of other places. But this festival has been going on for quite a while. And it was really reasserting itself after COVID, after an attack about 20 years ago on the festival. And it was so promising. And when I heard that Ambassador Hood, our American ambassador in Tunis was going, I said, you want company, he said, I'd love it. So we went together. 

We visited the school there that is funded by and supported by the Joint American Jewish joint distribution committee, the joint, the JDC, one of the little students showed them how to draw an aleph. It's was very poignant. And we had a wonderful time. And then we went to the festival that night. And it was joy. The night before the deputy minister from the government catered a kosher meal for us, a kosher feast for many of the foreign representatives who were there. And we went to the festival and it was just joyous and we just loved it. We were so happy and meeting people and seeing people and meeting old friends and etc. 

And people are the American ambassadors here, which was very exciting. And we stood in a place and I noticed that our security guards were pretty tight security because of course Americans and back to two ambassadors and personnel from American Embassy in Tunis. We're getting nervous I said, it should relax. 24 hours later precisely in that same place, there was a shooting and two guards were killed. Two Jewish one French, Tunisian and once one Israeli Tunisian, were murdered. So it's very sober. Very, very sobering. And Tunisia was that in the beginning, what we say reluctant to acknowledge this as an anti semitic act they talked about as criminality, they talked about it as terrorism. So Ambassador Hood and I together, not together with, but also with president Macron, and the German Foreign Minister, all said this is antisemitism plain and simple.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And swayed them, turned?

Deborah Lipstadt:

Oh, well, I don't know if we swayed them, but we got them to, he met with the President and met with the chief rabbi. And they changed a little bit, but sometimes it's criminality. Sometimes someone gets mugged on the street, and doesn't matter what they are who they are. But when this guy shot, he was on guard at a naval base. He shot his fellow guard, took a car and drove half hour across the island, to the synagogue, to attack the synagogue. And he didn't say, Oh, they're a crowd of people. I mean, he knew where he was going. And he knew what he was doing.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

My last question is, some listeners might not realize that there is actually a separate Special Envoy for Holocaust issues.

Deborah Lipstadt:

That's right, Ellen Germain.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Your colleague Ellen Germain. Given the rise of Holocaust distortion, trivialization, your candidate, the loss of survivors, how much of what you do now intersects with her work?

Deborah Lipstadt:

Well, we're very careful. I mean, she's really handling Holocaust reparations issues, property reparations, not that we get directly involved, but in urging countries to address these things. But there's not that much overlap. But there’s a great deal of cooperation with us, you know, times traveling together, working together, the more the more.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Are their priorities that you can see for implementing the National Strategy since we started talking about it.

Deborah Lipstadt:

I think there are so many things in there that can be done large and small. I urge people to download it. Maybe you can put the link on your website. It's downloadable. It's 60 pages, read the whole thing. thing. I have to tell you, I knew it as it was emerging. But at one point when I saw a draft of it, and they asked me to go over it, I was abroad doing it in another country. So complicated. But of course, as I began to read it without going into the specifics even have different issues. I was deeply moved. 

Because I don't like to correct my boss, otherwise known as the President of the United States. But when he spoke about it at the White House, he called it the most momentous comprehensive plan the American government has ever addressed and he was wrong. It was the first comprehensive plan that the American government has ever addressed. 

Of course, when there’ve been tragedies and presidents from both sides of the aisle, from all perspectives have condemned, have responded, America has responded. Law enforcement has responded. But this is the first time that the United States government is taking the bull by the horns and saying, What can we do to address this scourge? 

And as I said, from the podium of the White House when it was rolled out, probably making history because it's the first time a mishna was quoted from the White House or talmud was quoted from the White House. I quoted from the verse from ethics of the elders, pirkei avot – lo aleicha hamlacha ligmor, v’lo ata ben chorin livatel mimenu. You're not obligated to complete the task, but you're not free from starting, from engaging in it. The United States government has now seriously engaged in it.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Well, thank you so much, Ambassador.

Deborah Lipstadt:

Thank you. 

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"I want to show the word that you can choose light . . . no matter how much dark you saw, or what's going on in Israel now, or what's going on in the world, there's still a choice.”

As we mark one year since Hamas’ massacre of Israelis, Israeli DJ Daniel Vaknin, 30, shares his harrowing experience from the Nova Music Festival, where 340 attendees were brutally murdered in the deadliest event in music history. 

Vaknin recounts the chaos as rockets from Gaza struck, triggering a desperate evacuation and his narrow escape while being shot at, taking refuge in nearby Kibbutz Sa’ad at the home of an 88-year-old Holocaust survivor. Vaknin highlights the incredible resilience of the Israeli people and the pressing need for global support to bring the hostages home.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.

Listen – AJC Podcasts:

• The Forgotten Exodus: with Hen Mazzig, Einat Admony, and more.

• People of the Pod: 

• Is Nasrallah’s Death a Game-Changer? Matthew Levitt Breaks What’s at Stake for Israel, Iran, and Hezbollah

• At the UN General Assembly: Jason Isaacson Highlights Israel's Challenges and the Fight Against Antisemitism

• From Rocket Attacks to Exploding Pagers: Michael Oren on Escalating Tensions Between Israel and Hezbollah

• Paris 2024: 2 Proud Jewish Paralympians on How Sports Unites Athletes Amid Antisemitism

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Transcript of Interview with Daniel Vaknin:

Manya Brachear Pashman

Daniel Vaknin is a 30-year old Israeli DJ and music event producer. He was not one of the DJs responsible for the soundtrack of the Nova Festival on October 7. He was there as a fan seeking a fun weekend. He arrived less than half an hour before Hamas terrorists stormed the border between Israel and Gaza, killing more than 1,200 people, including more than 300 at the music festival. 

Vaknin managed to survive, but since that day, he has dedicated his time to advocating for the hostages still in captivity. As we marked one year this week since the Hamas terror attacks, Daniel is with us now to share the story of his harrowing escape. 

Daniel, welcome to People of the Pod. 

Daniel Vaknin: 

Thank you for having me.

Manya Brachear Pashman

I can’t imagine, I don’t want to imagine being at a music festival like Lollapalooza for example and it all coming to a sudden and terrifying end. But I think it’s important for us to put ourselves in your shoes. Can you take us back to the Nova Festival that morning? 

Daniel Vaknin:  

So for me, the Nova festival, it's not only the Nova. It's the festival of the trance (with a c) music festivals. It symbolizes and it represents love. It's supposed to represent the connection to the nature it's supposed to represent our connection, no judgment, happiness, joyful, of course, at the end of the day, it's an amazing community of fans of specific genre of music that looking for more and more festivals and more and more events to enjoy, to celebrate, to dance, to express yourself in so many ways. So people think that the festivals or the trance (with a c) music, supposed to be about music, but it's not.

When you go to this kind of festival, to this kind of event, you can walk around and people open up their tents and camps, and they're like way before they plan everything, and they bring their most colorful clothes, and they bring so much food and drinks. And you can really go through the sta;ls and see art and paints and clothes that you can buy and bags that people sell or made by themselves and want to express themselves. People are dancing, it’s a festival. I think that's exactly the description that you're supposed to have when you ask Google, what is a festival? 

So it's not only about music. There's so many things in it, and that's what it represents for us, and that's what it represents for me, because not all the time I'm going only to dance. Sometimes I just want to hang out. Sometimes I just want to see new stuff, buy some stuff, and express myself with different people, to meet new people.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Why did it take place on the Gaza envelope? Was it always in that field?

Daniel Vaknin: 

So for the people that don't live in Israel, and I'm not saying it in a bad way. I'm just saying in general. I want you to know. I want you to understand. I work in the music industry, in the music production for almost 12 years. To make an event in Israel, unfortunately, Israel is a small country. Where it's a blessing and a curse, because it's a small country and everyone is together, but unfortunately, we don't have a lot of space. And we have a lot of borders, and that's okay.

So 70% of Israel's open space, open fields, are military training. You cannot enter or make any kind of events in almost 70% of the country of the open fields, because the military is training there. And it's like you cannot. It's like high called area 51 that you got here, United States, nobody can enter, right? So that's why we got there. And let's say, and again, what I'm saying right now, it can be a percentage here, a percentage there, but let's say 30% that we got left it's or near borders, Lebanon, up north. We got Syria, we got Jordan, we got Egypt, and now we got Gaza. 

And not only that, it means that we got people that owns the lands and maybe doesn't want festivals around their houses, their farms. They don't want you to interrupt the quiet that they have next to their kibbutzim, or, you know, their families, and let's say, even more than that, some of the areas are not proper to have festivals. Like maybe it's too muddy, maybe it's too grassy, maybe it's forest.

Maybe the country, the government there's like, I don't know you call it here, but we have this company. Or maybe it's not the right word, that take care of all the trees and all the forests in Israel, like the government official. And they don't want you to make festivals, because they want to take care of the lands, or they're taking care of the lands right now, or the farms. 

So it happened near Gaza only because of one reason. It's Israel. As long as it's Israel, as long as it's a place that’s called Israel, that's a land of our country, I can make parties wherever I want, as long as it's called Israel. It was near Gaza, because the kibbutzim is near Gaza. 

It's like to ask Sarah Jackson, the Holocaust survivor that host me while I was escaping, why she is living in Kibbutz Sa’ad next to the border, 2.5 miles. If you ask her, that's her house, that's her home for 50 years, even before Gaza. So I think to explain the best way is that I cannot ask you why you're doing in your balcony a party, because that's yours. Once you're out of your balcony, and that's not your property, I can ask you why you decide, or why you chose to do this. But I think as long as my property, it's Israel.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

There was also a ceasefire in place, and therefore a reasonable sense of confidence that it would remain peaceful and safe. 

Daniel Vaknin: 

Yes,right. So all this time we have a ceasefire. Everybody knows about it, and I won't tell you that once every three months, every five months, we're going to have a one missile launch from Gaza, and that's okay, you know, in the circumstances, because we have the Iron Dome, and we understand that sometimes it cannot be so peaceful, because things happen. But we have our military, we have our fences, we have our Iron Dome that costs Israel so much money. Every missile, every this kind of huge operation, costs a fortune, and we do the best we can to defend the country without interrupting the peace. So yeah, it was quiet and peaceful.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

So let's talk about that day and when that piece was broken for you, where were you? And you mentioned the person who gave you shelter when you escaped. Can you kind of walk us through the events of October 7 for you?

Daniel Vaknin: 

October 7 for me, started again a little bit before, because this festival was supposed to start on October 6, 10pm. And was supposed to be one of the biggest festivals that happened, and a good friend of mine was supposed to go. I didn't mean to go because I was supposed to work, and my girlfriend was working there as a bartender, and she arrived with my roommate (back then) around 2am. And both of them called me, and before they left the house, they told me, like, you have to come, if you're not working, I want you to come. 

And you know, when your girlfriend, your amazing friend and roommate, ask you to come, you do the best you can to make it happen. And I had a ticket from a good friend of mine, and then we plan to go around 5am to head to the party, and I pick up my friend Ilya, and we headed to the party, and we arrived to the parking lot at around six in the morning. So I know that everybody knows the details right now. 

So everybody knows that 29 minutes from now, my life's going to be changed forever. But the most important thing is that when people when I'm talking about it, I think what's important for me is that people need to understand that now you know the details, but we didn't know. We always have this amazing feeling above our heads. We always had this blessing that we're coming for the best festival ever, and everything gonna be amazing. 

I want people to understand it, to realize that we didn't had any attention or thinking about something else besides having the best time. So we arrived at the parking lot, we parked a car, and we had it towards the festival, and good friends of ours was coming outside of the party to go to the car, to bring some stuff, and we're so happy. And we hugged, and we had a great time talking, like, really, what's going on in the festival? We're so excited to go inside and see.

And then it was the first second that we heard a whistle, and this whistle was a missile launches from Gaza to Israel, and there's no red alert. So we freaked out, of course, but I like to say that it's not a routine in Israel. I don't want to say it's a routine, but it's not something that didn't happen, missile launches from Gaza, or missile launches from somewhere, and the party is still on, because we got the Iron Dome. You stop the music for a second, you take over, it's done, and you go back to party. And it's not the first time, but this time wasn't the same. 

This time was a barrage of missiles launches from Gaza every second, hundreds of missiles just launches. So the party was over, and someone announced that we need to evacuate. And the party is not coming back. Because people were waiting. And he said, like guys, you have to evacuate. The party's not going on. Leave the perimeter, evacuate, go home. 

And I saw the opportunity of going back home, fast as I can, not because we want to run from the missiles, only because we realize it's going to be a traffic jam, right? So we saw, like, so many cars, and we're like, next to our car. And we said, Okay, let's go home like the car is right here. Let's go. And I called my girlfriend and she said, like, Daniel, don't come. The party is done. I was like, That's too late. I'm right here. And I told like, Babe, I'm going to pick you up. So go out. 

So I jumped back to the car, and we pick up my girlfriend, and we headed home. And at the same time, we're having a FaceTime with a good friend of mine from Israel. He was still in Tel Aviv. Was supposed to come to the party, but he woke up really late, so. We had a FaceTime, and we talked about what's going on, and we laughed about it, right? Like it was breaking news, a missile start and Nova festival is done. Are you coming back home? We're like, Yeah, we're coming to Tel Aviv. What a bummer. We want to have a great party. 

So we started head back home, and that was the moment that we on this route 232, making our way back home, and a police officer stopped us and signaled us to U turn, like we cannot go that way. And he asked us to U turn. And I want you to understand it that all this time, you have unstoppable missiles. The Red Alert is above your head all the time. The missiles is just hitting the ground. 

You can see so many cars stopping, people running, people sitting next to their car, smoking a cigarette, drinking something. And that's another thing that people need to know. People just finished an amazing festival in a second, they were drunk, they were high, and scared. We cannot forget it, that not anyone can handle this kind of situation smoothly, and you don't know where to go, right? 

Because the police officers, and it's really important for me, I'm not blaming them, I'm just saying they didn't know as well. So they stopped us no matter where we go. They asked us to stop here, to stop there, and we cannot go towards this way or that way. So my oldest brother called me and he asked me, What's going on. He knew that I will be in this kind of festival, and I told her, we gotta stop next to one of the kibbutzim to find a bomb shelter, because we have to hide. You cannot stay in the car once you have red alerts, and we're gonna take over, and I'm calling back when it's become a little bit more quiet, and we'll head back home. 

And I didn't have the chance even to hang up, because when I stopped the car and opened the door, that was the moment we were getting shot at with automatic rifles. I want to say that not everyone will recognize it, but the military, the IDF, are not supposed to shoot on automatic. We're not supposed to shoot automatically, only single bullets every time. That's like the rule. That's the law that we got in Israel. 

And when you're getting shot at by automatic rifles, it feels different, it sounds different, and you can hear the gunshots just above your head, just whistling next to you everywhere. And I told my brother, I'm getting shot and I will call him back. And I hung up, and I fell to the ground, and I took cover, and I crawled next to the side of the court, and I yelled to the car that we're getting shot at, so they have to go out. 

So Ilya was laying next to me, and I remember that we saw so many people stopping their car next to us and screaming and running and praying because nobody, no one understood what's going on. Nobody realized that we're in a war again. Now everybody knows it. Now we can picture that, but at the same moment you don't know. Nothing. You don't have a clue of what's coming up. So it's all blurry, right? You don't really understand what's going on. 

And you try to realize where, where you at, or why you're why you're getting shot at. And we took cover, and when I left my head, I didn't see Lala, I didn't see my girlfriend. So I asked Ilya, where, where Lala at and he's and he said that maybe she's in the car. 

Now, an important, an important thing that I took my mom's car and she got a child lock, so if someone's inside, you cannot open the door. So I crawl above Ilya, and I open up the door. And Lala was looking at me with his frightened look, and she was like, I can't, I can't open the door. I can't open it. I was like, I'm sorry, baby, I'm sorry. Just come next to us. So she crawled next to us, and we later cover hats for a few minutes, for a while.

And all this time we have the missiles. All this time we're getting shot at all this time you can hear the bullets hitting the trees next to you. Can hear the bullets hitting the rocks, and people are running, people are screaming, and you don't know what to do. And we've been there for a while, and after a while, I felt like I don't want to stay here, like I don't know where I'm going or where I'm supposed to do but I don't want to stay here. 

So what we did is we said that we gonna crawl next back to the car. We're going to take our seats back so we won't be like in the horizon of the windows that people cannot see or do, or the gunshots won't hit us through the window, and we're going to drive somewhere. I'm going to press gas and run, I don't know where, so that's exactly what we did. 

And Lala was just laying like we're not in the seat, like where you put your dogs at, like, underneath the seat, and Ilya and I were taking the seats all the way back, and I crawled to the seat, to the driver's seat, and just press gas. And in the second I pressed gas, we felt all the car was shaken. And I remember that we really felt the the car moving once I press gas, and Ilya and I looked at his at each other, was like, there was a grenade. We felt it wasn't a missile. 

And I remember we were like, shocked looking at each other. So we drove, like, real fast. And again, imagine that all this time I'm lifting my head, I'm picking every time just to see where I'm heading. So we drove like this for, I don't know, a while, and then after, I don't know, 15 minutes of driving we we found ourselves getting stopped by two bicycle couple. So they went for Shabbat just to have a nice ride, and they stopped us, and they lift their hands, like, you have to stop, you have to stop. 

And she said, like, you cannot go forward. There's a terror attack ahead, and they're shooting it, anyone that comes, and that's the moment you start to realize that, okay, maybe I start to understand what's what I came from. So we're talking about it like, I think that's what happened there, and they tell us what happened there, and we we try to understand the bigger picture. And I remember that we didn't know where we're supposed to go. But I like to call it: the first angel came, and there was a car that is heading towards us, and a beautiful guy jumped from the car, and he looked at all the cars that stopped, and we're like, 20 or 30 cars. 

And it was like, Guys, Kibbutz Sa’ad is just ahead, and I want you all to follow me. They’ll open up the gates and they will and they will let you in. So please follow my lead, park the car outside the gate, and just go inside the gate. And we follow his lead. It's a beautiful kibbutz. It's a religious kibbutz, so it was Shabbat for them, so the gate was supposed to be closed all the time, and everybody was praying in the synagogue, because it was Simchat Torah.

And it was around eight in the morning, more or less. And I want to say between 50 to 60 people from the Nova, kids from the Nova, are running into the kibbutz.

And we don't know what to do. We're just staying at the kibbutz, and there was a soldier that getting treatment next to the gate of the kibbutz because he had a gunshot wound in his stomach. And we see that he's getting a treatment from the city patrol. And even the city patrol that took us in, they didn't know what to do with us. They looked at us with the same look that we're looking at them like we don't know what's going on. Go inside and let's see. Let's figure it out.

And I remember that we just scattered the kibbutz like we just walked and so many kids, so many girls, so many guys around my age are just crying, asking themselves, what's going on. And you start to hear this like people are looking for their friends, like, Hey, where's Rachel? She with you? Where is Avi? Did you see him? So it was a horrific moment at the same time, and you're so useless, and you don't even understand what's going on. 

And we made a lot of noise in this kibbutz. And this kibbutz is like a really quiet. I want you to imagine that when you entered the most quietest place in the world, it's like Yom Kippur. It's so beautiful, so nice. It's Shabbat Simchat Torah. All the porches are have decorations for the Sukkot. It's beautiful. It's quiet, but 60 people right now, with a lot of mud and dust from the party, from the festival, and running into your kibbutz.

And the second angel appeared, and her name was Sarah Jackson. She's 88 years old. She's a Holocaust survivor, and she's an amazing, beautiful person, and she came outside of her house because of the noise we made, and she was standing at her porch. She looked at us with this beautiful look, and she's like, Who are you guys? And we said, it doesn't matter. Can we come to your house? Can we stay in your house? Can we can we hide for a second just to drink something? 

She was like, of course, come in, and when we came in, she offered us, of course, she gave us water and drinks, and she asked if we want coffee, and she asked us if we're hungry.

And she always have this chill feeling. Always chill vibe, no nervousness. The Shabbat, it's Shabbat, it's quiet, the Shabbat will keep us safe, guys leave the phones. And we started talking with her, of course, and she told us a little bit about herself, and we told her a little about ourselves. 

And this time, the information start to come right? We're we're calling our friends that we don't know where they at, or that we lost at the same time, and and we start to gather the information. And I remember I called my my roommate at the same time, like, where, where you at? She was like, two of my friends got shot. Were taking them to the hospital. I was like, What do you mean? What do you mean? Got shot by who she was like, I don't know. They were getting shot at. And I got shot in the car, and two of my friend got shot, one in the knee, one at his shoulder, and I will talk to you later. I was like, okay, just be safe. 

And again, this talks that you have at the same time, it's not reasonable. It doesn't make any sense. You don't know that 3000 terrorists just enter your country. You don't know that right now, people are getting slaughtered in their houses, murdered. You don't know it. And you start to get this piece of information from the news, right? 

You open up the news, and we call our friends, and this friend is hiding in the bushes, and this friend, he's is running for his life, and this friend is hiding in another kibbutz, and some people managed to escape to Tel Aviv, and like they are heading home, they don't know what we're talking about. And so many, so many like different stories right at the same time. And all this time, we get all this piece of information that berries got invaded and and you can hear the people calling the news like the anchor, the anchorman, and like, gasping for help and whispering at the same time.

And it's Be’eri, it’s Kfar Aza and all this time, we ask, Sarah, and she was like, yeah, it's right here, why? Like, okay, never mind. Because we felt like, Sarah, I don't know if she didn't want to know. So she wasn't into all the details, but she was chilled. She didn't really realize what's going on. And we thought that maybe it's good for her not to know what's going on outside. 

And I remember that I was going out all the time, was running, and I have some videos that I was running outside to the gate to see if I can help, to see what's going on, to to ask maybe to patrol, maybe they know what's going on. And every time you're running outside, you're getting red alert. So you have to go back and you do this. And I did it like 5, 4, 6, times, and you can hear the gunshots from Kfar Aza. And now you know that they are inside Kfar Aza slaughtering people. 

And there was a rumor started, I don't know how, and that's how rumors start, that people saw terrorists in Kibbutz Sa’ad, so in the Kibbutz that I was hiding, and I remember that we thought that, Okay, that's it. They're inside. What are we gonna do? We don't have a lot of choice. And what we did is that I told Ilya. I was like, Okay, I'm gonna bring some knives to the bomb shelter, because if they're going to open up the door, at least we can fight, at least we're going to take one of them with us. I don't know, something that we can try to do. 

And I ran to the kitchen. And again, like I told you, Sarah was a chill, quiet person, so the only knife that she had was a butter knife. So Ilya and I was standing with butter knives for a few hours, holding the door. And it was you know, a funny moment, because I have to tell you, I think when I think when, when you filled and you don't have a lot to do, humor kicks in. So we were standing with this butter knives like this, holding the door with a knife that cannot do anything to anyone. 

And I remember that after a while, Sarah looked at us. She was like, What are you doing with my knives? I was like, oh, not a lot, so I don't know. Like, no, take it back. I was like, Okay. And every time she took, we took it back. We brought two others. It was a game like, you know, Cartoon Network we're running, taking it back. She's taking it back. 

And after 10 hours that we've been there, something happened. We had the opportunity to go back home, to drive back home, and I took my mom's car back to the kibbutz, and we jumped to the car, and we went to the other side of the gate, and we asked the commander the military that arrived already if we can go back home, because they told us that if you're going to stay here after six o'clock, you will stay all night because they're going to close the perimeter. No, nobody gets in or out. 

I don't want to stay in the war zone, so we asked the commander, and he asked us peacefully, like, Okay, if you're going home and I will let you go out, please. Are you going only to Tel Aviv? You don't you're not stopping anywhere. I was like, No, we're not going to stop anywhere, promise. Okay, don't look to the side. Just go straight. Just go home. Now, that's a weird, that's a weird thing to ask from you. But we're like, yeah, okay, we understand. But unfortunately, first of all, you cannot, when someone asks you not to do this, that's exactly what you're going to do, let's be honest. 

And second of all, we couldn't even if we wanted because once while I was driving, we saw we had to maneuver in the road that we're going home, between cars that was shattered to pieces. And inside these cars, and outside these cars, there was so many dead bodies of people from the festival. And from our left side, you can always see this black smoke coming up from all the kibbutzim and Gaza.

Because now Gaza is getting hit really hard and really strong from the military and from the Air Force, and it was apocalypse. It was moments of apocalypse. It's one of the most beautiful places in the world, so quiet, so peaceful. And I know it sounds ironic, but it's the truth. 

Like, it's such a beautiful place, and to see it now a war zone, to see the smoke, to see these dead bodies all over and cars shattered. It's a polar [opposite]. It's 180 degrees from what you knew or saw. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Have you shared what you just shared? Have you shared this story with college students in America, or do you rarely retell this story?

Daniel Vaknin: 

I came to United States for the first time in May. I had an amazing opportunity to play as a DJ in a joyful Jewish event that happened in MIT, but it was for 1500 people, Jewish people, just to celebrate, just to be happy, not to talk. And I was supposed to come to this event to play as a DJ, to perform as a DJ, in front of these people, and headed back home after a while, like after eight days. 

But when I went down the stage, when I got off the stage, so many people ran towards me and asked me if I want to come and speak and to share my story in communities, in schools and in synagogue, in temples. I didn't know that at the same time, that's what's going to be, it's going to be something I'm going to do every day now. 

But I had almost 12 events, 12 speaking engagements in two weeks here in Boston, in Miami as well. And I had this amazing opportunity to share my story, to talk, to spread awareness. So I came here only for this purpose. I'm going to be here almost two months, speaking, talking to colleges, talking to communities, anyone and any place that will give me the opportunity and want to hear a Nova survivor experience, like a first hand experience.

And to ask the questions and have this amazing dialog, to hear the truth again. I don't like to speak about politics. I like to speak about what I've been through. I like to speak about my beliefs. I want to speak about my community. I want to speak about my friends. I want to speak about the friends that I lost. I want to memorize them. I want to show the word that you can choose light, no matter how much dark you have, and no matter how much dark you saw, or what's going on in Israel now, or what's going on in the world, there's still a choice.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

And you have a yellow ribbon dangling from your left ear. Do you know people who are being held hostage?

Daniel Vaknin: 

So a month and a half ago, our missing puzzle, our amazing friend Eden Yerushalmi was murdered in captivity after 11 months that she survived. And she was the last person that I knew personally, and we spent some time together, and she's a good friend. Yes, Eden was more closer to my heart and other friends that murdered the same day.

But I can tell you that Eliya Cohen, that everybody's waiting for him to come back. He's a good friend of a lot of my friends, like I know so many people that he's a friend of them. So I cannot say that I'm his friend, but he's one of the family. And each person there, the Bibas, the babies that no one's talk about them anymore, the parents of the kids, nobody talk about them anymore. 

I want all of them to come back home, because again, guys, it's not about right or wrong. It's beyond insane. It's beyond insane that we got a kid that almost a year more than his life is in captivity, and nobody's talking about it. It's, it's not insane. I don't, I don't think there's a word for, for expressing it. So this ribbon, I know it represents hostages, and it's nice to put in my ear, but God, that's not enough. That's not enough, and we need to do more than that, to bring them back home and to bring them safe.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

I want to note for our listeners. That you are in Boston for some speaking engagements, and we're actually speaking on October 2, a day after all of Israel went into bomb shelters following a barrage of missiles from Iran and a terror attack on a train in Tel Aviv. What have you heard from your family and friends back in Israel?

Daniel Vaknin: 

My parents and my brothers are in Israel, and I got younger–my youngest brother is in the army right now. He's 19. He's a combat fighter. He's a commander. And my mom, she got four boys, so she is a lioness. All of us were fighters. All of us been through war. And now the youngest one, and that's the last one. Like she said, no more, no more boys, no more fighters. She wanted peace. And that's the reality right now. 

Imagine that yesterday I was waking up to the news that I know that Jaffa, I lived in Tel Aviv for nine years. So Jaffa, Tel Aviv was like so close, and I got a lot of friends that lives in Jaffa, and I'm waking up to this news that terror attacks start and they're killing people, they're murdering, they're slaughtering people in a train station. And I recognize the place immediately, because I've been there a lot, and there's so many heroes. You know what? I won't give the stage to this. I want to change it. 

There's so many heroes in Israel. My parents are sitting in a bomb shelter and smiling and doing the best they can to keep the morale high. And someone that I know well, and he's a good friend, he was the guy that yesterday went to buy groceries because he did had food with his flip flops and his pistol, because from the moment the war started, he had a license for a gun, and he only went down to buy some food, and he was the one that injured and killed one of the terrorists with flip flops yesterday. So that's the reality, but that's our heroes. They don't wear capes, they wear flip flops, and they're going to buy food. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Daniel, this state of war seems to have no end, no boundaries. Attacks are coming from all directions. As you travel around the States and the world, speaking and listening, what do you find to be the biggest misconception? What do people outside of Israel seem to not understand?

Daniel Vaknin: 

I think if we try to see and we try to fight every single day about religious and who is right and who is wrong, and all this excuses, why we're not supposed to be here. I don't know. Guys, if you don't, if you don't know what you're talking about, don't take a stand. 

Come to Israel. Talk to the Nova survivors. Talk to the kibbutzim. Talk to them, there are human beings that will tell you exactly what they saw, what happened, what they lost, what they're losing. 

You will see an amazing people and strong people that will tell you the truth. That they don't want it [war], not the kibbutzim, not the Nova survivors. No one wants it. But as long as it takes, we will do it. We'll defend ourselves, and we'll be the strongest people that we can. Because we have the right to live. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Daniel, thank you so much for helping us remember what happened a year ago on October 7. Thank you for sharing what I know was a very painful story and journey, but I think it really will impact our listeners and remind them about the horrors we witnessed a year ago. Thank you.

Daniel Vaknin: 

Thank you very much. Manya, it was a pleasure, and thank you for having me.

Ancient texts, traditional foods, and friends and family: the markers of many Passover tables across America. But what if you added something new–or rather, someone new?

Marnie Fienberg founded 2ForSeder, a program to combat antisemitism and honor her mother-in-law, Joyce Feinberg, who was one of the 11 victims murdered inside Tree of Life. The initiative is simple: extend a Seder invite to two people of another faith, who have never been to a Seder before, to build bridges and spread Jewish joy.

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Marnie Fienberg

Show Notes:

Learn more:

• 2ForSeder.org

Listen to AJC’s People of the Pod:

• What the Iranian Regime’s Massive Attack Means for Israel and the Region

• Meet Modi Rosenfeld – the Comedian Helping the Jewish Community Laugh Again

• A Look Back: AJC’s Award-Winning “Remembering Pittsburgh” Series

• Jewish College Student Leaders Share Their Blueprint for Combating Antisemitism

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Episode Transcript:

Manya Brachear Pashman:

A few weeks ago, we re-aired excerpts from our award winning series Remembering Pittsburgh, which marked five years since the 2018 shooting at the Tree of Life synagogue. One of our guests in that series has returned today. Marnie Feinberg founded 2ForSeder, an initiative to honor her mother in law, Joyce Feinberg, who was one of the 11 victims murdered inside Tree of Life. As we approach Passover, Marnie is with us now to share why there's no time like the present to invite first timers to the Seder table, a superb way to introduce people to the beauty of Judaism, like Joyce often did. Marnie, thank you for joining us again. 

Marnie Fienberg:  

Thank you so much for having me. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

So we spoke a little about this project, when you joined us last fall. We have a little more time now to unpack why this initiative is such a meaningful way to preserve Joyce's legacy. Can you tell us about her Seders?

Marnie Fienberg:  

My mother in law as most mothers and mother in laws, she trained me on how to actually hold the Seder. So as you know, holding the Seder is almost like your second bat mitzvah, it's a rite of passage. And it's also a very important thing that, you know, not only are you trained to do it, but you have to incorporate things from, if you have a partner or from their family, you incorporate things from your own life to your family traditions. And all that kind of comes together in this wonderful magical night that is really grounded in the Haggadah. 

But Joyce was of course instrumental and teaching me my mother lives kind of far away. And Joyce and I actually did Seders together for more than a decade. And they started at her house and gradually kind of came over to my house. But she really she helped me every single step of the way, to the point where when she wasn't there anymore, I almost didn't know how to do it. And I'm every time I'm thinking about the Seder and making a Seder. It's it's with her in my head as it has to be. But I still, you know, all of the traditions that she taught me we still utilize those once again, combined with the ones that I learned from my own family and she is a vise still a vibrant part of our personal Seder.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So was Joyce in your head still when you found 2ForSeder? 

Marnie Fienberg:  

Oh, absolutely. Well, I am a Jewish woman. And I can't sit still. I need to do something. We have tikkun olam kind of almost in our DNA. Yes. So I really wanted to not only bring her back, which I think is a natural sort of a feeling. But I also wanted to push back on all of the antisemitism that had removed her from my life. 

And people were constantly coming up to me, I mean, the community in Pittsburgh and the community where I live in Northern Virginia, everybody was very supportive. But they were constantly asking me, What can we do? And it took me a little while to realize they didn't, they did mean, what can I do to help you? Of course, they did mean that. But what they really meant was, what can we do to stop this from ever happening again? I don't have the answer for that. 

But I thought that the seder kind of came into my mind because I was really inspired by what Joyce always did that she brought students or faculty, you know, because she was a campus researcher, and my father in law was actually at Carnegie Mellon. He was a professor there. And they always had people who weren’t Jewish at our at the table. And the discussions were always not only very interesting, but you always saw a very different perspective, when they participated in something in a ritual that you knew so well. And it really created bonds of friendship, even with people who I didn't know. Which was wonderful. 

So that's what I really wanted to encourage, you know, this was 2018 when she was murdered. So 2019 was the Seder and I just wanted to encourage every Jew in America and in Canada, because Joyce was Canadian, that they, if they if they were holding the Seder, invite to people who had never been to a Seder before, start that dialogue, invite them to the intimacy of your home, and make them part of your family for that one night. 

And that will really help them understand the joy of Judaism, the happiness and the reason that we are Jewish is, it's right there in the Seder. In every Seder I've ever been to, it's always there, and to share that with someone who is not Jewish, starts the dialogue to understanding about the differences between us, the similarities, all these great things, that this is a thing that combats the hate that took my mother in law.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

These are uncomfortable times, they were certainly uncomfortable back in 2018, when the Tree of Life happened, but they're uncomfortable times again for the Jewish community. For everyone really? Who's watching what's been going on in Israel since October seventh. What does the Seder offer? And how do you avoid some of the pitfalls that can arise? When you do bring people perhaps have different perspectives around a dinner table?

Marnie Fienberg:

I'm glad you asked that question. Because my family and Joyce, you know, we feel very strongly about what's happening in Israel, we have a lot of family over there. A lot of friends, like everyone else, we all know someone in Israel. And it's a part of what's going to happen in your Seder this year, I assume almost everybody's going to do something to remind them about, you know, that the hostages are still not freed, that there are people that are starving, but are being helped. This is a difficult situation, it's not a simple, straightforward thing. And the Seder Absolutely, is a reprieve from that for a moment. I think the idea of the Seder is about reaffirming your Judaism, because it takes you on that journey from when we were a tribe, to a nation. It's that little piece in the middle. But it's when you reaffirm your Judaism every year. So it's still important to do it. It's so important to do it your way. And if you want to have a reminder of the hostages, an empty seat at the table, something on the Seder plate, there's so many different ways that you could do something. I think that all of those things would be absolutely important right now, something that reminds you that we're doing this, not just for our family, but we're going to be doing this for those families that are missing those members right now. So I think that the the Seder in general will be healing to some extent for everybody who participates. So inviting someone who's never been to a Seder before. I think it's important, not only do you explain the Seder, which you really do need to do, you have to explain it before you start. And then they can participate and feel comfortable. But also explain to them that if you are going to be doing something to remember the hostages and all the people that were lost, let them know ahead of time that that's what you're going to be doing. You don't want to surprise your guests, your other guests will know exactly what you're doing by the guests who are not Jewish. Don't assume that they know, make sure there's great communication, and everything should go very smoothly.

Manya Brachear Pashman 

So I appreciate you kind of mentioning some of the rituals that we can do to honor the hostages and to remind the guests that the hostages are not free. But what about guests who come to the table who have been watching what's going on and disagree. They have really strong emotions and opinions about what's going on there between Israel and Hamas. And I asked this because I know Joyce worked at the University of Pittsburgh, as you said her husband Steven was a professor at Carnegie Mellon. And they often invited students to dinners and Seders. You might have seen the dean of Berkeley Law School has an annual custom of inviting students to his home for a dinner with students. And recently a group accepted that invitation showed up, but then got up from the table and pulled out their megaphones right there in his backyard. So it's hard to believe that that level of rudeness is possible. But it does appear to be a real risk. So can you offer some tools or tips on how to avoid that kind of a response? Or how to respond if you get that kind of behavior?

Marnie Fienberg:

Absolutely. And, you know, it's interesting, I think that we feel a heightened sense of that this year. But it's interesting, that is one of the most asked questions that I always get: How do I ensure that my guests don't veer into politics or if they have disagreements or things along those lines? Probably not the first year so much. But the other years, we've always had questions along those lines. So my recommendation is that you lay some ground rules ahead of time. So as the leader of the Seder, you're not just the head mom or the head Dad, you are the facilitator of what's going on around your table. And while some of us will have five people around the table, some of us will have 30 people around the table, and some of us will be in the backyard with I don't know how many people that the Dean had. But regardless of any people you have, you still have to manage their expectations. It's very important. So when you lay ground rules, it's your choice. You may want to actually have a lively debate. Many Seders are a lot of fun when there's a lot of debate. And if you know the guest, and you know that that's what they're interested in talking about. And the rest of your guests would be okay with it. That is your choice and you should manage that but even with that You might want to say, look, we're going to venture into politics, we can't talk about X, Y, and Z. Or I'll let you know when we've gone too far. Or, hey, this now it's time to bring out the dessert, because that'll stop everybody from talking. I don't know, that's going to be your choice. There is the other side of the coin. And this is actually I live in Washington, DC, where politics is always quite a big deal. But other politics, right, all sorts of politics. So one of the ground rules we always have at our Passover Seder is to have no politics at all, this is a little island, we're not going to talk about the fact that you might be one party, I might be another party, he is going to be another party and y'all work for those parties. I mean, it's not like these are just opinions. So one of our ground rules is always this is a time to focus on once again, the joy of Judaism, the joy of reaffirming my beliefs, and being with my family. And really kind of feeling like this is a very, very special time. And I personally have never wanted politics at my table, because I want that joy to fall through. But when I've been to other tables, it's been very different. So my ground rules are always this is a politics free space. If you'd like to talk about politics, let's go out for drinks after Passover.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

So it's a great point about being in Washington. But again, there's a chance that politics will be brought up at every table, whether it's California or Nebraska, or Texas or Maine. So if it does get tense if people ignore the ground rules, for example. Any suggestions on what to do? 

Marnie Fienberg:

Yes, actually, we do have a couple of tools in our toolkit. So two first Seder, if you go to our website to crusader.org, we actually have two kits, when you hit the signup button, it's two free kits for you. One is for your guests to kind of set expectations about the Seder, not about politics, it doesn't touch about that. But it's still important. But the host kit actually has 20 discussion cards in it. And I would actually recommend it if you've started out with a little bit of excitement with politics, and you don't like the way it's going, or if you want to say, look, I really want to avoid it. But I know, this is a lively crew, which I mean, you know your people, right? So I would actually print them out, put the discussion cards out on the table, and actually start picking up some of them and you know, send them around the table and start having discussions about them. So they are more about the Seder. And some of them are pretty surface level, like, what do you think about the taste of matzah, and you're having a discussion about how all these things are cooked with matzah and how crazy that is and how difficult it is and what a genius your chef must be, you know, so you get to compliment the host or hostess. But on the other side of it, there's some deep waters that it goes into, to really talk about the philosophy behind the Seder in some deeper things. So you can really choose what you want. There's 20 different discussion cards. And I think when people are having a very tense discussion, if you say, look, I like where this is going. But it's just not appropriate for today. We've got an alternative here. Let's keep talking. But let's talk about these topics. It won't always work. But it tends to work me most people really, you know, they have strong opinions about many things. And that is what the Seder is for, right? We're supposed to be learning, we're supposed to be growing from each other. So if you can change the topic, if you're uncomfortable with it, the discussion cards are a wonderful tool to help kind of guide that. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

And those can be downloaded at the 2ForSeder.org site. 

Marnie Fienberg:

Yes, yes, exactly. There's a host toolkit. And it's the last 20 pages of the host toolkit. You

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

know, I'm so glad Ramadan has passed so that in a Muslim guests are able to come and enjoy these saders Without the concern of breaking their fast. But I know that a little has been written about how Jewish Muslim relations have been on edge. And honestly, I have a few Jewish acquaintances who were nervous about attending if tars during Ramadan or weren't invited to as many if tars during Ramadan this year, just because of the potential for tension. Are you hearing any concerns about or from the Muslim community? Or are you hearing that people are sadly turning down invitations for similar reasons?

Marnie Fienberg:

Yeah, I think that as you said, this is a very challenging year. And if you don't feel comfortable, you're not going to a particular place. And I have Muslim friends and normally I am invited to if tours across the month, and I received very few invitations this year, which was interesting. We're still friends. The friendships haven't ceased or anything like that, but the invitations were not their part. To the reason what I did ask part of the reason they felt that they shouldn't be celebrating when people are starving and Palestine so they actually toned down their celebrations out of respect which that's a longer conversation, but I respect that and I appreciate that. Would they be coming to my table? I don't know. We have a community Seder a community to for Seder that we hold every year. So most of to First Aiders about home Seders, you know, so the idea of doing it in your home that is the primary core of twofer Seder. But we've started a nice little thing on the side, where we do a community to for Seder, where everybody we actually invite interfaith groups. The spirit of twofer Seder is about building a bridge. And I hope actually in the past, if you've done too, for Seder before, thank you, but be I hope that those bridges are holding during these troubled times. And if you can't build them during a difficult time like this, you know, I'm hoping I'm praying that next year, there won't be no war, and we'll be able to mend some of these fences and you will be able to invite and accept invitations to Iftar invitations to your Seder for your Muslim friends, I think it's important to keep trying. That's one thing that we are obligated to do as Jews, that may not work, but you'd have to keep trying.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

One thing I've noticed over the years, and the many Seders I've attended is the diversity of traditions and the customs some families put an orange on the table and have a glass for Miriam, other stick to Elijah. So make sure the Afikoman is chocolate, others play it straight. Some change the lyrics of the songs to fit Beyonce tunes, I won't lie I've done that. But does that present a challenge to the purpose or the goal of two for Seder? You know, the goal being to teach a newcomer about Passover? How do you do that? When it's you know, the traditions can be so different.

Marnie Fienberg:

This is also very–well not the Beyonce piece. But that's a very common question. First of all, I want to say I would really like a copy of that, please.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

I'll dig it up for you. 

Marnie Fienberg:

Thank you. But that's the whole point that the Seder is blue door for door right we are Lincoln a chain from generation to generation and the core of the Seder the Haggadah, regardless of if you do a traditional haggadah that is, you know, four hours long starts after sunset, maybe you eat by midnight, you know, if you're doing a modern Orthodox or an orthodox Seder, or if you're doing a very, very modern said Seder, which just has the basic four pieces in it. And Tiktok you're done. I'm starving. It's been 10 minutes. Welcome to my my dad. Actually, that's the way he does his. But I've been to all different types, because you know, almost all of our Jewish families, we have a variety in our family, we have Orthodox, we have reform, we have everything in between, right? That's what it's about. It's about the magic of what you bring to your Seder. The haggadah is going to ground you, you've got the grounding story about our journey to becoming a people. That's the core, but what you do a round it, that's you, you are bringing you and your family and all the things that bring you joy, into your Judaism, into your Seder. And these things are critical.

If you just read the Haggadah, and then you walked away, it wouldn't be joyous it would be yes, I was here. But the joy behind it is removed. So the idea that you know, you almost always have children at your Seder, and there's a rule for the children. Why is that? There's a role for the adults to teach the children. There's the food, there's thinking about the future when you sing Eliyahu with the door open so that your neighbors can hear you and wonder what is going on. I mean, all of these things. There's personal ways to put a stamp on those. But we're going to do those. And even if you do it to Beyonce, once again, very excited to hear that. It's really bringing that modern tinge to it. When we're going to hand the hat over to our children. When they do it. They're going to do something different and there'll be wondering who's Beyonce? That's okay, that's okay. But they're still going to do the for questions. They're still going to do the monkey, they're still going to do the Eliyahu all these pieces will still flow. I have proof of this. When I was working to create the community to for Seder. I wanted to create our own Haggadah, and I use of course haggadot.com To start off with, but I really wanted certain things that weren't in there and and I got stuck and I'm sitting here staring at the screen and my teenage daughter walks in and And she actually wanted to help me right there. I know you don't believe me, but she sat down. She said, How can I help? And I was walking through some of the more traditional lines. I don't know why they always took my heart, you know, where they say, you know, in God with an outstretched arm and outstretched hand and the old language, right? Should I keep it in the Haggadah, or should I not? And she looked at me like I was nuts. And she said, of course, you have to, you must, it won't be the Haggadah without it. And that really made me feel like this is going to pass down, at least in my family. These words are so intrinsic to who we are, somehow it gets passed down. It's amazing.

Manya Brachear Pashman 

My last question is, who will be coming to your site or table this year? 

Marnie Fienberg:

So I'm holding two Seders, although I'm going to three. The first one is the community Seder that is being held in Temple Emanu-El in South Hills right outside of Pittsburgh. And I'm gonna be sort of emceeing it. And we're going to be using the Haggadah that we talked about. And that will be I think there are three different churches that are joining and all sorts of different folks. And one of the tables is actually just teenagers. So I'm really excited because, you know, sometimes to first seders is of interest to adults, and not so much the younger set. Although at our last community Seder, we had a lot of college kids, we had a huge table of college kids, which was great. So I think that that's gonna be a wonderful Seder. The next Seder is going to be the second night we'll be at my house, my friend is holding it the first night at her house. Second night will be in my house, we're having 25 people's the current count, although, you know, it's Wednesday, so somebody's gonna have too late of a night or whatever, so they won't be able to come. But we're really excited because this is more even though there will be some family coming in. This is more of like, a friend Seders the second night for us. So it's going to be a wonderful night. Who's gonna be my two for Seder. This is once again through my daughter. She has a friend who is actually Korean, and her family is going to be joining us. I'm so excited her families, they're wonderful folks. And the one thing I'm nervous about is that they are amazing cooks, and I'm not sure if my cooking is going to stand up to their skills. So hopefully it'll all work out. But it's gonna be a lovely night as it always is.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

That sounds truly lovely. 25 people, Marnie, you are a brave woman, a brave hostess.

Marnie Fienberg:

I wish there was one more that was coming, but she will be there in spirit.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Yes, absolutely. And thank you because I know it's a lot of hard work to put together a Seder. But again, so important it is such an anchor, I think for families and preserving our traditions. So thank you for all that hard work that's going into that Seder.

Marnie Fienberg:

It is my pleasure and I think every single person who's putting together a Seder and participating in to for Seder, if you've done it before, thank you, if you're interested in doing it again, we've got little kids to help you but just be you and it's about inviting new people every year. And that's how we're going to help really make an awareness about what it really is to be Jewish, not what you hear, you know, the negative rumors, replace those with positive Jewish joy. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Well, thank you so much, Marnie. The website to download discussion cards and toolkits, all the instructions that you need to host a Seder with a guest is at two, the number two for seder.org Marnie, thanks again for joining us.

Marnie Fienberg:

Thank you so much for having me. This was a great discussion.

This week, Academy Award-winning director Guy Nattiv discusses his new film 'Golda,' which follows the journey of Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir as she navigates the tense 19 days of the 1973 Yom Kippur War. Nattiv delves into how Helen Mirren, who portrays Golda Meir, expertly embodied the role. He also shares why, being a child of '73, he felt so compelled to tell this story. Tune in to hear the poignant anecdotes from the set and learn about the involvement of war veterans in the filmmaking process.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Guy Nattiv

Show Notes:

Watch:

• ‘Golda’ opens in US theaters starting August 25th from Bleecker Street / ShivHans pictures–find theater and ticket information at www.goldafilm.com

Read:

• Tough Questions on Israel Answered

Listen:

• Matti Friedman on How the 1973 Yom Kippur War Impacted Leonard Cohen and What It Means Today

• The Rise of Germany’s Far-Right Party and What It Means for German Jews

• AJC Archives

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

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Transcript of Interview with Guy Nattiv:

Golda Meir [from AJC Archives]:

We’ve suffered because of our stance, which is not just obstinacy, not just because we liked it this way. But I think it has been accepted more and more that we have something at stake, and that’s our very existence. Whether the borders are such that we can defend them or not, is a question of to be or not to be.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

That's the late Prime Minister of Israel Golda Meir speaking with AJC about fighting wars to defend Israel's existence. The movie Golda premiering in American theaters this week tells the story of one such battle: the Yom Kippur War of 1973 when Egypt and Syria launched a surprise attack against the Jewish state. Here to talk about the movie and why it's an important story to share with the world, especially through Golda Meir's eyes is its Academy Award winning Director Guy Nattiv. Guy, welcome to People of the Pod. 

Guy Nattiv: 

Hi, Manya.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

So Guy, as we just heard from Golda Meir herself, Israel has been defending its very existence since its creation, in war after war after war. Why did you want to direct a film about this particular war, which turned out to be quite a turbulent moment in the life of the Jewish state? 

Guy Nattiv: 

Well, I was born into this world, in a way. I'm a child of '73. My mom ran to the shelter with me as a baby, my father went to the war. And I grew up on those stories, of Golda, of the war, and I really wanted to know more, but there wasn't any way of knowing more. And I think that 10 years ago, protocols came out and gave a sense of what really happened, protocols from the Agranat Committee, from the war rooms, from the government. All those declassified documents. And that shed a different light on what really happened there, and on Golda. And doing the research on Golda  and talking to people who really knew her, gave me a sense of why we needed to tell the story. It's for my generation and for the generation of my fathers’ and mothers’. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

So who made the decision to cast Helen Mirren as Golda Meir? 

Guy Nattiv: 

I wasn't the one who casted Helen. When I came on board, Helen was already attached. I think that Gideon Meir, the grandson [of Golda], he was the one who thought about Helen first, he said, I see my grandmother in her. And when I came she already read the script, and it was only meeting me to close the circle. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

And what did she bring to the role?

Guy Nattiv: 

Humor, humanity, wisdom, charm. It's all there. But she brings a lot of human depth to the character.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Were there conversations off camera during the making of the film about Israel, about its history, about the lessons learned in this moment in its history, with Helen Mirren, or other cast members?

Guy Nattiv: 

Yeah, but the problem is that we don't really learn, right, because look what happened now in Israel. It's the Yom Kippur of democracy. So I don't think we learned enough. Where we are basically in the same situation, as '73, with a leader that is so disattached. At least Golda believed in the judicial system, she believed in High Courts, she was a humanist. She believed in democracy, full democracy. And I think the situation now is so dire. And when I went to protest in Israel, I went to protest with a lot of veterans from the war, who had the t-shirt 'This is the Yom Kippur of democracy.' We're fighting, they're almost fighting again, but this time not because of our enemies, because of ourselves. We're eating ourselves from within.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

I'm glad you mentioned the veterans of the war because this was such a painful conflict for Israel. Such a tragic blow to the nation’s psyche. More than 2,600 Israeli soldiers were killed, 12,000 injured, nearly 300 taken prisoner. What do you believe this film offers those veterans?

Guy Nattiv: 

I think it brings a lot of humanity to Golda, who they saw as just the poster, as just a stamp, as just a statue, right? She was somebody who's not human. And I thought that Helen in the way that the film is structured is bringing Golda in a human way. And they see her struggle. And how she cared about those veterans. How she cared about every single person, every single soldier that died in this war. She wrote every name. She took it to her heart. And I thought that was something that veterans would respect. And also what I did is, when I edited the film, I brought five veterans from the front, a lot of them watched the movie in the first cut, the really first offline cut, and they helped me shape the narratives and bring their own perspective to this movie. So I thought that was very cool.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

You've made it clear that this is not a biopic about Golda Meir. This is really about this moment in history.

Guy Nattiv: 

No, it's not your classical biopic, if you want to do a biopic about Golda Meir, you'll have to have a miniseries with eight episodes or more. This is an hour and a half, on a very specific magnifying glass on the requiem of a country. The requiem of a leader. The last of Golda. The last days.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Let’s listen to a clip from the film that really shows why Golda Meir was known as the Iron Lady of Israeli politics. Here’s Helen Mirren as Golda Meir, sitting across the table from Henry Kissinger, played by actor Liev Schreiber.  

Clip from ‘Golda’:

Golda Meir (portrayed by Helen Mirren):

This country's traumatized. My generals are begging me to occupy Cairo. And Sharon is, is like a dog on a leash.

Henry Kissinger (portrayed by Liev Schreiber):

If you do that you will be on your own. Israel's long term interests will not be served by a fracturing of our relationship, Golda. Sadat has already agreed to the terms of the ceasefire.

Golda Meir (portrayed by Helen Mirren):

Of course he has. He's on the brink of defeat. It will give him a chance to regroup. You are the only person in the world who could possibly understand what I'm going through.

Henry Kissinger (portrayed by Liev Schreiber):

Yes, I know how you feel, but we need a ceasefire.

Golda Meir (portrayed by Helen Mirren):

I thought we were friends, Henry.

Henry Kissinger (portrayed by Liev Schreiber):

We will always protect Israel.

Golda Meir (portrayed by Helen Mirren):

Like you did in ‘48? We had to get our weapons from Stalin. Stalin. Our survival is not in your gift. If we have to, we will fight alone.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

So Guy, what would you include in a mini series, if you produced a mini-series instead?

Guy Nattiv: 

I would go to her childhood in Ukraine, probably, I would show her family in Israel. I would show more of her relationship with Lou Kedar, they were really close, her assistant. There's a lot of things that I would do, but not in the format of a feature. Although if you want to do something like you know, a four and a half hour feature, like, used to be in the 80s or the 70s. They were massive, like Gone With the Wind. This is something else. But this is not this movie. This movie is really a specific time in history.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Through her eyes, basically.

Guy Nattiv: 

Through her eyes.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Yeah.

Guy Nattiv: 

Under her skin.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

I'm curious, if in the making of the film, there were any kind of surprising revelations about cast members or their perspectives, their opinions, or revelations about the history itself.

Guy Nattiv: 

One of the guys that was a stand-in, he was an extra in the movie. He was at the table of all the ministers. Ephri, Ephraim, his name is. I played the siren in the room. So everybody will get the siren, and the long siren. And he started crying. And he said, I'm sorry, I cannot really stay here for long. And I asked him, why not? He said, because I'm a veteran of the war. I was 21 when I went to the tunnel, and I fought. And he lives in the UK. And we shot the film in the UK and he came and it was amazing. And he came to Helen and me and he showed us photos of him as a 21 year old from the war. It was very emotional, it was surprising, he's only this extra. Who is a war veteran, who's playing a Minister.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Wow. Did he explain why he tried out, or auditioned to be an extra, why he wanted to do this?

Guy Nattiv: 

He’s doing a lot of extra work in the UK. You know, he moved to the UK and is an extra in a lot of movies. And when he saw that this movie exists, he said, I must come, I must be one of those ministers. And we needed a desk full of ministers, you know, and he was the right age. So he's just an extra. That's what he does. I don't know if he thought that he would be in the same situation. I don't think that he thought that. Because he didn't read the script. It was a very emotional moment. And a very emotional moment for Helen.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

So this was filmed in the UK?

Guy Nattiv:

It was filmed in an Indian School, outside of London. The Indian abandoned school that was basically huge, like, massive. Arad Sawat, who is my production designer, he basically created the entire kiriya [campus/city], and war room and all the bunker and Golda's kitchen, he built it from scratch, exactly like it was in Israel. And it was crazy. It's just like walking into the 70s. Me, as a grown up, you know, and seeing Helen as Golda. And the commanders. It was surreal. Just surreal.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

And how did you gather those kinds of personal details about her life? In other words, like, did you have pictures, plenty of photo photographs to base that on?

Guy Nattiv: 

My two sources were Adam, her bodyguard, that gave me all the information, and her press secretary, who's 91, who told me everything about her, and books that were available for us, and protocols. It was very specific protocols that showed us how everything went down.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Did Helen spend a lot of time with those people as well to really get a sense, and I'm curious how else she prepared, if you know, how else she prepared for this role, to really embody the former prime minister?

Guy Nattiv:

It was her own private process. I didn't get into it so much. But I think that she read all the books. She worked with a dialect coach to understand how the Milwaukee accent, to talk in the Milwaukee accent. Walk the walk. I think she prepared also with an animal coach. There's a coach, every actor becomes, every role it's a different animal. And you behave like this animal. You take the physiques of this animal. I think she was a turtle. I think that Golda was more of a turtle. The way she spoke. Everything was so slow. So I think that she became, she did, the way she carried herself like a ship  into this. So it was a lot of metaphors, a lot of stuff, a lot of tools that help actors get into the role. But when I met her, and that was after like three and a half months we didn't talk, she was Golda. It's almost like she got into the trailer as Helen and she came out as Golda. We didn’t see Helen, we saw Golda. Even when we spoke and we ate lunch with her, we saw Golda. And so at the end of the 37 days of shooting, I was like, you know, I don't remember how you look like, Helen. And only in Berlin Film Festival, when she gave us Helen Mirren, is where we really saw her.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

So you mentioned Berlin, the film has premiered there in Berlin, also has premiered in Israel. I'm curious how audiences have received it in both places. Has it hit different chords in different countries? 

Guy Nattiv: 

When non Jews see the movie, I mean, they have lack of emotional baggage. And they see it as something foreign in a way. But for Jews, for Israelis, there's a lot of emotional aspects to it. So it's, yeah, it's different. It's a different view. But a lot of people that are not Jews are still really like, this is such an interesting, we didn't even know about her. You know, a lot of people are learning who she was. And they didn't know. It's like she paved the way to Margaret Thatcher. And to Angela Merkel. So they see now what's the origin of that.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

That's a really wonderful point, it being filmed in the UK and premiering in Berlin.

Guy Nattiv: 

[Angela] Merkel said that Golda was her inspiration.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

So how do you expect it to resonate here in the United States?

Guy Nattiv: 

I really feel that it's just starting out right now, we had an Academy screening, and I'm getting amazing text messages from people from that generation. But I also would love for younger generation to know about that and explore Golda. Yeah, I mean, I'm interested to know, to see how it is. But I know that it's very emotional for the Jewish community. I can feel that.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Do you think this film will change how people view Golda Meir and Israel’s leaders in general?

Guy Nattiv: 

I hope it will spark a nerve in a way that we are in the same situation now. And people will see that history repeats itself, in a way. It's not the same exact situation. But it's the blindness that our leaders are in right now. And I hope it will bring a different narrative to the character of Golda, and who she was, not just the poster, not just the scapegoat. Because she was the scapegoat of this war. It was easy to blame her for all the faults of her commanders and all the other human intelligence commanders and what happened there. But it's just, she's not the only one. She's not the scapegoat. She was actually very valuable for Israel, because she brought the shipments from the state, of the planes and the weapons. She was in charge of it. And I think without that, we would probably find ourselves in a different situation.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Golda was the first female head of government in the Middle East. Do you think her gender had something to do with her being blamed or the being labeled the scapegoat, as you said? 

Guy Nattiv: 

Absolutely. Absolutely. I truly believe that with more female leaders in this world, the world will be a better place. I feel that men proved us wrong. You know, I want to see Tzipi Livni leading Israel again. I want to see more women in key roles and leading countries. I think the world would be a better place. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Guy, thank you so much. Really appreciate you sitting down with us.

Guy Nattiv: 

Thank you. 

Join us for an exclusive conversation featuring three women leading transformation in the Middle East. Ayelet Nahmias-Verbin, Chairperson of the Israeli Export Institute, speaks to promoting Israeli exports and fostering economic growth; Gadeer Kamal-Mreeh, a Senior Envoy at The Jewish Agency for Israel, discusses fostering connections and supporting Jewish communities in the region; and Aviva Steinberger, Director of Innovation Diplomacy at Start-Up Nation Central, touches on harnessing innovation and technology for positive change. Led by AJC Abu Dhabi Program Director Reva Gorelick onstage at AJC Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv, this conversation offers valuable insights into the transformative efforts shaping the Middle East today.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

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Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Reva Gorelick, Ayelet Nahmias-Verbin, Gadeer Kamal-Mreeh, Aviva Steinberger

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Show Notes:

Listen:

• People of the Pod: 'Signed, Sealed, Delivered?': Exploring Israel's Declaration of Independence with People of the Pod and Israel Story

Watch:

• AJC Global Forum: Women Driving Change in the Middle East - video of the full session, as heard on this week’s episode.

• More sessions from AJC Global Forum 2023

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

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Transcript of Interview with Ayelet Nahmias-Verbin, Gadeer Kamal-Mreeh, Aviva Steinberger:

Manya Brachear Pashman:

The role women play in pursuing peace and progress in the Middle East is too often overlooked. But my colleague AJC Abu Dhabi Program Director Reva Gorelick is not one to leave such an important stone unturned. At AJC Global Forum 2023 in Tel Aviv she led a fascinating conversation on "Women Driving Change in the Middle East." This week’s podcast brings you a portion of that conversation with Ayelet Nahmias-Verbin, Chairperson of the Israeli Export Institute, Gadeer Kamal-Mreeh, a Senior Envoy at The Jewish Agency for Israel, and Aviva Steinberger, the Director of Innovation Diplomacy at Start-Up Nation Central. We open with Reva posing a question to Gadeer.

Reva Gorelick:

Gadeer, in your career, you have broken barriers in many ways. And I'm going to read because there's so many ways that I want to make sure that I get them right, as the first non Jewish broadcast anchorwoman here, both in Hebrew and Arabic, and then as the first Druze woman to serve as a member of Knesset, what have you learned about the appetite for change and for representation of historically marginalized communities in this part of the world specifically? And how did these trends track with what you're now seeing as an emissary for the Jewish Agency in America?

Gadeer Kamal-Mreeh:  

Good morning. So long story short, so much, I learned so much. I'm still learning, I'm still growing, I'm still listening. And I'm still amazed to see the social impact of simply our existence, simply of being or living or achieving or talking to each other. And look at us today, this morning. The first of us, each one of us, based in different countries, speaking different language, different religion, different fields, but we are social agents. And this is what my father told me, always, as a child, you are a social agent. You are not privileged to live your life in a way that you are consuming reality, you have to shape reality. 

And I did social activism even without knowing that I'm doing social activism. I broadcasted my first TV show when I was 12 years old. I believe in people, I believe that we have the ability to change reality. And then being in those positions as first, as firs, as first, when you are how I always introduce myself by saying hello, my name is Gadeer. I am an Israeli but not a Jew, I am an Arab but not a Muslim, I am a minority within the Arab minority, my mother tongue is Arabic, married religion is Druze. I'm a proud Israeli citizen..good luck. So having such a unique identity, and being the first in those positions is something that a stranger would not understand the complexity and the beauty that you have. And so I started to write my book because I'm afraid that we cannot have, we don't have enough time to talk about it. 

But I learned so much the most important thing that I learned is engage, engage, engage. It doesn't matter where it doesn't matter how it doesn't matter with whom. Engage as a social agent and activate your role in shaping public opinion. I had so many stories in my life, Reva, in which I was amazed and telling myself, Yes, we can. Yes, we can. Being the only woman in so many rooms, I'm sure that Ayelet and Aviva also understand what does that mean to be the only woman. Nobody asked you if you want to represent women, you are a representative of women. So talk, represent, share their stories. And two weeks ago, we were in DC and we initiated some of the prestigious forum that you will hear about, and we were 18 successful leaders in Washington DC, but guess what? I was the only woman. And I told them guys, I got used to this in my villages in the Druze community, we are still a conservative community. Okay, but in DC in the 21st century, I am the only woman? Hey, wake up. Then I understood that okay, we did so much, we achieved so much in the last decades, last century, but we are not there yet. You know, like reminding ourselves in some countries we have no ability to vote, we have no ability to even, no right to be elected. Okay, we did, we promoted, we leverage our skills we went, we learned, we achieved. But even now today, we are not there. We don't have yet absolute gender equality. 

Look at the numbers. In our current government, there are zero CEOs of ministries, five of 33 ministers are women. 25% of MK members of parliament today are women. We are talking about 30 from 120. So the up-bottom policy is also, you know, reflecting the atmosphere. There are huge ramifications of who we are, who is working with me, who are my colleagues. So we are trying to lead. We are the head, the CEO, the founder, but we need to work much more hard to achieve. And this is our role. 

So the most important advice, in my opinion, that I can share here is lead. Don't wait for opportunity, take the opportunity, and I am really trying to target here, women, especially young women, excuse me, men, you have your exclusive club, you take care of each other. I believe that behind every woman, there is no man. There is a circle of women to support her, to give her the chances, to help her, to leverage her skills, to teach her. And I believe that it is our role as leaders at first, to empower women to be there for each other and to take the number much higher. 

Because so many researchers found that and it's proven that our ability to read reality is much better than men. We see the macro perspective, the empathy, the way of dealing things, the multitask. And all those things affect the atmosphere in our companies, in our organizations, in politics, in the Knesset. So do it, engage and lead and don't wait for the opportunity. Take the opportunity and lead.

Reva Gorelick:

Thank you. I want to just follow up on one point that you brought up, Ayelet, I'm gonna go off script a little bit and just ask, you brought up a question about representation in government. And we're not there in most parts of the world, we're not nearly anywhere where we where we need to be and where we should be at this point. When we're looking at government representation and gender parity in government, what should we be striving for? And how do you see that gender parity and representation as a barometer for social change and policy change?

Ayelet Nahmias-Verbin:

I think it is a little bit frustrating to admit the truth. We felt that we were going forward, and then we were kind of pulled back. And it's really up to us. I've got to say something, and I've got to be very frank about it. Politics is a shitty business. I worked with Yitzchak Rabin when I was 20 years old. And at 25, I had so much political power, I couldn't believe it. And I still didn't run for the Knesset, because of the men around me, you know, for them. I was 25 years old. Why should I run for the Knesset? Nowadays, it's much more reasonable to do so, to make such a crazy decision. 

But then I decided to go to the Knesset only after I already had three kids, a full career, a lawyer and board member and owner of a company, everything, that's when I decided, okay, now I'm gonna bring everything into the home, you know, and run to the Knesset. And it's a very, very difficult and non rewarding life. Even today, I tell people, I'm a politician, because I don't want people to think that politics is such a bad thing, you know, it's so important to understand, Gadeer, forgive me, she's also a politician, you know, this is not a bad thing. 

You know, this is, you know, the kind of my IP, you know, that's what I bring to the, to the table, my ability to speak to people and my ability to solve problems to, to do a lot of things, you know, that probably people with, with different skills, other people will be scientists and doctors, I really, really wanted to be an MD, but that's for another session. But what we need to do is make sure that from the very, very start at kindergarten, I'm not educating my daughter, I'm educating her brothers. Her brothers need to know that she can be Prime Minister, if she would like. That she could do anything that she could want. That's the idea. Because we used to say, once upon a time for socialization, okay, so let's take care of the girls. Nuh-uh. We need to take care of all of them, of both genders, because this is what we need to do. 

Because till today, and especially in a very, very complex society, like Israel, where we have both very, very strong liberalism, alongside in spite of you know, in spite of the situation in the Knesset, still very, very strong Bible values that, you know, the values that we share, and conservatism, that is not only Jewish, okay. I mean, there's no, no doubt there is, you know, is there a strong draft of conservatism from the Jewish part, but also we know well from the non Jewish parts. So the idea is, you know, people like Gadeer, I never heard you speak about what your father told you, that you should change reality. But that's exactly it. It's up to us to shape reality and shaping reality, from Facebook, from Meta, that Sheryl Sandberg used to say, speak at the table. You know, when you go through board minutes, you see that the women don't speak as much as the men. It's not only Okay, so we got to the table, but do we speak there? 

And I noticed once you know that Shabbat dinners, my daughter doesn't speak as much as her brothers. She's kind of reluctant. Maybe she'll make a mistake. Maybe she'll make it out and I'll correct her. God forbid I'm a terrible mom in these things. You know, I never have patience. So I say to the boys, I say, now you sush. And I give her the front seat. And this is so important to do. And up until, you know, we'll realize that and act on it, we will unfortunately, especially in such a divided society, like our own, we’ll stay in the same situation. 

As long as people for instance, in primary parties, people still vote for one woman, you know this like, that's like the one token woman that we vote for. Now, on the other side, on the left wing, it's not as much as that. But again, we don't see as many women. I think in Yesh Atid actually, Yair [Lapid] made a huge effort. Also, Benny [Gantz] made a huge effort to bring more women on board. But these are different. You know, these are different kinds of parties. By the way, if you ask me, what's better for women? Nowadays, primaries or non primaries, you'd be surprised to hear: non primaries. Non primaries. Primaries are not necessarily the best way to bring women to the front seat.

Reva Gorelick:

Thank you for sharing that. And bringing that into the conversation of you, I want to come back to you. Aviva, you hold the role of Director of Innovation Diplomacy. It's not a phrase that I had heard much before we started having these conversations. And I'd love for other people to hear about it some more. From your experience in Israel's tech and startup world. Can you talk to us about the cascading effects of empowering women to be agents for change in their respective fields?

Aviva Steinberger:

Yeah, so innovation diplomacy is a made up term. And you know, if you think about science, diplomacy, or economic diplomacy, that's generally diplomacy that's meant to further goals around science and economics. And in this case, you're looking at focusing on innovation to further diplomacy. The idea is leveraging what's coming out of Israel in the tech sector, leveraging this brand that we have as the startup nation, to build ties. So with the signing of the Abraham Accords, really created the opportunity for normalization, as we know, and countries in the region are investing a lot of money, billions of dollars, to create their own innovation ecosystems. 

And they're looking at their neighbor, Israel, and Israel as a now welcome citizen of the region that everybody can play with. And saying, How can we learn from the Israel journey, Israel's journey over the last 30 years going from a resource economy where our main export was oranges, to a knowledge based economy where our main export is anyone know? Tech. Yep. 

So digital, we call it digital oranges, right? The drones flying over the citrus fields and around the world, measuring the health of the fruit in the trees, etc. So really this journey and what went into building an ecosystem? What did the government do 30 years ago that enabled and incentivized foreign investment, where's the academia, where is tech transfer happening both at the university level, also in hospital levels, where what is the role of incubators and accelerators and investors. So looking at the whole ecosystem, sharing that knowledge and using that, as what I call a frictionless tool to engage with our neighbors in the region, because if you're talking about some of our shared challenges, I mentioned before, water security, and energy security and the impacts of extreme weather. Those issues don't know geographic boundaries. 

And so we are all dealing, especially in the region, one of the most vulnerable to climate change, for example. By the way, in America, climate change is very politicized. In the region, it is not at all because if you don't pay attention to the impacts of climate change in the region, your people aren't going to have clean water, they're not going to have food, they're not going to have energy, electricity. And so these are not political issues. These are what I call frictionless issues, that we can sit around the table and say, we must collaborate in order to find solutions. 

So innovation diplomacy is really about focusing on the role that innovation plays to create these relationships. As it relates to women. I think women play, can play and do play a unique role into driving this forward. First of all, you know, we spoke about it a little bit and Gadeer, you mentioned this idea of women being social change agents. There's something I mean, I don't think this is unique and exclusive to women, but it's definitely emphasized in women and when we walk into a room, as professionals, we are wearing a lot of hats. 

You might not see them, but I think everybody on this stage is wearing a number of hats. Some of us are politicians, we're leaders in our communities, in our societies, in our companies, on boards. But we're also daughters and sisters potentially and mothers, some of us and friends, and maybe the head of a kindergarten parent group that has to worry about making sure everybody has the cake for the end of the year party. I mean, these are all things happening at once in our heads. And that’s just my own. I'm sorry. I don't mean to project.

Gadeer Kamal-Mreeh:  

The Sarah Jessica Parker cloud.

Aviva Steinberger:

Yeah, exactly. And I think the invitation that we're putting out to women and the engagements that we have is, bring all of those hats with you into a room. I mean, sometimes they're not necessarily relevant but the engagement at the personal level, at the business level, at the values level, sharing ideas for the vision of what the future, the region could look like. That's really where the connection I mean, I witnessed and sorry, I'm going to share I witnessed and embrace between these two friends who hadn't seen each other in a long time. And I overheard Gadeer say this is the hug of two strong women. That's something unique to women. 

And, I think if we create the space where that happens, those ties, then feed into trusting networks, where I know that my friend, who I just met last month and spent two and a half days with, who is running a business in Nigeria, and is looking for funding. And I'm connecting with a funder in the UAE who's looking for women-led ag-tech businesses, I'm suddenly making that connection and putting them in touch. And you create these networks of trust that create opportunity. And so it's an opportunity that leads to more women sitting around the table making decisions on investments, more women sitting around the table making decisions around what kind of solutions to pursue, and where these cross regional, cross border synergies could happen. 

And that I believe in my heart of hearts, is where we're charting a path to a new future for the region. I don't think it's naive to say, we are on the cusp of a new dynamic in the Middle East. Because of these opportunities, and because of these opportunities to engage. I will also say just in terms of numbers-wise. Globally, women representation we spoke about in politics, but women representation, as CEOs and founders of companies, is an abysmal 8% cap, no matter where you go, you're gonna hit that 8-9% number. When I first heard this, I immediately started checking our stats in Israel, because I was like, that's, that can't be in Israel. Israel is just hovering around 10. And we are a global leader. 

This is an improvement. And you're talking about after seeing efforts. And if you look at the numbers coming out of the universities, women are very well represented today at the academic level and computer sciences. You're talking about graduates that are hovering around 50%, if not more at some university. So you think, okay, you know, we're charting a path for a better future. But that doesn't translate. The reality doesn't translate into seeing more women, founding companies, leading companies. And that is a gap that needs to be addressed. And the jury's still out on what's the silver bullet to get there. But I think it is in creating opportunities. 

And Ayelet also spoke about this, this mentoring, I think, in particular in the region. I mean, from the United States, I'm American, living in Israel, for the last 25 years, I have not had a challenge finding women to model, women to reach out to and say, you know, I can track this path. And this is where I can see myself being as a future leader. But women in the region don't necessarily have that network, and creating these networks where you can access a vision for what future female leadership looks like and see it and get there and not be the only woman in the room, that has tremendous power. And that's really what we're driving to see in the business and tech community.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

If you missed last week’s episode, be sure to tune in for our live recording from Tel Aviv with one of Israel’s top podcasts, Israel Story. Host Mishy Harman and I joined the grandson of Moshe Kol, one of the 37 signers of Israel’s Declaration of Independence as part of Israel Story’s latest series, “Signed, Sealed, Delivered?” Don’t miss it.

Today, American Jews have reached unparalleled levels of success in areas such as business, academia, and culture. But with rising antisemitism, Jewish demographic changes, and shifting norms, some are pessimistic about the future for American Jewry. 

Tune into AJC’s signature AJC Global Forum 2022 session: The Great Debate: Is the Golden Age of American Jewry Over? The debate features guests Bret Stephens, Op-Ed Columnist, The New York Times, Editor-in-Chief, Sapir; and Pamela Nadell, Patrick Clendenen Chair in Women’s and Gender History; Director, Jewish Studies Program, American University, and is moderated by Laura Shaw Frank, AJC Director, William Petschek Contemporary Jewish Life. 

We also hear from AJC Global Forum 2022 participants about meeting other young Jews and learning from featured panelists, while also reflecting on their connections to Judaism and Israel.

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Episode Lineup:

(0:40) Manya on the Street

(3:37) Pamela Nadell and Bret Stephens

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Show Notes:

Watch the full session: The Great Debate: Is the Golden Age of American Jewry Over?

To view additional videos and highlights from AJC Global Forum 2022, go to AJC.org/GlobalForumNews

Listen to our latest episode: What is the BDS Mapping Project and Why Should All Jews Be Concerned?

Don’t forget to subscribe to People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

On April 27, 2019, in the middle of Passover, a white supremacist burst through the doors of a Chabad synagogue in Poway, California and opened fire, killing congregant Lori Gilbert-Kaye and injuring three others. As we approach the second anniversary of the shooting, we speak to Mayor Steve Vaus, a Grammy-winning country music singer, who was serving his first term as Poway’s mayor at the time. 

Then we’re joined by AJC Paris Director Anne-Sophie Sebban-Bécache to talk about the case of Sarah Halimi, a 65-year old French woman who was murdered in 2017 because she was Jewish. France's highest court has ruled that her killer will not stand trial due to his “delirious state” from smoking marijuana.

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Episode Lineup: 

(00:40) Mayor Steve Vaus

(15:32) Anne-Sophie Sebban-Bécache

(19:02) Manya Brachear Pashman

(22:15) Seffi Kogen

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Show Notes:

Episode Transcript

One Candle by Steve Vaus

Israeli Prime Minister Yair Lapid has voiced sharp criticism of reports claiming that the final text of a restored Iranian nuclear deal will soon be accepted by Tehran and Washington, reigniting debate about key components of the nuclear deal - sanctions against Iran’s energy exports, IAEA monitoring, unfreezing blocked Iranian assets, among others - and whether the United States should even be negotiating with Iran in the first place. Fresh off a recent escalation with the Iranian-backed Palestinian Islamic Jihad terror group, Israel has been vocal with the Biden administration about these concerns as well as Iran’s continued malign behavior.

Behnam Ben Taleblu,, a senior fellow at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies (FDD), joins AJC Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer Jason Isaacson to break down the specifics of the emerging deal and explain why the nuclear threat is only one element of the broader danger posed by Iran. 

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Episode Lineup:

(0:40) Jason Isaacson and Behnam Ben Taleblu

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Show Notes:

For more Iran news and analysis, visit AJC.org/Iran

Listen to our latest podcast episode: BDS on Campus: What Should Jewish Students Expect? 

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

Ambassador Martin Indyk gives listeners a behind-the-scenes look at one of the most consequential figures in modern Middle East diplomacy: former United States Secretary of State and National Security Advisor Henry Kissinger. In this riveting conversation with guest co-host Jason Isaacson, AJC’s chief policy and political affairs officer, Indyk discusses his just-released book about Kissinger, Master of the Game: Henry Kissinger and the Art of Middle East Diplomacy, highlighting the veteran diplomat’s lessons for Arab-Israeli stability and the antisemitism that he faced in his career. Indyk himself is no stranger to Middle East diplomacy, having served twice as the U.S. Ambassador to Israel and the Assistant Secretary of State for Near East Affairs during the Clinton Administration, and as America’s special Middle East envoy for renewed peace talks between Israel and the Palestinian Authority during the Obama administration.

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Episode Lineup:

(0:40) Martin Indyk

(18:48) Manya Brachear Pashman and Jason Isaacson

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Show Notes:

Master of the Game: Henry Kissinger and the Art of Middle East Diplomacy by Martin Indyk

It is no secret that antisemitism is on the rise in the United States. American Jewish Committee’s (AJC) 2021 State of Antisemitism in America report revealed that 90% of Jewish respondents believe antisemitism is a problem. Until now, there has not been a single resource for American society to tackle the world’s oldest hatred. In a just-released mobilization tool, AJC’s Call to Action Against Antisemitism in America highlights a path forward for all sectors of society, including government, corporations, the media, college campuses, and more. Listen as Holly Huffnagle, AJC’s U.S. Director for Combating Antisemitism, breaks down this resource and explains why addressing antisemitism requires a bold, targeted, and cohesive strategy to understand, respond to, and prevent it.

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Episode Lineup:

(0:40) Holly Huffnagle

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Show Notes:

Learn more about AJC’s Call to Action Against Antisemitism: ajc.org/call-to-action

Check out season 1 of The Forgotten Exodus: ajc.org/forgottenexodus

Listen to our latest podcast episode: What a Restored Deal with Iran Could Mean for Israel and the Entire Middle East

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

Yoni Diller, a 28-year-old Israeli filmmaker, arrived at the Supernova Music Festival just hours before Hamas terrorists launched their unprecedented attack on Israel that killed 1200 people, including 401 at the music festival alone. Yoni escaped the festival on foot, walking for hours through southern Israel’s desert to safety. 

Having survived this harrowing experience, Yoni is now traveling the world to share his story with political leaders, college students, and others, providing firsthand testimony of the horrors he and his fellow festival attendees witnessed on that fateful morning of October 7th.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Yoni Diller

Show Notes:

Listen – People of the Pod on the Israel-Hamas War:

• Tal Shimony Survived the Hamas Attack on the Nova Music Festival: Hear Her Story of Courage, Resilience, and Remembrance

• How to Mark International Holocaust Remembrance Day in a Post-October 7th World

• A Spider Web of Terror: How Iran’s Axis of Houthis, Hezbollah, and Hamas Threaten Israel and America

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Transcript of Interview with Yoni Diller:

Manya Brachear Pashman:

During the Grammys this past Sunday, Recording Academy CEO Harvey Mason Jr. remembered the 401 people murdered and 40 kidnapped by Hamas terrorists during the October 7 attack on the Nova Music Festival. 

Yoni Diller is a 28-year-old filmmaker from Ra’anana, a town outside Tel Aviv. Yoni and his friend Nadav arrived at the Supernova Music Festival just a few hours before rockets began flying overhead. At daybreak, he had expected to send up a drone camera to capture the scene of unadulterated song and dance in the desert. But he never got the chance to get his camera ready. Yoni is with us now to describe that harrowing day that started at dawn. Yoni, welcome to People of the Pod.  

Yoni Diller:

Thank you for having me. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Could you please walk us through what you saw that morning? 

Yoni Diller:  

So, when the sirens went on at 6:30, we saw hundreds of missiles heading our way. So we rushed back to our campsite. We packed up our stuff, we tried to leave, the parking lot was chaotic. And I suggested going a different way. This decision to head south towards Re’im, which is another village. I didn't think it would change or it will change everything, but it did. On the road, people originally told us to turn around, to do a u-turn. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

You told me earlier that was when a car riddled with bullet holes approached you and you found yourself helping a wounded women. That was 25 year old Shani Gabay whose remains were identified seven weeks later. At that time, when you were helping her, you heard gunfire in the distance and you tried to take cover in a nearby valley. 

Yoni Diller:  

Yes. I saw terrorists from a distance and continued to hide. A short moment later, mass shooting started in the Be’eri area, north of us.  I checked my phone to assess our surroundings and our current location. At the same time, my friend's sister called him to check on him to check everything's okay. He promised everything's gonna be alright. And about that time about a dozen others had joined us and we start walking. But the best thing I could do at that moment is to scream for everyone to get down because bullets are flying up on top of our head. 

So when the gunshots stop for a second, we decided to head towards Patish, it was more than 24 kilometers away. My intuition told me that this will be safer there. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Did you just say 24 kilometers away? How did you make it through an almost 15-mile walk?

You're walking in fields, the open fields in the desert, without food or water for over four and a half hours. It's really really tough. The fear and uncertainty made it even harder. At some point, Nadav found a single grapefruit that gave us enough energy to finish the long walk to Patish. 

Throughout this journey we continued to hear automatic gunfire. Finally after 4 ½ hours we arrived at Patish. Emotions were mixed because we began to learn the enormity of what happened. Friends were missing and there were rumors of many people hurt and worse from the festival.

Later on around 2 in the afternoon, a bus came to take us away, bringing us to Be’er Sheva and then to Tel Aviv. Then I arrived to Ra'anana finally. Safe and sound in one piece. I hugged my family and I understood just how lucky I had been. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So can you kind of explain to our audience what is so wonderful about this festival, this trance culture and this music, this experience?

Yoni Diller:  

So trance, psy-trance, electronic music, personally for me it's not a genre. It’s like you said, it's a culture, it’s the people in it. It's the free spirit people, liberal people, just all about spreading love. It doesn't have to be in a hippie way, just more in a way that everything is very simple, you know. Simply just be a good person, giving, ego’s not involved, very laid back people. And that's the whole idea behind all these festivals and that's what's for me. It's about the people, it's about the music, it’s about the art, everything together. 

I joined a group of friends, friends of friends, we were like total more than 20 people and two of them lost their lives there and two others that I know from another group that went with me to high school also. 

One got killed and actually the one the other one got kidnapped. These festivals,  from event to event, you get to know people from everywhere. It's a small world.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Your companion who was kidnapped, has he been released, any word on where they are now?

Yoni Diller:  

No, one of them is still there. Hopefully he's still alive. I’m not even sure what's less worse, being kidnapped, or hostage, or being killed. We don't really know what they're going through over there. The best we can do is just wish for them to be released, no matter what the circumstances are.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Yes, my colleagues here at AJC are working to bring about the safe return of all the hostages. Listeners can go to AJC.org/BringThemHome to learn more about those efforts. 

Yoni, do you feel like people outside Israel fully grasp the gravity of what happened to people there, or really how truly innocent the festival goers were?

Yoni Diller:  

Unfortunately, you know, this generation wants to get fast news and simple news comfortably, and a lot of them consume content from, you know, platforms like Tiktok, or Instagram. And unfortunately, there's a lot of fake news out there, a lot of false accusations. And, you know, people sometimes deny that October 7 happened. And that's really unfortunate. I'll give you an example. 

I flew to the US after the event, I was part of this special delegation to do advocacy and telling the story to politicians in DC, in New York. And also, independently later after this delegation, I stayed another week in the States, and I took the train to these campuses. And I spoke and told my story. You know, campuses like NYU, Columbia, I went to Harvard, MIT, Yale, and Princeton. 

Six campuses in three days. It wasn't easy. I was really exhausted. But the fact that I had that meaning that, you know, I'm there to tell the story. 

Not for me, not telling the story for me. I’m telling that story for people to actually know what really happened, you know, the truth. I'm saying this for people who weren't lucky to tell them to tell the story themselves, or for the families. 

So what I saw, when I told the story, is a lot of people were actually in shock, like, wow, I didn't know if this would really happen. Like, how can you not know, we're in 2023. Information hasn't been easier to be delivered from place to place up until this moment, and how do you not know exactly what happened? There's videos everywhere. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You mentioned that students were actually shocked that when they heard your testimony, and what happened. What other kinds of reactions are you getting, both reassuring reactions and negative reactions?

Yoni Diller:  

I would say that the positive reactions I had a lot, a lot of good reactions. I mean, most of the people I spoke to or through this Hillel organization and the campuses. And, you know, people come up to me after the event and they feel very sorry, and they sort of it was really nice, but I would say that the only time that I dealt with some, somebody that was maybe a negative was at Princeton, there was this guy, some 18 year old kid. Apparently he's not one of the Israeli supporters I would say, is an understatement. And he had a weird comment. 

It took him actually 10 minutes to ask me a question, at the end of the lecture, I asked if anyone has any questions, and he asked me something. He was very embarrassed to ask me this. But he said something about should we feel bad for the Palestinians, they've been oppressed for many years, October 7th was legitimate, it should have happened, something in that kind of way. 

So instead of attacking him and try to humiliate him, or trying to make him look really bad, make him look silly, I told him, Look, I can talk to you about it. No problem. I'm not here to talk about politics or give you history lessons. I'm just here to tell my story, this is what happen. Again, I can get into it, but I wasn't really interested,I wasn't sure it was really appropriate to just get into that, because he just wanted to find some action. 

In terms of antisemitism or just being against Israel, I see it's a very broad trend, nowadays. I had this event with Douglas Murray the other day. And he said, this generation is Gen Z, you know, everyone wants to be an activist, everyone wants to be an influencer in some way. And people calling Israel, telling them they're calling colonialist or doing genocide, all that. It's very easy to use these buzzwords, okay, but most of the people don't even know what they mean.

Most of the people when they shout from the river to the sea, don't even know which sea or which river they're talking about. But a lot of these people feel a sense of meaning, oh, we're part of something, although they don't know 100%, where they're part of part of. 

So my mission, or one of my main meanings, is to educate people and telling them in a very simple way, what really happened because I'm the proof that October 7, I'm evidence to all this all this thing happened. So no one can actually tell me that this didn't happen.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Yoni I am curious, how you are healing, how you are taking care of yourself, and whether these opportunities to speak about what happened are therapeutic, and what music is playing in your healing process?

Yoni Diller:  

Well, as I tell the story more, at some point I feel it comes out more easy and less challenging. As I tell it more, I feel I become stronger. You know, because you just can't keep this stuff in your stomach, you gotta share this stuff, and be very careful how you share it. 

I've read this book Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl,  I'm sure you've heard about it. And I read this book while I was doing this whole advocacy work, and, you know, doing this journey in the states, in Europe, and it gave me a lot of strength. And, and it was part of my healing process, you know, to have this meaning. 

But the main point wasn't really, you know, spreading the story everywhere. I mean, it was important, but how do I bridge that story to something more positive? So that was part of my healing process. In addition, I have friends and family that are very supportive. And I'm very lucky to have them. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Do you encounter mostly Jewish audiences with whom you speak? Or do you encounter non-Jewish audiences and recipients?

Yoni Diller:  

It's mixed. It's mixed. Mostly mixed. A lot of them are Jews, though, because I was hosted by Hillel. So a lot of them were Jews. Also for security reasons. 

At that time, I decided to go to Harvard and MIT when there were all the riots. I went there by myself to speak and they had to make sure everything's secure and they had police on the outside, the inside, it really kept everything very safe. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And did you get any surprising reactions from non-Jewish audience members?

Yoni Diller:  

Just from that incident in Princeton, but if the event was more like for everyone, I'm sure I would get responses from so many other people. And it would be a disaster, it would just be a mess because it would be me probably arguing with a couple of kids screaming stuff like free Palestine and stuff, things that have no connection to what I came for. And, you know, just misses the whole purpose. So we try to do something more organized, more the Jewish crowd, because let me tell you this, okay. 

A lot of Jews, Israelis that live in the States, whoever it is, the campuses, they know what happened, but most of them don't know from a survivor or someone who's really there. In addition, a lot of them don't have the self confidence to combat this antisemitism and hate in their surroundings, they feel afraid to stand up. 

I mean, if I survived it, I’m just a simple Ashkenazi guy from Ra’anana. And, you know, I survived it. You know, I wouldn't consider myself a big hero. I mean, I was very lucky. And again, you know, I've been through hell. But the last thing I should do is be silent and just stay home. I got to speak up. Hey, guys, look this is what happened, you know, get your head up. People are in a much worse situation, you have no reason to be afraid. We went through the Holocaust, we’ve been through, you know, 3000 years of hell. And we've always survived. So we're resilient. And that's kind of the message that I came to convey. 

You know, that's one of the reasons I'm there to speak. Again, you cannot fight antisemitism with the other side's kind of method, let's say, they would scream stuff, and be violent. You can't play that game. Let them yell and play that game or spread their lies. 

What you should do is, you know, you gotta really pick your crowd, like I said, You got to pick your people. You got to be more united, you got to speak, you got to spread facts. That's what you should do, every Jew in the world. Because we're stronger than ever. Nothing can break us. History has shown it.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Yoni, do you think that you will return to the supernova festival or any other music festival? Do you think you'll dance again?

Yoni Diller:  

I’ll even dance more. You know, this is what they want, disregarding what happened and everything. I guess that these terrorist organizations, not only they want to, like physically hurt you, they will also want to mentally break you, okay? And they want you to fear them. So the last thing you should do is be afraid of that. So you got to do the opposite. They probably would want me not to dance anymore, not to go to these festivals or just not enjoy my life. I'll do the opposite. I will go and I'll dance even more often. Or I'll just you know, create more joy. And that's one of the ways to really combat this battle. 

So to your question. Yes. I will not stop, maybe it'll take me some time. I'm not sure if I'm so ready. But slowly, you know, you got to really listen to yourself first. That’s the most important.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Yoni, thank you so much for sharing your story and I hope to see you dancing again very soon.  

Yoni Diller:  

Hey, thank you so much for having me. Hopefully, people can hear this and they can spread the word.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

If you missed last week’s episode, be sure to tune in for my conversation with another Supernova survivor Tal Shimony as she discusses the genesis of the exhibit 'Nova 6.29,' where the community aims to tell their story and honor those killed and taken hostage. Tal guides us through the horrors she witnessed during the deadliest attack on a music event in history.

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Episode Lineup:

(0:40) Joel Schwitzer, Mohamed Elibiary, and Rabbi Andrew Paley

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Show Notes:

Listen to our most recent episode: The Fight for Religious Equality at the Western Wall Just Got Tougher

Don’t forget to subscribe to People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

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Episode Lineup:

(0:40) David Harris

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Show Notes:

Take action. 

• Join AJC in calling for the White House to convene a taskforce that will develop a national action plan to fight anti-Jewish hate. 
• Urge the Senate to confirm Deborah Lipstadt as the Special Envoy to Monitor and Combat Antisemitism. 

Listen to our most recent episode: Inside the Colleyville, Texas Synagogue Hostage Crisis: Hear from 3 Local Jewish and Muslim Leaders on What It Was Like on the Ground

Don’t forget to subscribe to People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

Keep an eye out for our next episode marking International Holocaust Remembrance, in which we learn about the lost Jewish community of Monastir from Ladino singer and songwriter Sarah Aroeste. 

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

Israeli Prime Minister Naftali Bennett made history this past week when he became the first Israeli premier to be officially welcomed to the United Arab Emirates. Retired U.S. Ambassador Marc Sievers, inaugural Director of AJC Abu Dhabi: The Sidney Lerner Center for Arab-Jewish Understanding, joins us to discuss the importance of this visit and what it holds for the future of the region.

Then, AJC Chief Field Operations Officer Melanie Maron Pell joins us from her home state of Kentucky to share what’s happening on the ground in the aftermath of deadly tornadoes that slammed six states, what Israel has done to bring aid, and how listeners can help those impacted. 

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Episode Lineup:

(1:30) Ambassador Marc Sievers 

(19:42) Manya Brachear Pashman and Melanie Maron Pell

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Show Notes:

Join us as we fight anti-Jewish hate and take on those who threaten Israel. Your gift to AJC before December 31 will be matched, dollar-for-dollar. To support our work, visit AJC.org/donate. Or, text AJC DONATE to 52886. 

Kentucky Tornado Relief Funds:

1.Team Western Kentucky Tornado Relief Fund: https://secure.kentucky.gov/formservices/Finance/WKYRelief

2. Jewish Federation of Louisville Kentucky Tornado Relief Fund: https://jewishlouisville.abilafundraisingonline.com/ky-tornado-relief

Stay tuned for next week’s episode featuring Alex Edelman, on his new off-Broadway comedy show, “Just For Us”. To purchase tickets, visit https://www.justforusshow.com/ and use the discount code ALEX. 

Photo credit: Israeli Government Press Office (GPO) 

Listen to the premiere episode of a new limited narrative series from American Jewish Committee (AJC): The Forgotten Exodus. Each Monday, for the next six weeks, AJC will release a new episode of The Forgotten Exodus, the first-ever narrative podcast series to focus exclusively on Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews. This week’s episode focuses on Jews from Iraq. If you like what you hear, use the link below to subscribe before the next episode drops on August 8.

Who are the Jews of Iraq? Why did they leave? And why do so many Iraqi Jews, even those born elsewhere, still consider Iraq their home? 

Join us to uncover the answers to these questions through the inspiring story of Mizrahi Jewish cartoonist Carol Isaacs’ family. Feeling alienated growing up as the only Jew in school from an Arab-majority country, Carol turned her longing for Iraq and the life her family left behind into a gripping graphic memoir, The Wolf of Baghdad. 

Meanwhile, Zvi Ben-Dor Benite, professor of History and Middle Eastern and Islamic Studies at New York University, delves into the fascinating, yet the little-known history of Iraqi Jewry, from its roots in the region 2,600 years ago, to the antisemitic riots that led them to seek refuge in Israel, England, and the U.S.

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Show Notes:

Sign up to receive podcast updates here.

Learn more about The Forgotten Exodus here. 

Song credits:

• Thanks to Carol Isaacs and her band 3yin for permission to use The Wolf of Bagdad soundtrack. Portions of the following tracks can be heard throughout the episode: 
• • 01 Dhikrayyat (al Qasabji) 
  • 02 Muqaddima Hijaz (trad) 
  • 03 Che Mali Wali (pt 1) (trad)
  • 05 Fog el Nakhal (trad) 
  • 11 Balini-b Balwa (trad) 
  • 12 Al Effendi (al Kuwaiti) 
  • 14 Dililol (trad) 
  • 15 Che Mail Wali (pt 2) (trad) 
• Pond5: “Desert Caravans”: Publisher: Pond5 Publishing Beta (BMI), Composer: Tiemur Zarobov (BMI), IPI#1098108837; “Sentimental Oud Middle Eastern”: Publisher: Pond5 Publishing Beta (BMI), Composer: Sotirios Bakas (BMI), IPI#797324989.; “Adventures in the East”: Publisher: Pond5 Publishing Beta (BMI) Composer: Petar Milinkovic (BMI), IPI#00738313833.
•  

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Episode Transcript:

CAROL ISAACS: A lot of businesses were trashed, houses were burnt. It was an awful time. And that was a kind of time when the Jews of Iraq had started to think, ‘Well, maybe this isn't our homeland after all.’

MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: Welcome to the premiere of the first ever podcast series devoted exclusively to an overlooked episode in modern history: the 800,000 Jews who left or were driven from their homes in Arab nations and Iran in the mid-20th century. Some fled antisemitism, mistreatment, and pogroms that sparked a refugee crisis like no other, as persecuted Jewish communities poured from numerous directions.  Others sought opportunities for their families or followed the calling to help create a Jewish state. In Israel, America, Italy, wherever they landed, these Jews forged new lives for themselves and future generations. This series explores that pivotal moment in Jewish history and the rich Jewish heritage of Iran and Arab nations as some begin to build relations with Israel.

Each week, we will share the history of one Jewish family with roots in the Arab world. Each account is personal and different. Some include painful memories or elegies for what could’ve been. Others pay homage to the conviction of their ancestors to seek a life where they were wanted. To ground each episode, we rely on a scholar to untangle the complexities. Some of these stories have never been told because they wished to leave the past in the past. For those of you who, like me, before this project began, never read this chapter in Jewish history, we hope you find this series enlightening. And for those who felt ignored for so many decades, we hope these stories honor your families’ legacies. Join us as we explore stories of courage, perseverance, and resilience. 

I’m your host, Manya Brachear Pashman, and this is The Forgotten Exodus.

Today’s episode: Leaving Iraq.

CAROL: All my life, I've lived in two worlds – one inside the family home, which is a very Jewish world, obviously, but also tinged with Iraqi customs like Iraqi food, a language we spoke—Judeo Arabic. So, I've always known that I’m not just British. I've lived in these two worlds, the one at home, and then the one at school. And then later on at work, which was very English. I went to a terribly English school, for example, there were about a thousand girls. Of those thousand girls, 30 were Jewish, and I was the only Mizrahi, the only non-European Jew. So, there's always been that knowing that I’m not quite fitting into boxes. Do you know what I mean? But I never quite knew which box I fit into.

MANYA: Carol Isaacs makes her living illustrating the zeitgeists of our time, poking fun at the irony all around us, reminding us of our common quirks. And she fits it all into a tiny box. You might not know Carol by her given name, but you’ve probably seen her pen name, scrawled in the corner of her cartoons published by The New Yorker and Spectator magazines: TS McCoy, or The Surreal McCoy. 

Carol is homesick for a home she never knew. Born and raised Jewish in London, she grew up hearing stories of her parents’ life in Baghdad. How her family members learned to swim in the Tigris River using the bark of palm trees as life preservers, how they shopped in the city sooks for dates to bake b’ab’e b’tamer. 

Millions of Jews have called Iraq home for more than 2,600 years, including many of their children and grandchildren who have never been there, but long to go. Like Carol, they were raised with indelible stories of daily life in Mosul, Basra, Baghdad – Jewish life that ceased to exist because it ceased to be safe.

CAROL: My mother remembered sitting with her mother and her grandmother and all the family in the cellar, going through every single grain of rice for chometz. Now, if you imagine that there were eight days of Passover, I don't know 10, 12 people in the household, plus guests, they ate rice at least twice a day. You can imagine how much rice you'd have to go through. So little things like that, you know, that would give you a window into another world completely, that they remembered with so much fondness. 

And it's been like that all my life. I've had this nostalgia for this, this place that my parents used to . . . now and again they’d talk about it, this place that I've never visited and I've never known. But it would be wonderful to go and just smell the same air that my ancestors smelled, you know, walk around the same streets in the Jewish Quarter. The houses are still there, the old Jewish Quarter. They're a bit run down. Well, very run down.

MANYA: Carol turned her longing for Iraq and the life her family left behind into a graphic memoir and animated film called The Wolf of Baghdad. Think Art Spiegelman’s Maus, the graphic novel about the Holocaust, but for Jews in Iraq who on the holiday of Shavuot in 1941 suffered through a brutal pogrom known as the Farhud, followed by decades of persecution, and ultimately, expulsion.

Her research for the book involved conversations with family members who had never spoken about the violence and hatred they witnessed. They had left it in the past and now looked toward the future. There’s no dialogue in the book either. The story arc simply follows the memories.

CAROL: They wanted to look forward. So, it was really gratifying that they did tell me these things. ‘Cause when my parents came, for example, they came to the UK, it was very much ‘Look forward. We are British now.’ My father was the quintessential city gent. He'd go to the office every day in the city of London with his pinstriped suit, and a rose plucked from the front garden, you know, a copy of The Guardian newspaper under his arm. He was British. We listened to classical music. We didn't listen to the music of my heritage. It was all Western music in the house.

MANYA: But her father’s Muslim and Christian business associates in Iraq visited regularly, as long as they could safely travel.   

CAROL: On a Sunday, every month, our house would turn into little Baghdad. They would come and my mother would feed them these delicacies that she spent all week making and they’d sit and they’d talk.

MANYA: As Carol said, she had heard only fond memories throughout her childhood because for millennia, Jews in Iraq lived in harmony with their Muslim and Christian neighbors. 

CAROL: Jews have always lived in Mesopotamia, lived generally quite well. There was always the dimmi status, which is a status given to minorities. For example, they had to pay a certain tax, had to wear certain clothing. Sometimes, they weren't allowed to build houses higher than their neighbor, because they weren't allowed to be above their neighbor. They couldn't ride a horse, for example, Jews. I mean, small little rules, that you were never quite accorded full status. But then when the Brits arrived in 1917, things became a bit easier.

MANYA: But 20-some years later, life for Jews took a turn for the worse. That sudden and dramatic turning point in 1941 was called The Farhud.

ZVI BEN-DOR BENITE: Jews have been living in Iraq for thousands of years. If we start with the Farhud, we are starting in the middle of the story, in fact, in the middle of the end.”

MANYA: That’s Zvi Ben-Dor Benite, a professor of history and Middle Eastern and Islamic Studies at New York University. The son of Iraqi Jewish parents who migrated to Israel in the early 1950s, he carries in his imagination maps of old Jewish neighborhoods in Mosul and Baghdad, etched by his parents’ stories of life in the old country. He shares Carol’s longing to walk those same streets one day. 

ZVI: Iraqis, even those who were born in Israel, still self-identify as Iraqis and still consider that home to a certain extent – an imaginary home, but home. And you can say the same thing, and even more so, for people who were born there and lived there at the time. So here’s the thing: if I go there, I would be considering myself a returnee. But it would be my first time.

MANYA: As a Jew, Zvi knows the chances of his returning are slim. To this day, Iraq remains the only Arab country that has never signed a ceasefire with Israel since Arab nations declared war on the Jewish state upon its creation in 1948. Jews are not safe there. Really, no one has been for a while. The dictatorship of Saddam Hussein, ISIS, and general civil unrest have made modern-day Iraq dangerous for decades. The region is simply unstable.

The centuries leading up to the Farhud in 1941 were no different. The territory originally known as Mesopotamia flipped from empire to empire, including Babylonian, Mongol, Safavids, Ottoman, British. Just to name a few. But during those centuries, Iraq was historically diverse – home to Muslims, Jews, Assyrian Christians. Yes, Jews were a minority and faced some limitations. But that didn’t change the fact that they loved the place they called home. 

ZVI: We zoom in on the Farhud because it is a relatively unique event. Jews in Iraq were highly integrated, certainly those who lived in the big cities and certainly those who lived in Baghdad. Few reasons to talk about this integration. First of all, they spoke Arabic. Second of all, they participated in the Iraqi transition to modernity. In many ways, the Jewish community even spearheaded Iraqi society’s transition into modernity.

Of course, you know, being a minority, it means that not everything is rosy, and I'm not in any way trying to make it as a rosy situation. But if you compare it to the experiences of European Jews, certainly Europeans in the Pale of Settlement or in Eastern Europe, it's a much lovelier situation. Many Jews participate in Iraqi politics in different ways. Many Jews joined the Communist Party, in fact, lead the Communist Party to a certain extent. Others join different parties that highly identify in terms of Iraqi nationalism.

MANYA: Very few Iraqi Jews identified with the modern Zionist movement, a Jewish nationalist movement to establish a state on the ancestral homeland of the Jews, then known as Palestine. Still, Iraqi Jews were not immune from Arab hostility toward the notion of Jewish self-determination. Adding to that tension: the Nazi propaganda that poured out of the German embassy in Baghdad. 

CAROL: Mein Kampf was translated into Arabic and published in all the newspapers there. There were broadcasts coming from Radio Berlin, in Arabic, politicizing Islam and generally manipulating certain texts from the Quran, to show that Jews were the enemies of Islam. So, there was this constant drip, drip of antisemitism.

ZVI: Another factor is, of course, the British. There is an anti-British government in Baghdad at the time, during the period of someone who went down in history as a Nazi collaborator, Rashid Ali. And Rashid Ali's been removed just before the British retake Iraq. We should remember that basically, even though Iraq is a kind of constitutional monarchy, the British run the show behind the scenes for a very, very long time. So, there is a little bit of a hiatus over several months with Rashid Ali, and then when he is removed, you know, people blame the Jews for that.

MANYA: On the afternoon of June 1, 1941, Jews in Baghdad prepared to celebrate the traditional Jewish harvest festival of Shavuot. Violent mobs descended on the celebrants.

CAROL: In those two days the mobs ran riot and took it all out on the Jews. We don't, to this day, we don't know how many Jews died. Conservative estimates say about 120. We think it was in the thousands. Certainly, a lot of businesses were trashed, houses were burnt, women raped, mutilated, babies killed. It was an awful time. And that was a kind of time when the Jews of Iraq had started to think, ‘Well, maybe this isn't our homeland after all.’

MANYA: The mobs were a fraction of the Iraqi population. Many Muslim residents protected their Jewish neighbors. 

CAROL: One of my relations said that during the Farhud, the pogrom, that her neighbors stood guard over their house, Muslim neighbors, and told the mobs that they wouldn't let them in that these people are our family, our friends. They wouldn't let them in. They looked after each other, they protected each other.

MANYA: But the climate in Iraq was no longer one in which Jews could thrive. Now they just hoped to survive. In the mid-to-late 40s, Carol’s father, who worked for the British army during World War II, left for the United Kingdom and, as the eldest son, began to bring his family out one by one. Then came 1948. Israel declared independence and five Arab nations declared war. 

ZVI: So, Iraq sent soldiers to fight as part of the Arab effort in Palestine, and they began to come back in coffins. I mean, there's a sense of defeat.

Three deserters, three Iraqi soldiers that deserted the war, and crossed the desert back to Iraq, and they landed up in Mosul on the Eve of Passover in 1949. And they knocked on the door of one of my uncles. And they said, they were hosted by this Jewish family. And they were telling the Jews, who were their hosts that evening, about the war in Palestine, and about what was going on and so on. This is just an isolated case, but the point is that you know, it raises the tension in the population, and it raises the tensions against Jews tenfold.

But there's no massive movement of Iraqi Jews, even though the conditions are worsening. In other words, it becomes uneasy for someone to walk in the street as a Jew. There is a certain sense of fear that is going on. And then comes the legal action.

MANYA: That legal action, transacted with the state of Israel and facilitated by Zionist operatives, set the most significant exodus in motion. In 1950, the Iraqi government gave its Jewish citizens a choice. Renounce their Iraqi citizenship, take only what fits in a suitcase, and board a flight to Israel, or stay and face an uncertain future. The offer expired in a year, meaning those who stayed would no longer be allowed to leave.

ZVI: If you're a Jew in Iraq in 1950, you are plunged into a very, very cruel dilemma. First of all, you don't know what the future holds. You do know that the present, after 1948, suggests worsening conditions.

There is a sense that, you know, all the Jews are sort of a fifth column. All of them are associated with Zionism, even though you know, the Zionist movement is actually very small. There are certain persecutions of Zionists and communists who are Jews as well. And, you know, there have been mass arrests of them, you know, particularly of the young, younger Jewish population, so you don't know. And then the state comes in and says, ‘Look, you get one year to stay or to leave. If you leave, you leave. If you stay, you're gonna get stuck here.’ Now, just think about presenting someone with that dilemma after 1935 and the Nuremberg Laws, after what happened in Europe.

MANYA: In all, 120,000 Iraqi Jews leave for Israel over nine months – 90% of Iraqi Jewry. For the ten percent who stayed, they became a weak and endangered minority. Many Iraqis, including the family on Carol’s mother’s side, eventually escaped to America and England. 

CAROL: My mother and my father were separated by a generation. My father was much older, 23 years older than my mother. So, he had a different view of life in Baghdad. When he was around, it was generally very peaceful. The Jews were allowed to live quite, in peace with their neighbors. But with my mother's generation and younger, it was already the beginning – the rot had started to set in. So, she had a different view entirely.

CAROL: My grandmother, maternal grandmother, was the last one to come out of our family, to come out of Iraq. She left in ‘63. And my dad managed to get her out.

MANYA: After Israel defeated another Arab onslaught in 1967, thousands more fled.

ZVI: This was a glorious community, a large community, which was part of the fabric of society for centuries, if not millennia. And then, in one dramatic day, in a very, very short period, it just basically evaporated. And what was left is maybe 10 percent, which may be elite, that decided to risk everything by staying. But even they, at the end, had to leave. 

MANYA: Remember, Carol said she was one of 30 Jewish girls at her school, but the only Mizrahi Jew. The term Mizrahi, which means “Eastern” in Hebrew, refers to the diaspora of descendants of Jewish communities from Middle Eastern countries such as: Iraq, Iran, and Yemen, and North African countries such as: Egypt, Libya, and Morocco.

CAROL: It's been interesting. A lot of people didn't even know that there were Jews living in Arab lands. I mean, for all my life, I've been told, ‘Oh, you're Jewish, you speak Yiddish, you come from Poland. You eat smoked salmon and bagels. You say ‘oy vey,’ which is great if you do all those things and you do come from Eastern Europe, but I don't. Almost 1 million Jews of Arab lands, nobody knows about what happened to them, that they were ethnically cleansed, removed from their homes, and dispersed across the world.

It's our truth. And it's our history and make of it what you will, just add it to other family histories that we know.

MANYA: Carol has discovered that even Iraqis did not know of their country’s rich Jewish past, nor the fate of its Jewish citizens. Since the animated version of The Wolf of Baghdad premiered at the Israeli and Iraqi embassies in London, accompanied by Carol’s accordion and other musicians playing its Judeo-Arabic soundtrack, Iraqis in the audience have been moved to tears. 

CAROL: At one Q&A, after we did a performance, one Iraqi gentleman stood up at the front. He was crying. He said, ‘I'm really sorry for what we did to you. I'm so sorry.’ And that was immensely moving for me. It was like, well, you know what? We're talking now. It's wonderful. We can sit down together. We can talk in a shared language. We can talk about our shared culture, and we've got more that ties us together than separates us. We've got more in common, right? So, I'm always looking for that, that kind of positive, and so far it's come back to me, multiplied by a million, which has been brilliant.

The truth is coming to light, that people know that the Jews of Iraq contributed so much, not just culturally but also socially, in the government too. So, it's this reaching out from Iraq to its lost Jews saying ‘Well where are you? What happened to you? Tell us your story. We want to see where you are. Come back even,’ some of them are saying.

MANYA: Carol has continued to give a voice to the Jewish refugees of Iraq. Most recently, she has been adapting The Wolf of Baghdad for younger, middle school-aged readers to better understand the story. And high schools in London and Canada have added The Wolf of Baghdad to their history curriculum. 

CAROL: Leaving Iraq was called the silent exodus for a reason. We just left quietly and without fuss, and just went and made our lives elsewhere. I do know that life was difficult for them wherever they went, but they just got on with it, like refugees will do everywhere.

MANYA: These Jews are just one of the many Jewish communities who, in the last century left Arab countries to forge new lives for themselves and future generations. Join us next week as we share another untold story of The Forgotten Exodus.

Many thanks to Carol Isaacs for sharing her family's story and to her band 3yin for the music. Throughout this episode, you have been listening to pieces of the soundtrack from The Wolf of Baghdad motion comic performed by 3yin, a groundbreaking London based band that plays Jewish melodies from the Middle East and North Africa. The soundtrack is available at thesurrealmccoy.com.

Atara Lakritz is our producer, CucHuong Do is our production manager. T.K. Broderick is our sound engineer. Special thanks to Jon Schweitzer, Sean Savage, Ian Kaplan, and so many of our colleagues, too many to name really, for making this series possible. And extra special thanks to David Harris, who has been a constant champion for making sure these stories do not remain untold.

You can subscribe to The Forgotten Exodus on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and you can learn more at AJC.org/forgottenexodus. 

The views and opinions of our guests don’t necessarily reflect the positions of AJC. 

You can reach us at theforgottenexodus@ajc.org. If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to spread the word, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review to help more listeners find us.

In May, the White House released its U.S. National Strategy for Countering Antisemitism. As students return to campus, hear from two student leaders who are working to share and implement the strategy’s recommendations at their colleges and beyond: Sabrina Soffer, a rising junior at George Washington University and the head of the school’s Presidential Task Force to Combat Antisemitism, and Abe Baker-Butler, a rising junior at Yale University and the president of the AJC Campus Global Board. 

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Abe Baker-Butler and Sabrina Soffer

Show Notes:

Learn:

• AJC Campus Library: Resources for Becoming a Strong Jewish Student Advocate

Listen:

• IsraAID CEO on Sharing Israel’s Expertise With the World's Most Vulnerable

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

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Transcript of Interview with Abe Baker-Butler and Sabrina Soffer:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

At the end of May, weeks after most college students headed home, abroad, or to summer internships, the White House released its US National Strategy for Countering Antisemitism. But given the timing, it's unclear how many students know it exists. With me are two student leaders who not only know, they've shared it with other students with the intention of helping to implement its recommendations for college campuses, when in a few weeks they go back to school. 

Sabrina Soffer, a rising junior at George Washington University is the Commissioner of the Presidential Task Force to Combat Antisemitism at GW, and Abe Baker-Butler, a rising junior at Yale University is the president of the AJC Campus Global Board. Abe, Sabrina, welcome to People of the Pod.

Abe Baker-Butler: 

Thank you for having us, Manya.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So I will ask you both, when did you hear about the US national strategy? 

Abe Baker-Butler:  

So I heard about the national strategy when it was in the headlines initially. But with school ending and finals, I didn't have the time to actually sit down and read it in full until we got to AJC Global Forum. And what really stuck with me was how there are real action items in there for students, and not only Jewish students, but all students to take action to combat antisemitism. And I was very excited that as the campus global board, we had the opportunity to spend some real quality time brainstorming how we could play a meaningful role in implementing this National Strategy to Combat Antisemitism.

Sabrina Soffer:  

So yeah, that's really interesting, I took very similar tidbits away from the strategy. But the first time that I heard about it was actually the same day that I was giving a talk to a group of women in San Diego, which is my hometown, in California. And it gave a lot of hope to the women who were listening to what I was saying, especially because the talk was about my experience on campus, which I think I'll get into a little bit later. But similar to Abe, the time I read it on the plane, actually on the way to Israel. So I had quite a bit of time to do that. And the thing that really stuck with me was exactly what Abe said, how all students, not just Jewish students, can take action and also the interfaith component. I think that having other students stand up for the Jewish community is essential and spreading awareness that way can really help in the fight to combat antisemitism.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So yes, Sabrina, I do want to talk to you a little bit more about the Taskforce. But first, Abe, can you tell us about the AJC Campus Global Board? It was formed last year, but who makes up its membership? And why? Why are they on this board?

Abe Baker-Butler:  

We're a group of 30 students, I believe, there are 20 of us from the United States, 10 of us from the rest of the world. And when I say the rest of the world, truly the whole rest of the world, Australia, to South Africa, to Europe, you name it. And our mission that we're working to pursue, is to support AJC's work on campus, and also to really ensure that AJC's work is informed from a student leader and young person's perspective. I think it's a real testament to AJC that they are taking this tangible step to prioritize us as young people and to say, you know, we want to hear you, and we want your perspectives to inform our advocacy.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So what schools do students hail from? Are they all East Coast schools? Or is there geographic diversity?

Abe Baker-Butler:  

Certainly not all East Coast schools, we have people from all over ranging from the University of Florida University of Southern California, University of Tennessee, Northwestern, and that's just in the United States. Our goal is really to ensure that we are incorporating a broad array of perspectives from across our country, from across also all parts of the Jewish community. We care deeply on the Campus Global Board about ensuring that we're embracing a pluralistic Judaism, that we have people from all denominations, all backgrounds, and we believe that by doing that we can best inform AJC's work.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And what have you done so far? 

Abe Baker-Butler:  

So in the past year, we've really been building our structure and integrating ourselves into the AJC institution. A few highlights that I can think of from the past year that have been particularly meaningful to me, are well I guess this is one of the biggest ones in my mind during the development and prior to the announcement of the National Strategy to Combat Antisemitism, Holly Huffnagle, AJC's US director for combating antisemitism, her and other AJC content experts and staff took the time to meet with a contingent of our Campus Global Board members to hear their thoughts in a listening session of sorts. And then what Holly and those staff members did is they took those thoughts and used them as they were giving feedback to the White House, as it developed the National Strategy. To me that's extremely meaningful. 

Some other events we did is we had an event with Ted at University of Pennsylvania, which received really diverse audience in terms of Jewish denominations and observance, which I was very happy about. 

We also held an event with Richie Torres, at Harvard, which was also much needed, given the situation on campus there. And beyond those sorts of headline events, we've also been doing more-- we’ve started a mentorship program between our campus full board and ACCESS. And there's a lot more in the pipeline, too, that I can also talk about.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Can you talk a little bit more about what was going on at Harvard? Is the campus global board, is the primary responsibility to respond to situations?

Abe Baker-Butler:  

Yes, so the reason I made that remark is because I think there's often a perception that you can't be both progressive and Zionist, and I think Ritchie Torres, who was our speaker there, really cuts that misconception straight through. But in terms of us responding to what's going on on campus, another really interesting part of our work that I'm proud of is our antisemitic incident response. Whenever there is an antisemitic incident on a campus, we the leadership of the campus global board, try and reach out to the Jewish leaders on that campus, whether it be the presidents of Hillel, or the head of the Chabad board. And we come saying, Hey, we're not here looking to get any kind of headlines, or press coverage, or to meet with your university administrators. You tell us what you need. And we're here as a group of 30 committed individuals to provide it to you. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Sabrina, tell us about GW’s task force to combat anti semitism and who makes up that group?

Sabrina Soffer:  

Yeah, so GW's task force came about after the Lara Sheehi incident that happened in December. So basically, there was a professor who was teaching a mandatory diversity class at the grad school level. Everybody had to introduce where they were coming from. And there was a group of students from Tel Aviv. And the professor responded, it's not your fault you were born in Israel. And to make a long story short, that class became increasingly about imperialism and settler colonialism and more anti-Israel over time, and the students became more and more uncomfortable, and even after they reported it to the dean, there was no accountability. And then there was a title six complaint. And after that, there was an investigation conducted by the University, I guess, the university hired a law firm. And they found that there was not only no antisemitism, but no discrimination, because it fell within the lines of free speech, what was going on in the classroom, which I don't necessarily agree with, I think that it created a really hostile environment. Because the students did report that they couldn't sleep well, they couldn't eat because they had to turn in assignments to that professor who they couldn't trust because obviously, she disrespected them because of their identity. 

So something I'm trying to do with the taskforce is trying to create trust between all members of the GW community, whether they agree or disagree, and no matter their identity groups, but I'll put that aside for now. So after that incident happened, there was a student in the student government, I think he's the former legislator General. And he was friends with the president of Chabad. And I'm the vice president. So they were speaking about it. And I guess the president, who's a good friend of mine, said, Oh, I have a friend who's very much involved in the Jewish world. And she would definitely like to take on an initiative like this one, and create a taskforce to deal with these issues on campus, because we've had quite a few of them that are either similar or radically different than the Lara Sheehi incident. So you know, I took the task upon myself I, they gave me some parameters of what to do, like it had to be 10 students, which I've now expanded to 15, because I couldn't reject people who seriously sounded amazing in their interviews, and then it had to be tied to the student government in some sort. So from there, I had to pass it through three different committees on the task force, and I really wanted it to be an all encompassing group. For example, I didn't want it all Jews, like the White House National Strategy says.

And I think at the back of my mind, my mom raised me with this principle of like, you can't solve a problem without making people who are a part of the problem, a part of the solution. So I said, You know what, let's go for it, Yallah, and it'll be better this way. And we'll figure out these issues together. So then it came about, it was voted on unanimously. And then we've kind of started doing some work during the summer, we started collecting data. I've gotten the whole team organized, and I'm really, really pleased.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You know, I'm sure there are Jewish students who are listening, who are heading to campus as freshmen this year, perhaps their parents or their grandparents are listening. And Sabrina, I'm curious, what should they expect? And how can they prepare to be a Jewish student on an American college campus?

Sabrina Soffer:  

So I think that every campus is different. And I want to preface this by saying that no, the campuses themselves, besides a few, like, you can't label the campus as an antisemitic University, I think that's really important to note. For me, from what I've seen in conversations with administrators, with faculty and other students, is that there's a problem of systemic ignorance that breeds antisemitism, not so much a problem of systemic antisemitism. Because really, people don't have that, the majority of people don't have that much hate in their heart, you know, to like, go out and say tropes and demonize, you know, another, another person's identity for no reason. 

I think it really comes from people trying to advocate for something else, but they don't know how it makes other people feel, or they just don't care. And I think we have to do a better job of explaining how we feel. So that was just a little bit of a preface, but the backstory is that I came into college not having any idea what this would be like. I tried to look for a campus with a great Jewish community, which GW absolutely has. Not all campuses have it. But I'm lucky, I actually don't believe that we do have a Chabad, Hillel, Meor, GW for Israel. So groups that I really identify with, and I thought that I would have no problem. However, in some of the classes that I was taking, I would openly share my ties to Israel, where my family was from, where I got my principles and my ethics. And over time, I came to realize that my ideas were being tarnished, they were being called racist and xenophobic.

This was just a quick story. We were trying to talk about Holocaust education and slavery education, and one girl told me, Oh, the Holocaust is a lot more sensitized than slavery in school, because Jews are white. And that's like, I took that very, you know, did not sit well with me. But it was a problem of ignorance. I had a conversation with the girl afterward. And you know, we reconcile the differences, but like, I think that happens a lot on campus where there's so much ignorance, that it just comes out in ways that they shouldn't. 

So, from then on, I really took it upon myself to become an educator, no matter what people would think of me. I would always try to spread my truth and do it in a loving way. 

So I would just encourage all Jewish students before they get to campus to find their community because this whole time that I was experiencing this difficulty, I was really leaning on my Chabad friends, my Hillel friends, and of course, my family back home. Always talk to your parents. I think that's a really important point. And find the people who are going to support you no matter what. So that's just my my big piece of advice as well as get yourself educated. Know your history. Know your facts, know your identity, and never stop being who you are. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Abe, what about you? What advice do you have for incoming freshmen?

Abe Baker-Butler:  

Yeah, well, I think Sabrina really hit the nail on the head here by talking about ignorance. The stories I've heard from my friends and what I've experienced on campus, I've seen that a lot of the antisemitism we see is really driven by ignorance. I've heard multiple times on my campus. ideas such as the Jews are white and privileged. Why do the Jews have so many resources in the form of their lovely Hillel building? Look how rich the Jews are-they have security guards. These kinds of ideas, these kinds of comments. I think they're not coming from. Yeah, I don't think there's such a thing as informed hatred, right. I think that's an oxymoron. But they're coming out of ignorance. And I think because these sorts of antisemitic sentiments are coming out of ignorance. It makes the work that people like Sabrina and I, like Sabrina's taskforce and our campus global board, I think it makes the work that we're doing, ever more important, extremely important. 

Abe Baker-Butler:  

In terms of my advice for Jewish students coming to campus, I would say, you should keep in mind that while you can have an extremely meaningful impact by teaching those who may be ignorant about antisemitism, you also should remember that it is not only your responsibility to fight antisemitism, it is the entire community's responsibility to fight antisemitism. That includes it, should and must include allies. And then the other advice I would give is exactly what Sabrina said, you should know that as a Jewish student, there is a community behind you both on your campus, whether it's Hillel or Chabad, or anything else. And also, nationally, there are students like Sabrina and I, who are here to support you. There are organizations like Jewish on Campus, for example, of students that have ambassador's programs on campus. So you should never feel alone as a Jewish student on campus. Because there's so many people out there who care about you and support you. And you have the facts behind you.

Sabrina Soffer:  

I also just something that's really important for students to know is like know your rights on campus, both in the campus realm and the legal realm. Because what happened with the Lara Sheehi incident, those students, they knew how to report the incident. But there was no accountability. So it's like, where do I go from there? I've had students, I've had friends who've given up after they've had incidents, and they didn't know to go to groups, like AJC or Hillel International, maybe to help them out. So I think that knowing your rights before you get to campus is imperative.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You know, I was going to add, thank you so much, Sabrina, for that. I was also going to add to what Abe said, you know, I went to a very small school. For undergraduate. I was one of two Jews on campus that I know of. There might have been more. So there was no Hillel. It was a very small, tiny Jewish community. But like you said, there are organizations like AJC, there are national organizations. Now there's a national action plan that applies to every school. Not just these larger schools that have Hillels or Chabads on campus.

So we talked about engaging different points of view, and different perspectives. These are all young people, your age, still learning. I also think it's very important to build and find allies on campus. I think that right there is a potential for education. And Abe, I am curious what kind of thought the campus global board has given to engaging different points of view and finding allies?

Abe Baker-Butler:

So we care deeply about finding allies. One thing I do want to highlight is the AJC curriculum that we've been developing with Dr. Sara Coodin that we look to use on campuses. And in terms of finding allies. That is key if it's central to our work on the campus global board. Some ideas that we have that we're working on include collaboration, brotherhood and sisterhood events, with Black and Jewish fraternities and sororities, reading groups between black and Jewish groups on campus to understand each other's shared perspectives. Joint interfaith seders and events between Muslim and Jewish groups on campuses. We really have a responsibility to create shared communities of goodwill, who can be our allies on campus, because in addition to having the national strategy and having national organizations like AJC on campuses, like the one you attended Manya, having allies like that is perhaps the most important because they can be that community that supports you. 

And the other thing that I wanted to add to what we were discussing before, in terms of advice for Jewish students that I neglected to say was, you should always be proud of your Jewish identity. Always, always, always. You're the heir to an extremely rich intellectual and cultural tradition. And anyone who tries to make you feel ashamed of that or to slander that is wrong, and you should not heed what they say.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I am curious if you could share how you have celebrated, enjoyed being Jewish on campus?

Sabrina Soffer:  

This past April it was Yom Ha'atzmaut and we had Israel fest. It's a GW for Israel organized, we put Israeli flags in Cogan Plaza, the main plaza, we had loud music, falafel, shawarma, everything, and we were just dancing. And it was just the most amazing experiences not only feel like, for me, a lot of my Jewish identity comes from, like Zionism and my Israeli background. So just being able to celebrate Yom Ha’atzmaut with a bunch of my Jewish friends who also support Israel. And it was just amazing. And also like a lot of the music that I grew up with, and that I'm familiar with, that was very fun to like, have in public on campus, and also having non Jews join us in that celebration. And this was all while SJP and JVP, were sitting right in front of us for literally two hours with posters with very hostile messages about Israel. And we didn't pay any attention, we kept dancing, and they just it's like, you know, we will do our thing, we'll be proud, we block out the noise, block out the hate. So that felt pretty great. 

And then another experience I had was on Pesach, my parents come and visit me a lot. I brought them to Chabad for Pesach, and it was just like they fit in so nicely with all my friends, all the students and the whole GW community. Chabad was really the organization that ushered me in at the beginning, they really made me feel like home away from home, and having my parents who like literally made my home amazing, very Jewish. Like they brought me up in a Jewish home, having them in my new kind of home in college just was very rewarding. So those are two experiences.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Both sound beautiful, both sound really, really lovely. And I just want to clarify for listeners, JVP stands for Jewish Voice for Peace, and SJP is Students for Justice in Palestine, which are two groups on college campuses that have engaged in a lot of anti-Israel rhetoric.

Abe, I want to turn back to you for one last question. And that is, I asked you what the Campus Global Board has done and it's one year of existence, but what will it do in the year ahead? What do you envision accomplishing?

Abe Baker-Butler:  

Probably the most central part of our plans for this year, I want to highlight is implementing the White House national strategy on combating anti semitism on campus. One idea that we're working on, not finalized yet, but that I'm hoping will become a reality is an incubator of sorts, where we'll put out a call for proposals from not only Jewish but non Jewish groups about how to fight antisemitism on campus, in line with the plan. And then our goal is that the campus goal board will sift through the proposals that we receive and figure out how we can best support, financially and otherwise, these organizations on campus in conducting activities that will help implement the plan and stem antisemitism.

Some other ideas we have are, we want to bring diplomats from Abraham Accords countries to campuses to help stem the ignorance that I was talking about. And then also, we want to ensure to, the point I was making earlier about integrating young people, and really walking to talk with young people as part of AJC's advocacy. We want to ensure that young people, members of the campus cohort and others aren't as many AJC advocacy meetings and settings as possible, because we believe, and AJC believes as well, that when our voices are there, it provides for an even more persuasive advocacy, and an even more full representation of the interests of the Jewish community.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Can you give examples of where that advocacy takes place? Where would these young people go?

Abe Baker-Butler:  

Certainly. So we're planning to do it at all levels. One example would be Diplomatic Marathon alongside the UN General Assembly, meetings with diplomats there but also at the local level with legislators and others, at the regional office level. There are a lot of opportunities for young people to get involved in AJC's work. And we want to ensure that young voices are represented in all of these meetings, whether it be domestic legislators or diplomats or anyone else. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Sabrina, Abe, thank you so much for joining us and discussing what your plans are for this year. I wish you both a lot of luck and I hope you most of all enjoy your junior years in college. 

Sabrina Soffer:  

Thank you so much for having us. 

Abe Baker-Butler:  

Thank you, Manya. Shabbat shalom. 

Sabrina Soffer:  

Shabbat shalom. 

Bishop Joseph Bambera marks the launch of a groundbreaking Catholic-Jewish initiative - Translate Hate: The Catholic Edition - with a wide-ranging interview with AJC’s People of the Pod. At a time when recent events have challenged Catholic-Jewish relations, Bambera, the Chairman of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops Committee (USCCB) on Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs, details why the church has made combating antisemitism a priority. 

Translate Hate: The Catholic Edition, a joint project of AJC and the USCCB, features Catholic commentary on various entries of AJC’s renowned Translate Hate glossary of antisemitic terms, themes, and memes. It comes as Catholic and Jewish communities prepare to mark six decades of trust-building and mutual learning beginning when the Catholic Church reached out to the Jewish people and the world with Nostra Aetate, the historic Second Vatican Council document disseminated on October 28, 1965, which dramatically and publicly decried antisemitism and transformed the Church’s approach to the Jewish people for the better.Resources:

New Glossary Breaks Ground in Tackling Antisemitism Through a Catholic Lens

Listen – AJC Podcasts:

• The Forgotten Exodus: with Hen Mazzig, Einat Admony, and more.

• People of the Pod: 

• Bernard-Henri Lévy and AJC CEO Ted Deutch on How to Build a Resilient Jewish Future Post-October 7

• What’s Next for the Abraham Accords Under President Trump?

• The ICC Issues Arrest Warrants: What You Need to Know

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

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Transcript of Conversation with Bishop Bambera:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Nearly 60 years ago, the Roman Catholic Church issued a declaration called Nostra Aetate, a groundbreaking document that, among other things, aimed to heal the Church's strained relationship with the Jewish community at large. But over the past year, since the start of the Israel-Hamas war, there have been some tense moments: a call from Pope Francis to investigate whether Israel is committing genocide, a photograph of the Pope before a Nativity scene–featuring a keffiyeh.

Now AJC and the US Conference of Catholic Bishops have unveiled Translate Hate: the Catholic edition, the glossary of antisemitic terms, tropes and memes, originally published in 2019, also features Catholic commentaries to explain why the church has made combating antisemitism a priority. Here to talk about this partnership is Bishop Joseph Bambera, Chairman of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops Committee on Ecumenical and interreligious affairs. Bishop, welcome.

Most Reverend Joseph C. Bambera:  

Thank you for the honor of being with you today.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Bishop Bambera, please walk us through the Catholic edition of Translate Hate and how the Catholic Church became involved in this initiative together with the Jewish community.

Most Reverend Joseph C. Bambera:  

I think the best way to walk us through the Translate Hate Catholic edition is to first take us back to 1965 and the Second Vatican Council and the declaration on the church's relationship with non-Christian religions, and particularly with the Jewish community.

There was this really milestone declaration Nostra Aetate that I think many of us would be familiar with, and that really speaks about our relationship as it stands today. A relationship that I would say. tragically prior to the Second Vatican Council was not what it should have been. And on the heels of the Council, for almost 60 years, an anniversary that we’ll celebrate next year, we have grown together in mutual respect and understanding. 

That particular declaration Nostra aetate speaks very, very clearly about the fact that Catholics and Jews really share a common patrimony. We Catholics, our roots are in Judaism. Jesus was Jewish. His family was. And so many members of the early church were as well. And we recognize and affirm in that document the fact that the Jewish people were the first to hear the Word of God and are a part of a covenant relationship that certainly has not been in any way broken, but has been maintained. And something that we affirm and that we teach in that document. A very important thing, from my perspective.

And as well, the document reminds all those who would be familiar with it, and certainly who should be, if they are not, of the importance of us coming to a deeper sense of mutual respect and understanding. Of decrying any sense of hatred, persecution, or antisemitic efforts on the part of individuals that really have been such a burden to the Jewish people. So that particular document really laid the groundwork, for the very simple fact that I am here today and a part of this initiative. 

But to fast forward a bit, the reality of antisemitism, as you know better than I, it has hardly diminished, and sadly, has intensified in recent years. And well before October 7 of 2023. So much so that the bishops of the United States, many of them, brought to the attention of the committee that I chair, the Bishops Committee for Humanism and Interreligious Affairs, have brought to our attention the fact that we need to begin to do something in a more concrete way. To walk more intimately and closely and lovingly with our Jewish brothers and sisters and to address the reality of antisemitism in a very real and concrete manner. 

And so in 2022 this committee that I just referenced, they issued a document that they shared with all of the bishops. It's called the Fruits of Dialogues: Catholics Confronting Antisemitism. And in many respects, I would say that that particular document was the impetus for this initiative that we are a part of today, the Translate Hate Catholic Edition, hopefully it's been the impetus for other efforts on the part of many bishops in their own particular dioceses and archdiocese to work with their Jewish partners, to help to eradicate this, or certainly to address it in a way that is hope filled. 

So this document has been in the works now for quite a while particularly with the leadership of the Bishop's Committee and the American Jewish Committee as well. What you will find is building upon the antisemitic themes and tropes that were placed in the document when the American Jewish Committee put it together; we have provided commentary on a number of them from a Catholic perspective.

So you know, if you look at the notion of deicide, the commentary that we provide there offers very clear Catholic theological teaching on the fact that that whole reality is certainly not something that we would ever intend to insinuate today is the responsibility of all of the Jewish people. In the midst of these commentaries, we offer current theological teaching. We offer teaching on human dignity, which is so much a part of our tradition and our hope and prayer for humankind, and we acknowledge, as well, in some of those commentaries, the fact that, you know, some members of the Church throughout history have been insensitive and inappropriately offered, and perhaps even negligently offered, words and actions that led to antisemitic efforts, sadly on the part of so many.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So what is the expectation? This document is going out. How are you expecting or wanting parishes and pastors to implement it?

Most Reverend Joseph C. Bambera:  

Given the fact that it the document that the Bishops Committee came out with in 2022 was really at the initiative of many bishops in the United States, I would like to believe and think that the vast majority of our bishops will embrace this and use it in whatever way speaks to the situation within their own territory, their own region, relative to the Jewish community there. So for example, once this is officially promulgated today, later on in the day, we will be releasing from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops on our bishops-only website. 

We will be releasing a letter from me as the chair of this committee, and the document, and that will be followed up with a hard copy that will be sent to every bishop in the near future, following the online version that they'll receive today. We anticipate that this will be used by other committees that might have some relationship to the work that our committee does, and the hope that they would use them. We will be disseminating it to ecumenical officers who are appointed in every one of our dioceses to do the work of ecumenism and interreligious affairs folks. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You mentioned Nostra Atate. In 1965 you were just a child then. And I should also mention AJC played a leading role in those conversations, as well with Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel. You were ordained 20 years later. And I'm just curious if this major turning point in Catholic Jewish relations, did it come up in your theology training, or 20 years later, was it just accepted as the norm?

Most Reverend Joseph C. Bambera:  

You know, I will be frank with you, the term that you used in asking the question was, did it come up? Yes, it did. It did. But given the scope of issues that would be necessary to prepare a man for ministry in the church as a priest in the seminary, it was one of many things that everything rose to the level of being absolutely vital, all right, to our preparation. So this was but it took its place in a whole line of other things that were just as vital. 

So maybe the best way to answer your question was, you know, a great deal of the teaching of the Second Vatican Council was integrated into many of the theology courses that I would have taken, all right, and the same would go for something like Nostra Atate. All right. We were, I was certainly familiar with it. All right. It was certainly something that was communicated as a very significant teaching, a milestone moment in our church, a clear refocusing of our relationship with the Jewish community. Prior to that, there were no relationships officially. So it was put before us as something that was vital to consider. But I would not be honest in wanting to suggest that in some way it was a major focus. It was one of many.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I do want to fast forward and talk about today. Of course, Catholic Jewish relations are quite complicated now, especially given the Israel Hamas war, I imagine educating inspiring your flock on the moral complexities of that war, while also rallying the faithful to combat the rise of antisemitism against Israel and the Jewish Diaspora at large is very complicated, and there have been some tense moments. Recently, a letter from Pope Francis, one year after the October 7 terror attacks, included a couple kind of eerily iconic phrases from John 8:44, a verse that's long been understood as a fundamental, eternal indictment of the entire Jewish people. He was even cited by the Pittsburgh synagogue shooter. A lot of Jews are irate that the Pope has called for an investigation into whether Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. And most recently, some people were upset that the nativity scene at the Vatican featured a baby Jesus resting in a manger draped with a keffiyeh, Palestinian national symbol, and I know that has since been removed from that scene. But how do you talk about all of these moments with your Jewish friends, friends like the Hollanders, when they arise?

Most Reverend Joseph C. Bambera:  

First of all, the concern that you share in that question, maybe the hurt or the confusion that some of these things have caused. It's rather palpable. I spoke about it just coming into the studio today with Rabbi Marans.

I would first say that the very fact that in this exchange that we are having here today, on a day that is a real positive step. I believe in Catholic Jewish relations with the promulgation of the Translate Hate Catholic Edition, I would say it's a testimony to the relationship that we have developed. And I want to thank you for that. I want to thank you for the question, you know, they're, not easy questions to address, but they are of great concern to you and so many others. And you, on behalf of your people, have a responsibility to ask me that question, and I need to say to you that my presence here today is meant to speak a word of encouragement regarding our relationship. It is one that is deeply valued. I treasure it. I'm grateful for it. I am honored to be here today. 

Now with that, let me, let me speak a little bit more directly to the question and how these types of things are addressed. I look at the work that I have done in ecumenism and interreligious affairs, and I've been privileged to be chairman of this committee for a term now, for three years. I was previously back in 2017 elected chairman of this very same committee. So I've been at the helm of it twice now, and I've learned so much, so much from Christian partners, so much from our Jewish partners. One of the things that I have learned in the midst of the work that I have done with ecumenism is that I can't create a false sense of unity and harmony. For us to journey together in a positive way, I need to hear what you have to say, and I need to receive it, and I can't say something that is contrary to where my church is. 

Now, another dimension of the dialogue work that I have learned relates to listening. How do we listen to what we hear about this relationship? What are we hearing when we read something about Pope Francis? How is that speaking to our hearts? What is it saying to this relationship? I hear from you hurt. I hear from you confusion. I said that a moment ago.

For me, and perhaps this is the best thing that I can say, and I would say it across all three areas or topics that you raised in your question, I would say this much. I can't speak for Pope Francis. But what I can do is reflect to you what I hear from him and what I have heard from him throughout his 11 years as Pope. I have heard from him very, very early on, and you're all familiar with this quote that he offered to a Jewish interreligious organization way back, I think, in 2013 or 14, shortly after he was elected Pope, that a true Christian cannot be an antisemite. That's something that I would affirm, and that's something that I have never heard him go back on. 

I have heard him embrace better than probably I have heard prior to his election, a deep commitment to the documents of Vatican Council, Vatican Two, and particularly, a deep commitment to the tenets of Nostra Aetate. The other thing that I've heard from Pope Francis, and perhaps this speaks to some of the struggle that you raise that in the face of terrorism and war and the loss of innocent lives, of Jewish lives that were lost in 2023 and of countless other lives that are lost throughout our world in the midst of war. I hear him speak over and over again about human dignity, the value of life and the reason for why we treasure life, and that's rooted in a common scripture that we both cherish, in the first book of the Torah, Genesis, the first chapter. In the image of God man was created, in the image and likeness of God. I think that that speaks for me to this moment. 

It does not take away, and I would not imagine that for a moment some of the struggle that you experience, but that's what I hear when I look at his papacy. I also look at some more personal dimensions of it. And I know that his experience as the archbishop of Buenos Aires was an experience that found him deeply connected to the Jewish community, particularly to a close friend of his, whom I've been privileged to meet, Rabbi Abraham Skorka. So I share these things with you in response to your observation. And by the same token, I would say to you that we have miles to go before we achieve the end for which we are about here today.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

In this moment, Bishop, do you believe that Translate Hate, specifically this new Catholic edition has particular value in this, in this moment that we talked about, where the relationship can get complicated?

Most Reverend Joseph C. Bambera:  

I think, in any moment in time when there is suffering because of hatred, because of an antisemitic perspective that so many people so horrifically bring to life, I think this particular initiative is vital, and I think today more than ever, we have recognized it in our church, the sufferings of our Jewish brothers and sisters. We have recognized it globally. We have recognized it in our country, and we experience it in in my community, Scranton, relatively, you know, small city of about 100,000 people, you know, we it's sadly, it's sadly everywhere.

I believe this moment is a bit of a clarion call for all of us to walk a little bit more authentically and closely with our Jewish brothers and sisters. It's one thing to have issued a document 60 years ago. You can forget the intensity and the significance that document was and meant 60 years ago, 50 years ago, maybe even 40 years ago. But as time goes on and generations pass, we sometimes need to refocus our attention, don't we? And we need to recognize the fact that as our society, becomes more secularized, we can't possibly circle the wagons to just preserve what we have.

Every one of our congregations, many of yours and many of mine, are diminishing in terms of numbers since the pandemic, but also before that as well. And I think sadly, what you see in many congregations is this sense of trying to preserve what one has and therefore excluding others. Not just, I certainly don't necessarily mean from being in a church or a synagogue or temple, but I mean excluding from life by one's attitudes and one's actions and one's words. And I think we are, at this moment, really at risk of losing a sense of what we learn and how we grow from dialogue. 

I'm here to tell you today that I am so much richer personally because of this opportunity that I have been given to be a part of this initiative, frankly, to even prepare for today. It's just been a wonderful experience for me that has really re-energized me. This wonderful mission. But it's also reminded me of how much people who are involved in in faith traditions, in a leadership position, can be somewhat academically connected to something. It's it's got to be translated to the heart, and I hope that that's what happens here.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I mentioned that you were just a child when Nostra Aetate came about. Can you tell us a little bit about your upbringing and when you heard the calling to seek ordination and become a priest?

Most Reverend Joseph C. Bambera:  

I grew up in a Catholic family. I didn't have a lot of Jewish friends. There weren't a lot of Jewish people living in our community, although I did develop friends as as I went off to college. Okay, when I when I got the call to be a become a priest. I was actually at the University of Pittsburgh with every intention of becoming a dentist. It was kind of the family business, okay? And and I got involved in an ecumenical Christian campus ministry program. But, you know, it was just an experience that really called me to develop a deeper sense of authenticity, I think, in my faith journey, and, and, and so that's what ultimately prompted me to go into the seminary and become a priest. Did you grow up in Pittsburgh? I grew up in Scranton, where I serve as bishop, which is very unusual. So I my mom, who, at 97 still lives nearby. We I've spent my entire ministry in the Diocese of Scranton, and 15 years ago was appointed Bishop.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Wow, wow. That that is indeed rare, and that is indeed rare. So you get to see the parish in which you you grew up.

Most Reverend Joseph C. Bambera:  

I do. I do, yeah. And I've journeyed with this community, there's, there's pluses and minuses to something like that. You know, sometimes people say, What's the best thing about being bishop in your home diocese? I say, you know people, and they know you and and what's the most challenging thing? You know people and they know you.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Well, Bishop, thank you so much for sharing what the church’s teaching now and how it's collaborating with AJC to build bridges and educate your flock. Thank you so much, and thank you for joining us.

Most Reverend Joseph C. Bambera:  

It's been a real pleasure.

What’s it like being a Jewish student at Harvard today? With us to tell their firsthand accounts are Nitsan Machlis, Co-Chair of the Harvard Kennedy School Jewish Caucus, and Shabbos Kestenbaum, a Harvard Divinity school student who is part of a group that sued the university–alleging that they failed to address “severe and pervasive” campus antisemitism. 

AJC's State of Antisemitism in America 2023 Report found that 24% of current or recent college students say they felt uncomfortable or unsafe at a campus event because they're Jewish. Listen in to hear from Machlis and Kestenbaum on how Harvard’s administration has made Jewish students feel unwelcome and unsupported – and what they’re doing to fix it.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Nitsan Machlis, Shabbos Kestenbaum

Show Notes:

Listen – People of the Pod on the Israel-Hamas War:

• The Fallout from the University Presidents Congressional Hearing: What Does it Mean for Jewish Students?

• When Antisemites Target Local Businesses: How Communities Are Uniting in Response

• How A 10/7 Survivor is Confronting Anti-Israel Activists on College Campuses

• Tal Shimony Survived the Hamas Attack on the Nova Music Festival: Hear Her Story of Courage, Resilience, and Remembrance

More Analysis and Resources:
 

• What is Students for Justice in Palestine, the Hamas-supporting Anti-Israel Group Being Banned on College Campuses?

• Confronting Campus Antisemitism: An Action Plan for University Students

• AJC Campus Library
  
  

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Transcript of Interview with Nitsan Machlis and Shabbos Kestenbaum:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Since the October 7 terror attack on Israel by Hamas, it has become increasingly difficult for Jewish students to feel safe on American college campuses. AJC's state of antisemitism and America 2023 report found that 24% of current or recent college students say they felt uncomfortable or unsafe at a campus event because they're Jewish. This is even true at one of the world's top Ivy League schools. Some might even say, especially true at Harvard University. 

This week, the co-chair of a task force set up by Harvard to combat anti semitism resigned. The second such departure after Rabbi David Wolpe resigned from an anti semitism Advisory Committee. He cited former Harvard President Claudine Gay’s congressional testimony and events on campus, which reinforced the idea that he could not make the sort of difference he had hoped. The latest event on campus: a blatantly antisemitic cartoon circulated on Instagram by pro Palestinian student groups. 

Here to give us some perspective on the ground are Harvard Divinity student Shabbos Kestenbaum  and head of the Harvard Kennedy School Jewish Caucus, Nitsan Machlis. 

Shabbos, Nitsan, welcome to People of the Pod.

Nitsan Machlis:  

Thank you.

Shabbos Kestenbaum:  

Thank you. Good to be here.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So as I mentioned on Sunday, Professor Raphaela Sadoon resigned from her role on the University Task Force to Combat Antisemitism. Any idea why? 

Shabbos Kestenbaum:  

Sure. So when President Garber put out that announcement, it was definitely a surprise to many of us. The official reason was she wanted to focus on her administrative and academic responsibilities as a professor at the business school. But we know that that's not true. The very next day, The Harvard Crimson wrote an article detailing from members on the antisemitism Task Force, that she was incredibly frustrated with the slow pace, with the bureaucracy. And more fundamentally, she had asked Harvard to commit themselves to actually applying the recommendations that the taskforce would issue. And Harvard was not willing to do that. And I think that speaks volumes, again, about their priorities and how serious they are about combating antisemitism, that they wouldn't even commit themselves to listening to the advice of people that they themselves appointed. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So what are some of those basic obvious objectives that you think the task force–what are your expectations for this task force?

Shabbos Kestenbaum:  

Well, my expectations for the task force is nothing. I mean, the first one was so remarkably useless. It was disbanded after, what 40 days. And this one, I'll give it, let's say 100 days tops. But in terms of what I would want to see, and what Jewish students have been asking for for years, is I'll give you an example. When all incoming students come into Harvard, they take mandatory Title Nine training, and it tells them that things like fat phobia, like sizeism, like the wrong gender pronouns are forms of abuse, and they can be disciplinary, if someone were to engage in them. 

Why is antisemitism not included in that type of mandatory training? And why is it that we need the largest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust for Harvard to wake up to that reality? So that's number one. 

Number two, we need to see the fair enforcement of the school code of conduct and the fair enforcement of school policies. If you're a student engaged in antisemitism, the way that many of them are at the moment, you will be disciplined in the same way you would be and you have been, because Harvard has a track record of doing this, if you were engaged in racism, or sexism, or homophobia. But why the double standard when it comes to Jews?

And then more fundamentally, we need to really restructure and reconsider DEI, diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives on campus that have never included Jewish people. Not once. These are just three basic recommendations off the top of my head that we've been saying for so, so long. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

It seems like students and faculty are simply oblivious to just how vulnerable Jewish students are feeling. Case in point the cartoon last week showing a hand marked with a star of David and $1 sign holding nooses around the necks of a black man and an Arab. Can you share with our listeners, what kinds of explanations, apologies or consequences that you've heard about associated with that cartoon? 

Nitsan Machlis:  

That cartoon was really upsetting on a personal level. I'll share maybe attuned with the general theme here that I personally have never felt threatened on campus. I have friends who have had very bad experiences. I think antisemitism at an institutional level definitely exists. 

But I think that cartoon for me was the first time that I really felt like, wow, this is very upsetting. And this is something that could hurt me. I haven't had conversations with students about the cartoon. And I was actually surprised how many students were unaware that that cartoon had, in fact, been circulating. 

And many times I found that in conversations I'll have with friends, they will be very upset, but they didn't even know it was happening. So I will hear about this first from my Israeli circles or from my Jewish circles. But many students are really unaware the extent these images are circulating on campus. So I don't know if that directly answers the question of reactions. 

But for me, there's been this big question of how do people not know this is happening? And how can I be so upset for several days over this and my classmates are not even aware.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Shabbos you, as you were saying, you're one of six students who has sued the university for not adequately protecting Jewish students. In fact, you personally encountered antisemitism. Can you share that experience with our listeners?

Shabbos Kestenbaum:  

Sure. So unfortunately, I haven't just encountered it on a one off, but it's been pervasive and it's been consistent. But one particular example that stands out was the very first day of the spring semester here at Harvard. I was walking through Harvard Yard and I noticed that every single poster that called attention to kidnapped Jewish babies was vandalized and not just vandalized, but with horrific horrific antisemitism, saying that Jews are best friends with Jeffrey Epstein, that they're responsible for 9/11. 

And in fact, on Kfir Bibas, who's the one year old Jewish child, someone had written his head is still on, where's the evidence? So I, of course, reported that immediately, no action was taken. It was only after CNN and Fox News had covered the story that Harvard retroactively issue a statement. 

But anyways, the next morning, I get a unprompted unsolicited email from a current Harvard employee who asked me to meet him in a secluded underpass to debate whether Jews were involved in 9/11. I, of course, reported that. 

And then later that night, he posted a video on his social media waving a machete with a picture of my face, saying that he wants to fight and he has some master plan. And as I said, I recorded all of this, I went through all the proper channels, whether it was DEI, whether it was the police, whether it was the Office of Student Life.

To this day, February 27, he is still employed at Harvard. In fact, a friend of mine told me he saw him walking through Harvard Yard just a couple of days ago.

It is inconceivable that any other minority group would be treated the way that Harvard treats its Jewish student body. And that's what makes this lawsuit, unfortunately, so necessary.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

That sounds absolutely horrifying and terrifying for you. I'm so sorry that you're having to deal with that. And that's on social media. Have you also encountered people on campus? Have you had personal encounters as well?

Shabbos Kestenbaum:  

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, I'll just tell you the most recent incident that happened. There is a forum for Harvard students, specifically Harvard Divinity School students, and it's really just become a forum in the last couple of months to bash the Jewish state—It's genocidal, it’s apartheid. And someone had posted a couple of days ago that they were going to organize an event demanding lawmakers pass a ceasefire resolution. 

So I responded and this is the first time I was really involved in this forum for months, I responded saying wouldn't it make more sense to ask Hamas to release all the Jewish babies that they kidnapped and to surrender and end the war and I was kicked out of the forum. 

So there was not space for mainstream Jewish viewpoints unless that Jewish viewpoint is anti-Zionist. Harvard does not value freedom of speech, the free exchange of ideas or intellectual discourse. what it values is a one narrative, one ideology, and the moment you are counter to that you are ostracized, you are bullied and you're isolated.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Nitsan, have you encountered the same resistance to your point of view? Have you been reluctant to share that you’re Jewish or Israeli?

Nitsan Machlis:

I have felt for the first time, uncomfortable with how I share my identity. And whenever I speak in class, either on Israel or my Jewish identity, I think twice about it. And I have friends who have had very difficult experiences in classrooms and have really been caught off guard, that constant feeling that you have to be on guard because you don't know what will be said and how he will reply to it. It's very exhausting. 

But again, what I want to emphasize here is that this isn't the case for everyone. On a personal level, I haven't felt unsafe on a day to day basis, and I have had overwhelmingly positive experiences with my peers in the classroom. At the same time, there's a lot of very upsetting behavior that's happening, like the cartoon we just discussed. But the reason I think it's important to also discuss these stories is because I think that that feeling of isolation can be very dangerous. 

So we need to separate fighting against all the awful things that are happening, but also listening to students who have had positive experiences with their peers who have stepped forward and supported them in this time. I think both from an Israeli and a Jewish perspective, the worst thing that can happen is for us to feel completely isolated from our surroundings.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Nitsan, you are not part of this lawsuit. You have not been targeted in the same way. How are you trying to make a difference and change the climate there?  

Nitsan Machlis:

I will say that my approach has been to first of all work with the administration. And I very much believe in this. I think there is value to challenging the institution from the outside, especially when they have disappointed us on so many levels. But as the chair of the Jewish caucus in the Harvard Kennedy School, we have tried with the other co chairs, to work together with administration and specifically with DEI offices. For me this is one of the most important asks to have DEI offices in Harvard and another campuses understand that religious identities and national identities are part of any policy of inclusivity. 

And personally, I've seen results here, I think there is a greater understanding that these offices should cater to the needs of Jewish students. And I think this is institutionally one of the most important places that we can make things better for students in the long term, and shift the mindset of how administration deals with different identities within the school. 

But this really requires an approach of being willing to work together with administration, even when they have disappointed us. To make the meetings, to speak to the deans, and to come with lists of of demands from our students.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You mentioned working with University officials and leaders who run the DEI programs, there on campus. And I know that there has also been a task force formed to address anti Muslim and anti Arab bias. And both that group and the antisemitism Task Force are being advised by the university's chief diversity and inclusion officer. Until now, have the DEI efforts adequately included Jewish students, or let me just say, have they addressed Jewish students' needs at all?

Nitsan Machlis:  

So pre October 7, not at all, at all. And I found that really shocking, even from having orientation presentations, where we speak about all the different identities in school, and no religious identities would be there. And I think that we had a similar issue with Muslim students in the school who also felt like their religious identity is not something they felt comfortable talking about, or expressing or asking for accommodations. 

And in that sense, I think we should be building bridges with these kinds of student groups and working together because this is a dual issue. So we definitely did not see any of that pre-October 7. And a lot of our work with the DEI Deans has been making them aware that this is part of their toolkit and part of what they should be working on on campus. 

And some of it is really basic stuff like celebrating Jewish holidays when we're celebrating different holidays. So giving that a space on campus, having people know that a lot of the student population are celebrating a holiday right now, building courses around antisemitism, talking about antisemitism in racism classes, clarifying who we can report antisemitism to on campus. 

So these are small milestones. But I think what's important here is the mindset change. And understanding that if we want to talk about being inclusive, then we should be talking about religious identities, too.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Shabbos, there's the strategy of working from within, and there's this strategy of putting pressure from the outside. Do you feel like you kind of maximized used up any energy you had to try to work from within? Or is that in your experience, just not a successful strategy? And how did you decide to put the pressure on from the outside in the form of this lawsuit? 

Shabbos Kestenbaum:  

My mindset from day one was let's work with the administration, let's work from the inside. And in fact, when I was working with my legal team to draft this lawsuit, which took about three months, I was quite emphatic, and quite clear that should things change, I would be willing to drop the lawsuit in a heartbeat. 

You know, I don't want to do this. And I don't want to go to DC. And I don't want to appear on different conferences, telling strangers how bad antisemitism is at Harvard. I want to learn. that's why I came to Harvard. But much like they say about Palestinian leadership, they never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. 

The Harvard faculty, the Harvard administration are the exact same way. They failed time and time again, not only did they fail, but they made the situation untenable, they made the situation so much worse. 

So my attitude in the past month or so has been these things are not amenable, we cannot change it. We have to dismantle it, we have to put pressure, outside pressure.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

What are some of the mistakes that you're seeing in this battle to confront antisemitism?

Nitsan Machlis: 

The whole conversation on anti-Zionism being critical of Israel and antisemitism is a very, very, very complicated conversation. There are no easy answers. I wish I had easy answers. And we shouldn't be having a complicated conversation about it, we should not be having an easy answer to every single case of criticizing Israel is necessarily antisemitic. And when we do that, unfortunately, people take us less seriously. 

Again, it's very complicated conversation. And I think very much of anti semitism is tied to anti-Zionism. And these things are not separate at all. I think we need to be very careful with how we fight antisemitism on campuses. And I think the listeners of this podcast will hopefully be willing to understand that climate is very, very, very complicated. 

I'm very critical of Israel's policies, I was involved in a lot of political activism work, I'm also a Zionist, and I'm a proud Israeli and I will return to Israel to work within the Israeli political system. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Have you taken precautions to stay safe? Have you changed any of your behavior? 

Shabbos Kestenbaum:  

Yeah. So you know, going back to this example of the current Harvard employee who taunted me with a machete, I had private armed security outside my house for three days, I had armed security follow me to synagogue on Friday night, you know, my parents are always calling and checking in on me, they very much want me to leave Cambridge and to come back home. 

And in the lawsuit, we also talked about how there was one instance at Widener library, which is really the heart and soul of Harvard University, where during finals week of the fall semester, there were hundreds of students chanting, globalize the Intifada, Palestine will be Arab, from the river to the sea. And Widener library’s where I like to go. It's where I'm entitled to go as a Harvard student. 

And I, of course, made sure not to, not even go into Widener library, but to change my regular route. So I wouldn't even have to walk across these people. 

Because we already know as we saw in the week after October 7, these protests can get violent, they do get violent, you know, there was an incident of a physical altercation at the business school. So what has Harvard done about it? The answer is nothing. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I'm just curious if your sense is that this climate already existed on campus, and October 7, that just intensified it, or are we just now paying attention to something that has long been there? 

Shabbos Kestenbaum:  

That’s a great question. Well, before October 7, just as one anecdote, my first semester as a Harvard student, actually my first month, with the Palestine Solidarity committee invited Mohamed El Kurd to speak, this was his second time coming to campus. This is someone who said that Jews eat the organs of Palestinians. This is someone who says that the Israeli occupying forces have adopted the ways of Nazi Germany. 

And this is also someone that literally last night lamented on Twitter, that it's such a shame that we can't hijack planes to pursue our cause. I mean, calling him a terrorist sympathizer puts it mildly. 

Harvard has a strong track record, rightly or wrongly, but a strong track record of regulating speech that they find to be harmful to students. And they have a track record of rescinding invitations and even acceptances to students and to speakers in the name of promoting peace and safety for its students. The obvious and only exception is when it comes to Jews. 

We went to the administration, we said this is someone who supports violence against Jewish people in the name of Palestinian resistance. And the answers we got were shrugs on the shoulder, and well, there's nothing we can do about it. The hypocrisy and the double standard is so breathtaking, is so hurtful, is so demeaning. This was my first month at Harvard. 

So to say that this suddenly appeared out of nowhere, really does not encapsulate the pervasive problem of antisemitism at Harvard. And it also encapsulates how Harvard has enabled and in some cases, promoted this type of discourse and behavior amongst students and faculty. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:

Nitsan, you are a graduate student at Harvard’s Kennedy School of public policy and government. Your classmates are learning how to navigate the complexities of policy negotiations and international diplomacy.  Do the conversations there tend to be elevated compared to the general campus discourse? 

Nitsan Machlis:  

I think this is exactly the vacuum that I've been feeling on campus. It took a very long time to be having serious policy conversations about this topic. And this is at the top policy school in the world. So if we're not having policy conversations on a foreign policy issue, the war in Israel and Gaza, then the people who are going to enter that vacuum are going to be bad actors and are going to be extremist activists sometimes, and their voices will be heard to a disproportional extent. 

Now, I'm not saying these conversations aren't happening at all, because eventually people stepped up and some of my more impressive professors were brave enough to step up into that space. But they've been lone actors in a system that as a whole has not led discourse of this kind.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

In other words, they're lone actors. There's not a community, there's not a mass, critical mass that is following in their footsteps. There really are just lone voices.

Nitsan Machlis:  

As students, we've had to push for this. And I think it isn't my role as a student to be asking a policy school to teach me policy.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You're not just Jewish, you're also Israeli. Does that help or hinder your role and your ability to carry on these conversations? I mean, you just said you're very critical of Israeli policies. To me I think that would help right in, in fostering conversations and teaching people that, you know, here are, these are policy conversations.

Nitsan Machlis:  

It's a very difficult point. And I think many times, my Israeli identity goes before me and colors anything I say, no matter what my thoughts are on the government, no matter what my thoughts are on Israeli politics. And that's very upsetting. And that's something that many Israeli students have felt on campus. I also think that we're learning how to have these conversations. And we're learning how to be strategic about the people we speak to, and the way we raise awareness. 

I do my best not to give attention to the extreme people, but to work with moderates. And I think most students at the end of the day are a silent majority, who either are unaware of antisemitism happening on campus or are scared to speak up. 

And working with them can be much more effective, in my opinion, than working with people who are shouting the loudest on the edges of the spectrum. And I can speak for the Israeli community at the Harvard Kennedy School, but that's something we've worked on together as a community, how do we target the majority, and not the people who are making us most upset and who gets the headlines, who are speaking on the margins of the campus discourse? 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Being from Israel I imagine it was incredibly difficult to watch abroad, what was happening in your home country? Do you have family or friends who were directly affected on October 7?

Nitsan Machlis:  

My brother had just finished his military service. He's an officer, he had actually come to the States for a visit and to travel after his service a week before October 7. And he got on a plane on October 8, and had been in Gaza for around three months since. 

And this is actually a crazy story. But in one of the only times that he left Gaza during that time, he called me up and he said Nitsan, what's happening in Harvard. And I found that shocking, that someone who was actually at the frontlines and actually in a war and actually endangering their own life, was asking me what's happening on a campus on the other side of the world. And it's crazy, it really is. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

It speaks to the effect, the emotional impact on the Jewish community at large around the world, what's happening at such a major college campus. I'm also curious what the reaction on campus has been to you having a brother who's serving on the front lines?

Nitsan Machlis:  

That's a good question. And to be honest, that's something I don't feel comfortable sharing with most people in school. And that's a problem. There are people who know and there are people who have been very supportive. But there are many people who I've been concerned, what will they think of me? What will they think of my family? And it's a very difficult environment to navigate.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I’m sure it is. That would be taxing for any college student whose family is fighting in a war anywhere in the world. Not just with this added element. Nitsan, I certainly will keep your family in my prayers. 

Nitsan, Shabbos: thank you both for sharing your difficult but different experiences on Harvard’s campus.

Nitsan Machlis:  

Thank you. 

Shabbos Kestenbaum:  

Thank you for having me. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

If you missed last week's episode, be sure to tune in for my conversation with Julie Fishman Rayman, AJC's, managing director of policy and political affairs on the efforts in Congress to stand in solidarity with Israeli victims of Hamas’ sexual violence and what you can do to make sure the plight of Israeli women is heard.

Two weeks ago at the White House, a group of antisemitism envoys from around the world attended an AJC-convened gathering as part of the efforts of an interagency group created by President Biden to build a national strategy to combat antisemitism.

This week, two of those envoys, senior European antisemitism officials from the EU and Germany join us to discuss that meeting and share how their governments have addressed rising antisemitism.

Katharina von Schnurbein, European Commission Coordinator on Combating Antisemitism and Fostering Jewish Life, and Felix Klein, Federal Government Commissioner for Jewish Life in Germany and the Fight Against Antisemitism, also discuss their experiences fighting Jew-hatred in Europe and their impressions of the state of antisemitism in the United States. Klein is also an alumnus of Project Interchange, an AJC institute that brings global decision-makers to Israel to learn about its reality and complexity for themselves.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

____

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Katharina von Schnurbein, Felix Klein

_____

Show Notes:

Read:

• International Antisemitism Envoys Join AJC-Convened Meeting at White House-

American Jewish Committee (AJC) convened a meeting at the White House of antisemitism envoys from around the world as part of the efforts of an interagency group created by President Biden to build a national strategy to combat antisemitism.

• American Jews Shouldn’t Be Afraid to Be Jewish-

In this Newsweek column, AJC CEO Ted Deutch writes that urgently creating and implementing the first-ever national action plan to effectively combat antisemitism in the U.S. is essential. The safety of Jews and the health of our society are at stake.

• Be Part of the Society-Wide Effort-

AJC’s Call to Action Against Antisemitism in America is a dynamic tool to mobilize and unite all Americans in the fight against antisemitism. Read the Call to Action.  

Watch: 

• How Can Governments Win the Fight Against Antisemitism?-

At AJC Global Forum 2022, Katharina von Schnurbein joined U.S. Special Envoy to Monitor and Combat Antisemitism Deborah Lipstadt to share how American and European governments are responding to the frightening resurgence of antisemitism.

Listen:

• 87 Ways to Fight Antisemitism: Inside the EU’s New Plan to Combat Hate-

When the EU unveiled its first Strategy on Combating Antisemitism and Fostering Jewish Life, a multi-faceted plan that incorporated many recommendations from AJC, Katharina von Schnurbein shared how that strategy is being implemented and what it means for European Jews and the entire Jewish diaspora.

• Women’s History Month: Meet Felice Gaer, Human Rights Champion-

She’s one of the world’s most effective champions of women’s rights, human rights, and democratic values. For Women’s History Month, we speak with Felice Gaer, director of American Jewish Committee’s Jacob Blaustein Institute for the Advancement of Human Rights.

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

In 2017, the Chicago Dyke March ejected Jewish marchers carrying rainbow flags emblazoned with Stars of David. This year, it promoted its upcoming event with a cartoon image showing the burning of Israeli and American flags. To discuss why the Chicago Dyke March has been exhibiting such hostility towards supporters of Israel, we sit down with Ethan Felson, a progressive activist for more than thirty years and Executive Director of A Wider Bridge, a nonprofit that connects American and Israeli LGBTQ communities and works to strengthen LGBTQ inclusion in Israel. 

Then, AJC Miami/Broward County Director Brian Siegal shares his personal reflections on the collapse of the Champlain Towers South building in Surfside, Florida, and how the community has come together in the wake of this immense tragedy.

______

Episode Lineup:

(0:40) Ethan Felson

(16:32) Brian Siegal

(19:19) Manya Brachear Pashman

(22:22) Seffi Kogen

______

Show Notes:

Fill out our audience survey for a chance to win a spot on the show! www.AJC.org/PodcastSurvey

Dani Dayan, the newly appointed chairman of Yad Vashem – Israel's official memorial to the victims of the Holocaust – and former Consul General of Israel in New York, joins this week’s People of the Pod with critical and timely messages for the world, including why remembering the Holocaust is more important than ever and the concerning trend of weaponizing the Holocaust for political purposes.

Then, AJC Director of William Petschek Contemporary Jewish Life Laura Shaw Frank shares her inspiring experience at the Freedom Sunday for Soviet Jews rally 34 years ago and what a unifying moment it was to be in a crowd of over 250,000 people on the National Mall in Washington, D.C. 

_____

Episode Lineup:

(0:40) Dani Dayan

(16:50) Manya Brachear Pashman and Laura Shaw Frank

In this episode of People of the Pod, Ambassador Michael Oren dives into Israel's escalating conflict with Hezbollah, which has turned Israel’s northern border into a war zone and caused 60,000 to remain displaced from their homes. Oren emphasizes Israel’s need to defend itself on multiple fronts, including threats from Hamas, the Houthis, and Iran, warning of the risk of all-out war. He also discusses the formation of the Israel Advocacy Group (IAG) to bolster Israel's media and diplomatic efforts and shares how his vision for Israel’s future, as outlined in 2048: The Rejuvenated State, remains critical post-conflict.

Listen – AJC Podcasts:

• The Forgotten Exodus: 

• Explore the untold stories of Jews from Tunisia, Syria, Yemen, and more.

• People of the Pod: 

• Paris 2024: 2 Proud Jewish Paralympians on How Sports Unites Athletes Amid Antisemitism

• The DNC with AJC: What You Need to Know about the Democratic Party’s Israel Platform

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

__

Transcript of Interview with Michael Oren:

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Michael Oren served as Israel's ambassador to the United States between 2009 and 2013. As ambassador, he was instrumental in securing US support for Israel's defense and upholding Israel's right to security. His current role isn't all that much different. 

After October 7, he launched the Israel Advocacy Group (IAG), which has worked to strengthen diplomatic relations for the Jewish state and support Israelis during wartime. Ambassador Oren is with us now to explain the challenge Israelis are now facing. Ambassador Oren, welcome to People of the Pod.

Michael Oren: 

Good to be with you, Manya.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Ambassador, you are touring the US with residents of Northern Israel who've been displaced by near daily attacks from Hezbollah terrorists across the border with Lebanon. As we speak, Israel is conducting a military operation in Beirut. Can you tell us what is happening and why?

Michael Oren: 

Okay, let me begin by saying that Israel has not taken credit from the pager and walkie talkie attacks Has not. And so we want to avoid that type of symmetry, because on one hand, Hezbollah is very proud of the fact that they're firing hundreds of rockets and hundreds of explosive drones at civilians in Israel. Literally. Israel's not taking that credit. Okay. 

So let's begin with this. October 8, a day after the horrendous Hamas assault on southern Israel. Hezbollah, out of a vowed desire to show solidarity with Hamas, opened fire on Northern Israel. To date, about 10,000 rockets, explosive domes, have been fired at Galilee. It began along the immediate border, some 18 communities along the immediate border, but it creeped downward. Creeped downward now where rockets are falling along the Sea of Galilee, which is in southern Galilee, and moving its way toward Haifa, nd the suburbs of Haifa, moving westward. 

100,000 Israelis have been rendered homeless. 10s of 1000s of acres of farmland, forest land have been incinerated. 1000s of houses have been destroyed, and dozens of people have been wounded and killed, as well. Civilians, as well as military. The entire North has been transformed into a war zone. Cities that you know, like Kiryat Shmona, Metula, are ghost towns today. 

One of the members of our delegation, Her home was rocketed in Metula yesterday. Is the 215th home destroyed by Hezbollah in that once beautiful, beautiful town of Metula. So that's the objective situation. Is it an utterly, utterly unprovoked attack on the land and the people of Israel. And Israel, of course, has to defend itself. 

The great complaint among the people of the north, it is that the state has not done enough to defend the people of the north. And so any actions now taken, including last night, where Israeli warplanes were attacking Hezbollah emplacements and targets, not just in southern Lebanon, but throughout Lebanon, is very much welcomed by the people of the north. So they have yet to see how the state intends to return them and store them to their homes. 

I'll just add one more point that is widely misunderstood in this country. There's a notion that somehow, if a ceasefire is attained with Hamas in Gaza, which is highly, highly unlikely, but if it is attained, then Hassan Nasrallah, the head of Hezbollah, said, he too will accept a ceasefire, but a ceasefire will restore the status quo of October 6. And Israelis simply won't go back to their homes if the situation that obtained on October 6 where Hezbollah was exactly on the opposite side of the fence, no one's going back to communities that are opposite side of the fence, because now we know what terrorists can do to Israelis on the other side of that fence, our side of the fence.

So there is really no alternative but to drive Hezbollah back. It's to drive them back beyond the Litani River, which meanders opposite our northern border, between 13 and 20 kilometers. There's a diplomatic initiative by American Special Envoy Amos Hochstein to try to convince Hezbollah to retroactively implement Resolution 1701, of the Security Council. It's from 200. They called on his Hezbollah to withdraw north of the Litani River. Hezbollah never accepted it. Hezbollah violates it daily, flagrantly. I wish Mr. Hochstein all the best of luck. I don't know what leverage he can bring to bear to convince Hezbollah to implement 1701 but barring that, Israel will have absolutely no choice to push Hezbollah back physically from that fence. 

 Manya Brachear Pashman: 

In fact, returning residents home, to their homes in northern Israel has become a war goal. The cabinet has just announced this week, right? 

Michael Oren: 

Well, it's about time. It's about 11 months too late.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

So I guess, what does that mean? Does that mean that this conflict with Hezbollah or Lebanon could escalate?

Michael Oren: 

Oh, I would expect it would escalate. Yes, and that we have to prepare it for any scenario, including an all out war. Now, an all out war is no small thing. It's a war that's many times more severe than that, with Hamas in the South. First of all, Hezbollah is one of the largest military forces anywhere, not just in the Middle East. It's got upwards of 170,000 rockets hidden under villages, under hundreds of villages. It has a fighting force of terrorists that's three, four times that of Hamas. It has cyber capabilities. And it's not just Hezbollah. It's the Shiite militias that are backed by Iran and in Iraq and Syria, the Huthi rebels in Yemen. We know that they can fire Israel well. And there's Iran itself. Iran, which, on April 14, launched 315 rockets at Israel. 

So the IDF estimate for rocket fire per day in any war with Hezbollah could reach as much as 10,000 rockets a day. And that will overwhelm our multi-tiered anti-missile system. We will require assistance from the United States, and even then, it will be quite a challenge.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

As you mentioned, this is all happening simultaneously with the war against Hamas in Gaza. Yes, Houthis also are firing rockets, one of which, I think at least one reached, or almost reached, central Israel just this past week. And I mean, how many fronts is Israel fighting on right now? And could this escalate? Could, though, that number of fronts grow even more? 

Michael Oren: 

Well, right now we're at about seven fronts, according to the defense Minister's calculation. So what is it? It the North. It is the south. It is the Huthis, very much to the south, but are capable of firing into Tel Aviv. It is the Judean Samaria, the West Bank front, which is very severe indeed. 

So that's just sort of the bottom line of the fronts we're firing. We're also fighting a front against Iran, more distantly, against the Shiite and militias in Iraq and Syria. So a multi, multiple front war. And make no mistake about it, this is an existential struggle for the State of Israel.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

And you said that returning to October 6 or what the status was on October 6 is now not acceptable. I mean, was there a short window of time where that was, what the wish and the hope was? And that has shifted.?

Michael Oren: 

I think it was lost on October 7. So if you were to go to Metula on October 6, you could stick your hand through the fence, and I wouldn't recommend you do this. You could stick your hand through the fence, and you would touch Hezbollah. They're right there. And the people of Matula and other communities along that border simply won't go back under those circumstances. And you can understand why. 

I don't know if you have young children, I don't think you put your children in a house that's looking at Hezbollah across from a fence. Now we know what terrorists can do to Israeli families, civilians, women, babies, who are on the other side of the fence. And a fence is no guarantee against any assault. 

The people from the north also believe that there are still tunnels under that fence that we haven't discovered all of the Hezbollah tunnels. There are people in our delegation from the north who believe that Hezbollah still has tunnels that have not been detected under that fence, because Hamas digs tunnels in sand, Hezbollah digs tunnels in rock, and they're deeper and harder to detect.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

You said that you wondered, if I have small children, I do. I have two small children. We go to well, they're not. They're getting less small by the day. But it made me think of a column that you wrote back in March for The Forward about how Jews are cursed to be a lonely people.

And I actually gave a speech to our synagogue congregation just last week, talking about how I was so grateful to be part of a congregation on October 6, celebrating Simchat Torah when I woke up on October 7, because otherwise I would have felt and my children would have felt so alone. And I am curious where you were on October 7, and how you have combated that loneliness, that lonely feeling.

Michael Oren: 

Hm. Well, I had an unusual experience. On October 5, I was giving a speech in Dallas, Texas, and the speech was interesting, because at the end of my remarks, I told the audience that I believe that Israel would soon be going to war. And everyone gasped, and I'd actually been briefing foreign diplomatic personnel about this for about two weeks. 

And the reason I thought Israel was going to war was because of the divisions within Israeli society, the divisions within American societies, that Iranians were following very, very closely. But the most important point was that the United States was trying to broker a peace agreement between Israel and Saudi Arabia, and as part of that deal, Saudi Arabia was going to get nuclear power.

And my line was that if anybody thought that the Iranians would sit quietly while the Saudis got nuclear power, they were kidding themselves, and the Iranians would start a war. All right, I had other information, but that was the major thrust. So two days later, I was coming back to Israel. I was stopping off at my mother's house in New Jersey, woke up to the messages you never want to receive on your cell phone, which is, are you okay? Are you okay? Are you okay? And learned about this.

Now for many years through the generosity of the Singer Foundation. Whenever there's a national emergency, I'm immediately put on television. So starting on the morning of October 7, I was on CNN, MSNBC throughout the day, called some friends in ElAl and got myself on the first flight out of Newark that night, and landed in a war zone the next morning and went immediately to work. 

So around a small kitchen table in my house, a group of volunteers together formed an emergency NGO called the Israel Advocacy Group, because what can I say, the state wasn't doing a particularly excellent job in defending itself in the media and other forums. And what began as a small sort of a ma and pa operation around the kitchen table has now become the Israel advocacy group, IAG, dealing with international media, mainstream, non mainstream, and with track two diplomacy. 

So track two diplomacy is what we're doing in Washington now by bringing the delegations to the hill. We've had meetings on the hill with both parties, both houses, and today we're in the White House. So we've gone to the White House twice with these delegations. That's tracked two diplomacy and so it's a big undertaking. 

So my way of dealing with the loneliness is certainly joining with other people, especially young people, who are committed to defending Israel in every possible form. I'm very blessed because I'm a member of a community in Jaffa, a kehilla, which is just wonderful and, of course, the family, the family, the family. Tammy, my, my beloved and children and grandchildren, 6.5 and counting. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

You are heading up this Israel advocacy group that's post October 7. But before October 7, you had started a think tank. I don't know if you would call it an advocacy group. I've been calling it a think tank. Called Israel 2048. You also wrote a book titled 2048: The Rejuvenated State. 

It was published in one single volume in English, Hebrew and Arabic, very, very symbolically. And I'm curious if this vision that you laid out for the next century of the Jewish state, is it stalled by all of this?

Michael Oren: 

So first of all, 2048 it was a project that grew out of my time in Knesset, and I was the deputy in the prime minister's office, and sort of realizing that Israel is so bogged down in its daily crises, little do we know what a daily crisis was, that we never really think about our future. And the goal was to envision the Jewish state on its 100th birthday. Our 100th birthday would be 2048, and how can we assure a second successful century? What changes had to be made in the State of Israel? And they're pretty big, far reaching changes. 

And it began as a discussion group online. We had a 2048 seminar at the Hartman Institute with Natan Sharansky for about a year, then covid hit and retreated to the room and wrote this book. It's an 80 page manifesto that covers 22 aspects of Israeli society. Its educational policy, social policy, health policy, foreign policy, America-Israel diaspora relations, of course, the US relations and the peace process.

Certainly the largest section on the peace process and our relationship with Israeli Arabs, the Haredi issue, the ultra orthodox issue, the Bedouin issue. It's all in 80 quick pages. And the idea of the book was to sort of to spur conversation, especially among young people within Israel and in the United States elsewhere in the diaspora. In the way Zionist thinkers used to think about the future Jewish state, starting in the 1880s up to the 1940s. Huge literature on what this Jewish state was going to look like. And we seem to have lost the ability to have that sort of broad discussion about our future. And it was going very, very well, the discussion. 

It was not a think tank. It was actually an anti think tank. I didn't want to produce any papers. I just wanted to have discussions. When the war broke out. Looking back at this book now, it is actually a better seller now than it was before the war, because many of the problems that were revealed by the war were anticipated by the book. And it's actually more crucial now than ever before. 

You know, Manya, I’m often asked, What wars does this war most resemble? Is it the 67 war where we were surrounded by enemies, the 73 war, when we were surprised by our enemies? But truly, the war that most resembles this one is the War of Independence, where we are fighting on multiple fronts, in our neighborhoods, in our communities, and everybody's in the army. And the tremendous, tremendous cost. 

So really, we're in a second Israel war of independence. And that's the bad news. The good news is we get to rebuild afterward the way we rebuilt post 1948. I don't know any other manifesto that sets out the goals that we have to strive if we're going to have a successful Second War of Independence. Certainly, we have to address the Haredi issue. That's not sustainable. 

We have to address the Bedouin issue, you know, the IDF secured the release of one of the hostages several weeks ago, a Bedouin gentleman. It was an extraordinary event, definitely praiseworthy, but that Bedouin had two wives, and had settled illegally on state land, and that sort of it was indicative of the type of problems we face with a Bedouin that no one's addressing. 

But it's also our education system. How can we proceed and a road to some type of better relationship with the Palestinians? How can we maintain unity within Israel, within the Jewish world? Everything from the Kotel to teaching math on a high school level in a Haredi school.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

How dismaying that there are so many wars to choose from for comparison. But I, but I appreciate the one that you the analogy that you've made and the hope that that carries with it. So, Ambassador Oren, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you.

Michael Oren: 

Thank you. Let me say Shana Tova. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Shana Tova. 

Michael Oren: 

I also want to give a special thank you to the American Jewish Committee. Yesterday morning, we through the office under the aegis of the the AJC, our delegation of displaced northerners met with about 20 representatives of the diplomatic community here in Washington, including the German ambassador, the Czech ambassador, the Slovakian ambassador, diplomats from Spain, Italy, and for the first time, this diplomatic community was able to hear firsthand what it is to live under daily Hezbollah rocket and drone fire, to be displaced from their homes, and it was extremely important. We're very, very grateful to AJC.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

Ambassador Oren, thank you so much for joining us.

Michael Oren: 

Thank you.

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

If you missed last week's episode, be sure to tune in for my conversation with two proud Jewish Paralympians on how sports can unite athletes amid antisemitism, which surfaced during the Paris 2024 Olympic Games.

This month, we mark the five-year anniversary of the Pittsburgh Synagogue Shooting at the Tree of Life. On October 27, 2018, 11 worshipers were murdered solely for being Jewish, in the deadliest antisemitic attack in U.S. history.

As the first installment in a four-part series, we take you inside the Tree of Life building before it is demolished in the coming months to make way for a new complex dedicated to Jewish life and combating antisemitism. Hear from Carole Zawatsky, the CEO behind the reimagined Tree of Life, and Eric Lidji, director of the Rauh Jewish Archive, as they explain their mission: to preserve artifacts and memories so that the story is preserved forever. Carole shares her commitment to honoring the victims, and Eric discusses the challenges of documenting an ongoing tragedy. Together, they emphasize the power of bearing witness to history and the healing strength of remembrance.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Eric Lidji, Carole Zawatsky

Show Notes:

Music credits:

• Relent by Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com),  Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0
• Virtual Violin Virtuoso by techtheist is licensed under a Attribution 4.0 International License
• Fire Tree (Violin Version) by Axletree is licensed under a Attribution 4.0 International License.
• Al Kol Eleh (backing track), with Yisrael Lutnick

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Episode Transcript:

Eric Lidji: Pittsburgh definitely is not forgetting. It’s ever present here. There are people who are healing and doing so in ways that, at least from the outside, are remarkable and very inspiring. And there are people who I'm sure have not fully reckoned with it yet.

Carole Zawatsky: It's all too easy to walk away from what's ugly. And we have to remember. We can't walk away.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Five years have gone by since the horrific Shabbat morning at Pittsburgh’s Tree of Life Synagogue, when eleven congregants were gunned down during prayer – volunteers, scholars, neighbors, doing what they always did: joining their Jewish community at shul. 

This is the first installment of a series of episodes throughout the month of October devoted to remembering and honoring the lives lost that day and reflecting on how the deadliest antisemitic attack in American history changed those families, changed us, and changed our country. 

Today, we take you to the Tree of Life building that stands on the corner of Shady and Wilkins Avenues in Pittsburgh’s Squirrel Hill neighborhood to hear from two people in charge of preserving the artifacts and memories of the vibrant Jewish life that unfolded inside those walls until October 27, 2018.

In early September, our producer Atara Lakritz and I visited the Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh’s Squirrel Hill neighborhood. Squirrel Hill, where Jews have settled since the 1920s, is quite literally Mister Rogers’ neighborhood. We were there to interview those touched by the events of October 27. But it didn’t take us long to figure out that everyone there had been affected in some way. 

All along Murray Avenue, in 61C Cafe, at Pinsker’s Judaica Shoppe, at the Giant Eagle supermarket, when we told people why we were there, they all had a story, an acquaintance, a connection. 

Later, walking through the glass doors of the synagogue felt like we were stepping through a portal, traveling back five years, when life stopped, and the reality of the hatred and terror that unfolded there began to haunt every step. 

Atara and I were invited to accompany a final group tour of the building before it closed in order for preparations to begin for the building’s demolition. The tour was painful, but we felt it necessary to share with our listeners. 

As we left the lobby, we were told to take the stairs to the left. The stairs to the right were off limits. Someone had been shot there. 

We were led to a small, dark storage room where chairs had been stacked for guests. A handful of people had hidden there as the shooter continued his rampage, but one man walked out too soon, thinking it was safe. When first responders later came to get the others, they had to step over his body. 

In the kitchen, there were still marks on the wall where the bullets ricocheted when he shot two women hiding underneath a metal cabinet. The calendar on the wall there was still turned to October 2018 with a list of activities that were happening that week posted alongside it. 

And in the Pervin Chapel where seven people died, pews punctured with bullet holes and carpet squares stained with blood were no longer there. No ark either. 

But remarkably, the stained glass windows remained with images and symbols of Jewish contributions to America, the land to which the ancestors of so many worshipers once inside that synagogue had fled to and found safety. Those windows will be carefully removed by the son of the man who first installed them 70 years ago. And they will return, when the reimagined Tree of Life rises again.  

Carole Zawatsky: The tragedy is a Pittsburgh experience. But it's also every Jew’s experience. It shattered for so many of us our sense of security in America. This is our safe haven. This is where we came to.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Carole Zawatsky is the inaugural CEO of the reimagined Tree of Life. Since November 2022, she has overseen the development of a new complex on the hallowed ground: an education center dedicated to ending antisemitism, including a new home for the Holocaust Center of Pittsburgh; a memorial to the lives lost that Shabbat morning; a dedicated synagogue space where the Tree of Life congregation can return.

Carole Zawatsky: What can we build to enrich Jewish life, to remember this tragedy, and to show the world that we as Jews should not be known only by our killers and our haters, we should be known by our joy, our celebrations, our rituals, our resilience.

Manya Brachear Pashman: The founding director of the Maltz Museum in northeast Ohio, Carole has spent the last 30 years developing programs and education around the Holocaust and genocide, and overseeing projects that explore Jewish heritage from a national perspective and through a local lens. She led our tour.

On October 27, 2018, the congregations of Tree of Life, New Light, and Dor Hadash, which all met in separate areas of the large, multi-story building, had just ushered in the new Hebrew year of 5779. Young students at the Hebrew school had written their own personal Ten Commandments that the teachers had hung on the walls of an upstairs classroom.

Carole Zawatsky: Don't egg your neighbor's house, respect your parent. Every one of them said: Thou shalt not murder. Thou shalt not kill. And those 10 commandments that they wrote in their little student handwriting were thumbtacked up on the wall in the very classroom where the gunman was apprehended.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Before the rebuilding of Tree of Life begins, Carole’s no. 1 priority has been preserving the artifacts and remnants that bear witness to what happened. Artifacts include the ark, damaged by bullets, the Torah scrolls, which were remarkably unscathed but for the handles. The list of whose Yahrzeits fell on that day, still on the podium; and, of course, the children’s artwork and the wall behind it.

Carole Zawatsky: In the work happening here, and in my role as the CEO, I constantly ask: ‘Am I doing it right? Am I doing enough?’ And preserving the evidentiary material was incredibly important to me, that we have the physical evidence to bear witness. And as that drywall in the classroom in which the gunman, the murderer, was apprehended, was coming down, I found myself asking: ‘Have I saved enough? Will this story be preserved forever? Have we done everything we can?’

Manya Brachear Pashman: Helping Carole with this Herculean effort, is Eric Lidji, the director of the Rauh Jewish Archive at the Senator John Heinz History Center, an affiliate of the Smithsonian Museum, in downtown Pittsburgh. Eric has been collecting documentation and evidence for the archive since October 28, 2018. 

Painted stones left in memory of the victims, hand-made signs, pamphlets, and prayers from vigils, sermons from interfaith services. But also a pair of tennis shoes, a guitar, a framed leaf from the Raoul Wallenberg Tree planted in Israel, a cross affixed with Stars of David -- all individual expressions of a community-wide anguish.

Eric Lidji: Even before I entered the building, we knew that there were going to be pieces of the building that had historic value. Since late 2018, I've been in the building numerous times, dozens of times, doing work there. And it sort of culminated in this opportunity in early June, where we were allowed to go in and identify pieces of the building that became historic that day, and figure out how to get them out.

Manya Brachear Pashman: This is no simple job for anyone involved, no less for Eric, who is accustomed to handling archival materials from generations past, not the present.

Eric Lidji: It’s hard for me to disentangle the work of pulling these things out of the building with the knowledge that these families that I've come to know and love, that this is sort of directly related to their loved ones passing.

Pittsburgh definitely is not forgetting, it’s ever present here. There are people who are healing and doing so in ways that, at least from the outside, are remarkable and very inspiring. And there are people who, I'm sure, have not fully reckoned with it yet. 

The stories that we're used to telling at the archive, they move much slower. You know, when you get records from 75 or 100 years ago, that's in motion too, but it's moving very slowly. And you can kind of sit there and watch it, and understand it. And get some sense of what it might mean. But when you're living through something, it's changing constantly, all around you. And it's responding to things in the world. And it's responding to people's internal resilience and their ability to grow.

When I look out at the community, I see a lot of different stories. People are in a lot of different places. And it's going to be different on a month like this, where we're saying Yizkor. And it's going to be different in the early stages of the trial versus the late stages of the trial. It's assimilated into our lives now, it's a part of our lives.

Manya Brachear Pashman: In 2019, Eric and journalist Beth Kissileff assembled an anthology of raw reflections by local writers about the Tree of Life massacre. It included only one essay by someone inside the building that day: Beth’s husband, Rabbi Jonathan Perlman of New Light. Eric also contributed his own essay. He wrote: “I have no special insight into why this attack happened, or why it happened here. I don’t know what would have prevented it from happening here or what would prevent it from happening again somewhere else. I don’t understand the depth of my sorrow or the vast sorrow of others.

I asked him if four years later he would still write those words.

Eric Lidji: I feel the same way. You know, there's a second half to that paragraph, which is that, I do have the materials and I can describe those. The premise of an archive is that at some point, we'll all be gone. And when we're all gone, our things are what speak for us. And at the moment, there's a lot of witnesses here, emotional witnesses, I mean, who can testify to what this means. 

But there's going to come a time where they won't be there. And our job, I say our, I mean everybody's, our job in the present is to document our experience. So that when we're not here anymore, people in the future have the opportunity to have access to the intensity of the feelings that we had. That ultimately is how you prevent complacency. And so I don't claim any, I don't understand anything in the present. But I do understand the records. And I hope that we're being a good steward and custodian of them so that in the future, people have the opportunity to have access to real human feeling and so that they can really understand what this experience was like for people who were alive today.

Manya Brachear Pashman: The Rauh Jewish Archive has collected and preserved thousands of artifacts and documents, but no physical or intellectual access has been granted yet. Cautious care has been taken to make sure families and survivors are ready and know what’s involved in making the materials available to the public. Once that happens, a trove of electronic materials will be uploaded to the newly launched October 27 Archive, which will become the public face of the collection. The electronic catalog will help individuals, schools, and institutions such as Tree of Life to tell the story they’re trying to tell. 

Carole Zawatsky: We're the only generation to bear witness to this. The next generation will not bear witness. Their children will not bear witness. We have a moral obligation to ensure that these lives are remembered and memorialized, and that we as Jews and as citizens of this earth remember what hate looks like and work toward a better world. It's all too easy to walk away from what's ugly. And we have to remember. We can't walk away.

Manya Brachear Pashman: The Tree of Life building is now a shell of what it once was. The stained glass windows will soon be removed for safekeeping until the new building is ready to welcome them back. As the demolition crews arrive to remove what’s left, Carole’s focus has shifted.

Carole Zawatsky: Our focus now is truly on working with our architect, working with the exhibition designer, and forming a new institution. This is an incredibly special moment for us, as we come together and continue to crystallize our mission, our vision, and form this new institution that will be a significant part of the Pittsburgh community, along with the national community.

Manya Brachear Pashman: The architect for the project, Daniel Libeskind, a son of Holocaust survivors who is renowned for his redesign of the new World Trade Center site, has described the spiritual center of the Tree of Life as a Path of Light, which connects and organizes the public, educational, and celebratory spaces.

Carole Zawatsky: We can never as Jews allow ourselves to be defined by our killers. And I'm delighted to be working with Daniel as our architect and his concept of bringing light into the darkness. Vayehi or, let there be light. We have to bring light back to the corner of Shady and Wilkins. And side by side with tragedy, as we have done throughout all of Jewish history, is also celebration. To have baby namings and B’nai Mitzvot. Celebrate Shabbat and celebrate holidays side by side. That this is the most Jewish thing we can do. When the temples were destroyed in Jerusalem, what did we do? We recreate. And that is the strength and resilience of the Jewish people.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Carole also continues to build a multifaith donor base, comprised of foundations and individuals from Pittsburgh and across the country, to raise the $75 million needed to make the reimagination a reality, ideally by 2025. The reasons why donors give vary, but in most cases they’re deeply personal.

Carole Zawatsky: The events of 10/27 are personal for everyone. For those people who tell us: I heard the gunshots from my kitchen. I was with my children. From people across the country who experienced a sense of loss of safety. To non-Jews who say: I have to have something to tell my children why some people don't like their friends. What did I do? How did I help be a part of the solution?

Manya Brachear Pashman: For generations, the Jewish people have confronted antisemitism in its many forms. But through it all, the Jewish calendar continues to guide the community through celebrations of life and beauty and wonder. Carole describes it as the bitter and the sweet. 

Carole Zawatsky: I've had on occasion, a Rabbi, a funder: ‘How are you doing? How do you get through this?’ And for me, there's often a soundtrack in my head. And one of my favorite Hebrew songs is “Al Kol Eleh,” and through the bitter and the sweet. To me, it is the definition of Judaism. And it's the definition of what we're doing.

Manya Brachear Pashman: Do you mind sharing a bit of that song with us now? 

Carole Zawatsky: 

Al hadvash ve'al ha'okets
Al hamar vehamatok
Al biteynu hatinoket shmor eyli hatov

Al kol eleh, al kol eleh.

Manya Brachear Pashman: This podcast is dedicated to the 11 lives lost on October 27, 2018:

Joyce Fienberg, 

Richard Gottfried, 

Rose Mallinger, 

Jerry Rabinowitz, 

Cecil Rosenthal, 

David Rosenthal, 

Bernice Simon, 

Sylvan Simon, 

Daniel Stein, 

Melvin Wax, 

Irving Younger. 

May their memories be for a blessing.

Last weekend, the International Criminal Court at The Hague determined that it has jurisdiction in the West Bank and Gaza, taking a major step toward prosecuting Israelis for alleged war crimes. To help us unpack what’s been happening and what it means for Israel, we’re joined by Barak Ravid, Contributing Correspondent for Axios and Diplomatic Correspondent for Walla News.

Then we hear from AJC Chief Innovation Officer Belle Yoeli on the power of song during the pandemic, Manya Brachear Pashman on how Israel expects the unexpected, and Seffi Kogen on how snow is affecting both the United States and Israel. 

 _____

Episode Lineup: 

(00:40) Barak Ravid

(17:22) Belle Etra Yoeli

(19:26) Manya Brachear Pashman

(22:12) Seffi Kogen

_____

Show Notes:

Episode Transcript

Israeli-American Comedian Modi Rosenfeld, who took part in the inaugural AJC’s Voices Against Antisemitism Campaign, just-released a stand-up comedy special, Know Your Audience, which reflects a principle he has always subscribed to. But what happens when you know your audience is suffering a trauma like no other? Listen to this conversation with Modi, who was in Israel on October 7, on how he jokes about antisemitism and what he sees as his mission in this difficult moment: helping the Jewish community laugh again.

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Modi Rosenfeld

Show Notes:

Learn more:

• AJC's Voices Against Antisemitism: Meet the Celebrities Standing Up for the Jewish People and Israel

• modilive.com
  

Photo Credits:

• John Cafaro

Credits – Standup Clips:

• On Antisemitism

• Jewish Boyfriend

Listen – People of the Pod on the Israel-Hamas War:

• A Look Back: AJC’s Award-Winning “Remembering Pittsburgh” Series

• Jewish College Student Leaders Share Their Blueprint for Combating Antisemitism

• Matisyahu’s Message to His Fellow Jews and to the Israel Haters Trying to Cancel Him

• Unheard, Until Now: How Israeli Women Are Powering Israel’s Resilience

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Transcript of Episode with Modi:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Comedian Modi Rosenfeld, known by his fans as simply Modi, is nearing the end of a live national tour, co-hosts his own podcast, and he recently released his first televised stand-up comedy special titled Know Your Audience. It’s a principle the Israeli-American comedian has always subscribed to. But what happens when you know your audience is suffering a trauma like no other. Here with us to talk about how we can and why we should laugh again is Modi Rosenfeld. 

Modi, welcome to People of the Pod.

Modi:  

Hi, People of the Pod.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You were born in Tel Aviv and grew up on Long Island. Tell us how you found your way to comedy. 

Modi:  

I was actually just doing investment banking. And I used to imitate the secretaries. And my friends said this is really funny, you should do it on stage. And they set up an open mic night. And that was about 30 something years ago. And that's how the comedy began.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

The special that I mentioned was filmed nearly a year ago. It was filmed before the Hamas terrorist attack and the war. You talk about COVID, you talk about marrying your millennial husband, you talk about Shabbat elevators. I'm curious if you do feel like the material still resonates in the current climate? 

Modi:  

Ever since October 7, I've been doing my shows and not mentioning the war itself. Until the very end where I sing Hatikva with the audience. I feel like the audience needs a moment to just laugh and not think about the war. And not think about what's happening in Israel and just have a laugh about being Jewish, being Jewish, about non-Jewish people. 

Sometimes I tell the story about how I was October 7, while I was in Israel. And then sing Hatikva with the audience, people seem to, they're very touched and moved by it. And it reminds them, now, let's just remember where our hearts and where our prayers and where our thoughts are.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So let's talk about where you were on October 7.

Modi:  

The war began at the end of the holiday of Sukkot and I was in Israel. I had six shows, sold out shows in Israel that were absolutely amazing. One of the highlights of my career. Thursday was the last show. Friday we were there for Shabbat and Saturday we were scheduled to fly out to Paris to do four shows there. And obviously Saturday morning, the alarms went off and the bombs went off. 

We were staying at the Setai Hotel, which is in Yafo, the Arab part of Tel Aviv. Bruno Mars was also staying at the hotel. He had three concerts in Israel and at 12 in the afternoon we saw them whisk him away to a private airplane to be taken out of Israel. 

And I said to Leo, my husband, I said Thank God they got put on Mars out of the hotel. He said why? I said because if a bomb hits this hotel and me and Bruno Mars die, I would get zero press coverage. 

And so that was you know, something light in the day, but it was a very, very stressful, scary day for everybody. We were on a scheduled flight to go to Paris. And it had a four hour delay. And we finally took off and got to Paris. And then we had to make a decision. Do we do these shows? Because the war was so fresh, people were just learning about what's happening and watching it on their phones. But the sold out shows were full. And that's when I began to do Hatikvah at the end of the shows, and I've been doing it ever since.

You know, we just had an hour and 20 minutes of laughter, they just had the best time. We were all laughing. And then you just focus again, you know, yeah, we're laughing. But in Israel, there's a whole different experience happening. And even though in Israel now, the comedians there are also performing and doing shows. You've got to find a respite from being in the war.

Because we are, you know, everybody's on their phones, you’re 24 hours in the war, receiving news and footage and all kinds of information. And then you finally get to just take a few minutes to laugh.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

When you said that you were actually an investment banker, that you found comedy kind of as a career later on, but what role did humor and comedy play in your upbringing, in your family life, your childhood?

Modi:  

Only later on in life that I realized that my father more than all is a very funny person, just by having no editing skills. I never was a class clown. I was always funny with friends, but you know, when you're a table comic, and you're a real comic it’s two different things. 

If you can be funny with your friends at a table, you know your audience, you know everybody at the table, you know what they've gone through, you know what we all know that they went through. And so it's easier to get a joke out. When you're on stage, you don't know everybody, and you don't know what they've all been through, or how they know each other. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So how do you kind of unite your audience? How do you try to kind of find that common denominator?

Modi: 

People are kind of seeing the Jewish world through my eyes, through the eyes of a Jewish person. And they learn things, even though sometimes it gets a little specific, I always translate. My goal in comedy is to make people happy, is to bring laughter into the world, which I call Moshiach Energy.

When you're standing in front of an audience of 500 to 1500 to 2000 people and you see them all laughing together. For me, that's Moshiach Energy. 

How I pictured the world would be when Moshiach is here. You know, the Messianic era, just people just happy, united, laughing, not arguing. And even though you can create that for an hour and a half, you wish you could create it for 24/7.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So how else have you adjusted your live shows to reflect the current situation in addition to adding the anthem? Do you talk about antisemitism? 

Modi:  

I was always talking about antisemitism, not as a lecture, not as a type of Noa Tishby, but more as a comedian. Here's what's happening, here's how it's funny. You're bringing light to it, but you’re bringing it with punch lines that are appropriate. And this was before the war, it's in my special, it’s before the war. 

I don't know if you remember there was a politician in Turkey that stood up and screamed that Allah was going to kill all the Jews and destroy Israel. And then he drops, has a heart attack. I mean, the jokes sometimes just write themselves. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

A few weeks ago, we spoke with musician Matisyahu, who also has been on a national tour. He has encountered protests at most of his concerts, actually. And some concerts have even been canceled because of security concerns. Have you encountered any of that?

Modi:  

In general to answer that, I would say not in the form he's had. We've had a lot of security at our shows, especially the European shows. Since the war I’ve performed in Berlin, Dusseldorf, Frankfurt, Vienna, Brussels, Amsterdam. I call it the Reparations Tour. 

And we've had an enormous amount of security both from hired security and local police and guards from the city. Our last show in Paris, we had four shows in Paris, the fourth one, the police asked us to cancel because there was a huge pro-Palestinian riot across the street. 

And the reason I stay riot and not protest is because it was unauthorized, and they were out of control. They had tear gas thrown in there. And that was one of the incidences.

In Brussels there was a mixup in people knowing that the security would be there. So we lost about 100 people that were going to come to the show. So the show went from 900 people to 800 people. That's the worst that's happened.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And did you indeed cancel that fourth Paris show because of the riot?

Modi:  

The Paris police were so wonderful with providing security for all the other three shows, when they asked us to cancel that show, we listened to them, and we did it. And we actually moved it to the following day to a matinee. 

But they said this is not going to be a good idea for this insane amount of, that kind of protest to be–it was catty corner across from where our theater was. 

It was the Republic Square, which our theater was at the Apollo, which was you can see it. And so they said it's not a good idea to have Jews walking into a theater at that moment.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Makes sense. Was it a coincidence that it was that it was located there? Or was it connected to your show in any way?

Modi:  

No, no, no–the Republic Square is, I guess, an iconic place to do something like that. My theater happened to have been across the street from it.

This was the Thursday after the Saturday, which was less than a week. Our first show in Paris was on Monday after the Saturday of the beginning of the war. So you couldn't understand how fresh this was. 

All the news was coming in. Everybody was finding out exactly what was going on. We didn't have all the information, we had no idea about people that were locked in bomb shelters and people that were missing, they had no idea if they were killed or kidnapped and then just doing comedy there you know, literally I'm in the back of the theater looking at people watching their phones, trying to get information on what's happening on the war and then the lights go down and the comedy starts.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

How have you been affected by the war?

Modi:  

We have family in Israel that are affected by just being in Israel and the change in their lifestyles that happened. Directly, we have family that their their kids are in Gaza. Ellie Beer from United Hatzalah is a close friend of mine, his son is fighting in Gaza. So when I speak to Ellie, I'm like, how's your kid doing? 

When you're in Israel, you speak to people, it's like one degree of separation between you and anybody that's truly affected by the war. 

When we did the 100th episode of my podcast at the 92nd Street Y, my podcast, which is called And Here's Modi. I'm so used to performing at fundraisers and charities where they show a movie of something horrible, and then they bring me out, and they go, and here's Modi:. And here I am the Monday after the war, doing a show. 

We did a Q&A with the audiences, a pre Q&A, sent questions in, and everybody kept asking who would you want as a guest on the podcast and I said, Omer Shem Tov, which is one of the hostages. His photo for some reason I see it everywhere. And I wish he could be in front of me at the podcast and not in a tunnel somewhere being held hostage.

I truly go to bed every night thinking I'm gonna wake up. When I open my phone up, it's gonna say today, all hostages were released, ceasefire has begun. And there will be an end to this soon.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I think that that is what we all pray for, and hope to wake up to every morning. I’m curious if you've returned to Israel since October 7, I know you've been on tour, traveling a lot, but have you had a chance?

Modi:  

I have been in every Jewish community from California to Florida to New York to Chicago to everywhere, with the tour. And again, it's, I think, for me, that's more important than being in Israel, because I'm connecting with these communities who are not in Israel, and bringing them a little bit of unity. 

The community gets together, you see people –for some reason, all our shows are starting a little late, everybody just sees each other in the lobby and like, Hi, how are you? Good to see you. And then they come into the show. 

I think that's more important for me to be doing that than running around Israel, saying how ridiculous this war is. Everybody's doing what they can do. And I'll be in Israel in June, and I'll be doing a show in Yerushalayim, and then I'll be back there in September doing a larger show in Tel Aviv and doing whatever I can do to help there.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You often interact with audience members in your show. Have you had any interesting encounters with individuals in your audience? Especially since October 7?

Modi:  

I'm not one of those comics who does the where are you from, what do you do and make a whole hour about trying to get something funny out of that. That's totally not my style. I do ask if anybody's not Jewish and this way I know–if you see my comedy special you see there's an extra layer of the joke. Me translating it to the person who's not Jewish. 

I will tell you in that aspect, beautiful things have happened. People who are let's say in an intermarriage or even converted to Judaism come up to me afterwards and say, Wow, I never felt so welcomed and accepted and feel a part of the tribe and they tell me their story about how they ended up in the Jewish world.

Like my husband, who was born Catholic. And now he is coordinating with your organization, with every other UJA, JJJ, JJC, JJABC, JABC JJBC. You know, and he is on the phone speaking to people about a motzei shabbos show, a pre-shabbos show, after yuntif, before yuntif. 

He's coordinating with the Jewish world to make sure that they're laughing. And it's an amazing– that's one of the nicest things that I've been seeing. People who ended up in the Jewish community that weren't Jewish, feel so welcome from the show.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

What makes you proud to be Jewish, Modi?

Modi:  

What makes me proud to be Jewish is, I just think that the contribution of Jews to the world is significantly larger than the size of the people that we are. And I talk about that now in the new part of my show, you know, how just everywhere you go, whether something to do with medicine, education, culture, there's always a Jewish name on the building. A part of being Jewish is not only helping the Jews in the community, it's helping the community. So not just creating something–the Lubavitcher Rebbe always spoke about that, whatever you are in the community, don't just help the Jews there, help the community in general. 

And you see that, you know. You go to any hospital, any museum, and you just see the Goldberg Pavilion, you see the Horowitz Wing, and they just give and help create all of that. In comparison to the size that we are in the world, we do a lot more. And something, that makes me proud.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I think that you're absolutely right. And I think that your contribution of comedy and humor, and laughter, especially at a time like this is really so appreciated.

Modi:  

You can bring humor into the world by, I always say: be the friend that brings their friends to the comedy show. If you see me coming to a theater near you, another comedian, coming to a theater, buy a few tickets. By the time the comic gets there, you'll see how all your friends are looking for tickets, and they're gonna want to have a good night of laughter. 

And now you can just make a night at your house, you can put my special on the TV and have a bunch of friends watching and make an evening of it, and make sure to send it and make sure that people who can't get to a show like the elderly and your parents, grandparents that don't have a way to get to a show or don't know how to set up Amazon or go to my website, help them, sit with them. Watch the comedy show with them. That's Moshiach energy.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Well, thank you so much, Modi.

Modi:  

Thank you.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Last week, we re-aired excerpts from our award-winning series Remembering Pittsburgh, which marked five years since the 2018 shooting at the Tree of Life synagogue. 

Next week, one of the guests in that series returns. Marnie Fienberg founded 2ForSeder, an initiative to honor her mother-in-law Joyce who was one of the 11 victims murdered inside Tree of Life. 

Ahead of Passover, Marnie will share how inviting newcomers to our Seder table can be a powerful way to push back against antisemitism.

Israel’s right to self-defense and security, governance in Gaza, the Iranian regime and its network of terror, the Jewish state’s relationship with Arab countries in the Gulf, and much more were among the topics of discussion at an AJC-convened panel discussion at the 2024 Republican National Convention in Milwaukee. Listen to an excerpt of the panel, moderated by AJC’s Chief Policy Officer and the head of AJC’s Center for a New Middle East, Jason Isaacson, along with policy experts Dr. Ken Weinstein, Kirsten Fontenrose, and Rich Goldberg.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. AJC is a nonpartisan, 501(c)3 nonprofit organization. AJC does not endorse or oppose political parties or candidates.

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Jason Isaacson, Ken Weinstein, Kirsten Fontenrose, Rich Goldberg

Show Notes:

Watch:

• Israel and the Path to Peace - AJC at the Republican National Convention

Listen – People of the Pod:

• Europe at the Ballot Box: Insights and Impact on Jewish Communities and Beyond

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Transcript of Panel with Jason Isaacson, Ken Weinstein, Kirsten Fontenrose, and Rich Goldberg:

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

America’s political parties are kicking off the 2024 convention season, starting this week with the Republican National Convention in Milwaukee. AJC was on the sidelines of the RNC, with a live program titled Israel and the Path to Peace, moderated by AJC's chief policy officer, Jason Isaacson. Jason is also the head of AJC's recently launched Center for A New Middle East. 

Joining Jason was Dr. Ken Weinstein, former longtime CEO of the Hudson Institute and the Walter P. Stern Distinguished Fellow at Hudson;  Kirsten Fontenrose, the President of Red Six Solutions and Senior Director of Gulf Affairs in the National Security Council under President Trump; and Rich Goldberg, Senior Adviser at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies and Director of Countering Iranian Weapons of Mass Destruction for the National Security Council, under President Trump. 

Just a reminder: AJC is a 501(c)3 nonpartisan organization and neither supports nor opposes candidates for elective office. A similar program will be offered at the Democratic National Convention in Chicago later this summer. Now onto today’s episode: an excerpt from AJC’s convention program.

Jason Isaacson:  

Let me begin by reading to you a couple of passages from the Republican platform, which was adopted yesterday at the Republican National Convention. This is what it said about Israel. Quote, We will stand with Israel and seek peace in the Middle East, we will rebuild our alliance network in the region to ensure a future of peace, stability and prosperity. And then there was, as you may recall, for the Republican platform, his list of 20 promises. And it's described as 20 promises that we will accomplish very quickly when we win the White House and Republican majorities in the House and Senate. 

And number eight, on that list of 20 promises is the following, quote: restore peace in Europe and in the Middle East. So let's drill down with our panelists on those two statements in January 2025. That's more than six months away. It may be that the Israel Hamas war will be won over by them, and perhaps whatever conflict is so close to boiling over between Israel and Hezbollah, that that might not any longer be the case, might have boiled over, might be a thing of the past. 

But let's say for the sake of argument, that hostilities are in fact, continuing, and let's assume that the Republican Party is victorious this fall. What are you expecting the Trump administration to do to, quote restore peace in the Middle East and to accomplish that, quote, very quickly. And let me begin Kirsten, with you.

Kirsten Fontenrose:  

Great, thanks so much for having us. All of us like to nerd out about these kinds of topics all the time when we're just grateful that there are other people who are as interested. What I expect to see in America is a revived peace plan. So you all remember the deal of the century, the vision for peace, we will see that come back. If there's a second Trump administration. Not in isolation, it will be part of a larger context. 

That will also include assurances about Israel security and governance for Gaza and the like. Why have we not seen this yet? Because no one's asked the Trump team. But that will come back and you will see that. There's an expectation, whether it's naive or not, which we'll see, that there will be a greater receptiveness among the Palestinian population for an economic plan that offers improvements in livelihood after this conflict. 

If there is a marginalized Hamas, there'll be more movement in this space for reviving these kinds of ideas. So we will definitely see a revived peace plan, you won't see less attention on this issue, you'll see very top level attention on the issue. You're also going to see, I think gloves off with the Houthis in the Red Sea.

The US military has been very careful to make sure that all of our strikes so far had been from a defensive perspective. But you will see, I believe, because the world has not criticized any of these strikes, I think you're gonna see more latitude there. More room for movement for preemptive striking, for instance, because the perception is that for the whole world, this shipping interception problem is just out of hand. So I think we'll see more latitude there. And we'll see gloves come off a bit there. 

And then I think you're gonna see some tough talk, frankly, with Prime Minister Netanyahu. President Trump has watched the US be yanked around a bit by the current Israeli government. 

And I think you're going to see less tolerance for that recognition that Israel is a sovereign country, but more of an attempt to say the US is the superpower here, and we will be leading the ideas from hence. If we're expected to play a role, we will be leading in that role. What you will see, however, will be interesting to watch as there is division among Trump advisors about a two state solution. So you'll see that be debated out.

Jason Isaacson:  

Thank you for that. Ken, let me ask you, restoring peace in the Middle East and Europe and doing it very quickly, you've had a very broad focus on a whole range of foreign policy issues at the Hudson Institute and before and since. Tell me how you see that playing out under a second Trump administration?

Ken Weinstein:  

I'd say first of all, I think President Trump came to the conclusion early on, in his first term, he came in remember, talking about the deal of the century with you know, this peace agreement, he was booed at the Republican Jewish Committees event when he was a candidate. 

And he quickly came into office and understood he could not trust Mahmoud Abbas, because of the incitement to terror by the Palestinian Authority and the tensions that were given out, and the pay for slay efforts that the Palestinian Authority has. Whereby people who kill Jews, kill Americans, were getting Palestinian Authority pensions in prisons, for their families and the like. 

And so, Trump quickly came to understand that the challenge in the peace process wasn't bringing Israel and the Palestinians together, it was that the peace process itself was misconstrued. The peace process was being used by Middle Eastern governments, in particular, the Iranians, but also the Palestinians as a means to put leverage on Israel, exercise leverage on Israel, by a bunch of people who wanted to see the end of Israel's existence. And Trump quickly reversed that equation. 

He understood that the best way to move forward was to remove items from the table such as moving the embassy to Jerusalem, which didn't have any of the backlash that John Kerry and others predicted would happen. And he quickly understood the best way to move things forward was to put pressure on the Palestinians. 

Trump's a real estate guy. And so he understands leverage, he understands how to put pressure forth, and how to deter. I think we're going to see much more of that moving forward. We're not going to have a vice president of the United States who's going to get up and say, the Israelis can't evacuate Rafah, it's going to lead to 10s of 1000s of deaths. 

And here I actually disagree slightly, I think Trump will actually give the Israelis the latitude they need to finish the mission, which is to destroy Hamas, and eventually bring about a transformation in Gaza, with the assistance of the Saudis. Who were absolutely critical in de-radicalizing Gaza, they have done it successfully themselves, as has the UAE.

And so I think we're going to look much more at a regional approach on these issues. Obviously, Iran is going to be, to borrow a term from Joe Biden, President Biden, in the crosshairs of the Trump administration, as they were before. You're gonna see massive sanctions again, we're gonna get them, we're gonna enforce those sanctions. And Rich can talk to this stuff far more deeply than I ever could. 

And you're gonna have the Iranians on the run so that they don't feel that they can work with Hamas or work with Hezbollah, to do more damage to Israel. And already we're seeing a deterrent effect on the Northern Front. And also with regard to Hamas. 

Because with regard to Hamas, we see that the fear of a Trump administration is leading to a greater willingness to negotiate with Israel. And on the northern front, I think it's less likely that the Israelis will take dramatic action before the US election, knowing that they will not be reined in by an administration that is somehow searching for a delusion of peace with Hezbollah and with Lebanon.

Jason Isaacson:  

What about peace in Europe? Is is that something that you see, that you can envision under a Trump administration?

Ken Weinstein:  

First, let me say something with regard to Europe and the Middle East. I think that the Trump administration, the Trump team has been infuriated by this notion of enforcing this ridiculous ICC policy with regard to Israel and those who threatened to arrest Netanyahu. I think you're going to see in places particularly, I can just think of the kinds of actions they'll take in Germany. 

I think you can expect individual sanctions on the people who were behind Nord Stream as a sign to not dare mess with Netanyahu, period. And you'll see other actions like that. I know the Spanish ambassadors here with regard to Spain with that we will be taking numbers, as Nikki Haley did so effectively at the UN, and as the Biden team does not. 

So with regard to Europe. Look, I think the situation with regard to Ukraine, as President Trump understands it, I think, Trump, you have to understand he comes to this. He's not a policy person. He thinks that policy people like the three of us, four us up here, we lack creativity, we have a sense the policy options run from the letter L or P to the letter Q or R. And in fact, for Trump, they run from A to Z. And so that meant fire and fury in Pyongyang, but it meant eventually potentially beachfront condominiums in North Korea and an economic vitality to North Korea, if it gave up its nuclear program.

With regard to Iran, it was maximum pressure, but it was the new Iran deal that got rid of the nuclear program that got rid of the missile program that got rid of regional activities, and that internally reshaped Iran, and led to a new relationship with Iran, with not only the region but the rest of the world. And with China, it was massive tariffs on China, but a new trade deal in the phase one that was gonna get rid of intellectual property stuff, which was at the core of what President Trump saw correctly as the engine of the Chinese economy, and the engine of the China 2025 program. So I'd say with regard to Ukraine, the President is looking at options that will, as he himself has said, he would tell the, you know, the Ukrainians on day one, you've got to, you know, we've got to end the fighting, you would tell Putin, if you don't end the fighting, we're gonna arm the shit out of Ukraine, pardon my French, as he said something along those lines. And I think what we'll see at the end of the day, is a massive program to guarantee Ukrainian security, that is going to take massive security guarantees.

But the Europeans are going to have to step up and step up in a very serious way. And we've seen since the announcement of the JD Vance nomination are ready to reaction in Europe, the Europeans, you know, have to understand they're not gonna be able to backchannel they’re not going to be able to figure out some way out of this.

They're gonna have to be big providers of security guarantees, we will do the same for the Ukrainians as well, but Europe has to take up a big portion of it. And Trump does not, he is not Joe Biden, he's not going to cut and run, as in Afghanistan, he doesn't want to be humiliated on the stage, he understands deterrence, he's going to send a very clear signal to the Russians, as he did to the Taliban.

When they were talking about when they were negotiating with the Taliban, Trump was on a video call once with the Taliban leader, and said, I want to make this very clear, you're not to strike at any of our people. And if you do, and hit the button on Play, and he showed a video of I think, the Taliban leader's kid leaving their house to say we're watching you every moment, and we will take care of you. And  there'll be some kind of a version of that with regard to Putin, that's going to be very clear.

He was very blunt with Putin behind closed doors, from the White House in particular. And I think there was a good reason why Putin didn't go into Ukraine during Trump's term. And so I think that there's going to be some kind of a square in the circle solution that's going to have to come together. And I've been telling European foreign and defense ministers for the last few months, think about this now, how to do it, how to implement it. 

Jason Isaacson:  

Ken, thank you so much. Rich, let me turn to you. We've been talking about Iran, and you are an expert on Iran. It happened for years. I didn't see a reference to Iran and the Republican platform. But of course, we know, former President Trump's record on Iran. And Ken has been talking about that. Should he return to the White House next January, what do you foresee on this front to return to maximum pressure, or something more kinetic? And what is your sense of our regional strategic partners priorities? Are our friends in the Gulf hoping for a decisive showdown with Iran? Or are they sufficiently risk averse that they prefer a less confrontational approach? What do you think?

Rich Goldberg:  

I think if you look at the top lines, right, and you compare the policy, the recipe, if you will, under the Trump administration: maximum pressure on Iran, maximum support for Israel gets you peace, gets you deterrence. And when you flip the narrative and you go to maximum deference to Iran and pressure on Israel, you get conflict in the Middle East. It's not disconnected from what Ken's just talking about in other regions of the world as well, whether in Europe, whether you're in the Indo-Pacific.

This comes down to the ability to restore American deterrence. And then you have options. There are a lot of genies that are out of the bottle due to the last three and a half years. Iran today and its nuclear program is at the one yard line of nuclear weapons thresholds. They were not there four years ago. In fact, after the killing of Soleimani, in early 2020, the rest of the year the Iranians never escalated the nuclear program again.

They waited until January of 2021. And that's when they started jumping to 20% high enriched uranium. And then they saw nothing's happening to us. So they went to 60% high enriched uranium. They started installing all the advanced centrifuges, they've advanced, so far accelerated to this incredible capacity to produce a dozen nuclear weapons in just a couple of months if they so chose. Plus Intel now coming in that the administration is trying to downplay work on weaponization. There's a lot of genies out of the bottle here that Donald Trump's going to have to try to put back into the bottle. 

And that will not be easy. But the formula remains correct. Restore deterrence, have maximum pressure and isolation on the Iranian regime and provide support to your allies. Now, the Gulf Arabs, by the way, the Saudis, the Emiratis, they've made some strategic decisions due to the policies that they saw, sustained by Joe Biden. They've cut deals with the Iranians and sort of cut their own JCPOA. with Iran with the Houthis. I'm not sure they're going to be on board for what's coming next. And they need to make some preparations for the return of a Trump administration and hawkishness towards Tehran and understand that we also won't tolerate them hedging with the Chinese. Now, that comes from the fact that America is hedging on them. 

And so there's going to be a lot of parts that have to come together like a puzzle, to try to put Humpty Dumpty back together again, actual restored turns and regain that peace through strength in the region. This is true in the Middle East. It's true in Europe, and it's true in the Indo Pacific. So what is deterrence? I think that's a major question. What is deterrence?

Made up of two big things, capacity and will. Joe Biden and Donald Trump both have capacity. They were the commander in chief at some point of the most powerful military on Earth. Nobody doubts that you have capacity when you are the president of the United States. But our enemies do doubt the will. And they test the will early on. 

Every single administration gets tested, whether it's China, whether it's Putin, whether it's Iran, they get tested. At some point, Donald Trump got tested by the Iranians and Soleimani is dead. And that changed a lot of things in the world. And over the course of time, the unpredictability, the some of the craziness of the media went hysterical over the red button with Kim Jong Un did get the attention of people like Vladimir Putin. The Taliban tested Joe Biden, and he failed the test. And Kabul fell. And then Ukraine was invaded. And then now in China, they're expanding and starting to harass and actually attack in some ways, the Philippines and Taiwan. 

And what are we seeing? Nothing. So, the minute Donald Trump becomes president, when I hear Trump say, just my election is going to start bringing about a change on the Ukraine front, a change in the world. You might have laughed at that. 

I think after Saturday, you're not laughing anymore. A picture that if you're Xi Jinping, the Ayatollah, Putin, Kim Jong Un, looking at that on your desk every day of Donald Trump with his fist in the air blood dripping, right after being shot, saying fight. You're not questioning will. And that will be, I think, the big game changer. 

Now, they might still test it. And there's a Chinese proverb, which is, you have to kill the chicken to scare the monkey. And I think President Trump might have to kill a chicken. He'd have to pick the chicken wisely. I think it might be the Houthis. That makes no sense to me. There is a national interest, there's a strategic importance to it. And it will game change how you're trying to get the Gulf Arabs back on side, see that we are committed to the security in the Gulf in the broader Middle East, it will send a major signal to Tehran, and it'll be part of that pivot back to maximum pressure on Iran and maximum support for Israel. 

Jason Isaacson:  

Rich, thank you. But before I turn back to the Abraham Accords, let me ask you, what's your sense of the Saudi and UAE and Bahraini overtures to Iran? Are they just seeking some kind of stability, some kind of channel, but it doesn't have a whole lot of meaning, or what's your sense and how should the US respond? Rich?

Rich Goldberg:  

I think there is meaning to it. I think that Mohammed bin Salman, the Crown Prince in Saudi Arabia has changed his strategic calculus over the last three years. I think that there was a game changing moment for him when the Houthis were raining down missiles, next to a Formula One race he was hosting out in Jeddah. And you’re talking about major investors, world leaders, important people all driving into a race course already there. And you're seeing a ballistic missile explode within your line of sight. And the United States does nothing. 

And then Abu Dhabi comes under attack by the Houthis, and the United States does nothing. And they're saying, Wow, they're just at the table trying to give the Iranians whatever they can, they've taken the Houthis off the terror list. They're not defending us anymore. They've pulled the missile defense augmentation that Trump put in, in 2019-2020. And they're still trying to get this nuclear deal done. 

What are we doing here? Why are we just waiting around for Godot? Why are we exposed? We should cut a deal here. And why if the United States can hedge on us, can't we hedge on them, and they start cozying up to the Chinese and doing things that we probably don't like very much I need to put an end to. So I think it's very real. These channels are real. They're in a hedge.

I think it's taken a while for others that are far more suspicious of Iran, like Bahrain to get on board this strategy. But everybody sort of signed up to this. There's a normalization process with Assad that I think is partially connected to it as well. All of that's going to have to change. You have Donald Trump is back in office. And I don't know that they appreciate that very much.

Jason Isaacson:  

There's also a recollection of the Trump administration in this reaction or non reaction to this Iranian attack on Saudi Aramco facilities. So it's been a mixed bag. But But first, let me let me let me turn back to you. And we were talking about the Abraham accords before. That was a great foreign policy access success of the last months of the Trump administration, first of the UAE, then Bahrain and then with different terminology, but Morocco and Sudan.

As you know, the Biden administration has been vigorously pursuing an effort to normalize Saudi relations with Israel, and objective that was also very much a part of the Trump administration's vision. What are your perspectives on the likelihood of that kind of a deal being closed in the last months of the current Biden administration, if they do move forward on such a deal with the Republicans getting the Senate joined with Democrats in the Senate to support such a deal before the election? Or perhaps in a lame duck session after the election? 

 Kirsten Fontenrose:  

Well that's the big question. So I think if you have a deal that includes normalization with Israel, Saudi us still includes normalization with Israel, it has a shot of getting through, but the closer we get to the election, the smaller that shot gets, because the more Republicans Congress will want to hold out to grant that foreign policy when to potential Republican administration. 

But if you have a deal that is being discussed now, as a Plan B, that is just a US-Saudi deal, without normalization. And this is because of the Israeli government's decision, perhaps not to grant that the Saudis are fully on board, you won't get it through, there's just not enough in it. For the US. There are lots of questions about why we'd be granting Saudi assistance with civilian nuclear technology. And a security guarantee, when we're not really getting much out of it. There's nothing in this deal in terms of concrete asks on the relationship with China.

And we can really go quite far in blocking Chinese influence in the Gulf by just improving our own foreign military sales process. We don't need to grant security guarantees, the Israeli Saudi relationship is so close right now. It's normalization and everything but public statement and name and that public statement name is important for the follow on effects you have around the world globally and with other Muslim populations. 

But in terms of their coordination, they're in a pretty good place. So we're not in some sort of crisis rush to make sure this happens in the next few months, unless you're the Biden team. And you're desperate for a foreign policy win, because your promises on other foreign policy fronts have not borne out. 

So I think you will still see this continue, though we have doubled down on the Saudi discussion, if there is a second Trump administration. But you will not see this granting of a deal to Saudi Arabia, even though they are a phenomenal partner. And we are quite close, without more concrete asks that benefit U.S. goals as well. It's not the opinion that just having Saudi on side with nothing we've actually signed them up to, would they grant overflight rights, if things came down with Iran. 

We need to make those more specific before we would do something that would require commitment of troops, large resources, equipment, perhaps to the detriment of other partners, we would be able to send those same troops and equipment. So I don't think we're going to see it in the last months of this administration.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

To hear the rest of the panel, head to the link in our show notes. Another reminder that AJC is a nonpartisan organization and will be at the DNC next month in Chicago. We hope to see some of you there. 

Next week on People of the Pod, tune in for our sit down with two Jewish Olympians before they head to Paris for the Summer Olympic Games.

This week, we bring you highlights from AJC Virtual Global Forum 2021. First, in a conversation moderated by Manya Brachear Pashman, we hear from H.E. Dr. Ali Rashid Al Nuaimi, Chairman of Hedayah, and Rabbi David Rosen, AJC Director of International Interreligious Affairs, in The Siegler Family Annual Muslim-Jewish Symposium on How Interfaith Relations Helped Drive the Abraham Accords.

Then, two college student activists, Julia Jassey, University of Chicago ‘23, and Talia Rosenberg, University of Pennsylvania ‘21, help us understand today’s challenges and opportunities on campus for pro-Israel students during the AJC Virtual Global Forum’s session, The View from Campus, moderated by Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman, AJC Deputy Director of Young Leadership.

___

Episode Lineup:

(0:40) H.E. Dr. Ali Rashid Al Nuaimi, Rabbi David Rosen, Manya Brachear Pashman

(21:38) Julia Jassey, Talia Rosenberg, and Meggie Wyschogrod Fredman

In this heartfelt conversation with Jon Polin and Rachel Goldberg, the parents of 23-year-old Hersh, who is among the over 240 hostages held by Hamas terrorists, they detail what they know about their son’s abduction from the Supernova music festival on October 7th and the challenges they face in trying to secure his rescue. They also describe their dismay that world leaders are not doing enough to bring the hostages home and share ways to keep their son and all the hostages’ stories alive. 

Take action to bring all hostages home now.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Jon Polin, Rachel Goldberg

Show Notes:

Listen – People of the Pod on the Israel-Hamas War:

• Renana Gomeh’s Sons Were Taken Hostage by Hamas: What She Needs You to Do to Bring Them Home Now

• What Biden’s Wartime Visit to Israel Signals to Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah

• Mai Gutman Was Supposed to Be at the Music Festival: IDF Lone Soldier Recounts Harrowing Week

• Responding to Hamas Terror: IsraAID CEO on How You Can Help Israelis Right Now

Learn:

• What is Known About Israeli Hostages Taken by Hamas

• 7 Ways Hamas Exploits Palestinian Civilians in Gaza

• How much do you know about Hamas? Try to ace our quiz and expose the truth about the terror group today.

Donate:

• AJC.org/SupportIsrael

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Transcript of Interview with Jon Polin and Rachel Goldberg:

Jon Polin:

This is a global humanitarian issue. And every day, I wonder why is the world not speaking in that way? Why is the world shoving this into a simple black and white box of Israeli-Gaza, Israeli-Palestinian? Why are 33 foreign ministers around the world not holding hands and screaming about the magnitude of this humanitarian crisis?

Manya Brachear Pashman:

On October 7, Hamas terrorists broke into homes and raided a music festival, murdering more than 1400 civilians and soldiers and kidnapping at least 245 from more than 30 different countries. Almost four weeks later, only five hostages have returned home. Jon Polin and Rachel Goldberg say it doesn’t matter where this happened. It is an international atrocity carried out against innocent lives and families around the world, including their own. But no one is talking about the hostage situation in Gaza in those terms. Why not? 

Jon and Rachel are with us now to talk about their quest to bring home their 23-year-old son Hersh and the other hostages. Jon, Rachel: Welcome. Thank you for joining us. 

Jon Polin:  

Thank you. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Can you tell our listeners what you know about your son's abduction and the circumstances? It is a widely known story I think by now but just for those few that have not heard.

Rachel Goldberg:

So, I'll give you a sort of quick version because as you said, I think a lot of people already are familiar with Hersh's story. But he and his best friend who were at the music festival when the massacre started, they escaped in a car with two other friends and started to try to head north to get out of harm's way. 

But the road was blocked by Hamas gunmen who were just shooting at point blank range anyone who even got near them. So Hersh and his friends, and many other of the young people who were also in cars trying to escape, just stopped the cars, flung the doors open, and went running to these outside, roadside bomb shelters. 

Hersh and his friend Amer ended up with 29, a total of what we believe to be 29 of them smushed into this cinder block reinforced windowless small bomb shelter, which Hamas started to descend upon and threw in initially, hand grenades, which Hersh’s friend Amer was standing by the doorway and manage to actually retrieve, pickup before detonating and throw back out at least seven of them. Three did detonate inside causing a lot of carnage. 

And then Hamas brought in an RPG which they fired directly into this small room of young people. And then they sprayed the room with machine gun bullets. 

After a couple of minutes of the dust settling, most of those young people were dead. Many of them were severely wounded, some were trapped under the dead bodies and the dying bodies and it is from those witnesses that we heard what happened to Hersh. 

Which is, he was slumped with three other boys against one of the walls and they were all somewhat injured but they still appeared alive. And Hamas walked in and said, everybody you know you four stand up and come outside. And when they stood up, the eyewitnesses told us that Hersh's left arm from around the elbow down had been blown off. He had somehow managed to fashion some sort of bandage or tourniquet, and he walked out. 

They all walked out calmly. I'm sure they were in deep shock and dazed and traumatized by what they had just seen take place in front of them. And they were boarded onto a Hamas pickup truck which headed toward Gaza. And Hersh's last cell phone signal was found inside of Gaza at 10:25am, Saturday morning October 7. 

We subsequently did get a video from CNN’s Anderson Cooper who had come across it in research he had been doing on a documentary about the music festival. And he shared that with us. 

So we've actually seen Hersh walking out of the bomb shelter using his less dominant hand. He is left-handed and now doesn't have a left hand. He uses his right hand to board the pickup truck and he turns around to sit down and it's in that moment when he turns that you can see the stump where his left arm used to be. And he sat down and that's the last that we have seen him, heard anything about him in the last 26 days.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I did watch that interview with Anderson Cooper, where they showed that footage and I'm curious what your takeaways were from that video, what were your observations, and also, did it give you hope to see him?

Jon Polin:  

So on the one hand, as you can imagine it is a video that nobody would ever want to see of their loved one, their child. So basic answer is it's horrendously terrible to see it. 

On the other hand, I have been in a position where we need to just look for optimism and hope anywhere we can find it in the last 26 days. And so when I saw that video, my lens on it was, and especially since I know what had preceded it for the 90 minutes before that: the carnage, seeing his best friend killed, etc. 

I looked at the video and I saw Hersh looking composed, walking on his own two feet, using his one remaining hand, which happens to be his weak hand, to pull himself onto this truck. And clearly in shock, as one would expect. But I took some optimism from seeing what kind of shape he appeared to be in.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

You said 26 days, I cannot believe it's been 26 days that they've held these hostages with no word. And Rachel, you're wearing a 26 on your shirt I saw. What kind of support are you getting? What kind of conversations are you having with policymakers, negotiators, anyone, that indicates progress?

Rachel Goldberg:

Well, it's kind of a two pronged question. Because what are you doing to walk through these days is, we are surrounded by a team–beyond angels, beyond friends, beyond professional people who are dragging us along when we can't drag ourselves, and they're very talented, and they're very smart and tireless and tenacious. And so that helps us. 

And in the bigger picture, I mean, we've had a lot of conversations with both sides in terms of, you know, we are American-Israeli, so we right away that first Saturday turned to the US Embassy. They were extremely responsive right away, partially because they could be. They weren't at war, you know, Israel, I do cut them some slack for being slow in the beginning, because I mean, there were still terrorists running around killing people in their homes. When we first heard about what happened to Hersh. So we were spread very thin. There were things happening up in the north, there were things happening down south. I mean, I understood why there was a sort of short start to that end of things. On the American side, we've had incredible conversations with you know, as high up as you could get with President Biden, with US Secretary of State Anthony Blinken, with 15 different senators. They don't care, they said, this isn't a Republican-Democrat issue. This is an American hostage issue. We don't care what stripes you're wearing, people being real adults, which is refreshing and felt very good and supported. And that is a very excellent first step. 

We are now on day 26. And I need a little bit more actually, information, maybe action. I'm never one of the people in this that has said tell me what you're doing and tell me what the plan is because I always think that's ridiculous. Obviously, we can't know about that stuff. But because of Hersh’s grave injury, it's different, I think, than if I had known he was just kidnapped and healthy, because I have a very primal fear that maybe he didn't get the treatment he needed, and maybe I'm here on day 26, but Hersh died on day one. So that's very difficult. Or maybe he did get treated and then three days afterwards, they said, well, we don't have any more antibiotics and then he died of sepsis. You know, so there's a lot of different kind of constellations of what ifs that, you know, run through our minds, and that make it very difficult to kind of feel trust and kind of know everyone said it's gonna take a long time. And it's a process. And I feel like well, that, unfortunately, we don't have that. And it's very concerning. 

When we were in America, we've had conversations with ambassadors from different countries who were, I think, trying to be helpful. In Israel, we've tried to have conversations with who we can get to, and we're doing what everyone would do, I think, if they were in our situation, but this isn't our world that we're used to. And we haven't found a playbook for this situation yet. There are playbooks for lots of other situations, but we haven't found one for this yet.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

There have been reports that hostages with dual citizenship or foreign hostages may be released first. Considering Hersh is a dual citizen, what have you heard?

Rachel Goldberg:

I don't think it'll make a difference for him. My personal pontificating is that they probably will release some of these poor Thai people who were swept up in this chaos. Or the Nepalese people, there are, you know, 33 different countries that have citizens that are currently being held. And I think I would be thrilled and elated if Hirsch was released. But I would be also shocked, because my impression is that the people that they're talking about are not people like Hersh.

Jon Polin:  

We both, Rachel and I, are elated for the hostage for their family, for the country, for the world. Anytime a hostage is released. We celebrate for a moment for all of them, and then we get back to work. 

The broader point here is, of course, we are most concerned about our son who's wounded. But if Hersh walked in the door five minutes from now, we'd hug him, we'd rejoice and we'd get back to work because there are 239 hostages that must be released. 

And the second part of that is, as Rachel talked about, these hostages represent something like 33 countries. This is not an Israeli-Palestinian, an Israeli-Gaza, an Arab-Jewish issue. This is a global humanitarian issue. And every day, I wonder why is the world not speaking in that way? Why is the world shoving this into a simple black and white box of Israeli-Gaza, Israeli-Palestinian? Why are 33 foreign ministers around the world not holding hands and screaming about the magnitude of this humanitarian crisis?

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Rachel said this isn't our world. I'm curious if you could share a little bit about Hirsch's world. How long has your family lived in Israel? How did you end up in Israel to begin with? And talk a little bit about Hirsch.

Jon Polin:  

Rachel and I should say are both born and raised in Chicago, still have our mothers and other family members living in Chicago, products of the organized Jewish world in Chicago, and are feeling a lot of support from Chicago. 

Rachel and I moved to California, where Hirsch and one of our other children, we have three kids. Hirsch and his sister Leebie were both born in California. And then when Hersh was three or four, we moved to Virginia where we lived for four years before moving to Israel as a family. We moved to Israel because Rachel and I felt like, it's an opportunity. This is something that our great-grandparents and their parents and their parents longed for and didn't have the opportunity and we do, so how do we not join this ride, as Rachel said.

Hersh is a quiet, I always say he doesn't walk in a room and make a lot of noise. But once he's been in the room for 15 minutes, he's gotten into the hearts of a lot of people. He's a really quiet, likable guy with a sharp, very smart, quick witted. Very curious, he's always been a voracious reader. He sweeps categories. When he was seven or eight, he swept the category of US presidents and knew every detail of every president and their years and their administration and so on. 

Not much after that he got into atlases and maps and globes, and that has been a constant in his life. He's been fascinated by the world and by traveling the world, every opportunity, including on his own dime, working, making money and taking trips. In high school, he and Amer, and a few other friends had the chance to go to a few different countries, as 17, 18 year olds on their own traveling. He's been dreaming about this around the world trip for which he has a ticket booked for December 27 to India. Rachel keeps saying, you only need one arm to travel the world so he can do it. That's who he is. I mean, it hit me over the last 26 days as people started to ask us about Hersh. And I really mean this, in 23 years of life, he's never upset me. He's super respectful. It doesn't mean he's a perfect angel, because he's not. But he's just got a very tasteful way of being mischievous with his family, with his siblings, with his parents, with his teachers. That's who he is.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

There was a piece written by Shoshana Gottleib for Hey Alma. Shoshana has never met Hersh in person but long before all of this came across Hersh’s bar mitzvah bencher at a friend’s apartment in Jerusalem and felt a real connection to him. So she instantly recognized his name when she heard he was among the hostages. Did you see that column?

Rachel Goldberg:

We did. It's very funny. Our family tradition is that for each of the kids' bar or bat mitzvahs, we would make a prayer book that had all of the grace after meals, the birkat hamazon. And in the covers, we had the grandmothers make up songs about that kid, to popular tunes. And as you know, sometimes these prayer books, these benchers, they're called, get sprinkled around, and somehow someone ends up with one in their apartment that isn't theirs. They don't even know the people who it belongs to. 

And this young woman had come across his bench, his bar mitzvah bencher years ago. And at that Shabbat table, she started to sing all the songs because the songs are to popular songs that people know. And she got a real kick out of it. And that became her whole crew’s tradition Friday night, were to sing the songs from the Hersh Goldberg-Polin bencher. 

He tried to explain this to his grandmother to Jon's mom, and she said, doesn't this girl have anything better to do than to sing the songs from your bencher? So anyway, she wrote, since hearing about Hersh, when she heard his name 26 days ago in the news, she immediately knew who he was, because she's been singing his bencher songs for years, even though she's never met him. So she wrote a cute piece about that.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

There have been really intense retaliatory strikes on Gaza and the IDF has sent troops and tanks into the Gaza Strip. But the ground offensive has been limited in order to avoid endangering any efforts to free the hostages. Are you hoping for any change in approach in terms of this offensive or these retaliatory strikes?

Jon Polin:  

It's such a hard one because we are parents of somebody who is held hostage. We are part of the family of people of 239 families who are now together in this. But even as we tried to separate ourselves from it, and we understand that there is an Israeli national interest here, and we understand that the consensus seems to be building or is already built that we must eliminate Hamas for the sake of Israel's ability to exist and to move forward. 

But we don't get involved in the military strategy or the military planning. We obviously are highly concerned about the safety of hostages. But we are equally concerned about the safety of all the soldiers. We've got a house full of people since October 7, who are parents of soldiers on the front lines, and starting to hit closer and closer to home as we start to see the first few names of soldiers killed coming in. 

And we also should say that we're concerned about innocent civilians on all sides, on the Gazan side. So it doesn't really answer your direct question other than we are hopeful that this gets resolved in minimum loss of life on all sides. I've contemplated—should they have waited longer, should they still wait longer to go in at all, and I understand both sides of the argument. But I keep coming back to: Hamas isn't going anywhere, they're holed up in there. And so if we can go very judiciously, and still try every other possible channel to get people released, I’m for it.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Every Friday night on Shabbat you stand out on your porch, you face Gaza, and you bless your son. Can you tell a little bit about how that restores you, how that connects you to Hersh?

Rachel Goldberg:

Well, I feel like now more than ever, he probably needs a blessing. You know, and this is the traditional blessing that all Jewish parents give to their children on Friday nights. And I feel like he needs it more than ever. And I think I need to give it more than ever.

And ultimately, you know, it's saying like, let God lift up God's face toward you and give you peace, which is so desperately needed. So desperately needed every single place in the world. But certainly when I picture him somewhere, you know, I don't know what to picture and I feel like I am privileged to be able to give that blessing to Hersh.

I think all of us who have children, your first child is what changes you in the world. And you go from becoming a person to becoming a parent. And that's what Hersh did for me. So I will always be a different person in the world because of Hirsch. 

The first time, that first Shabbat when he was just a newborn baby, to give him that blessing was such a privilege that I feel like until I am told otherwise, it is my privilege to give it to him and if I have to scream it to him, because he's far away, then I will do that. And I will keep screaming that to him until he comes home or until I am told otherwise.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

AJC and my colleagues here at AJC, of course, have been working with your family to bring Hersh and the other hostages home. Listeners can go to AJC.org/BringThemHome to urge Congress and the United Nations to release all of the hostages. But Rachel, Jon, what more can we do to help you?

Jon Polin:  

Well, first of all, now that you mentioned it, and it was on my mind to squeeze in as well. It's not just platitudes, like our gratitude to AJC is tremendous. CEO Ted Deutch, on down, we've been in touch with members of your team. They've been supportive. They've been guiding us. And we cannot thank AJC enough for their involvement not only for us, but for all Americans and all hostages. In terms of what people can do, we keep saying we wish we had better answers because we feel the outpouring of support from around the world and people asking us that question. We can give a few answers. And those are as follows. 

Number one, if this is your thing: pray. Hersh Ben Perel Chana, or Hersh ben Perel Chana v’Yonatan Shimshon. Have him in your prayers and have all the hostages in your prayers. 

The second thing is: awareness. We think it's critical to keep telling the story of all the hostages. In our case, it's Hersh, but it's all the hostages. News cycles in the world happen quickly, news cycles in Congress and in Washington happen quickly. And we need listeners of this podcast, we need the American Jewish community, we need everybody who can to keep this story alive, keep it front and center. When the world starts to move on from the story, don’t let them. This is a global humanitarian crisis. We cannot forget these people. 

The third is outreach. We, in our case, put up Bring Hersh Home social channels, turnkey templates, talking points, emails that people could copy and paste, a spreadsheet of elected officials and their contact information. 

We are trying to make it as easy as possible. We know that it matters, it matters for your elected officials to hear not just once but to hear every single day about important issues, in this case, the importance of releasing all the hostages. We've been telling people, set your alarm for the same time every day, and take one minute and reach out to your elected officials and just don't stop hounding them.

Rachel Goldberg:

I think that counting is something that's very easy. I think in the Jewish tradition, we are very obsessed with, you know, we count the Omer between Passover and Shavuot. We count days of the month to make sure that we're, is it a 29 day month or 30 day month, we're very conscious. Even the days of the week, we count as the first day, the second day, the third day, we don't have names of it. We count. 

And I think that that one minute call to your person who can be on autodial to say, Hi, it's day 25 and the hostages are still not released, goodbye. Hi, it's day 26 and the hostages are still not released, goodbye. 

Now, it sounds ridiculous. But if you have 1000s of people making those calls every single day, that is annoying for the person who's getting the call. And we want to be annoying. My mother always said the squeaky wheel gets the oil or whatever. 

I'll say also, being distracting, I now realize, is a great thing. When we were in New York. You know, since this whole thing happened, a lot of stuff falls right into perspective. You know, I haven't worn makeup. I haven't worn jewelry. I just put my hair back. We don't sleep very well. 

When we were at one of the news outlets, the anchor, not even the makeup woman, the anchor said, Can we put some makeup on you? And I said no, I'm a distraught mother. And he said, Yeah, but maybe it's a little distracting. And I said, Yeah, I want to be distracting. 

And so I feel like I would beseech people to go out and be distracting, go out and bug people that it's day 26, and we know nothing. 

And you know, we get requests on this social media stuff that we're doing. People are saying can you give us updates? Yeah, the update is they're doing nothing. That's the update from today. And tomorrow–I hope I'm wrong–but the update for tomorrow might be, they didn't do anything today. Like we're working our butts off and we're trying every possible angle we can. And for people to just make a call saying: it's day 26 and I'll talk to you tomorrow if he's not home. If they're not all home. I think is a one minute ask. And I think the impact is great.

Because I do think, we're a David, a mini mini molecule of David fighting a mammoth Goliath here. And I appreciate all the people that keep coming up to me and saying, he's my son too, and I believe it. So do it.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Jon, Rachel, thank you so much for joining us and sharing this story.

Rachel Goldberg:

Thank you for having us, and I also just want to give a shout out because honest to God, I don't know what we would have done without the support of AJC so far. I mean it. I mean it from the bottom of my heart. So really, that community will always be with us, no matter what happens.

In this powerful episode, we sit down with Sam Harris, who is one of the youngest survivors of the Holocaust. As a young child, Sam watched in horror as his family was taken to Treblinka and murdered, but he and his two older sisters were able to beat the odds. Listen as Sam recounts the unimaginable struggles he faced during one of the darkest periods in human history and how his experience motivated him to play a central role in the founding of the Illinois Holocaust Museum.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.

__

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Sam Harris

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Show Notes:

Read:

• Sammy - Child Survivor of the Holocaust by Sam Harris

Watch:

• Full live recording of this episode

Listen: 

• Interview with Howard Reich, as mentioned in this week’s episode: The Art of Inventing Hope: Elie Wiesel’s Masterclass for Humanity
• Our most recent podcast episode: ‘Leopoldstadt’ Actor David Krumholtz Sees Tom Stoppard’s Holocaust Play as the Role of a Lifetime

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

As the senior rabbi of Stephen Wise Free Synagogue in New York City, Rabbi Ammiel Hirsch believes Zionism is a core value of Judaism. Rabbi Hirsch sat down with guest host Laura Shaw Frank, AJC's Director of Contemporary Jewish Life, to discuss the danger of a waning commitment to Israel among a portion of Reform Judaism, a recent delegation to the Poland-Ukraine border, and how being #JewishAndProud is as important to him as breathing. 

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Episode Lineup:

(0:40) Listeners on #JewishAndProud

(2:59) Rabbi Ammiel Hirsch

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Show Notes:

What does being Jewish mean to you? We want to know your answer. Call the People of the Pod hotline at 212-891-1336 and leave a message of a minute or less in our voicemail inbox. Don’t forget to include your name and city with your answer. You may hear your voice on a future episode!

Urge the White House to Combat Domestic Antisemitism

Urge Congress to Stand with Israel

AJC’s Emergency #StandWithUkraine Fund

Urge Congress to Counter Russian Aggression

Listen to our latest episode: How Do American Millennial Jews Feel About Israel?

Don’t forget to subscribe to People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, tag us on social media with #PeopleofthePod, and hop onto Apple Podcasts to rate us and write a review, to help more listeners find us.

Join us in a tribute to the memory of Joyce Fienberg, one of the 11 victims of the 2018 shooting at the Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh. In this touching second installment of our series on the events of 10/27 , we sit down with Joyce's son, Howard Fienberg, and his wife, Marnie, as they share their  journey of mourning and resilience. Joyce was not only a dedicated member of the Tree of Life synagogue but also a retired university researcher, a devoted mother, and grandmother.

Howard and Marnie open up about their extended period of mourning due to trial delays, offering a glimpse into the emotional toll of such a traumatic event. Marnie details how she turned her grief into 2 for Seder, an initiative to honor Joyce and push back against the hate that creates antisemitism.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Howard Fienberg, Marnie Fienberg

Show Notes:

Listen:

• Remembering Pittsburgh Part 1: Behind the Scenes at the Reimagined Tree of Life

Take Action:

• Urge Congress to Stand Against Rising Antisemitism

Music credits:

• Tree of Life by Nefesh Mountain

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Episode Transcript:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

After her husband and mother died in 2016, Joyce Fienberg started each day at Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh, to recite Kaddish, the mourner's prayer. Even when she was no longer officially considered a mourner as Jewish tradition prescribes, 11 months, she continued to attend services each morning at the synagogue. 

That's why Howard Feinberg knew his mother Joyce was at Tree of Life when he heard there had been a shooting there on the morning of October 27, 2018. It would be more than 12 hours before he learned she was among the 11 killed that day. 

Howard and his wife Marnie are with us now from their home in Northern Virginia to talk about their prolonged mourning period and how they have held onto and channeled that grief. Howard, Marnie, thank you so much for joining us.

Howard Fienberg:  

Thanks for having us.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Howard, you followed your mother’s example and recited kaddish for 11 months. Can you tell us a little bit about that experience? That experience of saying Kaddish and mourning for your mother, and also can you share with our listeners why it felt like the mourning period was extended?

Howard Fienberg:  

I felt a huge amount of support everywhere I went, in order to be able to say Kaddish every day. Which for someone who was not the most observant of Jews, it was a big lift to be able to do that every day. In fact, even when traveling in disparate places, that I could always find, somehow, be able to pull together 10 people to be able to say Kaddish was a big deal. And I wanted to make sure that no one would struggle in similar circumstances as well. 

Obviously, initially, in Pittsburgh putting together 10 people was not a particularly big lift. Because the community support in that first week of Shiva was phenomenal. But it's not an easy thing in many congregations, and I think we are fortunate in mine that we always seem to pull it out every day. But I want to make sure that it happens. So in practice wise, that's one of the biggest things, my involvement with the synagogue, and prayer. 

The broader extension of the mourning period, in a way, was a result of the constant delay of the trial for the monster that committed the massacre. And that was a result of both just the general usual procedural delays that you would expect, combined with COVID excuses that dragged things out during the trial. And once a new judge took over responsibility for this case, things suddenly snapped into gear and it moved forward. And we're particularly grateful for the judge in this case, just for his very no-nonsense approach moving forward.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Can you talk about whether the guilty verdict once it did take place, and a verdict was delivered, how that verdict changed anything for you and your family?

Howard Fienberg:  

It was a matter of relief, to a great extent. I sat through almost the entirety of the trial, heard and saw all of the evidence. A lot more than I expected to and ever wanted to, but I felt duty to do so. From an outside perspective, looking at it all, you would say this is a slam dunk case, lined up for all the federal hate crimes that were involved. And at the same time, I was in doubt until the jury came back and said, all said guilty. It's just the nature of things. I was on pins and needles. Massive relief afterwards and the same thing with the final verdict and sentencing. Massive relief for us and our families. 

And that did allow…nothing's ever closed. You don’t finish feeling the loss of somebody, especially when they're taken in, you know, horribly violent terrorist circumstances. But you move from segment to segment. So the same as we do in the year of mourning, you're moving from shiva, which is one kind of thing, to the 30 days, and then to the end of the mourning period. And this was moving to yet another period. And what exactly this is and how long it will be, I don't know. But we're figuring that out as we go. I certainly feel a lot more relaxed.

Marnie Fienberg:

Feels a little lighter.

Howard Fienberg:  

Yes, definitely lighter.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

That's good to hear. That's good to hear. I am curious, you said you felt a duty to listen to those details, even though you didn't want to. Can you explain why you felt that sense of obligation?

Howard Fienberg:  

Part of it is, somebody in our family needed to. And it wasn't something that I wanted everybody to sit and hear and see. And I specifically told friends and family as much as I could, to stay far away and said, as much as you want to know, I'll let you know. But otherwise, it's horrific. And it wasn't anything that I would wish for anybody to see and hear. But at the same time, it's the reality of how my mom died. And what the circumstances were, what was going on with the antisemitic conspiracy theories that drove the monster that killed her. And what did he have in mind, and what was his intention, what did he plan, what did he do? These were important things. 

And the bigger picture, which I didn't even know going in, was the extent to which the police in Pittsburgh were so heroic. And while they were not able to save my mom, they saved other people, including friends of ours, and people who are now friends, who would not be alive if those cops had not tried to charge at the front door trying to charge the building and getting shot. And then the SWAT teams going into the building, and in a couple cases getting almost murdered themselves, trying to rescue the people that were inside. And they did rescue some people. And those people would most likely be dead if the SWAT had not rushed in. Equipment wise, they were not ready ordinarily for this sort of situation. But they went in anyways because they knew they needed to, and they didn't hesitate. And that's the kind of thing that you can only understand, having gone to the trial and learned what went on. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Marnie, I want to turn to you. You quit your job as a federal contractor and started a nonprofit initiative called 2 For Seder. What prompted this sudden shift in your career?

Marnie Fienberg:

Well, I think that I was so upset about what happened with my mother-in-law, I did take a leave of absence initially. And I wanted to volunteer. Being a Jewish woman, and having all this anger and grief and all the support that we had received from people, literally all over the world. I just couldn't sit back and do nothing. So I wanted to do something that was really in honor of Joyce, but also something that would help every single Jewish individual if they so chose to be able to take some small tikun-olam-style action, and push back against the hate that creates antisemitism. And I think 2 For Seder really accomplished that, especially that first year. And we were really on track to grow quite enormously, except for COVID. COVID stopped us in our tracks, because it is about inviting 2 people into your home, who have never been to a Seder before and really educating them and immersing them in that Jewish joy and intimacy that you create every year at Passover. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So I'm really curious about the seder connection. Was Joyce known for putting together really elaborate Seders? Was she just always at the Seder table? Why Seders?

Marnie Fienberg:

So this is a two part sort of explanation. So one is the sort of graduation to being allowed to hold the Seder. So my mother-in-law, really for 15 years we actually had done where we started at her house, and I helped her and I learned as we went and then we flipped it. And we came to our house and she would help me and make sure that I was doing things the right way and guiding me the right way. And there's, I mean, there's so much to do, putting on a Seder and trying to of course fit, you know, 30-35 people into a house that really should only have about 20 people in it is, of course, part of the tradition. And she never blinked an eye, it was never too much. 

It was really mostly about making everyone at the table, regardless of their background–she always had students over, she always had people who had no place to go–every single person needed to feel like they were home. So if you had some sort of dietary restrictions, or any sort of an allergy or anything, my mother-in-law would bend over backwards, she bend herself into pretzels to make you feel 100% comfortable. And every single person who ever graced her table felt like they had never been more comfortable before. They felt like they were at their mother's house. And they commented on that many times. It was a wonderful thing. And I have to tell you, it's very hard to live up to. She was one of a kind.

Howard Fienberg:  

If I might add in, part of this comes from looking at photo evidence. I've been going through all of the family photos, last five years, trying to digitize and you can see the progression. So early on, there are pictures of Passover seders that clearly they've invited friends and other professors at the universities, students that were Jewish, they'd invite to Passover on a regular basis. And I think there's a turn somewhere in the early 80s, my brother and I would start inviting our non-Jewish friends to the Passover Seder. 

And probably around about the late 80s was when it became not just bringing in Jews and my brother's friends and my friends who had never been to a Seder, it was their friends and fellow faculty, visiting graduate students from far-flung countries who knew absolutely nothing about Judaism. Certainly nothing about Passover. It was a way for them to have a comfortable introduction to what we're all about. And in all the context that my mother wanted to provide of it being a welcoming taste of being at home.

Manya Brachear Pashman:

We talked about how the Jewish tradition provides the process of formula, you know, the shiva and the 30 day mourning period. But this, the length of time that families have been mourning has been extended, delayed, slowed down. And I'm curious if on top of the Jewish traditions that guide people through the mourning process, if the Jewish community helped fill in some of what was missing, helped comfort you in certain ways?

Marnie Fienberg:

We live in two Jewish communities right now. We live in Northern Virginia, and we have our community here. And then we live in Pittsburgh, in a sense, and we have the community there. And we have been back and forth many times. The community in Pittsburgh, regardless if you were a family member, if you were a member of one of the three synagogues, or if you were a member of the greater community. There were so many ways that there were supports. And even from here we were always invited to participate in them. And some of them were done virtually actually when COVID hit which actually was very helpful for us.

I don't know if the larger Jewish community is aware, but the FBI actually has a whole series of people, an entire division that's just there to support families and the communities that are affected from mass shootings, which also includes a grant to stand up an actual group that that is going to help the community at large. And that's the 10.27 Center for Healing in the Pittsburgh case, and that group is still standing and still running, still helping everyone. 

So there's the Jewish side, where we all still pray together, where we get together for our commemoration once a year, the families always get together in Pittsburgh. And then here in Northern Virginia, there have been a variety of commemorations, but mostly our own local community at our synagogue is extremely supportive. They’re, of course, another family to us. And this has only really brought us all closer, which has been wonderful.

Howard Fienberg:  

We've had a lot of different kinds of support structures, I wouldn't identify anything as where there was a failing, other than the broader problem that people thought it was over. The presumption on the part of everyone, when they found out that there was a trial for the monster that killed my mom, was: wasn't that done already?

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I want to ask you both this question, what has given you hope in the last five years?

Howard Fienberg:  

I haven't had the time and strength to go through all of the letters and cards that we received in the month or two after mom was killed. But some of the ones that really impacted me the most, outside of people that we knew, or that knew my parents, I mean, I think we have a whole box of correspondence and cards from people who never met my mother or us. And a lot of those were from non-Jews, who were deeply impacted by this, and were moved. 

I mean, it's one thing that we had large groups of Jews that came to our Shiva, for example, that wanted to be there to support and during the Shiva period. There were groups of students that came from universities outside of Pittsburgh, like Ohio, and from Massachusetts, they wanted to come and be a part of it, and they weren't Jewish. They just, they felt a need to support. And that's the kind of thing that gives me great hope. Part of why we look at projects like 2 For Seder as so important, that it’s not just that we're Jewish, and we're other. So I see a great load of hope there. 

But at the same time, the fact that, you know, trailing back to the trial, the fact that the Justice Department was willing to pursue the trial, and not just take a plea bargain, but actually present evidence and pursue a case involving such rampant antisemitism, and lay out the facts and prosecute them. That gives me great hope as well. It's not something that is an easy thing. The most reasonable response on their part probably would have been to, no matter what we wanted, would have been to pursue a plea bargain and make it all go away. Because it's expensive, and it doesn't make anybody feel good. Why would you do it?

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

So I have to ask, if the trial had happened a century ago, do you think the jury would have reached a guilty verdict? Do you think the prosecution would have pursued the hate crime charges as they did?

Marnie Fienberg:

So there would never have been any hate crime charges. Hate crimes did not enter the American laws until 1964, which is when the Civil Rights Act was enacted. This is why I think that we always need to be so thankful for Martin Luther King Jr. and to be proud that we were part of that. So a century ago, would this have even been considered an anti-Jewish crime, an antisemitic crime? No. 

I think that you can look at Dreyfuss’ case and you can say very clearly, this country, this part of the world was not ready for something like that. And they would have looked the other way. Would they have convicted as just a general murder? I don't know, there's a lot of those murders that just disappeared 100 years ago. But would it have been because it was antisemitism? Absolutely not. I would be very, very interested to learn of some other way that that would have happened. But we're very grateful that the same laws under the 1964 Civil Rights Act, that is what this was all held under.

Howard Fienberg:  

And the other angle is that the monster that killed everybody, he killed 11 people, he was not an upstanding part of the community, he did not have a whole segment of the community cheering him on, helping him, encouraging him, protecting him. That's not the way it worked.

And the reactions and the killing of my mom was part of the demonstration of that, that people were horrified and they were supportive of us. And, you know, the Justice Department pursuing the case to the fullest extent of the law, as they should, would that have happened 100 years ago? No, but again, not just because of the lack of statute, but you know, our place in society was not what it is today. And society was not the same. 

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

I know we've sprinkled details about your mother throughout this conversation, but is there anything in particular in there anything in particular that you want listeners to know about Joyce?

Howard Fienberg:  

She twisted herself into knots and did whatever she could to help others, that starts with the rest of the family, and the amount of time and energy that she put toward helping us and helping my brother and sister in law and all of her grandkids, which were a huge focus of her life. The fact that she was able to also shoehorn in a lot of volunteer time at multiple different projects in Pittsburgh, as well as being the connector of our family and multiple sets of families, both email and letters and phone calls on a regular basis. It's an amazing thing that she was able to do that on a daily basis and still sleep and function. Not to mention, make sure that she was at minyan at Tree of Life early every morning. It was an amazing balancing act, y’know, it's a hard thing to pull off.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

And she picked up someone each day for minyan as well, right?

Howard Fienberg:  

Yes, so unfortunately, he passed away. Late, late last year. 

Manya Brachear Pashman: 

May his memory be for a blessing. You know, I should ask, what does that mean to you, when this phrase, May her memory be for a blessing. What does that mean to you when someone says that about your mother? 

Howard Fienberg:  

I generally have an appreciation. Because, not just of what she meant to me, but the recognition from other people of the loss. And for some of them, they understand what that loss means. For others, they don't really, but they're trying to support. I do take comfort in that. I'm not certain that I did, certainly in the first week, I was too shell shocked to be able to appreciate all the people that were saying it to me. But, you know, over time, it makes a big difference. And I appreciate being able to do that for others, even complete strangers. If I'm supporting a minyan at someone's shiva, I like to be able to do that.

Marnie Fienberg:

Joyce was such a gentle, loving and caring person and to have her loss be through such an act of hate is where I think we all struggle. And I think whenever anyone talks to Howard or myself or any of the families about their losses, that they can feel that, that they can feel the shock that these people who just wanted to make the world a little bit better, a little bit of a better place, that they would be taken in such an act of hate, for no reason. I think that being able to say May their memory be a blessing really emphasizes the loss that we feel and the hope that we can fill in this space.

Howard Fienberg:  

And I will say it's very awkward to talk to somebody who's in mourning. Just the nature of it. The fact that we have what almost a rote saying that carries so much weight is a huge benefit. And I deploy it regularly with non-Jews. They're partially taken aback, and they're very touched, because they're used to getting the awkward, Oh, I'm so sorry for your loss, which doesn't make anybody feel particularly good. We can argue about the way Judaism approaches all sorts of things. I happen to think the Jewish way of death, you know, as depressing as it may be to think about, is very practical in a lot of ways. And it's designed to be helpful.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Has the rest of your family embraced that? Have they turned to the Jewish faith to cope with this, to try to make sense of it? 

Howard Fienberg:  

My brother was already what is called traditional in France, traditional Judaism, he embraced that much more fully, and is much more on the Orthodox range than he was before. And that was a huge part for him as well in coping, and coming to grips with our new life, after my mom died. And that is a piece of it for all of the family in different ways. 

One of the positive things along these lines, my brother dedicated a Torah in memory of my parents. And by weird twist of fate, or God's hand, in choosing a date to dedicate that Torah in Pittsburgh, the date happened to land a couple of days before the final sentencing in the Tree of Life trial. So we had just a few days before, this whole ceremony and huge celebration that my brother orchestrated, to not only involve the local community and a huge celebration and things that I've heard about, but never seen. 

People marching in a parade down the street, not far from Tree of Life, to introduce the new Torah to its new synagogue, but also in the final writing of the letters, finishing off the Torah, to be able to include some of the law enforcement officers that were injured in trying to rescue people at Tree of Life, as well as all of the families of the victims and the survivors. That everyone was able to participate from our family and our extended family. It was an amazing sight to behold and the simple fact that it landed right before the sentencing was kind of amazing, because there's this amazing positive outgrowth that you might not have expected. And the fact that it perfectly coincided with the darkness of the trial. It’s an amazing thing.

Marnie Fienberg:

He had been planning this for three years. When Howard says that it was an amazing coincidence to bring them both together, to bring the one of the most Jewish things you could possibly do, dedicating a new Torah, creating and dedicating the Torah, right before the sentencing. There was never a plan for that. It just, it just happened.

And it was very healing to the community. But it was also, I mean, the message of the shooter was to stop Judaism, to make us so afraid that we would never go back into the shuls, that we would never go back and be Jewish. And not only in the days right afterwards, where people flocked to go to shul. But this was just one more incredibly powerful expression, that each of the families has done so many different things, to focus on Judaism, focus on making the world a better place in memory of their loved ones. But this is just one more extraordinarily powerful example about how just being Jewish, just doing what we do best, it keeps us going.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

Marnie, Howard, thank you so much for joining us and sharing part of your journey with our listeners, it's really a valuable conversation to have.

Marnie Fienberg:

Thank you for having us. We appreciate it. 

Nefesh Mountain, from the song Tree of Life [singing]:

O sweet friends, come and dry your eyes

And hold each other by this Tree of Life

I’m angry and tired of this great divide

But I sing, nonetheless, with love on our side

Manya Brachear Pashman:

This episode is brought to you by AJC. Our producer is Atara Lakritz. Our sound engineer is TK Broderick. You can follow People of the Pod on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod. The views and opinions of our guests don’t necessarily reflect the positions of AJC. 

You can reach us at peopleofthepod@ajc.org. If you appreciated this episode, please share it with friends and family and write a review on Apple Podcasts.

Have American, European, and Israeli policymakers learned anything since signing the 2015 Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA), known as the Iran nuclear deal? We sat down this week with AJC Jerusalem Director Avital Leibovich, AJC Transatlantic Institute Director Daniel Schwammenthal, and AJC Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer Jason Isaacson to analyze what the next few months could bring. We were also joined by AJC CEO David Harris for a closing message on Iran.

Then, in our closing segment, Shabbat Table Talk, we hear from co-host Manya Brachear Pashman on Kim Kardashian’s response to the violence in Israel and co-host Seffi Kogen shares his thoughts on the recent surge in antisemitism.

_____

Episode Lineup:

(0:40) Avital Leibovich, Daniel Schwammenthal, and Jason Isaacson 

(33:41) David Harris

(41:25) Manya Brachear Pashman

(43:45) Seffi Kogen

_____

Show Notes:

AJC.org/GlobalForum

High Stakes: What’s Next for U.S. Policy on Iran? - AJC Advocacy Anywhere

Listen to an in-depth conversation on all the latest in the 2024 U.S. presidential election, from the vice presidential picks –Tim Walz and JD Vance – to Israel and antisemitism. Julie Fishman Rayman, AJC’s Managing Director of Policy and Political Affairs, speaks with Ron Kampeas, the Washington, D.C. Bureau Chief at the Jewish Telegraphic Agency. Kampeas also discussed the importance of accuracy and empathy in reporting on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, highlighting the need for journalists to avoid biases and misrepresentations.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Ron Kampeas

Learn:

• AJC's Call to Action Against Antisemitism

• U.S. Party Platforms Must Take a Stand Against Antisemitism

• Here are 5 Jewish Issues Republicans and Democrats Must Address at their Conventions
  
  

Listen:

• What the Unprecedented Assassinations of Terror Leaders Means for Israel and the Middle East

• Aviva Klompas is Fighting the Normalization of Antisemitism on Social Media

• On the Ground at the Republican National Convention: What's at Stake for Israel and the Middle East?

Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod

You can reach us at: peopleofthepod@ajc.org

If you’ve appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

Transcript of Interview with Ron Kampeas:

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

This week, my colleague Julie Fishman Rayman, AJC Managing Director of Policy and Political Affairs, spoke to Ron Kampeas, the Washington DC Bureau Chief of JTA, the Jewish Telegraphic Agency. They broke down the latest in the 2024 US presidential election. Julie, the mic is yours.

Julie Fishman Rayman:

Ron, thank you so much for joining us. I'm so pleased to have this conversation with you, because we get to flip the tables and someone who's really a beloved and renowned journalist in the Jewish space, and finally, I get to ask you questions. So thank you for making this opportunity available to us.

Ron Kampeas: 

Thank you.

Julie Fishman Rayman:

I want to start by talking a little bit about the conventions. You were in Milwaukee covering AJC’s event, alongside a number of other things. Thank you for being there with us. What were your biggest takeaways from the Republican Convention, particularly as they related to the issues of Israel and antisemitism?

Ron Kampeas: 

I think Israel was front and center, and they made it front and center because it's an obvious advantage that they have over the Democrats right now. So, you know, I think the representative moment was, in a way, when Matt Brooks, the CEO of the Republican Jewish Coalition, he was invited for the first time to address the Republican Convention, and the first thing he said was, let's hear it for Israel, or something like that, or let's hear it for the hostages. And there were cheers, and then he says that couldn't happen in a month at the Democratic Convention. He might be right. And so that was a big plus for them. On antisemitism it's a little more opaque, but it's problematic, I think, because after Matt spoke, he called us Jewish media reporters together for a little gaggle, and we asked him, naturally, about the isolationism that the vice presidential or the running mate pick JD Vance represents. And it's interesting, the way that Matt put it. He said, yeah, it is a problem. He was candid. He said, it's a problem in the party, and we plan to fight it.

And, you know, nobody prompted him, but he said, we plan to take on the Tucker Carlson wing of the party. The interesting thing about that is that he said, prevent Tucker Carlson wing from getting a foothold. And Tucker Carlson had very much a foothold at the convention. He spoke on the last night, setting up Donald Trump's speech. He was up in the balcony with Donald Trump. And of course, you know, Matt's point is that Tucker Carlson is very much an isolationist, particularly as far as Ukraine goes, but he's given hints as far as Israel goes. But it's more than that. He's platformed antisemites, and he's kind of ventured into that territory himself – antisemites like Candace Owens, Kanye West – and I think that that is something that Jewish Republicans are going to have to grapple with.

Julie Fishman Rayman:

One of the things that was discussed at AJC’s event alongside the Republican National Convention was the policy positions of not just JD Vance, but others who sort of align with that faction of the Republican Party – I guess, the Tucker Carlson faction – and sort of reading the tea leaves on Ukraine and saying, you know, at what point does the hesitancy around support for Ukraine translate into hesitancy for support for Israel? And does it? What would you say to that question?

Ron Kampeas: 

You know, it's interesting that at least as far as I could track, that played out an explicit sense only at your event, at the AJC event. There were people who were asking hard questions of the panelists, and two of the panelists were very much not stumping for Trump, they were defending Trump and the Trump policies. Kirsten Fontenrose, not so much. She was more critical, and even though she was part of the Trump NSC. And so the defense that they were saying is that simply, you know, whatever you may think of Trump's position, this is Rich Goldberg has particularly said this, but I think Ken Weinstein also said it, whatever you may think of Trump's positions on Ukraine, the strength he will project in the world. And this was right after the assassination, and Rich Goldberg kept on bringing up that Associated Press photo of Trump looking very defiant after being shot, that strength is going to deter the kind of actions that Putin has taken in Ukraine. 

But the flip side of that actually came up a couple of weeks later at a Christians United for Israel conference here in DC, where isolationism was very much on the mind, and what they were articulating and what might have been articulated in an AIPAC conference, if AIPAC still had conferences – it doesn't – but what they were articulating is that it's holistic, that you can't just say, like, JD Vance says, ‘Oh, I'm all for assisting Israel, but we don't need to assist Ukraine, because Russia's bad actions in Ukraine are being supported by Iran. Iran is supplying arms to Russia in Ukraine that it then can, you know, see how those arms work in Ukraine, and they can use them theoretically against Israel.’ 

We're seeing now, as tensions build up in the Middle East, that Russia has Iran's back. And then, you know, there's also China, which is also problematic and is buying Iranian oil and helping to prop up the Iranian economy that way. So it's not simply a matter of whether one side projects strength better than the other side, and this is the argument coming out of the Christians United for Israel thing. It's a matter of constant engagement and awareness of how all these things can interlock.

Julie Fishman Rayman:

I think that's a really great point, and I'm glad you made that connection. I know one of the other issues that was present or discussed at the Christians United for Israel conference was the issue of the hostages, and what you said before about the sort of rallying result of Matt Brooks’ comments about, you know, let's hear it for Israel, let’s hear it for the hostage families. And a similar cry might solicit or elicit at the DNC. What do you think we could expect? You know, would you expect that a hostage family will take to the stage as Orna and Ronen Neutra did at the DNC, and if so, what might the result be?

Ron Kampeas: 

So that's a good question. I know that they've asked. I know that the hostage families have asked to appear at the DNC. I know that there are people who have told me that the DNC, especially like with Kamala Harris, who has spoken out for the hostages. I don't see how Kamala Harris could not have the hostages or some sort of representation of the hostages at the conference. On the other hand, the Democrats are going to have to worry about, I don't think they're going to be booed, but I think that they're not going to get the same sort of enthusiastic reception that maybe that they got at the Republican conference, and simultaneously the uncommitted movement. The movement was founded in Michigan and spread to some other states that when Biden was the nominee, particularly, they were upset that Biden wasn't doing enough to stop the war in Gaza, wasn't doing enough to force Israel into a ceasefire, and they wanted to show that they didn't necessarily have to vote for him in November, so they didn't vote for him in the primaries. 

And they had different effects in different states, but certainly in states like Michigan and Minnesota, I think that they had a pretty good turnout as far as that goes. And they want a doctor from Gaza to speak at the DNC. So you know which might be fine. It might be a legitimate enterprise in their part, but you know that the Democrats are going to be accused of “both sides-ing” it, that the Republicans wouldn't have somebody like that. So because of the Democrats of different constituencies, as much as the Republicans are now, at least the Trump campaign is now trying to reach out to Arab Americans. It's much more a constituency for the Democrats, as are the Jews. It's going to be like a tightrope for them to walk. And so I don't know how that's going to be a play out, but it's certainly something we're going to be tracking.

Julie Fishman Rayman:

Talking about that, that tightrope, and also, because you mentioned Michigan and Minnesota, let's talk for a moment about the selection of Minnesota Governor Tim Walz for the vice presidential nominee. He has both spoken at AIPAC’s conferences, stood by Israel after the October 7 attacks, talked about Jewish students on campus dealing with encampments and anti-Israel protests and has really been outspoken about rising antisemitism in this country. On the flip side, he also speaks to the more progressive flank of the Democratic Party, and has urged the party to do more intentional kind of outreach to anti-Israel voters who aren't committed to voting the Harris-Walz ticket. What do you make of him in this moment, as both a campaigner and then presumably, if elected, what would you make of him as a vice president?

Ron Kampeas: 

It's hard to say right now. Nobody was really aware of Tim Walz a lot outside of Minnesota until last week, but it's so funny because, you know, there was this whole push back against Shapiro from the far left because he was perceived as being – I'm talking about Josh Shapiro, the Pennsylvania Governor who was a front runner – because he was perceived as being too pro-Israel. 

But Yair Rosenberg did a really good job. I also did a little bit of reporting into this about how the other candidates, who other likelies that Kamala Harris were considering, are also pro-Israel, and Tim Walz has a long list of accomplishments, but you know, a measure of how fast this summer has gone, how crazy this political season has been, is this a week and a half ago, when Yair put up his story, he didn't even have Tim Walz in it. He was looking at Roy Cooper, he was looking at Mark Kelly from Arizona, and then, because nobody was even thinking about Tim Walz then, and now, he's the running mate. 

But from what you can see about him, and like, we just, JTA just did a big story about his master's thesis on Holocaust education, he's somebody who really wants to listen. His recommendation to the Republican Party, you know, he's coined this whole weird thing. That's actually why the Harris campaign noticed him, because he was the first to call the Republicans weird. I mean, the Republican candidates, but he said don't direct that at the voters, direct that only at the nominees, because we have to listen to the voters. And so I think that you can look at what he says about listening to the protesters on campuses in that context. For somebody who was born in Nebraska and lived most of his life in a town of 400 people in Minnesota, he shows, like, remarkably nuanced understanding of things that are of Jewish concern regarding the Holocaust. He's talked about how, you know, one can look at the Holocaust legitimately as an anomaly in history, but also understand it as something that could be repeated, which is actually Yehuda Bauer, the famous Holocaust historian's point. The way he boiled it down was that the Holocaust happened only to the Jews, but it can happen to anybody. And so that's Waltz's outlook, and it shows somebody who's really sort of read up on this and considered it in depth.

Julie Fishman Rayman:

Because you mentioned that Josh Shapiro had been very much in the running there, I want to get your take on the sort of social media trends of calling him “Genocide Josh” because of his pro-Israel statements and record. Is that just blatant antisemitism that we need to be mindful of, was it specific? Do you think it's just, you know, savvy opposition researchers? What do you make of that?

Ron Kampeas: 

You know, we often think of antisemitism as, you know, planning to be antisemitic and putting out a statement. There are people who are consciously antisemitic, but the much greater, the much more vexing problem is that, how, it just seeps into the discourse. We have a polarized society, and it's just very easy when you're opposing somebody to grab whatever is in the toolbox to harm them. And for anybody who's Jewish, I mean, you see this and we talk about it openly, you see it when we talk about women in politics, about how attacks on them can be gendered. And nobody, at least nobody on the left, complains about that. Actually, maybe they did a little bit. You know, the Bernie Bros made gendered attacks on Hillary Clinton, and they didn't denied it. 

But anyways, so you can say that attacks can be gendered, but it's hard to explain how attacks can also be antisemitic, because that's a tool in the box. And then a lot of people on the left don't want to acknowledge that. They slip into that. And I think that's what happened with Josh Shapiro. I think that there is for some reason, I mean, I can speculate as to, not even speculate – people have said why, even though he was just as pro-Israel as Tim Walz. He's like he's not less pro-Israel. But Mark Kelly did things that I'm sure Josh Shapiro wouldn't have done. Josh Shapiro doesn't like Benjamin Netanyahu. 

Mark Kelly, the senator from Arizona, went to the Netanyahu speech, shook his hand afterwards and applauded, and they didn't get attacked in the same way. And if you look at some of the reasons that Shapiro was attacked, they talked about his upbringing, his going to a Jewish Day School in the Philly area, and the things that he was exposed to, they talked about his going to Israel when he was a teenager. And those are things that are part and parcel of a lot of American Jewish upbringings. And so you can say those things are indicting, but there's a point, because you're an American Jew coming up in American Jewish communities, going to be exposed to a lot of pro-Israel. But at what point does that become antisemitic? Because that's just the natural part of Jewish life.

Julie Fishman Rayman:

I want to ask you another question related to the media. I want to sort of get your take. Last week, AJC and the Jewish Federations of North America published an open letter to media outlets generally, really identifying how so many of them got the Hezbollah attack on the soccer field in the Golan so, so, so wrong that, after a dozen Druze kids playing soccer were murdered in the middle of the afternoon, Washington Post, Houston Chronicle, others, just totally misrepresented the facts. The Washington Post headlined a story “Hezbollah denies responsibility for the fatal rocket strike.” It wasn't true. Hezbollah celebrated the attack until they learned that children were killed and then walked it back. And then doubling down, a later Washington Post story showed an image of the funeral of one of the children who was killed, but the headline read, “Israel hits target in Lebanon.” 

So if you only look at the picture and you only read the headline, you think it's a Lebanese kid that has been killed by a strike in Israel, not that an Israeli Druze kid was killed by a Hezbollah attack. CNN, AP, they all sort of downplayed Hezbollah's role in these really horrific murders. Is this ignorance? Is it bias? Is it both? And regardless, if we're sort of operating under this principle of journalist integrity, is this OK?

Ron Kampeas: 

No, it's not OK. I don't know what went on at the Washington Post. I was witness, kind of, to one of the most foundational episodes in bad media takes, which happened right after the Second Intifada began, and the AP put out a photo of a policeman helping up a Haredi Jewish kid who had just been knocked down or even beaten by Palestinian writers in Jerusalem. And the AP captioned the photo saying that the policeman was attacking a Palestinian on the Temple Mount, which is so funny because there's a gas station in the back of the picture and there's no gas stations on the Temple Mount. I mean, if you know Jerusalem, you know the Temple Mount, you know how crazy that is. And so, like, what had happened was that I knew the guy who was handling photo editing at the AP that night when he got this picture. And at the time – this is in the early days of the Internet and computers – the picture came across at the AP’s, Israeli photo agency affiliate, and Hebrew couldn't work on that machine, so, like, the Hebrew was scrambled. They captioned it in Hebrew. It was scrambled. 

So the guy calls up the other guy who's also tired, and he said, was this like some cop beating up a Palestinian on the Temple Mount? He said, yeah, sure, and that's how the thing goes out. So it's just, like, journalists can screw up in ways that speak to a certain underlying bias about the conflict. They expect to see certain things, but it's also can be stupidity and laziness and just screw ups at the last minute. I mean, I imagine that's what happened with the Washington Post front page, but it's awful, and it needs to be remedied, and people need to be more educated, and they need to pay more attention. I think you're right.

I think the way that the media has been treating the Hezbollah-Israel conflict in the north, in a way, differently than it treated, at least at the beginning, it treated Israel-Hamas. Hamas is clearly defined as a terrorist organization. Hezbollah is a terrorist organization. Hezbollah is an organization that's holding Lebanon hostage. Historically, people now think it was a big mistake to invade Lebanon in 1982. Hezbollah was partly an outgrowth of resentment of the Israeli occupation in southern Lebanon. But Israel withdrew to UN. They went to the UN and they said, you decide where the lines are. We're not going to decide where the lines are. 

You decide where the lines are, and we will withdraw that to that point. In 2000 Israel did that. Hezbollah continued to attack. Hezbollah launched a war in 2006 that Israel did not want, and conflict with Israel helps uphold Hezbollah within Lebanon. And so I think that because Hezbollah is a very proficient and weathered militia, they fought a war in Syria. They fought a terrible, genocidal war in Syria. They were on the wrong side of that, but they fought a war in Syria. They're good at what they're doing. So maybe there's a reflex to see this as a conflict between two militaries, but it's not. 

It's a conflict between Israel and a terrorist organization that unprovoked launched missiles inside Israel on October the eighth, even before Israel was striking back in Gaza as a means of solidarity with Hamas. And so I think that needs to be front, just as I think a lot of media, obviously JTA, but even a lot of like, you know, non-Jewish media always put out there that Hamas started this war. It needs to be reminded that Hezbollah also started its version of the war, and that Hezbollah, it's not an army that's accountable to any kind of civilian infrastructure, never mind a democratic one, like the Israeli army is accountable to elected officials. It's its own militia with a stranglehold on Lebanon. 

So yeah, I think that should be evident in everything that's written about that conflict, and maybe that's what helped distort at least the initial reporting from what happened in Majdal Shams, which is just horrible.

Julie Fishman Rayman:

One of the things that AJC is always trying to call on media outlets to do is to know who to call. Right, if there is an incident related to Israel that they don't fully understand, if there's an antisemitic attack and they need more context, to understand that there are Jewish individuals and organizations who can help to provide insight and texture and understanding so that their reporting can be more accurate. That's one of the recommendations in our Call to Action Against Antisemitism in America, recommendations for media. I wonder if, you know, journalist to journalist, if folks call you and say, “Ron, this is what we're writing, is this right?” Knowing that you are just such a font of knowledge, they should, this is what I'm saying. They should call you.

Ron Kampeas: 

My son asks me, I mean, very occasionally, I do get calls more having to do with my alleged knowledge of the American Jewish community and how it works and how it functions. I get calls about that. I think on Israel, less so because everybody's an expert. Everybody considers themselves an expert. Everybody flies in. I think what was an unfortunate standard. 20 years ago, it wasn't just the AP, it was all mainstream media, that you get your best takes from a foreign correspondent between three and six months into the assignment, because it takes them three months to learn it, but it takes them six months to go native, which is to sort of really understand the nuances. I think that's unfortunate, because I think going native, really understanding the nuances, sort of delving into a story, becoming familiar with it, becoming sympathetic in ways, with all sides to the story, actually enriches a story.

And I think that that's something that maybe you know, I've been doing JTA for 21 years. I've been in journalism for 35 years. I think it's great to have fresh outlooks. It's good. I think it's also good to sometimes rely on institutional knowledge and to listen to people who have been here before. It was weird at AP. I was in a position at AP when I wasn't allowed to use my institute for bizarre reasons. Institutional knowledge, you know. But it was funny, because at the outset of the Iraq War, the first day, the major Iraq war in 2002, 2003, I knew things that signal that it was going to go wrong, because I'd lived in the Middle East, and I wasn't the only one. By far, by far, there were a lot of people who knew those things institutionally. It means literally saying, like what the Israelis said in 1982, the Shiites are throwing rice and you had actual examples in 1982 of Shiites throwing rice at Israelis, and in 2003 of Shiites throwing rice at Americans. They want this. And it never works out that way. It goes awry. 

But nobody was listening, because people were too invested in a particular outcome to listen to the institutionalists. And I think that that's a problem. There's a reflex sometimes to say, oh, the institutionalists got it wrong in the past, because the world is still a mess, but that's not their value. The value of the institutionalists, and a great institutionalist just passed away, Martin Indyk, the value of the institutionalists is that sometimes they can actually say, this is where I went wrong, and this is what we misunderstood, and this is how we misunderstood it, and this is how we were deep in the weeds and we misunderstood it. And that's the kind of knowledge that I think shouldn't go wasted.

Julie Fishman Rayman:

Thanks so much for that perspective. I was going to ask you as a final question, if there was anything that you wanted to raise that we haven't discussed yet. But I would also add to that question, feel free to answer that question. Or is there something that we're getting wrong now institutionally?

Ron Kampeas: 

Yeah, I think that, you know, there's a lot that we're getting wrong now institutionally. I think that people are, and every side of the Israel-Hamas conflict are they retreating into sort of easy, reflexive understandings of what could go right and what could go wrong. I think that there is a value in understanding how toxic Hamas ideology is, that was, I think, grasped at the beginning after October the seventh, but has slipped away as this seems to be just a conflict, and people are retreating into Israel's bashing Gaza. We have to get it to stop bashing Gaza, which is fine, it's an outlook. It's a legitimate outlook, but it's one that's not going to register at all with any Israeli, unless you take into account how Hamas is perceived among Israelis as a genocidal organization. If it wasn't before October 7, it is now. 

On the other hand, I think that sort of reflexive, we can never have a two state solution. I'm not saying, advocating, for two state solution. We never have a two state solution. We're just going to go on as we've gone with the Palestinians. I think that also reflects this kind of like a reflexive blindness that you have to account for the Palestinians, somehow. Nothing is going to be imposed on them. They have to be agents and actors and whatever happens, and it might not happen in my generation, it might not happen in my lifetime, but that has to be back of mind. And I think for a lot of people, particularly in parts of the Israeli establishment, it is not back of mind. 

So those are things that I think that people can maybe, you know, if, if these competing, they're not actually enemies, I'm talking about people who are on the same side. They can be on the same side in Israel, they can be on the same side in America, but they're rivals, and they don't like to listen to each other. But if they did talk to each other and listen to each other, maybe they would find nuances that could get everybody to a better place.

Julie Fishman Rayman:

If we could do a word cloud of some of the themes that have come out of this conversation, listening is definitely one of the words that would be prominent. And I think it's not only a good aspiration, but I also want to highlight that our listening to you on these really important issues is revelatory, truthfully, and we're grateful for all the work that you're doing with JTA every day, but also for being here on People of the Pod with us and for all the wisdom that you've shared. Thank you.

Ron Kampeas: 

Thank you.

Manya Brachear Pashman:  

If you missed last week's episode, tune in for my conversation with AJC Jerusalem Director Avital Leibovich on what the widely reported deaths of two terror leaders last week could mean for Israel and the wider region.

“I cannot recall a moment where we have seen this kind of openly expressed antisemitism.” Dr. Remko Leemhuis, AJC Berlin Director, sums up the state of antisemitism in Germany post-October 7 with this chilling statement. Hear from Leemhuis, along with Asia Pacific Institute (API) Assistant Director Hana Rudolph, and AJC Abu Dhabi Director Marc Sievers, on how the October 7 Hamas massacre of Israelis has impacted Jews in Germany, Asia, the Pacific Islands, and the United Arab Emirates.

*The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. 

Episode Lineup: 

• (0:40) Hana Rudolph

• (7:18) Remko Leemhuis

• (15:20) Marc Sievers