Life with God: A Renovaré Podcast (Renovaré)

Nathan Foster has an in-person conversation with Mimi Dixon and Richard Foster about the two introductory books in the 2024-2025 Renovaré Book Club season — Richard's classic Celebration of Discipline and Mimi's Worth Celebrating (a book biography that explores why Celebration of Discipline started a movement).

Registration for the Renovaré Book Club 2024-2025 season is open!

• Celebration of Discipline by Richard Foster 
• Worth Celebrating by Mimi Dixon (Read an excerpt here.)

  Other articles, books, and podcast episodes by Richard Foster and by Mimi Dixon can be found at renovare.org

Deep relationships take time. Renovaré board and ministry team member Margaret Campbell shares with Nate what she's learned through the years about the slow and beautiful unfolding of true friendships — with people and with God.

"We invite the one who loves us into our awareness... and the Spirit at the same time is inviting us to be aware and be awake." Writer and spiritual director Jean Nevills talks with Nathan Foster how to be present to God in all of life.

Read Jean's original essay related to this podcast​, Light Enough to Live By.

Spiritual director and author Alice Fryling believes aging is an invitation from God to embrace our limitations and discover fruitfulness and transformation in unexpected places. 

Show Notes

[2:13] What was it like for you to write this book?

[5:07] As you’ve been aging, what has been happening in your soul?

[7:56] It’s interesting that the idea of living within our limitations is seen as a negative and something to be fought. Is part of aging learning to live within the limitations that have now presented themselves?

[9:58] As you are talking about your limitations, you’re smiling. How have you gotten to that place where this is not something to be fought and hated, but embracing where you’re at?

[14:29] In the book you talk about productivity and fruitfulness. Can you share about those things?

[17:51] Do you have a word for folks who are really struggling with navigating aging?

[25:57] Why do we fight growing older?

[27:52] You wrote a book on the Enneagram. How is that helpful in aging?

Resources

• Aging Faithfully: The Holy Invitation of Growing Older, by Alice Fryling
• Mirror for the Soul: A Christian Guide to the Enneagram, by Alice Fryling
• Alice's Website

Renovaré’s Education Program Coordinator Wendy Dean talks with Nate about wanting what’s best for our kids—and letting God’s vision of the best supersede our own.

Tina Dyer (Renovaré Board Treasurer) and Grace Pouch (Renovaré’s Content Manager) talk with Nathan Foster about the brilliance of Sojourner Truth and how her story has impacted their lives. Tina and Grace will lead the Renovaré book club through The Narrative of Sojourner Truth beginning on March 27.

Show Notes
[1:51] I am curious to know how you two discovered Sojourner Truth.

[4:26] How has her story impacted you two?

[10:08] What makes her credible?

[13:02] I think I know you two well enough to know that you're both open to having potentially difficult conversations about your experiences and about race. So what was that like for the two of you to explore Sojourner's life together?

[19:06] How would you like people to approach Sojourner's story?

[22:11] Could you share one [question from Sojourner that you’re sitting with]?

[23:10] What is your hope for people to take away from Sojourner's work?

 Resources:

• The Narrative of Sojourner Truth by Sojourner Truth, written by Olive Gilbert

• Beautiful Vessels by Bakht Singh, Sojourner Truth, Richard J. Foster, Tina Dyer, Grace Pouch

Matthew Lewis joins Nathan to talk about his new book Human and the beautiful way God designed for our deepest longings — when we give them our attention — to lead us home to Jesus.

Where to find Matthew

• The Follower Podcast: https://wearefollower.com/podcast/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattlewis516/
• Follower Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/we_are_follower/
• Website: https://mattlewis.co.za

Matthew's book — Human: How our deepest longings lead us home

Nathan Foster takes a famous quote from Julian of Norwich and festoons each phrase with his own thoughts. Come linger over Julian’s words in this audio retreat, with music by Joshua Banner.

Nate talks with author John Eldredge about healing from the trauma of the pandemic, benevolent detachment, what it means to consecrate your empathy to Christ, and learning to hear the voice of God.

Show Notes

[1:19] What was the impetus for this book?

[3:57] I'm glad to hear you reference the pandemic in this way. It has really baffled me how silent people are in terms of its effects. I think it’s going to take 5 or 10 years out of this to realize some of the ways that it has negatively impacted, and I wish people talk more about it.

[8:25] What do you think people should do (to heal their trauma response)?

[15:23] I think I’m hearing that instead of coping mechanism that don’t yield fruit or good results, but coping mechanisms that bring life.

[19:50] I really like the idea of benevolent detachment.  How do you detach and yet use your ability to change for good?

[24:26] One of the phrases I’ll use is trusting people to God.  As much as I would like to control and manage things, there are some limitations.

[25:06] What does this look like for you, and what are some of the challenges you face in moving into benevolent detachment?

[30:33] Why do you think so many Christians are hung up on the idea of hearing from God?

Resources

• Get Your Life Back: Everyday Practices in a World Gone Mad, by John Eldredge
• Beautiful Outlaw, by John Eldredge
• The One Minute Pause app

Author and teacher Jan Johnson joins Nate to talk about Jesus' parables that help us understand God's reign. The kingdom parables are the topic of a new book—created from Dallas Willard's teaching archives—and a companion workbook that Jan Johnson created.

Show Notes

The Scandal of the Kingdom Workbook

The Scandal of the Kingdom

Downloadable resources:

• The Foreword and Chapter One
• Chapter One of the Workbook
• Six-Part Sermon Series.

The original audio series (for The Scandal of the Kingdom) is being released week-by-week on The Dallas Willard Podcast.

Want to participate in a course on the book? You can join the interest list here.

Luci Shaw's zest for life is contagious. At 92, the poet and writer is still discovering and creating. She talks with Nathan Foster about her new book, The Generosity, her creative process, and her close friendship with Madeleine L'Engle.

Show Notes

[2:40] Where did the title of new book, Angels Everywhere, come from?

[3:37] The Generosity – where did that title come from?

[7:55] Would it be safe to say that your dad was a kind of inspiration and helped encourage you as a poet?

[12:48] How has your writing as a poet changed through the years?

[15:21] How would you like people to read your poetry?

[16:42] In which Luci reads a poem she wrote yesterday called April.

This day,
this springy day,
I claim the never-ending
Sky for ceiling
And in the little rooms of my life
I cultivate seasons
As if they are flowering vines
Growing across my bedspread.

And grapes maybe,
Or seeds,
Our promises of July
Sleeping underground
Waking and awakening
A green resurrection.

On all our ancient trees
Rising sap
Has thickened the twigs
Until they sprout a thousand
Honey colored catechins
Heavy enough to swing in the wind,
Flinging in the bursts of wild air
Their lusty spores.

Pollen,
Though it may be an affliction,
Promotes new life
And the cherry trees exploding
With their frothy pink blossoms.

It is all joy,
All gratitude,
All grace.

[19:42] What was it like working with Madeleine L’Engle?

[22:45] In which Luci reads a poem she also wrote yesterday called Daybook:

This day is a book still unfolding,
a suspense novel—
we recognize the genre
with clues from the morning paper.

We are beguiled by the headlines
of sun struck clouds
and dew wet enough
to rinse our hands in.

The plot is original.
We can only guess
how it will turn out.

So we follow the narrative arc,
reading it through
the burn and blaze of high noon
all the way to the last page.

Until like an ancient writer
the night writes fini
and the stars endorse
the grateful author.

[24:51] What would you say to folks who are thinking of writing poetry or beginning?

[30:26] In which Luci reads Pilgrim from The Generosity:

Meaning is a landscape
Of boulders.
There, ahead of you,
A thorny wilderness.
You cannot leap over it. You
Must conquer it stone by stone.

To traverse it,
You must find sure footing
And fortitude
In uncertain weather,
Your fear like metal
In your mouth.

And yes, it is possible
To walk the knife edge of longing,
A blade narrow
As the path to heaven.

Resources

• Cosmos from Chaos: Renovaré Webinar with Luci Shaw and Andrew Peterson
• Luci Shaw's Website
• The Generosity from Publisher or on Amazon
• Angels Everywhere
• People Luci mentions:
  • Clyde Kilby
  • Mark Jarman, poet
  • Andrew Hudgins, poet
  • Carolyn Forché, poet
  • Eugene Peterson, The Message (esp. Psalm and Wisdom book)
  • Winn Collier, A Burning in My Bones (Eugene Peterson biography)

How do we thoughtfully monitor and moderate our consumption of media? How can we fill our minds with what is good and beautiful rather than simply go to media to escape? This episode with Paul Patton—author, playwright, and professor emeritus at Spring Arbor—dives into these questions.

Show Notes

[2:38] I really liked the subtitle you guys came up with for the book. The book is Everyday Sabbath: How to Lead Your Dance with Media and Technology in Mindful and Sacred Ways. It’s a wonderful way to say everything that’s in the book. Tell us a little about the book.

[6:32] Could you unpack a little when you say “dance with pop culture?”

[8:27] Part of what I’m hearing in this dance is to be intentional, to not be a victim. How have you learned to take the lead in the dance?

[9:45] So if I conclude that I’m scrolling through stuff for reward or relief, does that mean I stop?

[11:00] One of the things I appreciate about the book is that this is road tested. The other piece I found helpful is the practices. Could you talk a little bit about how spiritual practices tie into our dance with pop culture?

[18:53] Do we know how to steward our boredom?

[20:10] Historically, when has the term binge ever been positive?

[22:08] A while back we did a podcast on your habit of memorizing, of stewarding the stirrings of your soul. Are you still doing this?

Resources

• Everyday Sabbath: How to Lead Your Dance with Media and Technology in Mindful and Sacred Ways, by Paul Patton and Robert Woods, Jr.
• Renovaré Podcast Episodes with Paul Patton: Leading the Dance with Pop Culture, Story and the Importance of Memorization, We All Have Secrets
• Soul Stirrings Podcast with Paul Patton

Brenda Quinn and Richard Foster join Nathan to talk about Richard’s new book, Learning Humility: A Year of Searching for a Vanishing Virtue.

Show Notes

[4:38] Dad, could you give us an overview?

[9:38] Brenda, what was your journey like as you were reading the chapters and how did this work for you as a Christ follower and a pastor?

[17:08] Dad, the humble mumble – could you explain that? How did spending this year and writing the book tie into that?

[18:44] Brenda, as a pastor, I’m sure you get lots of compliments. How do you handle those when people have nice things to say about you?

[21:21] A lot of people don’t know how to say I’m sorry or own up to things. And that potentially stems from (a lack of) humility, doesn’t it, that my ego is fragile enough that I can’t handle critique?

[22:45] Humility is really about freedom, would you agree?

[25:21] You were in an environment (in the university) where people not only ask you, but they expect you to have the answers. And it can be the same in ministry. Brenda, in your context, where is the freedom you experience as you learn humility?

[27:55] Dad, what surprised you in writing this book and spending the year on it?

[29:45] What would you say to someone listening to this, or they’ve read the book, and they say “I’m in, I want to grow in humility”? What should they do? Where’s a good place to start?

[32:59] But we can certainly get better, right? There’s improvement to be made.

[33:43] For people who read the book, what would your hope be?

[36:01] The thing I found really helpful about the book, that snuck up on me, was the allure. Why wouldn’t I want that? Seeing it as an invitation to freedom, to become our true selves, the self that God created us to be.

Resources

• Learning Humility: A Year of Searching for a Vanishing Virtue, by Richard Foster
• Humility, a Renovaré resource with selections from Learning Humility and Humility (by Andrew Murray)

Ted Harro joins Nathan Foster to talk about his unexpected journey to become Renovaré’s new president.

Show Notes 

[2:53] I caught wind that you were really pushing to get this position. Is that accurate? 

[5:51] What changed, to get you in a position where you actually did apply and follow through?

[8:23] How are you feeling about coming into the position?

[8:54] What first drew you to Renovaré as an organization?

[11:25] What was your experience like with the Renovaré Institute?

[13:06] How do you see your background as a consultant helping your work at Renovaré?

[15:49] What do you think it will look like in the coming years?

[19:23] I believe it was Carolyn who asked you, “Well, first hundred days, what are you going to do?” And I believe you just said “listen,” right?

[20:19] You don’t come in with an agenda. Is that accurate?

[20:44] What excites you about this position?

[23:20] What concerns you about stepping into this role?

[25:48] Favorite books?

[27:35] What’s this business about bread? 

​Read the related essay, Unlimited Liability: A Movement Towards Generosity.

Printmaker Sally Kendrick talks with Nate about the creative act of finding and printing specimens from nature as a way of cultivating "openness to the presence of God and willingness to receive the love of God." 

Sally Kendrick is a Maryland-based photographer with Carolina roots. She began experimenting with cyanotypes as a way of cultivating a habit of attentiveness to the beauty in the natural world around her. 

• Read Sally's essay "Attention Grows into Love" on renovare.org.
• True Impressions: Daily Prayers (artwork by Sally Kendrick) available for purchase or for free download.
• Sally has graciously offered some of her cyanotypes as downloads that can be printed locally.
• You can connect with Sally on Instagram at @turkeycreekprints.

  
  

Nathan talks with author Hannah Anderson about seasons, humility, and how the God we love in scripture is a God who is being revealed through nature.

Show Notes 

[1:24] Why do you write?

[2:19] How important is it for you to be honest in your writing?

[8:21] Could you share a little about your draw to the wonder and mystery in nature?

[10:38] How are you in nature, in terms of observing and being?

[12:37] What is it about seasons that you’re drawn to?

[15:06] Make the connection between your experience growing up and appreciating nature and scripture.

[18:04] What are some rhythms or practices for you, being in the created order?

[21:44] How did your book, Turning of Days, come to be?

[24:55] This summer in Colorado the wildflowers were off the charts. I’ve tried learning their names, and the names of the trees. I found in being able to name them, it enriched my experience. Is this a similar experience for you? Am I on the right path?

[29:55] In which Hannah reads a selection from Fall: Section 7 (p. 116)

Resources

• Turning of Days: Lessons from Nature, Season, and Spirit, by Hannah Anderson
• Humble Roots: How Humility Grounds and Nourishes Your Soul, by Hannah Anderson
• Hannah’s website, Sometimes a Light

Professor, pastor, and author Robert Moore-Jumonville talks with Nathan Foster about Orthodoxy by G.K. Chesterton.

Show Notes

[0:57] What do you like about Chesterton?

[5:09 ] How would you describe Orthodoxy to someone?

[7:32] I’m struggling with the term “dense,” because it’s not boring...

[12:41] For some reason I hear Kurt Vonnegut in Chesterton – the satire, the unexpected. Chesterton surprises me.

[16:40] It seems like a cultural commentary that has a lot of relevance for today.

[18:45] What are one or two significant impacts Chesterton has had on your life?

[23:46] How do you think Chesterton would like to be remembered?

[24:51] Can you tell us a little about your book?

Resources

• Orthodoxy, G.K. Chesterton
• Chesterton and Tolkien as Theologians, Alison Milbank
• The Kingdom of God in America, Richard Niebuhr
• Jogging with G.K. Chesterton: 65 Earthshaking Expeditions, by Robert Moore-Jumonville

Audrey Elledge and Elizabeth Moore, authors of Liturgies for Wholeness, join Nate to talk about the formational power of liturgy and friendship.

Show Notes

Books by Elizabeth Moore and Audrey Elledge

• Liturgies for Hope: Sixty Prayers for the Highs, the Lows, and Everything in Between
• Liturgies for Wholeness: 60 Prayers to Encounter the Depth, Creativity, and Friendship of God in Ordinary Moments

Also mentioned in the episode:

• Every Moment Holy (liturgy series by Douglas McKelvey and other authors)

Ways to connect with Audrey and Elizabeth:

Elizabeth Moore:

Instagram

Twitter

Audrey Elledge:

Facebook

Twitter

LinkedIn

Nathan welcomes author Sarah Clarkson to the show to discuss Scottish preacher and fiction writer George MacDonald—a key influence on Sarah’s literary career as well as her faith.

Show Notes

You can find Sarah writing regularly at her Substack, From the Vicarage (sarahclarkson.substack.com) or discover her books at sarahclarkson.com

Recommended by Sarah

1. Free online version of The Light Princess and Other Fairy Stories 
2. Free online version of Princess and the Goblins, one of Sarah’s favorite children's novels by MacDonald
3. Free online version of Lilith, Sarah’s favorite adult fairy tale by MacDonald
4. Sarah’s friend, Dr. Amanda Vernon, is a MacDonald scholar and children’s literature enthusiast.
5. A website dedicated to books, articles, art, and music about, or inspired by, George MacDonald's sermons, lectures, poems, prose, and prayers.
6. Recent Word on Fire edition of The Golden Key.

Inspired by the prayer chapter in The Divine Conspiracy, author and Renovaré Ministry Team member Emilie Griffin gives a talk on prayer at the 1999 Renovaré International Conference in Houston. It's followed by a special Q&A with Richard Foster and Dallas Willard.

The Renovaré Podcast with Nathan Foster returns with new episodes and a new name... Life with God. The next several episodes center the conversation around things that restore our souls—places of connection to God and gifts from the Lord that bring us inward healing. Katelyn Dixon leads off the series by looking at the creative act of writing as spiritual healing.

• Read Katelyn's writing on Renovare.org
• Visit Katelyn's website

Reward Sibanda joins Nathan on the Life With God podcast to share his insights on fasting as a God-designed process of total surrender through which our bodies, minds, and spirits grow wide-awake to God.

James Catford joins Nathan to talk about Jean-Pierre de Caussade's 18th century classic book on trust, Abandonment to Divine Providence — book 4 in this year's Renovaré Book Club.

Show Notes
James Catford joins Nathan to talk about Jean-Pierre de Caussade's 18th century classic book on trust, Abandonment to Divine Providence.

Join several thousand readers in the Renovaré Book Club to read Abandonment to Divine Providence (reading begins March 3, 2025).

• Join the club at a reduced rate 
• Purchase the hard copy or e-book
  
  

In this episode, philosopher J.P. Moreland shares honestly about his experience with severe anxiety, and the spiritual practices that helped him receive receive God's peace.

[1:08] I’m really interested to know how a philosophy professor ends up writing a book on anxiety and depression.

[3:53] The other thing you do that I found really helpful is that you address a lot of concerns that Christians might have about mental health or medication or self-compassion. Have you found that to be well-received or have you gotten pushback from that?

[5:35] One of the pieces that I found really helpful in the book is you continue to go back to all these practices and very practical things that have worked for you, yet leaving it open for not being totally prescriptive for people. I'm curious to hear a little about your journey with contemplative prayer and how that has helped you with anxiety.

[8:00] Could you say a little about the four-step solution process?

[16:50] What was it like to crash for all those months? Are you healed?

[22:10] How important were Biblical passages for you?

[22:40] What would you say to someone listening who is really struggling with anxiety and maybe has some self-condemnation or shame around it?

[28:45] For folks who have friends and family, spouses, that are struggling with anxiety, is there a word you might have for the best way they can love each other through this?

Resources by J.P. Moreland:

• Finding Quiet: My Story of Overcoming Anxiety and the Practices that Brought Peace
• jpmoreland.com

Winn Collier, director of the Eugene Peterson Center for Christian Imagination, talks with Nathan about hardships that shatter false hopes and the one reality that provides a sturdy place to stand.

Jill Weber is a prayer missionary and author who for the last five years has been establishing a new monastic community at the Waverley Abbey Estate in the U.K. Her desire is to cultivate "thin spaces" where Jesus is loved.

Show Notes

[2:12] Could you share with us about the Waverly project you’ve been working on for the past 5 years, and also about Order of the Mustard Seed.

[10:45] What does it look like for you personally to hold those practices and values in front of you.

[19:50] What do you say to people who are carrying a lot and not having room to go beyond their own family or the struggles that they are in? A friend of mine (Bill Vaswig) taught me much about prayer. When I go into certain spaces where there is so much suffering, and I’m just overwhelmed by it and don’t know what to do, he said, “Nate, you’re supposed to pray. You see all this so you can pray. Just walk around and lift them up.”

[25:25] What is your hope for the community at this old abbey; what would you like to see happen in the years to come?

[33:28] How does discernment work in your community? When you make a decision to move forward, what does that process look like?

[40:35] You can extend this to a church, ministry, family, or small group, to pause and ask if there are apologies that need to be made or repentance. God seems so intent on his children playing well together.

Resources

• Jill Weber on Episode 187: Holy Disruption
• 24-7 Prayer
• Order of the Mustard Seed
• Ruth Haley Barton, Pursuing God’s Will Together
• Richard Foster, Prayer: Finding the Heart’s True Home
• Transforming Center

The Prayer of Relinquishment

Nathan talks with Walter Strickland about his new book Swing Low and the way that the African American Christian experience adds crucial wisdom to living a with-God life.

A 20-minute meditation—an audio retreat—on Psalm 131. Put on some headphones, find a comfortable spot, and let your soul be quieted. This episode is a collaboration with Joshua Banner from The Invitation Podcast (invitationpodcast.org).

One of the highlights of attending a Renovaré conference back in the 1990s and 2000s was George Skramstad leading songs and hearing his "History of Worship" presentation from the piano. Nathan talks with George about worship as expressed in music and life.

Show Notes

[3:35] How did you get into music professionally?

[6:32] What do you like about music?

[8:00] When you are leading worship, what do you hope is happening?

[10:57] Why is the word worship synonymous with music?

[12:34] You’ve created a masterpiece that we get to talk about today, and I’m very curious to know how this came to be.

[15:48] Why do you think is helpful for folks to catch this big picture of the worship of Christians through the ages?

[17:58] Do you have a favorite era in church music?

Resources

• George's six part presentation The History of Worship.
• Article: The Story of Worship
• Article: Finding the Heart of Worship

"Each day is God's gift… But we have a choice." Jan Johnson talks with Nate about how to rejoice and be glad with the help of spiritual disciplines.

Find more Jan Johnson resources at janjohnson.org

In this episode, Nathan interviews Alan Fadling of Unhurried Living, Kristi Gaultiere of Soul Shepherding, and Steve Macchia of Leadership Transformations to discuss spiritual formation and soul care for leaders.

Show Notes

[5:45] Why leaders? What was it in you that you felt to compelled to move in that direction?

[9:55] What are some of the challenges that leaders in the Christian community face today?

[13:20] I’d take it a little further and say that in our current society it’s a virtue not to rest, to keep pushing through. How does a leader break out of that system that is pulling them do to more and more, and of being more closed, of not sharing or not feeling safe or that there is space to share?

[18:10] All three of you provide safe spaces for people. What would you say to someone who's not connected to a program or ministry that’s caring for their soul, who really wants to be open, vulnerable, honest? How do you do that when you’re surrounded in a community that needs you to have everything together?

[25:17] When we rest or slow down, sometimes emotions come up, and that’s quite normal. This is a unique season in history that is an opportunity for a reset, a chance to make some shifts. How can lay folk best help their leaders?

[31:45] What is the Biblical view of sabbatical?

[33:00] These 3 pieces of covenant and support and sabbatical – What if elder boards demanded a sort of health; not just encouraging sabbatical (and boundaries and rest and health) but demanding it, setting it as a way we’re going to be as a ministry. I think sometimes people just need a little permission to move into some of this.

[37:25] Do you have any thoughts for leaders or families on how to do this well?

[42:50] Can you paint a picture of a leader who’s doing things well, who’s functioning with health and being effective for the Kingdom. What does their life look like?

[47:26] How do you guys, as leaders, care for your soul?

Guest Websites

• Alan Fadling at Unhurried Living
• Kristi Gaultiere at Soul Shepherding
• Steve Macchia at Leadership Transformations

Katie Davis Majors shares her story of formation through suffering and explains the message of her book, Safe All Along.

How do pastors prevent burn out and keep first things first? Renovaré Ministry Team member Mimi Dixon shares insights and lessons from her decades of experience as a senior pastor.

Show Notes

[1:11] There's an article in Christianity today about pastors that you had mentioned to me. Could you share a little about that?

[6:35] What are some things that you think might be helpful for pastors in this season? 

[17:40] And this happened after you let go of the franchise mentality?

[21:32] How does the phrase “first things” play in all this for you?

[25:55] Is that way of doing ministry realistic in this day and age?

[27:58] I’m thinking of when you asked Dallas if he sinned. Could you share with folks the answer?

[36:16] Would you be up for giving a prayer for folks that are in ministry? 

Resources

• Renovaré Retreat for Pastors
• “First and Second Things,” God in the Dock pp. 278-280, by C.S. Lewis

In this week’s episode of the Renovaré Podcast, Nathan talks with Charles Moore, of Plough Publishing, about his upcoming book, Following the Call: Living the Sermon on the Mount Together.

Show Notes

[2:55] Why is the Sermon on the Mount so important to you at the Bruderhof community?

[7:18] Tell me a little about your process of making decisions about what to put in the book and what not to.

[10:40] I I'm a little embarrassed to admit that I have failed to grasp how this really was spoken to community and meant to be lived out in community. I'm really curious to hear what that looks like for you guys to try and live this out, and practically, day to day what this looks like.

[14:55] In compiling all the essays, were there new insights that you gained personally or different ways in which you begin to see the sermon on the Mount?

[19:05] Do you have a favorite?

[21:08] Give me your hope for readers. What is your hope for this book?

[24:00] Could you let people know a little about Plough? 

Resources

• Following the Call: Living the Sermon on the Mount Together
• Bruderhof Community

Mark Scandrette talks with Nathan Foster about seeing the world the way Jesus did, the hidden wisdom in the Beatitudes, and applying the Sermon on the Mount to everyday life.

Show Notes

[1:10] What was Jesus doing with these weird sayings, these Beatitudes?

[2:15] How do you think it was received by the hearers?

[4:38] In your work, you have 2 lines: “this is a new way to be human,” and “a journey back to reality.” Where do you take the Beatitudes for us today?

[6:15] Could you address this idea of our first instincts and new postures?

[11:40] Is there one that has been the most challenging or difficult?

[20:35] Is there a movement toward a practical practice as we move into this reality?

[22:50] This book was born out of practical labs. Can you tell us a little about that?

[25:50] What would you like to see happen for those who read the book?

[26:35] In your travels around the world, what have you picked up from Christians around the world that would be helpful for us in the West?

Resources

• Mark Scandrette’s Website
• The Ninefold Path of Jesus: Hidden Wisdom of the Beatitudes
• The Ninefold Path Learning Lab

Joe Davis and Nick Page have been friends for over 30 years and co-host The Mid-Faith Crisis Podcast. They share with Nate about disagreement as a productive part of friendship and faith that helps us work through concepts that impact our ability to love God and others.

Show Notes

• The Mid-Faith Crisis Podcast
• Some of Nick’s Books 
• Nick Page on microblog

Nathan Foster talks with Winn Collier about the penetrating and practical spiritual wisdom of 17th-century archbishop and writer François Fénelon.

Show Notes 

[3:42] Could you share a little about Fénelon? 

[10:35] There’s almost a level of pain that one needs to feel in order to find the comfort... I wonder if it's a season of life, if you’re in a space where you’re really needing a kind of brokenness.

[11:57] I would go beyond identifying [pain]... It’s giving a map.

[13:26] Do you know his influences, what shaped him in his life?

[15:18] What were you hoping to do with the book?

[16:45] What did you learn from the project?

[19:56] Do you get any indication that he was a person of joy?

[21:28] You can dip in anywhere in his letters ... I will usually read one at a time and just sit with it, reading it multiple times before moving to another one. Am I doing it right?

[23:07] Thoughtful, honest pastor—this reminds me of another friend of ours beyond the grave. How would you connect him with Eugene Peterson? Would you?

[24:17] How are things with the Eugene Peterson Center?

Resources

• Let God: Spiritual Conversations with François Fénelon, by Winn Collier
• Let Go, by François Fénelon
• A Burning in My Bones, by Winn Collier
• Eugene Peterson Center for Christian Imagination

Author and Spiritual Director Sharon Garlough Brown speaks about using the medium of fiction to connect readers to the God who grieves and suffers with us and enlarges our capacity to receive joy.

Show Notes

[2:23] Could you tell us just a little about your love of Van Gogh?

[5:12] Could you talk about how you work with fiction?

[7:13] You go into spiritual direction not really knowing where this time is going to go, but being open. Do you take some of that same posture into your writing?

[10:46] You've gone there in terms of writing about pain and suffering and some difficult topics. What has that been like for you?

[13:20] What do you hope for the reader?

[14:23] Do you see yourself as a fiction writer?

[15:48] How does your work as a pastor and spiritual director inform your stories?

[18:18] Could you talk a little about spiritual friendship?

[22:46] What will that look like for you in Scotland … with these losses?

[28:33] Could you tell us a little about Abiding Way?

Resources

Feathers of Hope, by Sharon Garlough Brown

Abiding Way Ministries

Sharon’s website

Hip hop artist and author, Sho Baraka, joins Nate to talk about refreshing our theology of work, strengthening the relationship between creatives and the Church, and adding variety to the genres and voices we turn to for spiritual nurture.

[2:08] Could you tell us a little about your book (its creation)?

[6:47] Could you say a little about help for creatives and what you hope to see?

[8:33] One of the things I noticed throughout your book is a concern with the devaluing of the oral tradition and folk stories in Christianity. Could you say a little about that?

[11:20] I’m wondering if there’s a connection [between devaluing oral stories] and losing some of the creativity in Christian life, church life.

[14:55] Your work in hip hop, is that carrying on the oral tradition? 

[21:03] Have you been to the African American Smithsonian?

[21:54] There is such a robust history and wisdom in the historical Black church that I feel is often lost on White America. Are there pieces of that tradition that you wish people knew or that you think would be helpful?

[25:11] Could you unpack the term “evangelical edit?”

[26:25] In your book you talk about a conversation you had with your daughter when she was seven, where she came and talked to you about her skin color and hair. Can you tell that story?

[29:51] What do you hope people will take from your book?

Resources

• He Saw That It Was Good, by Sho Baraka
• Album: “The Narrative,” Sho Baraka, 2016

Writer and editor Julia Roller joins Nate to talk about how God uses books to guide us into transforming ideas and encounters and shares about the book that changed her life.

Julia Roller is an author and editor living in San Diego, CA with her husband and three children. She is also the MomCo Coordinator at Point Loma Community Presbyterian Church. Julia's most recent book is Mom Seeks God, but some of her other books include A Year with God (with Richard J. Foster), A Year with Aslan, and 25 Books Every Christian Should Read. Connect with her at her web site, juliaroller.com, or on Instagram Julia (@julialroller) or Facebook.

Julia's suggestions for continued reading:

1. In “How Should We Read?”, Christopher Hall discusses some ways to slow down our reading and ruminate over the text. I love that although Hall’s thoughts are inspired by a desert monk (of course they are, Chris!), one of his suggested techniques involves his smartphone. 
2. I can’t think of anyone who’s written as much about spiritual reading as C.S. Lewis, and Zach Kincaid’s “A Reading Life” post on the official C.S. Lewis site is an admirable compilation of some of Lewis’s best thoughts about reading. 
3. Lyle Smith Graybeal and I wrote “How to do Spiritual Reading”, an excerpt from the introduction for 25 Books Every Christian Should Read, to offer some practical ideas for spiritual reading as well as some reasons why we should all engage in it.
4. Richard Foster reflects on the books that shaped him as a young man in this article from Leadership Journal, “How Significant Books Become Good Friends.” Many of these books made the cut for 25 Books Every Christian Should Read. 
5. My discussion with Nathan inspired me to look critically at my own all-consuming reading practice. In examining my lifelong love of reading, I had to ask the question: “Is Reading Bad for You?” (See if you can guess my answer.) 

This meditation by Nathan Foster on Luke 22 invites us to the Mount of Olives where Jesus prayed “let this cup pass from me.”

Special thanks to Chad Lawson and Dwell App for the music.

Podcast guest Carol Berry talks with Nate about how she came to know the life of Vincent van Gogh through the teachings of Henri Nouwen, and what she has learned from these two men about solidarity, compassion, and art as a way to touch people’s lives.

Show Notes

• [2:11] Can I tell you about how I discovered Van Gogh?
• [4:18] When did you first begin to love Vincent’s work?
• [7:25] What do you think Vincent was trying to say to people?
• [10:06] Those doors [of pastoral ministry] were closed for him, correct?
• [15:13] I’ve always been curious about Starry Night. The church light… why is it out?
• [16:56] What was it like to sit in Nouwen’s class in 1979?
• [19:05] The compassionate life… can you speak a little about that?
• [22:08] Did you get a sense of Henri’s favorite Van Gogh painting?
• [24:06] Is there any connection you see between the two [men’s lives]?
• [26:51] The end of Vincent’s life… what do you make of how things turned out for him?
• [29:33] You did another book on the spiritual life of Vincent. Can you tell us a little about that book?
• [31:01] How did these two men impact your life?
• [33:14] There’s an honesty in Vincent’s work that I don’t understand, but I think he told the truth. What are your thoughts on that?

Resources

• Learning from Henri Nouwen and Vincent van Gogh: A Portrait of the Compassionate Life, by Carol Berry
• Vincent Van Gogh (Modern Spiritual Masters), by Carol Berry
• Connect with our friends at the Henri Nouwen Society
• Renovaré Podcast Episode 63 with Deirdre LaNoue - The Spiritual Legacy of Henri Nouwen

"Responding well under fire, using power rightly, well-functioning, life-affirming." Those phrases usually aren't the first to come to mind for most who hear the word "holiness." In this interview, Richard Foster helps reclaim the word and remind us that a holy life is a beautiful thing.

This interview continues a series on the six major Christian traditions outlined in Richard's book Streams of Living Water. To dig deeper, see the Renovaré webpage on The Six Streams and Richard Foster's book Streams of Living Water.

"Let's all get maladjusted to a world gone mad," sings Carolyn Arends. In this episode, she shares two songs from her new album—"Maladjusted" and "To Cry for You"—and the stories behind them. You can find Carolyn's music at her website, CarolynArends.com.

Show Notes

[1:00] Tell us about your new album Recognition. Many of the songs feel like Renovaré-birthed songs.

[4:30] Did I have something to do with the idea behind the song Maladjusted?

[7:30] How do you decipher a cultural value that is not necessarily a kingdom value? How do you sift through what you should adjust to and what you shouldn't?

[12:40] Carolyn plays Malajusted

[14:25] What is behind the song To Cry for You?

[20:40] Grief is a good topic to be talking about now as people talk about our experience with the pandemic as grief. One of my favorite quotes is "feelings always come out." There is something about allowing ourselves to be in the suffering that births an ability to be in the blessing, the goodness, the gift.

[24:15] Carolyn plays To Cry for You

[25:50] Look for Carolyn’s new project – In the Morning - an acoustic worship album with songs that help unlock our hearts to what God wants to do in our midst.

Resources

• CarolynArends.com

Trevor Hudson talks with Nate about his new book, Seeking God: Finding Another Kind of Life with St. Ignatius and Dallas Willard, and unpacks what it means to be a “seeker” in a Christ-following way.

Show Notes

[1:43] I’m curious to know how you discovered St. Ignatius and how he’s impacted your life.

[3:30] What was that experience like for you, personally, to go through the Exercises?

[4:59] For those listening who don’t know, could you just give us a brief description of the Exercises?

[8:09] You’ve been able to lead people through the Exercises through these years. What have you noticed?

[9:51] How did you discover Dallas [Willard], and how has he impacted your life? What did that friendship bring to you and your family?

[12:46] How did the idea come to write a book involving these two friends?

[15:59] Tell us a little about the book.

[16:57] The term seeker, at least in the States, is usually referenced in Christian contexts as a non-Christian that the church is wooing in. You’re working with this word far beyond that. What does it mean to you?

[20:00] When Debbie referenced you as a seeker, is there a tension in that? Does she mean it all in a positive sense?

[21:58] Was Dallas right in saying you wouldn’t be content?

[23:18] What does that look like to embrace the present moment?

[25:05] What did you learn from writing this book?

[27:00] What are you reading these days?

Resources

• Seeking God: Finding Another Kind of Life with St. Ignatius and Dallas Willard, by Trevor Hudson
• The Divine Conspiracy, by Dallas Willard
• The Master and his Emissary, Ian McGilchrist

Renovaré Ministry Team member and pastor, Kai Nilsen, talks with Nate about what we can learn from recent disruptions to church norms.

Trevor Hudson shares reflections on the influence that Desmond Tutu had on his life — as a friend, colleague, cellmate, and “contemplative in action.”

Show Notes

• Desmond Tutu's Nobel Prize biography page
• Made for Goodness by Desmond Tutu
• Books by Trevor Hudson

Other Episodes With This Guest

• Ep 47: Trevor Hudson — Friendship with God
• Ep 73: Trevor Hudson — Holiness is Better Than You Think
• Ep 131: Trevor Hudson — Listen to the Groans
• Ep 154: Trevor Hudson — Meeting Christ in Our Tears
• Ep 153: Trevor Hudson — The Litmus Test for Lent
• Ep 215: Trevor Hudson and Jan Johnson — What Is Spiritual Direction?
• Ep 239: Trevor Hudson — Seeking God

Nate visited with Luci Shaw in her home and recorded this special episode about her life as a poet and the potential she sees in words to call us into conversation with the art form itself and with God.

For more, see the Renovaré webpage on The Six Streams and Richard Foster's book Streams of Living Water.

Mimi Dixon invites us to let Julian of Norwich teach us that “all shall be well" in this encore episode that first aired in 2017. 

Nathan welcomes Mark Buchanan to the podcast to discuss the wonderfully “reliable” spiritual practice of walking, which is the topic of Mark’s newest book, God Walk: Moving at the Speed of Your Soul.

Show Notes

[1:17] I’m curious, how long have you been a speed walker?

[2:09] What has your experience and practice been with walking?

[3:58] What did you learn from writing the book?

[5:48] What happens for you when you walk?

[7:58] A friend of mine gave me a quote: Those who work with their mind rest with their hands; those who work with their hands rest with their mind. I think of walking a little like I do silence—that it’s reliable.

[9:34] When you use the phrase “God speed,” what do you mean by that?

[16:08] What was your favorite chapter?

[22:06] What do you hope for people reading your book?

[23:03] You start the book referencing a friend of yours who is not able to walk. Could you give a word for people who are not able-bodied…?

[25:12] Are there other things you have learned from your indigenous friends?

[27:47] Any pilgrimages you have done or would like to do?

Resources

• God Walk, Moving at the Speed of Your Soul, by Mark Buchanan
• The Rest of God: Restoring Your Soul by Restoring Sabbath, by Mark Buchanan
• Three Mile an Hour God, by Koyama Kosuke
• The Reason You Walk, by Wab Kinew

"There are open vistas available to us in Christ," says Rich Villodas in this conversation with Nathan about the narrow path of Jesus and the quality of a life transformed by the perspectives and practices of Christ.

Show Notes

Rich Villodas is the Brooklyn-born lead pastor of New Life Fellowship, a large, multiracial church with more than seventy-five countries represented in Elmhurst, Queens. Prior to becoming lead pastor, he gave oversight to New Life’s small group ministry and served as preaching pastor. Rich graduated with a BA in pastoral ministry and theology from Nyack College. He went on to complete his master’s of divinity from Alliance Theological Seminary. He enjoys reading widely, and preaching and writing on contemplative spirituality, justice-related issues, and the art of preaching. He’s been married to Rosie since 2006 and they have two beautiful children, Karis and Nathan.

You can find Rich on social media @richvillodas 

The Narrow Path (Rich's new book)

New Life NYC (Rich Villodas' church)

Mariah Velásquez, Director of the Incarnatio Center for Formation and Integration at Westmont College and Associate Director of the Martin Center, joins Nate on the Life with God podcast to talk about a favorite book—Brother Lawrence’s The Practice of the Presence of God.

Show Notes

1. Book excerpts: 

• Practicing the Presence of Christ 
• An Habitual Sense of God's Presence
• Living Each Moment with a Sense of God's Presence

2. Lectio 365 Prayer App - A helpful way to re-orient to God's presence in the morning and evening.

3. Content from the Martin Institute's recent academic workshop, "A Crisis Among Us: The Problem of Christian Immaturity" is available here.

4. You can find Mariah's writing on Conversatio.org

• The Practicing of Presence. 
• A roadmap report on spiritual formation 

In this episode, Nathan talks with author and musician Michael Card about hesed, an untranslatable Hebrew word that expresses God’s love and faithfulness. Michael believes it may be the most important word in Scripture and spent ten years writing a book to unpack its meaning.
---
Show Notes

[2:29] What would you tell your younger self?

[3:05] What is it that you care about these days?

[6:16] You wrote a book about one word. Tell us about the book.

[9:22] What does the word mean to you personally?

[10:31] How do you live into it?

[15:05] I’m noticing in your writings and in your music this love of Scripture. Where did that come from?

[18:31] What do you hope people take away from the book?

[22:25] How do you personally work with Scripture these days?

Resources

• Inexpressible: Hesed and the Mystery of God’s Lovingkindness, by Michael Card
• Michael Card’s website
• “Hymn to the Kindness of God,” from his album To the Kindness of God

Terry Wardle of Healing Care Ministries shares how an emotional breakdown at the height of his “success” in ministry played a pivotal role in moving him from information about God to encounter with God, from performance-oriented to grace-oriented, and from broken to beloved.

Show Notes

[1:00] I'm really curious to hear a little about your story.

[5:32] When there's a pressure in our life, there's a potential gift because we break… Do you find yourself grateful for that?

[8:33] To be willing to look at oneself with God—would you agree that there's a strength that requires from people?

[10:38] What would you like to see the Church do or become in terms of spaces that can handle brokenness or have a word in suffering?

[15:00] We can't take people there [on a healing journey] if we haven't been there ourselves. Would you agree?

[16:14] Do you “walk with a limp?”

[18:57] Have you found…that what often emerges in the healing is something beyond what you or others can imagine, that it's different and wonderful in ways we can't see?

[22:14] You mentioned community earlier. What is the role of community in this?

[24:50] When you were in the hospital…What would have been helpful from your friends there? What could they have done during that time?

[27:48] Could you share a little about the work you're doing with Healing Care Ministries?

[30:07] I'm curious, if you're willing to share, what was your encounter that you had with Jesus those many years ago?

Resources

• Healing Care Ministries website
  
  
• From Broken to Beloved, by Terry Wardle

• Some Kind of Crazy: An Unforgettable Story of Profound Brokenness and Breathtaking Grace, by Terry Wardle

• The Flame of Love, by Clark Pinnock

Nathan talks with prison chaplain John Paul Westin about the penitentiary as parish and learning to see each person there as God's "friends and special ones."

Show Notes

A few annotated book suggestions from John Paul:

• Cur Deus Homo — Anselm of Canterbury thinks about why God needed/chose to become human.
• The 3 Colors of Community, Christian A. Schwarz — How highly flawed individuals can use their propensity to sin to help build healthy Christian community.
• Fearfully and Wonderfully, Dr. Paul Brand and Philip Yancy — The human body (sick or healthy) can show us so much about the wonder of God and our human nature.
• The Shack, William Paul Young — God can heal the deepest wounds and betrayal.
• John's Gospel, John son of Zebedee — A look at life through the eyes of the beloved.
• Life of the Beloved — Henri Nouwen's beautiful consideration of the nature of Jesus' friendship.
• The Brother's Karamazov — Fydor Dostoevski's brilliant and crazy story of God's presence in a chaotic Russian family life.
• The Heart of the Parish, Martin Thornton — Seeing wherever you are as your parish and your life as filled with your neighbors and parisioners. Everyone.
• Hearing God — Dallas Willard's encouraging challenge to believe Jesus when he tells us we really can talk to God like we talk to one another.
• Reading the Bible with the Damned — Bob Eklad's believes that people on the margins often have intense experiences of God's involvement in their lives that are of biblical import.
• Letters and Papers from Prison —Dietrich Bonhoeffer's reflections on seeing God's loving presence in prison and how it transformed his thinking.

Eighteen century preacher and abolitionist John Woolman, whose journal is a Renovaré Book Club selection, had a profound impact on Renovaré founder Richard Foster, who like Woolman is Quaker. In this episode, Richard discusses the life and work of this humble yet bold follower of Jesus.

Show Notes

• How did you discover John Woolman’s Journal?
• What was it, as a college student, reading Woolman’s journal?
• Woolman’s first experience with slavery.
• The story of Benjamin Lay.
• Woolman dealt with the three great isms of our day: racism, militarism, and consumerism.
• Could you help folks understand a little about Quakerism and the Friends?
• Tell us about your doctoral dissertation.
• What would you hope for people reading the book to take away from it?

Resources

• The Journal and Major Essays of John Woolman, edited by Phillips P. Moulton
• Join the Renovaré Book Club to read Woolman's book in December 2021

Mimi Dixon shares how the life and words of Catherine Doherty—a pioneer for interracial justice and mentor to Thomas Merton—helped her to return to her first love.
 
Resources

• Poustinia, by Catherine Doherty
• Catherine Doherty writes about prayer and sacraments as ways to welcome and know the presence of God in “First Meet God” 
• Luminous Lives, a Renovaré e-course hosted my Mimi Dixon

With gratitude for the life of Donn Thomas, we share this episode from the Renovaré Podcast archive (originally aired April 13, 2020). Donn speaks with Nate about his cancer diagnosis and other scary situations, and how God's presence helps us move from fear to confidence.

Robyn Wrigley-Carr returns to the Renovaré Podcast to talk with Nate about Evelyn Underhill—the 20th century author, spiritual director and retreat leader—and about Baron Friedrich Von Hügel, whose spiritual direction transformed Evelyn’s life with God.

Show Notes

[2:15] Here’s a quote from Eugene Peterson: “The most extensive and inviting introduction … a brilliantly written book.” How did it feel to have read that about your book?

[3:49] Could you tell me what is a baron and who is said Baron that was so impactful on Evelyn’s life, and on Eugene’s too?

[6:56] What were [Von Hügel’s] health issues?

[8:59] Why did [Von Hügel] only want to see [Evelyn Underhill] twice a year?

[ ] What would you say were some of the key components in [Evelyn Underhill’s] own formation?

[ ] Who were some of these folks that were influencing [Evelyn]?

[ ] I find it helpful to hear [Baron Von Hügel] doing spiritual direction in a very different way than we think of it... What would you say were some of Evelyn Underhill’s contributions to the discipline of spiritual direction?

[ ] What about [Evelyn’s] life inspires you?

Resources

• The Spiritual Formation of Evelyn Underhill, by Robyn Wrigley-Carr
• Evelyn Underhill’s Prayer Book, by Robyn Wrigley-Carr

Show notes

What is visio divina, Viv?

And how do you do that?

What you're saying is that it's something we do all the time.—it's just taking a little extra pause or intentionality with what we're seeing?

Can I do visio with nature… look out my window?

What is your practice? Do you find a painting and say, “I'm gonna spend a half hour with this?”

So it would be a little like sitting down to read a book. I'm gonna sit down and read visually, like a painting or a scene. Is that how you would do it?

What is your practice for selecting a piece to use and how do you get a certain space in your house or what?

You mentioned you don't watch television. Does that tie in?

How does this fit into the practice of retreat, or does it?

How does that practice [of choosing art for a space] tie into retreat … for example, you've built a retreat house?

What do you look for when you go on retreat?

What kind of experiences are you hoping to craft with the retreats at the house?

...

Find out more about Vivianne's retreat house, Vilayala.

Nathan speaks with one of his favorite authors, Marilyn McEntyre, about why “words matter more than we can imagine.” She explores words as sacraments, as creative forces, as conveyors of truth, and as precious ingredients in the feast called conversation.

Show Notes

[2:21] Where did your love of words begin?

[4:52] Could you explain a little about how caring for words is a moral issue?

[6:34] How about words as art?

[9:15] You take this beyond writing and poetry—into normal conversation?

[14:41] How do you use words as a spiritual practice?

[18:53] What would you say to folks who are just beginning to think in terms of using words with some intentionality?

[21:54] Do you speak other languages? What does that change for you reading in languages besides English? Does it open up a different world for you?

[25:40] I was really moved by your section on felicity. When a word goes out of use in a culture, is it representative that that thing has gone out of use?

[27:55] Do you like Noam Chomsky and his work?

[33:09] What's your “one sentence” about the book?

[34:47] What gives you hope in our culture today, connected to words?

[39:02] What I was hearing was words as a way to love others, to love what's good and right, to care enough about the words we use. 

Resources

• Marilyn’s website: marilynmcentyre.com
• Books by Marilyn McEntyre (a sampling)
  • Caring for Words in a Culture of Lies
  • Speaking Peace in a Climate of Conflict
  • When Poets Pray
  • Make a List: How a Simple Practice Can Change Our Lives and Open Our Hearts
  • Word by Word, A Daily Spiritual Practice
    
    
• Richard Foster describes Lectio Divina
• “Politics and the English Language,” essay by George Orwell
• No Passion Spent by George Steiner

In this edited version of a June 2021 webinar conversation, spiritual directors and authors Trevor Hudson and Jan Johnson talk with Carolyn Arends about Christian spiritual direction. They contrast it with counseling, discuss if it's for everyone, and recommend where to find a director.

• For spiritual direction resources and the full unedited replay, visit the webinar page.
• Browse previous Renovaré Podcast conversations with Jan Johnson and Trevor Hudson