Facilitation Lab Podcast (Douglas Ferguson)

“Wherever you go, there you are. You're always bringing your family dynamics into it, so you just have to figure out who's who in the dynamic of whatever you're experiencing in the room, and then once you know that, you'll understand what's getting triggered, and you can work together to move through it.” -Patti Dobrowolski

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Patti Dobrowolski about her career helping teams navigate growth and change.  She starts with how her background in Theater has influenced her career.  Later, Patti shares her journey of awareness that has helped her make it easier for people to connect to themselves and us.  We then discuss how and why to include play at work.  Listen in for the steps to help bridge states of consciousness with the groups you’re facilitating.   

“And it seemed to me that so many of the problems and issues that we face in the world were down to this increasing connectivity, increasing complexity that we weren't really suited to deal with. And so it dawned on me that conversation was the tool that we could use to make better sense of the world.”

David Gurteen, director of Gurteen Knowledge, is best known as the creator of the Knowledge Café – a versatile conversational process to bring a group of people together to learn from each other, share experiences, and make better sense of a rapidly changing, less predictable world.

In this episode of Control the Room, Douglas speaks with David about street epistemology, virtual knowledge cafes, and David’s interest in astrophysics. Listen in to find out how conversation can help us make better sense of the world.

“One of the most common things that I'm hearing is, ‘thank you for sharing’.  It drives me nuts because there's a big part of me that is just like, there's no ‘thank you’ needed.  I didn't share that for your gratitude to be received. I shared that because it was on my mind. And so I think what I fear is happening is we're starting to have this conversation about let's listen. Let's just take time to listen. Without having been trained on what to do after you hear things. And I don't know if we're quite ready to really deeply listen without having to know what to do.” -Bre Gentile

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Bre Gentile about her unconventional career path transitioning from Academia to tech to Founder of her own lab.  We discuss the amazing knowledge she has gained in trauma and toxic stress research and how she was able to leverage her lived experience to help app designers, UX researchers, and other creatives become more trauma-informed so they build more accessible products. We then talk about using friendship as a tool to develop emotional intelligence, empathy, and deep listening skills. Listen in to learn strategies for developing self awareness and empathy at work.  

“That's what I nerd out on. I really love this idea of how...organizations create environments where they can push decision making down to the edges, so...they become a complex organism that's way better at engaging with the world and creating value in the world.” -Teresa Torres 

In this episode of Control the Room, Teresa Torres and I examine her diverse career journey centered in human-centered design, where she helps organizations embrace and optimize the complex dynamics of team decision-making.  Teresa shares the benefits that organizations can gain when they embrace the “messiness” of collaborating in complex systems and the opportunity they then have to “empower the edges.” We discuss Teresa’s approach to the  “decision making trio” that occurs during group decision-making and the value of listening to individual team member’s unique perspectives Teresa also highlights how an organization can interview its customers using an empathetic approach, and the corresponding revelations that can arise when teams “do the work in their own research.” Listen in to hear Teresa’s take on how to work together as a team when complex problems arise in your organization and gain the skills necessary to make effective decisions for your team and your customers.  

“I think about creativity as toggling between wonder and rigor to solve problems and the way we can get better at that toggling, the way we can get better at exercising our creativity is through what I call the three I's. And the three I's are inquiry, improvisation and intuition.”

Natalie Nixon is a creativity strategist and president of Figure 8 Thinking, where she helps leaders achieve transformative business results by applying creativity and foresight. As a global keynote speaker as well as author, editor, and contributor of multiple writing publications, Natalie communicates awe and inspires teams around the world to reach their maximum business value.

In this episode of Control the Room, I talk with Natalie about polymaths, dance, fashion and gratitude. Listen in to see how wonder, structure and grace can make the major difference in an organization when interconnected.

“And to your earlier point about complexity, most of those kinds of models and titles and bands and blah, blah, blah, are complicated solutions that don't serve well in complexity. And so my job as an org designer is to say, what is the lightest most elegant, most intuitive solution that equips us to navigate complexity rather than what is a complicated and over-engineered solution that doesn't actually do anything to cut through complexity, it's just an exercise that we have to go through.” -Rodney Evans

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Rodney Evans about her 20+ years as an adaptive organization designer and future of work consultant.  She shares how rebellion first lead to her interest in helping teams explore new ways of working together and self-managing systems.  Later, Rodney asks some great questions like: “what does it take to help teams thrive?  What are some good foundational agreements for teams?  And what does participatory change look like?”  We then discuss the criteria for filtering out bad clients to work with.  Listen in for inspiration on how to build the shared responsibility to help teams execute their own change.  

“When you look at what's happening with the population, boomers aren't getting any younger and they've got plenty of discretionary income and a lot of the solutions that are out there aren't very friendly feeling to that population. And it's hard to design for a group that you've never been a part of or that you don't know anything about. It became really important to me to be part of teams where there was a wide variety, not just of backgrounds and races and genders and that sort of thing, but also across the age spectrum that you had people who had lived experience of all of the customers that we might be facing, not just the ones who looked like us.” -Jennifer Houlihan

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Jennifer Houlihan about her experience transitioning into the UX Design industry later in her career and teaching other adult learners.  She starts with how a project working at a local Non Profit exposed her up to UX Design.  Later, Jennifer discusses the importance of lifelong learning and keeping a beginners mindset.  We then discuss how and why to include play at work and while learning.  Listen in for tips on how to activate different learning models for your students and yourself.

“It's to stamp out boring workshops around the world forever because i think if you do have the opportunity to bring teams together or people together that's kind of sacred time so how do you get and this isn't about getting the biggest roi but how do you make it more meaningful and a once in a lifetime opportunity for them? - Leanne Hughes

In this episode of the Control Room podcast, Leanne Hughes, author of "The Two-Hour Workshop Blueprint," shares her secrets to designing and delivering workshops that are efficient and effective. Leanne emphasizes the importance of being purposeful and grounded as a facilitator, and discusses the concept of co-creating to achieve real collaboration. She also shares her process for post-workshop reflection and follow-up, and encourages facilitators to let go of control and find balance. Listen in to learn how to create meaningful experiences that leave a lasting impact.

“There is a phenomenon in quantum mechanics where vibrations of energy actually have an effect around them, on their environment and the other. You've probably heard that in quantum mechanics, you can actually observe a quantum phenomenon and by observing it you've changed it. It's the strangest weirdest thing. Well, you go out there in the world and you reflect a certain positivity. It's astonishing how it creates momentum of positivity.” -Neal Foard

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Neal Foard about his latest initiative spreading messages of positivity on social media.  He shares how he stumbled into his role as a social media influencer improving people's day.  Later, he shares stories for why he has faith in humanity during these divisive times.  We then discuss the importance of finding a tribe of people that you vibe with.   Listen in for more inspiration on how to practice positivity.  

“We're doing all of our education right now remotely, using Zoom and thinking through, okay, how does learning happen there? What's kind of uniquely possible—I like those words—with that medium? And how can we capture those moments? It's not a replacement. It's like, oh, it's going to be just like things that happen face to face. Like, no, it’s different, but also good. And how do we get to that different-but-also-good place?”

Dr. Dawan Stanford

In this episode of the Control the Room podcast, I’m pleased to be speaking with Dr. Dawan Stanford of Fluid Hive, a design-driven innovation company. As president of Fluide Hive, Dawan helps organizations to see, solve, and act on challenges that are complex, dynamic, and interconnected.

Dawan and I talk about pushing energy into a room, checking in with people, and his experience with remote learning as the Design Studio Director of Georgetown University’s Learning & Design program. Listen in to find out how Times New Roman ended his legal career.

Show Highlights

[1:30] How Times New Roman ended Dawan’s legal career

[10:33] What’s in it for the Participant

[18:39] Cut the Tools Some Slack

[24:56] Writing a Detailed Agenda, then Adjusting it

[28:36] Pushing Energy into the Room

[33:29] Checking in with People

Links | Resources

Dawan on LinkedIn

Fluide Hive

About the Guest

Dr. Dawan Stanford, President of design-driven innovation company Fluid Hive, helps organizations to see, solve, and act on challenges that are complex, dynamic, and interconnected. He has experience in Silicon Valley and international business that he combines with design, design thinking, and academic research in his work at Fluide Hive.

Dr. Stanford is also the Design Studio Director and a Professor of Learning & Design at Georgetown University. His studio serves as a space where students integrate their core coursework in the program, develop as learning practitioners, and develop their leadership, collaboration, and facilitation skills.

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation agency that helps teams work better together with custom-designed meetings and workshops, both in-person and virtual. Our master facilitators offer trusted guidance and custom coaching to companies who want to transform ineffective meetings, reignite stalled projects, and cut through assumptions. Based in Austin, Voltage Control designs and leads public and private workshops that range from small meetings to large conference-style gatherings. 

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Intro: Welcome to the Control the Room Podcast, a series devoted to the exploration of meeting culture and uncovering cures for the common meeting. Some meetings have tight control, and others are loose. To control the room means achieving outcomes while striking a balance between imposing and removing structure, asserting and distributing power, leaning in and leaning out, all in the service of having a truly magical meeting.

Douglas: Today I’m with Dawan Stanford, president of Fluid Hives. Welcome to the show, Dawan.

Dawan: Hello. Thank you for having me.

Douglas: Of course, so excited to talk facilitation with you. And for starters, one of the things I love hearing from guests on the show is how they got their start, because there's not really any college out there that you can go take a facilitation degree. And so most people find themselves in this work through many different channels, and there’s always an interesting story, and so I’d love to hear how you found your way into this amazing work.

Dawan: Well, I'm a designer, and my path into design started many, many years ago with some professional training and photography, and that led to looking at layout and then studying color and then studying graphic design. And as I progressed in that career, I had a legal career for a while, and I realized that I stayed late to design the closing binders for the client because the normal design was Times New Roman, centered, and you put some things in bold and underlined them. Like, oh, no. We can do something better than that. And after spending a couple hours designing closing-binder covers, I got a look from one of the partners: Maybe you're not one of us. Like, maybe I'm not. So I found out like, no, I'm not one of you. 

And as I started doing more and more work, I was looking at more and more moments where it was design together, creating together, bringing groups of people together to understand how they need to work, how they are working, how they understand the context where they're working. And so I began to take a very close look at my role in those moments, those conversations, and how to be very intentional about constructing them, because it's a precious thing when you have a handful of people in a room, or more, focusing their attention on one endeavor. And to be offered that gift is something that I want to take seriously and treat carefully.

Douglas: Yeah, it's interesting. I love this notion that it wasn't that long ago when we started to have a plural form of priority. 

Dawan: Mm-hmm.

Douglas: I think focus is the same way, right? And so this notion that, hey, we can have more than one focus or more than one priority is very modern thinking. And I think it's a disservice to us, and facilitation techniques can help us get back to that, like, and get everyone kind of aligned in thinking in the same way so that we can actually make some real progress.

Dawan: Yeah. Making those choices ahead of time and those tradeoffs. I often look at the situations where I'm leading a group through something and kind of start to think about all the different people involved, because often the person who's sponsoring, has asked me to come in and help, isn't necessarily going to participate. Sometimes they do. So you have the sponsor, you have participants. Then, there's often someone that the sponsor is reporting to, which may be one or more organizations or maybe someone in their chain, and starting to think about how all of these people have expectations and needs. And there may be people downstream from the event or facilitated moment that need to do something with what was created. So how to think about what gets built and passed on and how that is captured and packaged is also a piece of it.

Douglas: You know, I love this. That's your design background coming into the center, right? It’s like, how do we make sure to design in a way that considers and accommodates all these various people, because they're all going to come from different perspectives, different roles, different needs, and how do we design for them?

Dawan: And so often, people will be asking for an event or a workshop or a moment, and I'll hear a lot about the thing, and “We want people to do this. And we have this much time, and this, this.” “Well, what problem are you trying to solve? Let's talk about sort of the thing that individually or organizationally you are hoping to accomplish. How will the world be different, how will your world be different when we're done?” Then we can start talking about like, “All right, well, what kind of thing actually solves that problem? And maybe it's a four-hour thing instead of a two-hour thing. Maybe it's a two-hour thing instead of a four-hour thing. Maybe it's something that we need to come back to over a series of weeks.” 

But one of the first conversations I often have is, number one, listening to how people are framing up the problem they think they're trying to solve, because people don't like to hear that they're wrong about that. And so it’s how you listen. And I say, “Okay. How do you know?” Because what I want to know is, okay, here's the problem you think you're trying to solve. What evidence do you have about that? And sometimes they’re, “Oh, well, this is what's happened in the past. Here's what's led to this. Here's how we decided that this would contribute to this trajectory.” Okay, I can kind of take that as a given. But often I hear like, “Oh, well, we had some space in the schedule, and we were hoping to…” Then I want to dig for a meaningful problem for both them and the participants, for the sponsor and the participants, so that I don't come and do something, and then afterwards people are, “Hey, wait a minute. That wasn't a great experience for us. You didn't do a very good job.” Like, “Oh, because I helped you solve a problem you didn't really have.” So that's a key first step in the conversation for me.

Douglas: Absolutely. You mentioned, how do you know? Another question that I think is similar to that is, how will we know? And it’s the, how will we know if we were successful, and did we actually get the outcome we were seeking? And if we're not clear on the outcome, we can't even articulate that ahead of time. So, you know, how do we design in some of these assessment points so that we can tell if we did a good job or not?

Dawan: Sort of following on pretty much on the heels of the, “what problem are we trying to solve?” conversation, beginning to map out high-level options on an experience and suggesting, “Okay, here's where we might end up with this path,” and suggesting a couple of different paths so that the sponsor can start to have the conversation about like, “Okay, does this look like a win for you? We're heading toward, we can achieve this, this, and this in this amount of time and with this level of resourcing. Is that going to be worth it? Is that going to be a worthwhile use of both time and money and energy?” And having those conversations explicitly on the front end makes things so much easier, because once you have clear objectives, once you have a clear idea of the problem that you're trying to solve with the experience, then you can say, okay, I can get into design mode with what's happening from minute to minute without having to sort of guess and hope, and, like, show up on a day physically or virtually, and say, “I hope this works out,” as opposed to, like, “I'm fairly confident that this is going to work,” barring the usual emergencies that we encounter during facilitation.

Douglas: Yeah. The thing that was kind of coming to mind for me as I was listening is this kind of scenario that you're creating, where you're allowing them to peer into the future, but let's consider that this is the outcome that we’re at, and they can kind of sit with it, because you're right. So many people get so fixated on the thing that they need to go do, especially if something becomes really hip and really, I don't know, there's really trendy. Like, for a while it seemed like everybody was doing hackathons. I think some people still do them. But when do you think to yourself, “I need to have a hackathon,” and your thoughts are so focused on the what that you're not actually peering into, well, what's that going to generate for us? What's that going to...? What kind of new opportunity or a new position does that put us in? And I like the framing that you were sharing around, because we talk a lot about purpose and outcomes, but the way you were describing it was really about setting up this kind of vision into this future scenario, where it's like, oh, this is the way the world will be if we do this. And how does that make you feel, or what does that create for you?

Dawan: Yeah. And it's helping the sponsor articulate what is uniquely possible with this group of people in this moment, and how can we start to approach making that happen? because it's, you’re just like, oh, insert hackathon here. Well, no. What is the thing that we need and this group of people needs from this moment?

Douglas: Also, earlier, you were talking about what I translated to be buyer versus user, at least that's the language we would use in the startup world, the software world. In the facilitation world, I guess we would say sponsor or stakeholder and participant. And coming back to that design background you have, I think it's really fascinating to think about, if we're not considering both in our outcomes and how we structure the flow of the day or the flow of the event, then we could potentially design something that's at a disservice or is not properly tuned for one versus the other. And often I think the sponsor is the one, or the buyer, is the one that gets a lot of the attention.

Dawan: Yeah. The sponsor gets a lot of the attention because they're kind of in the room when you're designing. But the participants have to have not only have a good experience, but you have to understand what's in it for them so that they're going to bring the energy. They're going to be open to the flow of experience. They're going to be open to doing hard work at an intense pace, because the pacing of the events that I build is really, really tight. It's flexible, but tight. And we can we can talk about the mechanics of that, but it's mapping out who all of the people are. And you could say stakeholder or user or customer, but all the people. And that includes sponsor, participant, any people upstream who will be using what you produce. Sometimes it's also the people who are served by the people in the room who will be, perhaps, the ultimate beneficiary of some of the ideas that are put together in the room. And it's, “Okay with all of these people,” and then you can start to map out, “Okay, here's what this person needs out of the situation. The participants kind of need these things.” And you can also start to think about all the different relationships to the work, because sometimes part of the responsibility of the facilitator is to deepen relationships between participants or to help amplify ways people have connected in the past to do a particular bit of work.

Douglas: I love this notion of thinking about relationships or the interconnectedness of the group, or the lack thereof, and how that impacts the work to be done or how the work that is done is impacted, impacting the future states of those relationships. I think that way of thinking, almost, like, you know, it's a micro social network, and you’re applying some almost network theory to it a bit and thinking about how you mend relationships or how you lean on existing ones. I think that's a really powerful design tool or lens to apply, and I like that way of thinking about it. I hadn’t really thought about it from that perspective before.

Dawan: I owe many debts of gratitude to different designers and design researchers, in particular, Indi Young, and she really talks about the difference between the problem space and the solution space, and people like to race into the solution space without doing the hard work to understand the people and how people are making decisions and why people are behaving the way they behave. And if part of the work is getting into behavior change, to even more wanting to understand the people before you start setting up what happens in the room or what happens online, and especially her work around listening and how to listen well. I've taken that both into the sponsor conversations but also into the room, when I'm thinking about how to bring the deep listening that helps everyone really be fully present in the space.

Douglas: It's amazing how much presence and deep listening could just have vast impacts across all meetings. And I often love to ask folks, if you could change one thing about any meeting, where would it be? And I think that might be—it’s hard for me to choose because we think about and work in this space so much, it’s like, oh, man, there's so many issues. But I tell you, that's so prevalent, this attendees just spending majority of the meeting thinking about what they're going to say next, and a lot of it's just because they don't want to sound dumb or they want to say something impressive in front of leadership. But I think there's a real missed opportunity to not worry about those things and to create safety for people just to speak however they speak and let the ideas flow. 

And so I guess I'm curious. That brings me to that thinking around these moments in meetings that could be so much better. What kind of things start to surface for you as you think about things that could be and people could just do in their everyday meetings?

Dawan: Oh, my gosh. Here comes the avalanche. Well, it's starting off before the meeting, what problem are you trying to solve? What is it that can only be done by bringing this group of people together and being clear about that before people get in the room or on Zoom or wherever? And then it's being conscious, like giving people space to think. And one of the things that I do in most of the events that I create and sometimes in meetings is give people a moment to write down what they're thinking. And it's just a few minutes, sometimes 10 minutes, depending on the length and depth of what we're working on. But then you give everyone a chance to get their thoughts down. That says a couple of things. You have people who are reluctant to speak, and that's because of power in the room, because of personality, because of relationships, because of trust, because of a whole bunch of things. So you have reluctance to speak. Then you have people who are—just need a moment to get a handle on sort of, “All right, what do I think about this? What do I really think?” 

And the other thing that you get when you do that writing, especially in longer events, is you're able to capture some of those individual thoughts to process later after the event. So you're setting up what happens after, depending on how you structure what's captured. So that's one thing. Make sure there's enough space for people to think. 

And then there's time and being disciplined about time, saying, okay, we have this list of things, and this isn't necessarily an agenda, but it's saying what's most important for us to get accomplished and then allocating your time across those most important things. That way you can say, “All right, we're confident that we're going to get these most important things done. And these couple other things, maybe we can take care of those offline or in a different way.” Those are a couple of things. 

The other thing, and this is perhaps harder—can be harder—in meetings, depending on who you are. But it's just looking at the energy of the people who are in the room and helping people come into this space well. And sometimes that's taking moments so everyone can check in with each other. And those couple of minutes to reset and be human can help people attend to the business at hand faster and better. And I've noticed that when I've given people those, a little bit of a buffer and a chance to be human, it just made what follows really, really nice. And that's one of the advantages if you're meeting remotely and every everyone's remote, you can put people into one-on-one conversations for a couple minutes, because often you have the meeting dynamics of, oh, my people come in and they sit by who they sit by, and they say hello to say hello. But, you know, people get patterns. They have people they're closer to and people they know better. And you have the opportunity to force some of that mixing and build some of that team cohesiveness through those conversations, just with a couple of flicks of a switch in your favorite meeting software.

Douglas: Yeah, it's interesting. Brings up two things we spoke about in the preshow chat. And the first is anytime we're thinking about design, space becomes a very critical element, whether we're talking about negative space or what have you. And I think in the virtual world, the tools we use can impact the space that we provide for our attendees and for people who are experiencing the design that we've laid out for the meeting and the session. And one of the things you mentioned was there's just too much blame being pointed at the tools themselves.

Dawan: Yeah. Taking your in-person meeting practices and not changing anything and just dumping them into—I think everyone’s in front of a laptop. Everyone’s in front of a camera—probably not going to work so well. And there's a decent chance that the meetings weren’t so great to begin with, and now you're expecting that to work better in a different context, where you have different kinds of feedback, different kinds of interactions. 

I've been watching the sort of emergency online-education conversations play out. There’re lots of people saying, “See? This whole online-education thing doesn't work.” Like, well, when people have three days to take an entire university online, I don't know, who might want to cut them some slack on that because what can you do? But people are starting to see other deeper examples of designed online education where you have the instructional design team working with faculty. And these are conversations we're having a lot where I teach at Georgetown in the master’s in Learning, Design, and Technology. And we're doing all of our education right now remotely, using Zoom and thinking through, okay, how does learning happen there? What's kind of uniquely possible—I like those words—with that medium? And how can we capture those moments? It's not a replacement. It's like, oh, it's going to be just like things that happen face to face. Like, no, it’s different, but also good. And how do we get to that different-but-also-good place?

Douglas: That's amazing. You know, so much of the work we do is about kind of accelerating innovation, and so people can get it in their heads that it's about moving quickly. And just because we're accelerating action doesn't mean that it means that everything we have to do must be fast. And in fact, a lot of it is about taking the time it requires to design things carefully. But what we don't want is analysis paralysis, where we're just kind of spinning our wheels and just thinking about things. As long as we're making progress and doing things, then allowing the design process to take the time it requires, that's goodness. That's good stuff. It results in better outcomes.

Dawan: And I like that, allowing the process to take the time it needs. Because I— in one way or another, I often said, like, listen, you're going to kind of pay the price of this now, or you're going to pay later. 

Douglas: That old analogy or that old saying of, if you think an expert's expensive, try working with a novice. 

Dawan: Yeah. If you don't take the time— I remember a conversation. It was like, “Well, we really don't have time to really do this work you're talking about around the problem we're trying to solve, the problem space. We really need to just get in there and do this and that.” And I say, “Okay, well, I understand what you're saying. How much time and resources do you have to do all of this over again?” And they say, “What?” It’s like, “No, no, no. I just want to make sure that if we're taking this approach, that you can reinvest all of this to do all of this work again in case we get the problem wrong, because then we can just sort of jump in and guess because you have this huge stack of resources to burn.” And usually they're like, “Oh, no, no, no, we don't have extra money. We don't have extra time. So, yeah. Maybe we should spend a little time increasing the chances that we're solving problems that are worth solving.”

Douglas: Yeah. It's always a Tilt sign for me when someone comes in and they've got it all figured out and they just want a price. It’s like, hey, I'm not selling cars here. I can't just say, this is what it’s going to be. And, you know, it's always, how much is it? And I think that mentality of innovation in a bottle on the shelf is something that would give the allure that that's what's happening, but it takes a lot of care and a lot of time to design and extract out where the there is.

Dawan: Well, I've learned to be very clear around the expectations of what's possible within the boundaries of the work, because there is this—I think we're past the moment a little bit. But there was this moment maybe five years ago when it was the design as magic. It was like, oh, it's magic. It's the Silicon Valley juice, and drink it. You will sprout innovation. You will sprout market cap. Like, it's amazing. Like, oh my gosh, an IPO just fell out of my body. No. It doesn’t work that way, and there are some people who also, like, heard that, went out and bought some, it didn't work. Like, oh, this doesn't work. And it’s like, “Oh, yeah.” And it’s like, you probably said, “I will pay x,” and someone said, “I will take x,” and then you were surprised you didn't get the results, as opposed to someone who says, “Well, what problem are you trying to solve? What are you hoping to accomplish? What are you looking to invest over time in doing this work well and building the skills of your team to do this well?” because ideally, after working with me for a while, people no longer need me. I hate to want to do that to myself, but if I'm doing my work well, eventually it seems like, “No, we've got this. We can build on our own,” or “It's been built into the organization.” Sometimes people will just want me to come in and do. But those are the things that I get happy about. Like, “Oh, you want me to build something that will last longer than I'm there? I like that.”

Douglas: Yeah. There’s legacy. We're making a difference in the world.

Dawan: Yeah. And it’s also seeing what good design can do once it takes root in a culture. It's not, once again, going to be somehow magical, but I would say it will be better. And better varies from place to place. But I like to see that, or even just to see people taking away little things. 

One of the things that I do with all of my engagements is I create a very detailed facilitation guide, and I have it all the way down to one-minute increments for different things. And I showed one of the—someone I work with one of these. They’re like, “Are you crazy? People will be late for this, and this will run long, and that will...” I know. But now that I've thought through it at this level, I know that when something goes wrong here, I know where to adjust and how to adjust. And so once you have that problem to resolve in the outcomes, then you can say, “Well, these people are trying to get to know each other, so a five-minute break here isn't really going to work. They kind of need 10 minutes. And how can we make sure the mingling happens? How can we make sure that people are in the relationship-building phase as opposed to a relationship deepening? So how do we build that into the breaks, or if there's a lunch or whatever the moments are? And that requires getting really granular on paper so that during the event you can roll with the opportunities, whether it's a tech fail or sort of one moment that is better than you expected. I don't want to interrupt this, because the thing that we wanted to happen at 4:00 p.m. is now happening at 11:00. So I'm not going to get in the way of it. I'll just have to redesign.” And it gives you something to tweak, something to adapt.

Douglas: And I love this mantra from, I think it comes from complexity-in-form thinking, and definitely heard it in the Liberating Structures community. But what happens was meant to happen. And it's very much akin to what I heard you say earlier around embracing the uniquely possible. 

Dawan: Mm-hmm.

Douglas: So going back to this concept of participant energy and taking into consideration all the fatigue we're all experiencing, and also someone could have had a crises, even though we've done some upfront research and exploration into where the team’s at and the dynamics, when we walk into the room, things could be quite different. So I'm curious to hear what you've done in scenarios like that or what you do to prepare for things and be ready for the unexpected.

Dawan: Well, I leave a cushion in every event of a certain amount of time, knowing that sometimes different things will run over. I design every break. So if I have a five-minute break in the schedule, and I tell everyone, “Hey, it's time for five-minute break,” I have 10 minutes built into the schedule because five-minute breaks always take ten minutes. And those are some of the mechanics on the how I'm connecting with people. I'm assuming, and especially sort of now as we're recording in the summer of COVID, that people are coming into the event fragile and burned out. And so one of the things that I try to stop and do is give people a chance to check in and talk. I'm assuming they’re, like, “Hey, your social interactions are kind of not happening the way they used to. Your coping mechanisms have all been broken and reshuffled.” So it's helping people have just very human conversations and easing into the work, and I also find taking more breaks, not expecting people to sustain the intensity as long. 

When I'm in the room with people, it's very easy to read the energy. And I find a lot of the work is me sort of pushing energy into the room. And you can do that to an extent. You’re like, “Well, what do you mean, pushing energy? Is this some sort of mystical, reiki thing? What are you doing?” Well, it's making that eye contact, giving people the big smile, and getting the big smile back, and doing that with lots of people moving around in the space, giving people a different place to focus in. And when I'm doing that virtually, it's a lot of time sort of scanning the faces on the screens, but recognizing when like, “Oh, you know, we need to do sort of an impromptu small-group thing,” and mixing up the types of interaction, the types of things people are seeing on the screen, so it’s not just, oh, you’re seeing other faces. Sometimes there’s going to be oh I don’t know, images, diagrams, but also using if you have any kind of whiteboarding or drawing overlay in the software that you're using, I take it home to mark things up. One of the things I do in small groups, we’ll actually get giant sheets of paper and draw with each other, and that pulls people in. And you can do the same thing virtually. 

You know, those are a couple ways I think about just the energy in the room and keeping it going. And also, you have to recognize that there may come a point where people are just done, and it may come before you want it to, but there's nothing you can do about that. The thing I do structurally is I try to put sort of the high-intensity generative things earlier in the schedule and the playing with, making sense with, tweaking of things that are sort of already out there later in the day so that it's kind of organizing and making sense of and playing with so that you're not being called upon to do the mentally intense things or the things that are going to rely on a lot of your interpersonal skills around negotiation and figuring things out late in the day. That tends to be, oh, if people are going to run out of steam, you start to see it in the outputs late in the day. So I try to push some of that earlier in the day so that by the time we are getting toward the end of things, it’s like, okay, these are lighter-lift activities and exchanges.

Douglas: Even during break times, I like to remind people to turn off their video and step away to remind them not to go, just jump in the email or whatever, because it’ll only contribute to the fatigue later. 

Dawan: I've had a sort of working-from-home career, so the adjustment wasn't quite as brutal for me. I've done my share of time in the office, but I was just used to sort of having my studio in the house and doing everything that I needed to do with the short commute and managing the time and interaction and getting my people time in and having the energy flow. And when you're having to learn those things and adjust those things, especially if it doesn't suit your personality, that's when it can be difficult. And in meetings, it's recognizing that you might have some people who are very comfortable with the screen and the environment and how the technology flows, and other people may be just straining against it because they're desperate to be within touching distance of another human being and get that high-fidelity interaction with micro expressions and scents and all sorts of things. 

Douglas: Yeah. The dynamic’s completely shifted. And in the in-person realm, you could have folks that are quiet and don't ask a lot of questions. Those same folks might ask a lot of questions when they're virtual because just that layer of glass and many, many miles of air is separation enough to where they feel more comfortable speaking up. And other folks, you know, like you say, are debilitated because they don't have all the signals they're used to having. I think it's a great reminder that facilitators, we just have to listen, and we have to bring in as much data as we can from the signals we have. And you mentioned reading the room. I'm curious which signals that you use to read that digital room, because that can be problematic.

Dawan: Well, in some ways, they're the same signals. I'm looking for, for example, give a set of instructions. I'm looking for the brows that are suddenly furrowed. And usually when people are sort of squinching their eyebrows together, that's their way of saying, “Those instructions were unclear to me.” But people are reluctant to say that. They'll sort of dive into it, thinking that they're the only one who didn't understand. And probably not. It's probably that your instructions were unclear, and you need to try that again. 

And another thing is just actually checking in with people. The underutilized chat function, for example, in Zoom, there’s so much that you can do with that, because when you're in a sort of face-to-face environment, you have kind of one channel in terms of, there's like, yeah, there’s sort of visual cues and all that. But let's just say that there's, like, okay, you're going to say something or make a gesture in some way. But if we're actually going to talk, it's going to be voices. Whereas in Zoom you have the voice, you have the chat feed. Sometimes there’s another backchannel if everyone is, say, in Slack. And so you have all of these multiple channels. And that's a different kind of conversation because now you can have people dropping in web links as someone is presenting, asking questions that can be picked up later, and so you have these multiple threads going on. And if you're looking for, oh, we want this to be just like our in-person meetings, that's really distracting. Like, well, that's a huge opportunity for people to just drop in questions as they think of them. And you come back and weave them in. You have if one person is presenting, you have someone else on the team keep an eye on the chat. So there are, I think, huge opportunities presented by that in the different channels. So the reading the room becomes kind of an interactive, participatory process. Instead of one person reading in the face-to-face contacts, you have sort of multiple people nurturing the conversation via those multiple channels.

Douglas: Yeah. And those things become elements you can design for, because I think in real life, we've spent years and years so it’s in a lot of ways just second nature, so we don’t consider it much like when we just walk into a room, because we can rely on our innate skills at relating. And sure, as facilitators we sharpen them, but we kind of have matured to a point, I feel, that it's not always a consideration, but in the digital space, you know, thinking of how many co-facilitators do I want? Do I want someone on Slack or Zoom chats, watching that stuff? So to me, it's really become a design consideration before we even enter into the meeting itself.

Dawan: And we're still figuring out the opportunities. I like to say, okay, well, before I sort of add other tools, add other functionality, what are the ways we can sort of tweak what we have, twist what we have so that everyone's like, “Oh yeah, there's these simple tools”? Sometimes it's as simple as “Okay, get a piece of paper and a pen, and everyone turn off your cameras and sketch out how you think this holds together for a few minutes. And then we'll have the conversation,” so that you're even having someone, they’re not stepping away from the meeting, but they're stepping away from, “I just have my keyboard.” You're like, “Oh, I get to draw for a minute.” And it's using those simple opportunities to make the exchange extremely rich the same way it would be if everyone was in the room. 

And there have been a couple of instances where I was happy that everyone was online, because I knew that their interactions, we wouldn't have been able to have if everyone was face to face. So like, for example, having 20 people have one-on-one conversations and doing several rounds of those, after you've done that and everyone's had a chance to chat for a few minutes with three different people in the room, now you're set up differently as a group for what happens later, as opposed to if you were sort of face to face in a room doing that and having 10 conversations all going on in a conference room, it’s just like, oh, you can't really, like, having trouble hearing, and there's overhearing, and you can't just focus on one person. There's all this distraction. So people are able to connect that way really fast, really deep, which is nice. 

So it's finding those things that are the opportunities presented by the challenge of leading and collaborating as we sort of adapt to our world as it changes.

Douglas: Yeah. To use your words, we're embracing what's uniquely possible with these new tools.

Dawan: Yeah.

Douglas: Excellent.

Well, I think that might be a great spot to stop here on today's show. But before we go, I think listeners will be really curious how to find you, how to connect with you. You're doing some great work, and I know some people are going to want to know how to reach out.

Dawan: Oh, thanks. While I'm easy to find at fluidhive.com. If you search my last name, you will get a university. But Dawan Stanford, there aren't many of them, so that's another easy way to find me. LinkedIn and Twitter are good places to look. You can also learn more about the learning-design work that I'm involved with at Georgetown in the master’s in Learning, Design, and Technology at Georgetown University. And you can also check me out on the Design Thinking 101 podcast, where I am hosting that show.

Douglas: Excellent. Yeah, definitely check it out. And Dawan, it's been a pleasure chatting with you today. I hope we stay in touch and continue the journey together.

Dawan: Oh, well, thanks for having me. It’s been a ball.

Outro: Thanks for joining me for another episode of Control the Room. Don't forget to subscribe to receive updates when new episodes are released. If you want more, head over to our blog, where I post weekly articles and resources about working better together, voltagecontrol.com.

"If you don’t have those underpinnings of being anchored to something, it’s really difficult to do anything else. That’s just baseline sort of human functioning."- Kellie Artis

In this episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast, host Douglas Ferguson converses with Kelly Artis, founder of Mission Identity, who empowers women through the Enneagram. The discussion highlights the transformative power of facilitation, particularly through Kelly's experiences in the George W. Bush Institute's Veteran Leadership Program. Kelly shares her journey into facilitation, emphasizing the importance of psychological safety, empathy, and deeper connections in group settings. She reflects on how effective facilitation goes beyond traditional teaching, fostering meaningful interactions and personal growth. The episode underscores the impact of creating safe spaces for dialogue and collaboration.

“Well, it's funny you say that, because the biggest issue I find is that people overestimate their ability, simple term is cultural competence, but more accurately is, they overestimate their ability to navigate across cultures effectively. They think they're in one place, because they made an investment. They're super excited about this work. They know it's the right thing to do. They made the business case for it. They're totally invested. However, they don't have the skills to actually navigate those conversations effectively. When subjects around race and racism come up or other issues, they find themselves using a lot of their lizard brain where they're fighting, fleeing or freezing. And so when those conversations come up, their ability to actually navigate is really diminished because they haven't figured out for themselves personally how to sort through the moving parts they're going on.”

Kazique Prince is the Founder & CEO of Jelani Consulting LLC, where he works with businesses and nonprofits as a DEI consultant. He also serves as the senior policy advisor and education coordinator for the City of Austin’s mayor, Steve Adler, and has launched a nonprofit called Courage Equity that’s aimed at funding educators who focus on cultural fluency.

In this episode of Control the Room, I talk with Kazique about empathy-driven inclusion, psychological awareness in the workplace, and how reconciliation affects all aspects of an individual’s life. Listen in to catch a glimpse of what reality could look like if we shifted our collective focus from punitive scrutiny, to empowering practices.

“The moment I became conscience that I was operating from a certain script, being the instrumental script, I started my own developmental journey, both in the domain of social-emotional intelligence and maturity and on the other side in looking at thought structures in teams and in groups and seeing how the scripts that I was using implicitly and the maps that allowed me to take perspectives, to integrate perspectives in teams and in all kinds of communications, hindered me and how I could break out of those patterns.”

Jan DeVisch is an executive professor at Flanders Business School, where he teaches organizational development and human capital design. He is also managing director at Connect and Transform, where he helps teams and organizations cope with increasing complexity.

In this episode of Control the Room, Douglas speaks with Jan about reducing reality into logical categories, software that can help facilitators pre-assess a team’s communication patterns, and resistance as a concept invented by the facilitator. Listen in to find out how to level up your facilitation skills through scientific research in the field of adult development.

“We need more people being of service. And it's not just the appointed tech host, it's their responsibility. You could have teams of people where they know all of these skills, they're going to function better as a team because they know how to behave this way. But I think still there aren't enough tech hosts or service-minded people in these meetings to be able to do that.” - Heather Martinez

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Heather Martinez about her career serving clients with graphic recording and facilitation tech help.  She starts with how her experience graphic recording led to her new business.  Later, Heather discusses why it’s important to create your own graphic style.  We then discuss how our views have an impact on how wwe show up in the world.  Listen in for tips you can learn from calligraphers, sign painters, and graphic artists.  

“The main objective is to drive economic impact for our city, for our province, for our country. So, we need to give a platform to entrepreneurs to have their brand shine, but we also need to architect them meeting people. So, how do we source the audience? How do we create moments of connection throughout the experience? How do we hype people before the event to come and discover these talents? That's really kind of what's driving the whole vision. That's how we're thinking about designing our stages, our content. That's how we're thinking about having a lot of collaboration and all the activities that we're doing because we want to multiply the number of times people will collaborate and will meet humans." - Anick Beaulieu

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Anick Beaulieu about her experience designing impactful collective moments for C2 in Montreal.  She shares how having the right questions lead to a creative vision.  Later, Anick explains why intention is the key to collective moments and conversation.  We then discuss fostering tan health and connection in times of crises.  Listen in for more inspiration in using flagship events and collaboration to drive economic development in your region.

Coming soon. Subscribe now.

“Well, with this pandemic, I decided I'm going to buy a Nintendo Switch. And I bought the Switch, and I'm very excited because everybody talked about Animal Crossing, and I was like, "I can't wait to play." And "I can't wait to play Mario Kart." And so, I got my Switch, and years ago I had carpal tunnel issues in my right hand, and so I started doing a lot of things with my left hand. And when I use this controller, after a while my hand starts to hurt. And I just think, "There's no accessible controller for the Switch." There is for Xbox, but I did actually just find an accessible controller that can lay flat, but it's only available in Japan at the moment for the Switch. I was like, "Why isn't this available in America?" I mean, so, give me the options, right? Just give me the options to do things differently.”

Regine Gilbert is an Industry Assistant Professor at NYU, and the author of Inclusive Design for a Digital World: Designing with Accessibility in Mind. As a UX designer, she has educated peoples domestically and internationally concerning the value of widening the boundaries of what we deem possible, and necessary in design.

In this episode of Control the Room, I talk with Regine about Nintendo, VR and accessibility as a byproduct of observation. Listen in to see how awareness fuels innovation and inclusion for an audience that needs it. 

“The spontaneity and the collaboration effect are definitely more prevalent inside of the asynchronous on-premise environment. However, do I want to give up all of that deep work for that type of spontaneity? Because a lot of the time spontaneity is a distraction in another... You call it spontaneity. I call it a distraction. I call it, okay, this is the seventh time someone's walked into my office today, and I actually just really need to get this email sequence written as an example. And I can't actually get it done because I've had these spontaneous conversations throughout my workday. So a lot of these times they can end up looking like distractions when a lot of people call them collaboration and spontaneity. So I'm not quite clear actually on where that's going to go. But I have seen this happen a lot inside of the corporate world where people just get into meetings because that's the flow of what they should be doing. But the reality is that you could actually, as you said, turn a lot of those meetings into an email.” -Liam Martin

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Liam Marin about his experience building conferences and software for Remote Work advocates.  He shares why he builds products and services that are defined by the concept of giving workers the flexibility to work wherever they want, whenever they want.  Later, Liam offers tips on how to manage Remote Work with asynchronous communication.  We then discuss connection vs. free work, ideas vs. execution, and management vs leadership.   Listen in for Remote Work trends and predictions.

“ I did this project at one point when I was a teacher with my students where we built these dual compost in the trees. I came back a year later and one of the families that received a dual compost in the tree, and they helped work on it as well, they were using it as a closet.  Another family that had received one and worked on it as well were using it as a bathroom only for very, very important persons. So I was like, "Wow, we built this thing. It was technically correct. It worked. It function. But the people didn't care for it, didn't necessarily want it, didn't show ownership of it, didn't know how to maintain it, couldn't repair it if it's broken, et cetera." And that's when I started this journey of like, "Oh, how do I bring in the human element into all of this?" Because I wasn't taught any of that. None of the social science stuff about human needs or human factors, et cetera.” -Victor Udoewa

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Victor Udoewa about his varied work experience that brought him to his current position as a Service Design Lead at NASA. He explains how his experience as an engineer, educator, International Development Specialist, and health and trauma councelor helped him land a job designing educational software for Google.  Later, Victor shares his thoughts on Integrated Design, Asset based problem solving, Defuturing, Reworlding, Ontological Design, and Hyperlocality.  We then discuss the importance of including community members in the design process.   Listen in for reasons why facilitators should give up power to better attend to the needs of the people they’re serving.  

“I'd say the feminine is the magician, and the masculine is the warrior. And those are two archetypes that are used in union and different types of readings that I've read of archetypes. So with that, I would say that this article lays out that there are about 28, I believe 27, 28 leadership competencies, and it shows the feminine expression and the masculine expression. And how that ties to my work is that I sometimes will be coaching someone, and I'll notice that they are sharing some of the challenges that they're having and how they want to be a better leader. Oftentimes I hear a lot improve executive presence, whatever that means. Improve your executive presence. And I think that really, that just means be authentically yourself as a leader and be confident in yourself.” -Leah Fleischner

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Leah Fleischner about her experience in working with startups, coaching executives, and leading enterprise change initiatives.  She shares some thoughts on the needs and motivations of today's worker that’s driving the ‘Great Resignation’.  Later, Leah explores topics like mental health while working remote, why words matter, and the masculine-feminine expressions of leadership.  We then discuss what it takes to be a great coach.   Listen in for more interesting thoughts on moving forward with grace.

“I think that people have been trying to facilitate these virtual meetings and they're pretty dry in a lot of ways, but they get the point across and that's good, but they're finding maybe a lack of productivity that happens when people just feel like this mundane day-to-day.”

Rachael Green is the CEO and Founder at Rach Green Cocktails, where she uses high level hospitality, spirits and cocktail knowledge to entertain thousands of people from around the world.

In this episode of Control the Room, Rachael and I discuss hospitality, hybrid events, and mixology. Listen in to hear how prioritizing fun and connection can usher in balance and harmony within your teams.

"What I found is that the workshop format is perfect for a creative team."

-Alison Coward

Today my guest is Alison Coward, founder of Bracket, a consulting agency that helps teams in the creative and digital industries to work better together. Alison helps organizations build highly collaborative cultures and high-performing teams. She is a strategist, workshop facilitator, coach, trainer, keynote speaker, and author of "A Pocket Guide to Effective Workshops."

She works across corporates, start-ups, agencies, and public institutions, and her client list includes Google, D&AD, Barclaycard, Wellcome, and Channel 4. With over 15 years of experience of working in, leading, and facilitating creative teams, Alison is passionate about finding the balance between team creativity, productivity, and collaboration.

While researching how creative industries could flourish, Alison came across the idea of collaboration, which she focuses on today. The first iteration of Bracket was a virtual agency that brought freelancers together into teams to deliver collaborative projects for clients.

"As a facilitator, you're not there to contribute content, and you're not there to tell people what to do, you're there to create a space where all of your ideas can come to the forefront," Alison told me. She further dives into the role of a facilitator, explaining that your role is objective–you need to stay focused on what you need to do to get people communicating. It’s also important to consider what is necessary for your team to get to know each other, and to be able to contribute ideas and feel at ease to speak up.

We also talk about how to make space for constructive conflict, why there is power in the introduction, and how your team can define who they are as an objective. Listen in to find out how to understand the context of what you're working in, how you can create the environment to do your best work as a team, and why shared empathy across a team is so important.

Show Highlights

[00:57] How Alison became a leader in building high-performing teams.

[02:45] Alison’s workshops: teaching others how to create teams that work together.

[04:48] Matching skills to brief and character in a team.

[06:54] Assembling successful teams from people who don’t know each other.

[08:09] Alison’s go-to strategies for getting members of a team on the same page.

[11:30] How your team can define who they are as an objective.

[14:33] Using the empathy map to dig deeper with the people you work with on your team.

[16:00] Emotional baggage tied up in teams and how you can bring that into work.

[19:10] Turning off the negative and looking at the positive to see the beauty we want to pursue.

[23:46] The value of having differing perspectives in a team environment.

[26:52] Developing behaviors and making them habits.

[30:19] To increase your chances of success you have to be intentional about what you’re doing in a team environment.

[33:55] Managers are there to clear the path and make work easy.

[36:39] Alison’s advice in how to gain facilitation in a meeting room.

Links and Resources

Meeting Solutions Online

Lynda Baker on LinkedIn

About the Guest

Alison works across corporates, start-ups, agencies, and public institutions, and her client list includes Google, D&AD, Barclaycard, Wellcome, and Channel 4. With over 15 years of experience of working in, leading, and facilitating creative teams, Alison is passionate about finding the balance between team creativity, productivity, and collaboration.

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation agency that helps teams work better together with custom-designed meetings and workshops, both in-person and virtual. Our master facilitators offer trusted guidance and custom coaching to companies who want to transform ineffective meetings, reignite stalled projects, and cut through assumptions. Based in Austin, Voltage Control designs and leads public and private workshops that range from small meetings to large conference-style gatherings. 

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Intro: Welcome to the Control the Room Podcast, a series devoted to the exploration of meeting culture and uncovering cures for the common meeting. Some meetings have tight control, and others are loose. To control the room means achieving outcomes while striking a balance between imposing and removing structure, asserting and distributing power, leaning in and leaning out, all in the service of having a truly magical meeting.

Douglas: Today I’m with Alison Coward, founder of Bracket, where she helps organizations build highly collaborative cultures and highly performing teams.

Welcome to the show, Alison.

Alison: Thanks, Douglas.

Douglas: So, Alison, tell us a little bit about your journey. How did you get started in this work?

Alison: It is a bit of a journey, actually. So, I didn’t fall into workshop facilitation because I intended to. Actually, the angle that I came with it was because I was so passionate about collaboration.

And I've actually done an M.A., which was related to my previous career in the creative industries, did lots of research about how the creative industries could flourish, and came across this idea of collaboration. And, actually, the first iteration of Bracket, when I set out 10 years ago, was a virtual agency that brought freelancers together into teams and to deliver collaborative projects for clients. And at the start of each of those projects, because each of these freelancers never worked together before, it made sense and it was really logical for me to get everyone together to meet each other, but, then, also to have, I guess, a brainstorming session where we talk about what we were going to do for the client and how we were going to work together.

And because I wasn't a creative producer myself, I was the person that kind of convenes every one. I was the facilitator, but I didn't know I was doing that at the time. And actually, that's what people picked up on. They were asking me to facilitate their workshops. So rather than me bringing together teams, they were saying, “Can you come in and work with our teams to do what you're doing with those teams? because we need that as well.”

It just kind of went from there, really. I kind of realized what workshop facilitation was, started to do more of that. And I wrote a book, A Pocket Guide to Effective Workshops.

And then over the last couple of years, I've kind of brought it back full circle—I'd say, over the last kind of three to four years—brought it back full circle to the original core of the idea, which was around collaboration. So whereas the workshops that I ran previously were—they were innovation workshops, maybe brainstorming workshops, or strategy sessions; now a lot of the workshops I facilitate are very much about how teams can gel and form and create new ways of working together.

Douglas: Yeah. I wrote the word forming down, as you mentioned, gel and form, form and gel and work together, that makes me even more curious because I've always found that model of forming, norming, storming to be kind of interesting, like this maturity curve that a team goes on. And so what did you find when you were assembling these kind of creative groups and facilitating them, as far as patterns and, I don’t know, maybe norms, that work that you could lean on in this forming stage or when you're starting to get them to gel?

Alison: That's a really brilliant question because, first of all, what I found was the workshop format was actually perfect for a creative team, and I don't think I'd really made that connection before. The thing is, is when you're facilitating a workshop as a facilitator, you're not there to contribute content, and you're not there to tell people what to do. You’re there to create a space where all of the ideas can come to the forefront. And I think I instinctively knew that, but I hadn't realized it so clearly because I wasn't a creative producer. It was my job for everybody to come together and create the best platform for this team to do their best work as people that had never met before but people that were experts in everything that they did. So I think that was the first thing was that, as a facilitator, your role is very objective, and you've got a specific role, which is about process of what do you need to do to get these people communicating, getting to know each other, being able to contribute ideas and speak up, and also make the space for that constructive conflict that is so important in innovation as well.

So I say that's one of the things, particularly in terms of the form, is such, some stuff that came before that in terms of kind of understanding the brief and then matching skills to the brief and then kind of having a little bit of a background knowledge about the characters and kind of matching it that way. But, really, the work started in the room, or just before the room, when I would sort of plan that workshop out and figure out, I need to get these people working in the best way possible. How can I make that happen?

Douglas: Yeah, it's interesting. I think that you mentioned it's important to understand the brief, and I feel like that's where so many people focus. It’s like making sure we're aligning on what exactly needs to be done versus the best way for us to come together and work together, understand each other, and do our best work.

Alison: 100 percent. I mean, that's the work that needs to be done before you even really start talking about the ideas, or maybe done in tandem. But you're right that the emphasis is on the content and not on the how. It's one of my favorite phrases, which is how you work together has more of an impact on the success of a team than what they're working on and even who's in the team. And I use lots of research to back that up. But it’s so important. And I think the emphasis for me was that, one, these people were specialists. I'd brought them into the room for a specific reason, and they were cross-disciplinary as well, multidisciplinary teams. Secondly, they'd never met before, and they were going to be working on a high-value client project together. So it's not that there wasn't room for mistakes, but we had to kind of get together and start working together very quickly. We didn't really have the luxury of years of getting to know each other. We had to kind of get together, know each other, and start working together all in the same day. So it was very much emphasis on the kind of the forming part.

Douglas: Yeah, it's interesting. You mentioned this situation where we don't have years to get to know each other. We have to assemble and move pretty quickly. I would hazard a guess that we'll see more of that in the future as the different models emerge for finding work and doing work. To me, the future work is about more kind of open talent.

Alison: Yeah. And temporary teams as well. I mean, I think the challenges that we're facing and the problems that we want to solve and how we want to innovate, we're going to need to bring different skillsets together. And that means that it's going to be teams that are made up of people that have never worked together before, because we're going to need to bring skills together in new ways. It's almost like different jigsaw puzzles or different recipes, if you like. The raw ingredients, but mixing them up in different ways, and you get a different result. So we're going to have to get much more used to working with people that we don't know and, therefore, understanding what it takes to get a team up and running more quickly, which, like you say, it's less to do with the content and more to do with the process of how. We need to get better at having those kinds of conversations.

Douglas: Yeah. To me, the word trust comes to mind. How do we get to that point of trust quickly? And I'm curious of what your go-to strategies or what you found to work to kind of really kick start some of that.

Alison: Yeah. Well, there's a few things. I mean, I always talk about the value of a check in at the start of a meeting and finding a question that everyone can respond to, which not only kind of creates a moment for people to kind of focus and say what we're going to—we’re in the room together, and we need to give our attention, but also an opportunity for people to get to know each other.

The book The Checklist Manifesto by Atul Gawande, he did a lot of research in hospitals, and he found that the teams that were going into surgery, the doctors and nurses and anesthetists that introduced themselves at the beginning of the surgery before they started operating were more likely to have a successful surgery because the fact that they spoke up at the beginning and got to know each other, got to know each other’s names, meant they were more likely to speak up later on during the surgery if they saw something going wrong.

There's a real power in that kind of pause at the beginning of a session. And I don’t mean those introductions where you go around the room. I mean, I think I find those kind of quite daunting, actually, when I’m in a room of people that I don't know and I'm under pressure to introduce myself in a really effective way. But finding an interesting question that you can talk around.

I mean, I think the other thing as well, which goes back to social psychology, is that finding ways that people can find things in common with each other, whether it's two brothers or their parents grew up in the same town or their birthdays are in the same month, even things like that can start to help to build that connection which will then lead to trust. So as a facilitator, again, it's about finding those questions. And I don't really like to call them icebreakers all the time. And I know that there's value in icebreakers, but I feel that this is really part of the work. It's not just something that's breaking the ice. It's something that's really helping people to get together and to focus on the work. And there's so much out there. There’s so many questions that we can pick up on. People have created kits for questions that you can ask at the start of a meeting. So they can ware short on those kinds of questions, but I think the fact is we need to design something at the beginning to open up those kinds of conversations.

Douglas: I think you're so spot on. You know, if we can tie it to our purpose and have it align, and there’s a broader intent or reason why we're doing that work, then icebreakers, whatever you want to call it, they have value. But if we’re just going to throw them in because, “Oh, we always do this,” then we're just kind of going through the motions.

I really would love to talk a little bit about—I was thinking about those—I had written down the word team charter. And I was thinking, also, about Patrick Lencioni’s organizational health is so important versus operational excellence. And so I'm curious to just hear your thoughts on this notion of the team really kind of coming together and kind of defining who they are as an objective.

Alison: Absolutely love it. Yeah. It’s one of the key principles that I have is that in order for a team to identify how they’re going to work, how everyone's going to do their best work, they have to sit down and really explore, first of all, who's on the team and what each individual is bringing to the team, as well as each of those individuals, how they work and how they do their best work. They also need to consider, therefore, what everybody looks like, what that looks like as a team, when you bring all of those people together, because that's going to be unique. Because if we're working in these temporary teams and each team is going to be made up of different types of people, which means each team is going to be different as well, then you need to think about what is it that you're actually working on—some projects are more fast paced than others. Some are more pressurized than others, that require more creativity and innovation than others—but really understands what it is that you need to do together. And then, also, understand the context that you're working within as well and whether that's going to influence the way that you work together. And then once you've got all of that, once you've kind of discussed that as a team and understood it, that's when you’re in the position to really start designing, okay, so this is a situation that we're in. How are we going to do our best work? How can we create the environment for us also individually, do our best work within the way that we can, acknowledging that we’re going to need to make some compromises, and, therefore, what does that mean as a team for us doing our best work as well?

So I actually love the idea of a team charter and particularly the idea of getting to know everybody's working styles so that there's that shared empathy across the team as well.

Douglas: Yeah. It reminds me of this technique where managers will write a manual on how to understand them, and give it to their employees or their direct reports. And I think that being able to do that as a team and get to a high-level understanding can be really powerful.

There is a technique I always loved to use as a manager if I had two employees that were struggling. Most of the time, it came down to a lack of understanding about role and perspective and capability, skillset. Unless there was something pathological going on, I would just ask them to go to coffee and tell them, “You can't talk about work. I don't want you to talk about your tasks or what's going on. I just want you to take turns telling each other what the other person does. Describe the other person's role, in your words, and just listen to each other. And once you're done sharing back and forth, then discuss that.” It's, like, 99 times out of 100, they come back, and they're like, “Oh. You know, I had no idea.”

Alison: Yeah. I love that. I love that.

The other tool that I've used as well—and these are particularly across teams, actually, that have conflict, like maybe a marketing or a sales team, or I've done it with a research department in a university that had relationship with the academics they work with—I use the empathy map, which is, like, a really great way to kind of sit down, use the empathy map usually with your potential customers or clients if you’re service, but using the empathy map with people that you work with. Again, really trying to dig in deep and to really see things from their point of view. Again, you can kind of help to smooth some of those conflicts over.

Douglas: Yeah, that's great. It reminded me of how awesome it is when organizations and consultants are using design-thinking tools to point them inward and start thinking employee experience versus customer experience.

Alison: That was—you’re talking about all the stuff I love talking about and writing about. I mean, I literally just wrote a post about design thinking and using design thinking as a way to build resilient teams. And again, one of the main things that I talk about a lot is that we've got all of these innovation tools which help us to create amazing products and services and innovate in those areas. If we turn them inwards, into our team, then actually we can innovate the way that we work as well. Most teams, if you think about UX or products, they're used to using these tools. They’re kind of second nature to them. But often, they haven't thought about just flipping them internally and using them to really create new ways of working together, and they can be really powerful when used in that way.

Douglas: Absolutely. One of my favorites—we were talking about starting meetings earlier—one of my favorites is starting with hopes and fears, because you talk about feeling strongly about something, this is your career. You spend more time with these people than you sometimes do with family because, frankly, there's eight hours of your waking day is at the office, or at home, logged into a virtual session. And so there’s going to be a lot of emotional baggage tied up in teams and things. And so just giving people space to express those things can be really powerful.

Alison: 100 percent. And, you know, I think that's the key, right? We spend so much of our time at work. We often—I think people don't have the awareness or feel that they have the permission to make work better. And, you know, one of the thoughts is that if you make it work better—because we spend so much time at work and particularly in the area that we work in, a lot of our work is done with teams—if we spend the time making teamwork better, it will change the experience that we have of work. And because we spend so much time at work, it's kind of going to change the experience that we have over all of our lives because if we're spending so much time at work and if we don't like our jobs, then, actually, that has an impact on how we feel generally. If we love our work, we feel that we're able to go and express ourselves, and we have the opportunity to thrive, do our best work, have amazing conversations with our colleagues, which push us and challenge us and enable us to grow. And that's going to have a knock on effects in our lives outside of work as well. And that's one of the things that really gets me going.

I actually did a bit of an interview earlier, and one of the questions was, what's your biggest delusion? And my delusion is, is that one day everybody goes to work or looks forward to going to work and has brilliant days every single day. I don't know. That's kind of like a utopia. But that is, you know, that's my biggest delusion.

Douglas: You know, I think that's really beautiful. And I was just coaching someone recently on leadership, and they had, not that long ago, been promoted. They're a software developer, and they're kind of on the track to become V.P. of engineering at their startup. And the thing that I noticed, this trend, was they were from a background of just big company, corporate gigs, where the hobby or the pastime is to sit back and just complain about all the things that are wrong. All the things about work and all the things the boss did and someone else did and blah, blah, blah. And that stuff’s addictive. That mindset, that behavior, that pastime is super addictive. And I'm a big fan of positive deviance as a workshop technique, and it can be a way of life, too, if we just reflect on what's working rather than what's not working. But as, especially as engineers, it can be really difficult or really easy, I would say, just to fall into that trap. And I'm trained and lifelong engineer, a software developer, and we've spent our entire career building our abilities to figure out what could go wrong and to plan against it, and find the bugs and fix them. And we have to be able to turn that off and look at the positive sometime, because if we're always looking at what won't work, then we'll never see the beauty that we might be able to pursue.

Alison: Mm, yeah. And I even like what you said about looking at finding the bugs and fixing it. You can even kind of put a positive spin on that. If we look at that as work, what's not working in work, and kind of think what we want to problem solve and the things that aren't working to make it better, that's the kind of really good way of looking at is, is also a positive spin. But I do agree that it feels quite addictive, and it almost feels like there's a kind of element of that's what work’s meant to be. We're not meant to enjoy it. We’re meant to moan about work. We’re meant to moan about our colleagues.

But what if we weren’t? What if work was meant to be this place where you go to where you are fulfilled? It enables you to sort of, not in a, I guess, in a controlled way, but enables you to be a better human. It enables you to kind of search for what it is that you want to do and kind of grow and develop and explore and become a better communicator. So therefore, you can contribute in better ways to your family, to your community, to society.

I'd love for companies to see themselves as having that role. Can you imagine if companies, alongside, see companies have to make a profit and they have to survive, otherwise they can’t employ people. But when they do kind of get to that stage, it's like, what if we saw ourselves as a place where people come to thrive, because we see the impact that that's going to have on society?

Douglas: That's beautiful. I love it.

I'm going to switch gears a little bit and come back—it's something I was thinking about when we were talking about the forming and just understanding each other and some of the things that are required to build trust. And it struck me—and this is something that we've been doing in some of our workshops. I've found great results with it, and I'm sure it's found your way into your work—where usually when people get along or there's disagreements or they're disgruntled by someone, it's because they have a weakness of their teammates. It's the behavior that their teammate or someone on the team’s exhibiting is hurtful or doesn't connect in some way, and it upset someone. And usually, I've found that those behaviors are the exact opposite manifestation of a strength.

So, for instance, let's take one example, which is I'm an achiever, so I get a lot of stuff done. So then my expectations on others can be quite high, unless I check myself and say, “Not everyone is going to be functioning on this achiever level as me. And even when I keep taking them into account, it can potentially still come off as overwhelming to others. And it's one thing for me to carry that burden and do my best to take care of others, but if we talk about all of this as a team, now everyone else can understand that ‘Oh, I don't need to interpret this as an attack on me. That’s just Douglas being an achiever. And that's great for the team.’”

Alison: Yeah, absolutely.

Douglas: Yeah.

Alison: Of course, I’ve a bit of a love-hate relationship with personality tests. Well, I’m kind of addicted to them because I love doing them for myself, but then I know that they have their limits in the past—

Douglas: Yes.

Alison: But I think that they’re a good entry point into self-awareness. And what happens—I remember when I did my first one, which, I think, was Myers Briggs years ago, and it was kind of mind-blowing for me because we need, sometimes, need these kind of assessments. How did they get that so right? But what it did for me was, as well as kind of creating that self-awareness, with Myers Briggs, for example, you've got those 15 other personality types. And you're like, “Oh, right. The reason that person and I clash all the time is that they were on the opposite end of the scale. So they just see things in a different perspective from me.”

So that, actually, that's the most powerful outcome of the personality test, I think, second to the initial self-awareness is the awareness that other people see things and work in different ways. And the more that you can understand that, the more that you can benefit from collaboration, because in a collaborative team, you don't want people that all work in the same way. And that's the whole point of collaborating, that you get different perspectives. But the nature of having those different perspectives may cause conflict if people haven't taken the time to get to know each other and understand how people see things and, therefore, how valuable that is to have those different perspectives.

It also comes back to the debate around diversity at the moment, which is the value not only from a moral standpoint, that people, the team should be diverse because we are globally diverse, but at the same time, the opportunities that come from inviting or including people into a conversation that have different perspectives and being able to hold those types of conversations. And we've seen that it's pretty challenging, but it’s something that we have to learn to do, not only because we want to make the world better, but also it just makes better workplaces.

Douglas: So, when we talk about working together and how we're going to do that, we've spoken a lot about the soft skills and the understanding around coming together and understanding how we're going to work together. I think there's also some very, I would say, more hard skills that go into how we're going to work together. Even deciding, are we going to use Google Docs and do some real-time collaboration, or what tools are we going to use? When are we going to meet? When does it make sense to have certain types of meetings? And I think that that causes a lot of strain on teams when they don't have those conversations and they take it for granted or they let things evolve organically versus having some upfront conversations around, what's the best way for us to share these things, and what is our iteration cadence, etc.?

Alison: Mm. So, here's the thing, right, is that this can be seen as a design process. You can create and design the way that you work together as a team. And, you know, all those kind of factors I mentioned before—the individuals on the team, the project that you're working on, the context that you’re working with it—what do you need to design to enable you to reach the outcomes that you set for yourself? And that might be looking specifically at how you meet, when you meet, what types of meetings you're going to have, what tools you're going to use, and how you're going—but not even just what tools you're going to use, but how you're going to use those tools. We're going to use Slack for this, and we’re going to use Google Docs for this.

The other thing is what kinds of mechanisms and, perhaps, rituals can you put in place to foster that communication and the connection and trust—we’ve seen this a lot with remote teams. We've seen it a lot in remote teams in the fact that, you know, people aren't in the office as much, and they’ve really been missing that connection. And it's not that you can necessarily replicate those water-cooler moments in the office, but there is something that you can create to try to ensure that you're checking in with your colleagues, for example, or you are having those kind of social chats, and being really intentional about how you work together. And then thinking, “This is all a behavior-change piece.” So not only do we want to collaborate better, and, therefore, that means we need to have this meeting then and that meeting then, but actually really be specific about how and when you're going to start to develop these behaviors or make them habits.

Douglas: Mm. I love this notion of developing behaviors and making them habits.

Alison: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is it. You know, if we want to work differently, then we're going to be changing the way that we work, and, actually, we know that as humans, we find change quite difficult to do off of our own backs. However, when change is done to us, like we’ve seen in the recent situation, we’ve had to change quite quickly, when we're trying to be proactive about change, then we have to be a lot more, I guess, disciplined with ourselves about how it's going to take place. So it's not just the conversations with your team of saying, “We want to be a good collaborative team.” It’s saying, “Well, what does collaboration look like to us, and what do we mean by collaboration? And on a practical level, what actions do we take in order to make that happen? And then, when are we going to do those actions? And what does it look like? How do we know that it's working?” and making sure that you're having those kind of regular conversations as a team to review how you're working and what you need to improve or what you need. It's right on.

Douglas: Yeah. Speaking of change, if you could change anything about most meetings, would it be?

Alison: When I say most meetings, I'm talking about the team meetings that are kind of big parts of projects because the “getting to know you” meetings are slightly different than presentation meetings. But I would say that I would love teams to look at those kinds of meetings and approach them as if they were workshops. So that means taking each of those meetings and thinking, “Right, okay, what is the purpose? What is the outcome? What are the things that we need to discuss? And what are the best ways to discuss those different points? And then, how can we make it engaging, and how can we make sure that everybody gets the chance to have a say?” So I think that's one of the things that I would like to see change in meetings is that how can we make some of our meetings more workshop like? because that's what we need. If you want collaborative discussions, that's exactly what a workshop achieves.

Douglas: Yeah. We're going to increase participation that way, for sure.

Alison: Right.

Douglas: I love that. It’s like, can we unleash everyone? because I think so many meetings provide too many opportunities for social loafing.

Alison: Mm. And for people to dominate, as well, the conversation. And that's the special role of a facilitator is that they are there to keep an eye on these things and make sure that the conversation is inclusive, kind of draw out the things that aren't being said and the people that aren't speaking, and understand why they're not speaking.

Douglas: Yeah. How have you noticed some of those dynamics change now that we're in the virtual space so much more often?

Alison: Yeah, no less people being intentional about it, then it doesn’t change. I think that was one of the big mistakes that happened is that everyone got very excited by having these online, virtual meetings because we had Zoom, and we've got Slack and those kinds of things. But they didn’t—if meetings are terrible face to face anyway, then they're not automatically going to be amazing because they're virtual. You've still got to apply the same principles of planning those meetings and making them better.

I think it's the same conversation that we have around collaboration. You know, just by putting great people in the room doesn't mean that they're automatically going to work well together. It can happen. But actually, if you want to increase the chances of success, then you've got to be intentional about it. And it's the same with our online meetings.

So where people were feeling, perhaps, that they weren't able to contribute in online meetings, in fact, it's been accentuated. So where they weren't able to contribute in face-to-face meetings, it's been accentuated in online meetings. And all of the kind of cracks in cultures, in meeting cultures, in team cultures, have just been highlighted and enhanced even more in a situation where we have to work remotely.

And I do believe that a lot of this stuff—I mean, I know I'm biased, but I think what I learned from facilitating workshops was really transformational for me. I said that I started off my career, but I was working with creatives. I was working with freelance creatives. These are people that worked for themselves. They were their own boss, and they were specialists. So I knew, as somebody who didn't have any knowledge about how they did their work and how they got their results, there was just no point in me telling them what to do. I didn't want to tell them what to do. That's the whole point. I got in there because I wanted to kind of draw on their expertise.

Now we're finding ourselves in a situation where the workplace looks a little bit more like that. We are bringing together multidisciplinary teams. People are specialists in their own areas. And the way that we've managed in the past through, or the traditional idea of the manager, i.e. telling people what to do and making decisions, won't work in an environment where we want innovation.

And what I learned from facilitating workshops was transformational because for me a workshop is the exact same feeling and environment that you need to lead a creative team through uncertainty is exactly what a facilitator does. So it’s almost like, how do leaders take on some of those principles of facilitation and apply them to how they work with their teams? because that's kind of what we need. We need to make that shift from the tell-and-sell manager to a manager or a leader that is more facilitative and creates the space for people to do their work and enables those conversations.

Douglas: You know, I recently had Lynda Baker on the podcast, and she loves to share this definition of facilitation to be to make ease.

Alison: Yeah.

Douglas: And I'm pretty fascinated by this definition, and especially as it relates to what you were just talking about around, how can leaders improve their teams by adopting these skills and this way of working? And tying back to your point around, can we help teams and employees and workers enjoy their work more and not feel like they're dreading work? And if management is less about like—well, leadership is less about managing and having you under their thumb, and more about, how can I make this easy? that seems like it would bring about more delight.

Alison: Absolutely. Do you know that that—I talk about this all the time. If anyone's heard me speak at events, then you know that I talk about this all the time, but it just made me think about Teresa Amabile’s book The Progress Principle, where she identified that the thing that knowledge workers want more than anything or the thing that ignites most joy in people's work is that they've made progress every single day and it, therefore, changes the way that we look at managers, that managers are there to clear the path to make that progress easy, which goes back to Lynda Baker's definition of facilitation.

Douglas: Mm. It also reminds me of—I think Gallup did a study and came up with these twelve questions that were the critical questions that you could ask of employees to kind of rate their satisfaction. They kind of presented a little more negatively in the sense that, like, if they answer no to more than one or two of these questions, then they're probably likely to leave. I always found them to be really powerful questions, the pepperin and one-on-ones and stuff. But I've never used them in workshops, and I just jotted it down because I think it could be interesting to start kind of bringing those in and thinking about, could they be almost design principles? So instead of using them as a reactive measure, we actually use them as a standard to, like, well, how do we design situations that ensure we're all yeses on all these questions?

Alison: Yes. Yeah.

Douglas: One of them was, do you feel that you're doing your best work?

Alison: Mm, yeah, yeah. If you're kind of looking at that from a design point of view, again, it comes back to that self-reflection. It’s like, how can you be sure that you're doing your best work, or what do you need to be able to do your best work?

Douglas: Yeah. And are we making sure we're putting people on the right teams? Like, if we’re routinely reassembling and looking at projects, who should be on the projects could be highly informed by the fact of, well, where could Susan be doing her best work? and not necessarily what’s most convenient for me as a leader or for whatever reasons, we can kind of consider some of these things when we're allocating resources.

Alison: And that's what makes me think that that's what work should be about, because you’re going to get not only engaged employees, but if you kind of bring someone in that is able to do their best work on whatever projects that they're doing, then that's going to benefit the company in the long run, obviously, because you've just got all these people that are just doing amazing work wherever you put them.

Douglas: So, I want to wrap up with one question, which is, if you're thinking about a leader who’s just starting to hear some of these things, and they're curious about how facilitation could play a role in the future of their organization, or it could even be someone in the trenches that just wants to be a facilitator, what's your biggest advice as far as how to start to gain the benefits of facilitation and start to practice some of this stuff?

Alison: I would say, don’t feel that you have to only practice facilitation in a workshop setting. There are skills in facilitation, which is, I guess, what I've been saying throughout our chat is that the skills of things like asking great questions and listening, I mean, they’re very aligned to coaching, actually. But actually, if you start with those two, that for a week, every conversation that you have with one of your team, just ask questions and listen and see how that changes and shifts the dynamic. That's a key skill that a facilitator will have to use in sessions anyway, asking questions and listening to those responses. And that's, again, what makes facilitation really powerful because people are being listened to. So I’d say try to extract some of those skills. Definitely look at how you command your meetings to be more facilitated as well. So some of the kind of classic ways of designing workshops and facilitation skills. But I would say, also, look at the opportunities outside of those workshop settings for using facilitation skills where you can apply them.

Douglas: I love that. People can go to all the training they want. And I've talked to countless facilitators who have gotten lots of training and even multiple levels, and are still daunted when they're asked to plan a meeting with the CEO. They’re asking for advice of, what do I do? And I think you're right. Practice matters so much, and you don't have to wait for the meeting, the big event, the big workshop, to your point earlier. The best way to improve meetings is to make them feel more facilitated, make them feel more like workshops. So start practicing this stuff on everyday meetings, where the stakes are a little lower. And quite frankly, the stakes are higher than you might realize because doing that’s going to unleash so much value, as you previously mentioned.

Alison: Absolutely. Yeah.

Douglas: Excellent.

Well, this has been such a pleasure, chatting with you today. How can the listeners—how can they find you?

Alison: You can find me on LinkedIn, Alison Coward, on LinkedIn. You can also find me at my website, which is bracketcreative.co.uk. And my email address is alison@alison@bracketcreative.co.uk to get in contact with me.

Douglas: Excellent.

Well, it's been a pleasure, chatting with you, Alison. I really enjoyed the conversation.

Alison: Likewise. Thank you so much.

Outro: Thanks for joining me for another episode of Control the Room. Don't forget to subscribe to receive updates when new episodes are released. If you want more, head over to our blog, where I post weekly articles and resources about working better together. Voltagecontrol.com

“Sometimes we're blinkered. We think we know what our project should be, and we think we know why we're doing it, but we miss out on a whole area of opportunity simply because we're just too blinkered to see it. So giving people that ‘get out of jail free’ card can open ourselves up to some opportunities that we might not otherwise realize.”

Ben Aston is a digital project manager and founder of both Black & White Zebra and The Digital Project Manager. He is passionate about understanding customer needs through design research, identifying opportunities based on those insights, and empowering designers and technologists to create solutions. Ben is driven to develop and uncover new opportunities for clients, establishing strong connections with their customers through product solutions that create lasting value.

In this episode of Control the Room, Douglas speaks with Ben about improving meetings through connection, bringing back lost momentum, and unlocking opportunities we may not yet see ourselves. Listen in to hear the key questions Ben asks his team to create positive, impactful outcomes and uncover opportunities for his clients and customers. 

“Winston Churchill said something like, "We create our buildings and then our buildings create us." So we are deeply influenced by our environment. This species didn't evolve except by paying very careful attention to what's going on around us. Because we're not that fast, we don't have good teeth, we had to be pretty attentive to our environment to even survive. Well, we're still those creatures. We're still very attentive to even subtle cues in our environment. Environments tell us how to behave. Others in the environment, reinforce the messages given by the physical space.” -Rob Evans

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Rob Evans about his experience designing and leading collaborative workshops to help leaders align and mobilize their teams to successfully tackle complex challenges.  He starts with how a his background at studying at the Harvard Divinity School led to management counsulting.  Later, Rob discusses the importance of where we work and how it influences how we work.  We then discuss collaboration at scale.  Listen in for more tips in how to teach design collaboration at scale.

“That playbook is completely outdated, and it's dangerous. If you applied a 20th century mindset to a 21st century world, we're going to be much more hurt. How can we think about a way in which business and society can thrive together? We have to exist in a place of constant learning, a place of much more caring, and a place where we think about long-term value creation as opposed to short-term profitability growth”

Nancy Giordano is a strategic futurist, an author, and the founder of Play Big Inc. Her focus and vision bleed into PBI’s own initiatives, where they focus on helping enterprise leaders meet the escalating expectations of a fast changing world.

In this episode of Control the Room, I speak with Nancy about updating strategic efforts, machine learning, and the tools meeting planners have at their disposal in bettering their teams’ success. Listen in to hear Nancy break down the importance of bringing a relevant strategy to multi-faceted, complex teams.

“What we need to figure out though, is what is our relationship to these boxes on our computer that we're locked into for so many hours a day. I think it's time for us to just acknowledge that no human being should be in front of a screen for eight to 10 hours a day, that's just not healthy.”

Christina Wodtke is the author of the best-seller Radical Focus, which uses the power of story to build a new approach to OKRs, as well as The Team that Managed Itself and Pencil Me In. Christina currently teaches at Stanford in the HCI program in Computer Science. She speaks worldwide about humanity, teamwork, and the journey to excellence.

I had the pleasure of having Christina as a guest on this episode of the Control the Room podcast. We speak about influencing the influencers, psychological safety online, and re-evaluating our relationship with our computers. Listen in to find out why it’s okay to miss your OKR’s.

“Using the other person's words is the nearest thing that the FBI has to a Jedi mind trick, because when the other person hears their words coming back, what they think is that person is using words like mine, therefore, they must be like me, therefore, I should like them.”

Judy Rees is a consultant at Rees McCann where she leads a community of trainers, facilitators, producers and others who want to make online better than in-the-room. She is also the co-author of the Web Events That Connect How-to Guide and Clean Language: Revealing Metaphors and Opening Minds.

In this episode of Control the Room, I talk with Judy about clean language, gardening, and contextual intent. Listen in to learn what subtleties can be uncovered in the words we use every day, through active listening and asking the right questions.

 “No one wants a boring facilitator, right? It's about being effective. It's about getting their goals accomplished. But if someone's going to be in a room with you for four to eight hours, to an extent it would be nice if you can entertain.” 

-Harold Hardaway

I'm excited to have Harold Hardaway with me on the Control the Room podcast today. Harold is the co-founder and CEO of Cardigan, a branding and internal communications company that "Inspires Brands that Inspire Employees." Cardigan has deep expertise in working with companies with non-desk employees, multiple-location businesses, retail brands, and professional companies with remote workers.

Harold started his career in banking and found his way as the Director of Corporate Communications and Culture for H.E.B. before co-creating Cardigan. He currently oversees research and strategy for all client projects at Cardigan, and he is also a speaker and thought leader on corporate communications and culture. 

On today’s episode, Harold and I talk about how to utilize quiet during facilitation, how to bring subjects and jokes back around when presenting, and how to have a "full circle" moment. Listen in to find out how Harold uses ingratiation in his facilitation, how to use equifinality, and why acknowledgment is so powerful.

Show Highlights

[01:58]  Harold’s genesis story.

[03:33] How personality traits assist Harold in his career.

[06:42] Creating a better experience for clients.

[09:07] Planning ahead of time and getting to know your client.

[14:03] How to change your language to fit your audience.

[16:15] Harold shares about facilitating and racial unrest.

[18:27] How professionalism has crept into the workplace as a form of insensitivity.

[21:35] The power of acknowledgement for yourself and others. 

[30:22] Advice from Harold about facilitating during COVID and into the future.

Links and Resources

Harold on LinkedIn

Cardigan CG on the Web

About the Guest

Dr. Harold Hardaway is a speaker and thought leader on corporate communications and culture. He believes that everyone should “Chase the Good” and centers his work on helping organizations create spaces wherever possible. Today, he serves as Co-Founder and CEO of Cardigan—an internal communications and employer branding firm—and he was previously the Director of Corporate Communications and Culture for H-E-B. Harold has been featured in San Antonio Magazine and Business.com, and his writings have been featured in the Austin Business Journal, SHRM’s People & Strategy Blog, and Recruiter.com. He was recently recognized as a Finalist for the 2019 Austin Under 40 Awards, and he is on the Board of Directors for Leadership Austin, Creative Action, and Equality Texas. 

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation agency that helps teams work better together with custom-designed meetings and workshops, both in-person and virtual. Our master facilitators offer trusted guidance and custom coaching to companies who want to transform ineffective meetings, reignite stalled projects, and cut through assumptions. Based in Austin, Voltage Control designs and leads public and private workshops that range from small meetings to large conference-style gatherings. 

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Intro: Welcome to the Control the Room Podcast, a series devoted to the exploration of meeting culture and uncovering cures for the common meeting. Some meetings have tight control, and others are loose. To control the room means achieving outcomes while striking a balance between imposing and removing structure, asserting and distributing power, leaning in and leaning out, all in the service of having a truly magical meeting.

Douglas: Today I’m with Harold Hardaway, CEO of Cardigan, where they’re cultivating brands that inspire employees.

Welcome to the show, Harold.

Harold: Thank you for having me. I’m excited to be here.

Douglas: Excellent. Well, I wanted to start off by hearing a little bit about your history. I’m always fascinated by how facilitators find their way to their roles, because, let's just face it, there's no degree at any college where you go to become a facilitator, so there’s always a fascinating journey. And especially when we're looking at all these different silos and different methodologies, people come from totally different worlds. So I'm really curious to hear how you got here.

Harold: Yeah. I probably stumbled into it like most people, like you're saying. So no degrees here to kind of get there. So when I first started out in my career, I worked at a mortgage bank, and they didn't have a training department. It was a new division, and so in the absence, with no one raising their hand, to develop training, I raised my hand, and I was the trainer for that particular group. And so I think through that I kind of learned how to explain things two, three different ways to someone. And at the same time, I was in a group with business analysts, and through that process, they were working on developing systems, and then I would have to sort of train the system. But I would be in the room when they would start working on what that was going to look like, how it was going to operate, and so being able to really translate how the business was using the tool versus how they were designing it. So between the business and I.T. and translating there and being able to speak both languages really helped a lot. 

After that, I worked at a large grocery retailer here in Texas—so I’m sure everyone can probably guess who that is—in the I.T. department, and H.R. was my customer. So you can imagine with developing technology with them, there was a lot of translation needed. Like, “I want this.” And then I.T. saying, “Well, we can't necessarily do that.” And it’s like, “Well, what they're really asking for is this. And can you live with this, because I think it'll still get you the business outcomes that you want.” And so being able to hear both sides and translate and help them negotiate an 80 or 90 percent solution was really important. 

And then, once I got taken off of H.R. technology, H.R. just kind of hired me to go work in that department. And through the rest of my career, there was a lot of translating and taking big ideas, which is how I ended up in communications, taking big ideas and being able to kind of translate that down and then navigate people through a process to get to a business outcome. So honestly, most of the times it's because someone didn't raise their hand, and in that space, I did, and figured I'd give it a shot. And I learned a lot, and I ended up facilitating. 

I also am a little bit of a ham and an extrovert, and I don't mind being upfront.

Douglas: We talked about that a little bit, the importance of being this unbiased third party that’s kind of coming in and helping the team be the heroes. But there is still an element of performance you have to prepare, be on your game, get up there, and even if you’re kind of stepping off to the side a bit at times or a lot of times, there is still that moment of, hey, the show’s on, and I’ve got to be there.

And before we started recording, you were mentioning that you had some experience in standup comedy, etc. And so just curious to hear how those experiences related, if you've actually dipped into any of that when you’ve been planning sessions.

Harold: Yeah. You know, a lot of times when you're up there, no one wants a boring facilitator, right? It's about being effective. It's about getting their goals accomplished. But if someone's going to be in a room with you for four to eight hours, to an extent it would be nice if you can entertain. 

So, way back when I kind of was living in Dallas, it was this mortgage banking crisis, and they laid off all support functions. So, like, 600 of us kind of in one day. And in that space, I was like, “What are some things I've always wanted to try?” And it was standup comedy. So I did that. Actually got paid to do it, so I am a paid standup comedian. It was just 100 bucks, but I'll take it and I'll claim it any day of the week. 

But I think what that really allows me to do is pay attention to what's happening. Timing is important to kind of like lay down the joke. And I think timing is also really important when it comes to facilitation, right? So when are you quiet? When do you give space? When do you step in and say something? Also, listening to what other people are saying, and how do you bring things back around? So part of a comedy, right, you'll say something, and then you'll navigate people through a process, and then, you bring the joke back around, and then it hits harder the second time because people kind of feel it. So with facilitation, you'll set something up at the beginning, and then you’ll kind of have, hopefully, this full-circle moment where the light bulb goes off for everyone. 

So I think not being afraid to be in front of people, some comedic timing, understanding sort of that cycle of bringing things back and helping people kind of understand and the light bulb goes off helps a lot when it comes to facilitating.

Douglas: So I want to double stitch on that bringing things back, because you talked about in the preshow kind of prep conversation, you talked about this notion of cultural inside jokes or the words they use or getting to know them. And so I thought that was really, really neat, and how can I not only come in as an unbiased outsider and be that person that doesn't necessarily have any stake in this decision so that I'm not going to influence it, but at the same time, how can I be a friend, an ally to, then, so that everyone feels comfortable and vulnerable? So how much does that bringing it back, the timing, the improv comedy stuff, align with that ability to kind of like dissect the culture and then imbibe that into the experience?

Harold: Yeah. I think it's really important. I think they're equally important. So timing is huge, but also, if you're an outsider, you need people to trust you, to your point. You need them to open up. You need them to be vulnerable. So ingratiation is actually kind of an impression-management technique. So part of it is—I’m also a teacher at some of the universities, so you'll hear some nerdy stuff come out of my mouth every once in a while. But how can I ingratiate myself to someone quickly? So I can do it with a smile. I might be able to say, “Oh, look, I've done this for so many people,” but at the same time to say, “Hey, I did my homework, and I know a little bit about you. I know the words that you use. I know what's important to you.” Makes people think, “Oh, wow,” and you can see it in their face, where they start paying a little bit more attention. 

So an example of that. I had a facilitation. I was actually speaking, just speaking. But it was a little bit like some workshop fun activities in there. And so I was like, “Well, give me three—” we were talking about personal brand. “Give me three words that you would say describe who you are, or someone would say, ‘That Harold. He’s blank, blank, and blank. How would you want them to fill that in in terms of personal brand?’” And they had this whole thing called “more.” They were like, “Well, if we were to do more,” you know. And so I said, “I'm asking you for three. But if you'd like to do more, you could do four.” And everyone in the room burst out laughing and thought it was the funniest thing ever. But it's just because I asked, “What are some things you say culturally? What are some things that you do? What are the inside jokes? What are you working on? What's important in terms of an initiative? If you’ll share some of the last emails that have gone out, if you want to, then I can kind of work all that in.” And so it doesn't feel so much like an outsider, but a continuation of where their organization is really headed. And so that was just kind of a fun example that always sticks out in my head.

Douglas: Yeah. I love this notion of not only adding levity to the situation, but also getting people to really resonate with these broader themes and these broader objectives, or how does it tie back to whatever the business outcomes are? And you mentioned the importance of that in this notion of planning. And the purpose of the planning is to have the plan, but we want to be skilled enough that we can deviate from that. 

So we often talk about antifragile agendas. We want to build our agenda so that we can blow them up if we need to. And I strongly believe that if you're not focused on the outcomes, you can't do that. So that got me really excited when you were talking about those things. So I'm curious to hear how you think about plans, how you think about outcomes, and as that relates to just having a great facilitation.

Harold: Yeah. So, from a client perspective, I will always say, like, “What are one or two things that, at the end, if we accomplish this, you would be like, ‘Wow, I didn't waste my money on this guy’?” Right? Or if it’s my partner, Shannon on Cardigan. And be very clear about those and come up with the plan about how we're specifically going to get there. And what that really does is, I think as a facilitator, allows you to number one, not get frazzled and know that you have a path to get there. And I'm going to say a path because you know what I'm going to bring up in a second. You have a path to get there. And if there's a process and you've planned for it, I always say, if something goes wrong, if I planned enough, plan A, plan B, then it's going to be easy for me to pivot.

And so I've also been responsible for corporate events with 2,000 people in a room. And so I'm like, “We are going to kill ourselves to try to make this ‘perfect.’” And I always say, “It doesn't need to be perfect. It just needs to have the appearance of perfection.” But once we got started, I was like, “If the roof falls in, oh well. At least we exhausted every opportunity.” So to me, the plan is an outline, is a structure. You have to be able to—like we talked about comedy—read the room. What's going to work? What's not working? And be willing to say, “It's not going to work.” 

The other thing, though, with the plan—and I love this concept that I learned in school called equifinality, and there can be infinite ways to get to the same ending. So just because I had this one particular way I thought we can navigate people through the process, if I've done a good job creating space, if I've done a good job aligning people, getting people to open up and speak up, then maybe someone else is going to throw something out, it's going to spark some sort of creativity, and my plan is no longer the best one. But just recognizing and realizing that there's multiple ways to get there. The plan is a framework to kind of keep you on track, and, also, to get your customer to understand where you're going as well. But throw it away if it doesn't work. So don't stick to it, and don't feel like you have to cleave to it, because I've seen so many facilitators do that, and then at the end, you didn't accomplish anything you want to accomplish, but you stuck to your plan. And that's not what you were really getting paid to do.

Douglas: When you started talking about equifinality earlier, my brain started doing this thing because it's kind of meta, if you think about it, because when we're planning, we want to make sure that we don't have this fixed mindset, that we can be adaptable and willing to adjust on the fly as needed. But also, all of these facilitation approaches, no matter if you're in design land or liberating-structures land or wherever, they're kind of based off this concept of equifinality, right, because you want to make sure we bring everyone to the table, and what happens in the room happens. So there's these emergent qualities that we're there to seek out. And so if we come in with this fixed mindset around what the outcomes going to be specifically, then the session’s not going to be very valuable. Or the deep work doesn't happen that we’re kind of seeking for. So I thought it's really interesting that that concept works on multiple levels. It’s, like, at the participant level, it's at the facilitator level, and we all have to embrace that if we want to really get the interstellar outcomes.

Harold: Yeah. And I think that comes from, to your point, the process. I think it also comes from language. And I'll give you an example. You know, we've recently done a lot of webinars on navigating through crises, etc., because there are multiple going on at one time now. And then we're like, “How do you talk to your people that relates to your brand?” And so one example we'll use is, “Do you talk to them like a cheerleader? Do you talk to them, like, familial?” But that was when we were talking to H.R. leaders. When we were speaking to people maybe in oil and gas, we were like, “Do you talk to people like a coach?” You know what I mean? When you start changing language, because words matter and people can receive them. So are they all men? Are they primarily women? Are they CPAs? Are they advertising people? And kind of getting that understanding that the exercise changes the words, the language that you use changes, so it can be received well by the receiver, because that's the point, right? You don't want to alienate someone with language as well. So language, also, is a big part.

Douglas: It also, I was beginning to think about, like, not only what's happening in the room, what's happening to your agenda, to how you're just even approaching the facilitation, what's happening in the room with the participants, but also what's happening to all the participants outside the room. So all the stuff that they're dealing with and the baggage they bring in, the trauma, the stress, etc. And I think that has an element of equifinality to it as well, because, those things are going to have a way of resolving themselves, and all this lives in this ecosystem. It’s like Russian nested dolls or something, right? 

Harold: Yeah. 

Douglas: And so it brings me back to this thing you mentioned around acknowledging and creating space for these things that everyone's dealing with, whether it be racial unrest or whether it be some bomb just blew up at work. Like, there's a production outage. People are bringing stuff into the room, emotions into the room. I loved your word acknowledge because I think a lot of facilitators will say holding space. And that's kind of a very facilitator-centric term, whereas, acknowledge, that’s a term everyone can understand. And we just want to take some time and honor it and let people have that transition moment, because we can’t expect them to flip a switch and just throw this stuff to the side. 

So, I know you had a recent moment that felt kind of special around giving people the ability to acknowledge.

Harold: Yeah. I was in a meeting—and I borrowed this from someone, so it’s not a Harold Hardaway original, as I like to say—everyone was, I realized, feeling some type of way about something, with all the racial unrest. And knowing you have introverts and extroverts, and maybe some people want to talk; some people don't want to talk. And it was on a Zoom meeting, and we've been on so many of those recently. The thing was, “Hey, think of one, maybe two words that describe how you feel, and type it into the chat. And you don't have to say it,” but as the facilitator, she read them out loud. And when I did it and borrowed it from her, I read it out loud. And people were like, “tired,” “exhausted,” “hopeful.” And there's just something really powerful about reading those things out loud, acknowledging where people are in the space, and so you as a facilitator kind of know what people are bringing with them. And at the same time, I'm opening it up and thanking everyone, acknowledging where people are, and then saying, if there is someone who wants to expand on how they're feeling, give them the opportunity and invite them to do so. Some people, at one meeting, a few people really chose to do that, to the point of tears. And another meeting, no one did, but they were saying, “Thank you for at least allowing us to say this and acknowledge where we are,” and how that really is kind of the lens and the emotions that people are kind of bringing to the work, “Even though we're all there for the same purpose, this is where we are and how we feel.” And sometimes just the act of acknowledging something is really powerful and gets it out there.

Douglas: You know, it's like recently ran into this concept of silence breakers. And I instantly fell in love with it because it's so easy to be silent because it's the safe thing to do. And also, I think in, definitely in my career, just this reinforcement of what professionalism is and professionalism became this thing that was so inhuman. Like, we weren’t supposed to bear our feelings or touch on some of these sensitive issues. And I think we do our best work when we're the most human we can be, and, to your point, creating these moments of acknowledgment can get us there. 

And I wanted to just observe something that I've been tracking on, whether it's appreciative inquiry, or there's a really great Liberating Structure called seen, heard, and respected, and this moment of reading those feelings out loud means that the people that wrote those, they're feeling heard. And I was recently in an alternate relating workshop, and a gentleman pointed out how emotional it was to hear his story repeated back. And really struck me because I do a lot of this work, and so I'm around this type of stuff a lot, and went back to that moment. And I put myself in that gentleman’s shoes and thought, “Wow, if that is an emotional moment, the reason that's emotional is that it doesn't happen much. So that means that he’s experiencing hearing someone really empathize, really unders—there's evidence that he was heard, and that was touching.” And if we can create more moments like that, I think we can drive much more business value. But the problem is everyone focuses so much on the business value, they can't set the initial conditions to where that stuff can thrive and become outside. Love this notion of acknowledgment.

Harold: It doesn't 100 percent relate to business facilitation, but I went through a leadership development sort of class process. And there was this moment where it was like, “What's one thing that you would like someone to acknowledge you for,” or something. And so you write it on a sheet of paper. And you didn't even know why you were writing it, right? “Who would you want that person to be?” And so I remember I wrote down that I was a good dog dad because my dog had passed away. And I would want it to be my pet, right?

Douglas: Sure.

Harold: And the interesting thing was, hours later, she picked them up and she read them, and then I had to choose someone to play the role of my pet and acknowledge me for being a good parent, a good pet parent. To him—because I was carrying a lot of guilt. Don't get me wrong. We went to all the vets. I got all the medication. I did everything. But I couldn't change this outcome. And, you know, it's like a type A person, who is so used to making things happen for everybody, for companies, I couldn't save, you know. And so someone acknowledging me like they were my pet broke me down, you know? But it was the most healing thing I think I had experienced in so long. I slept like a baby. I forgave myself. So that idea of acknowledging and kind of hearing things back—I know it's a little bit off topic from business work, but there is a lot of power in that. And I think even from an employee perspective, you want to be acknowledged for certain things from certain people. I mean, how do we allow that to be expressed in some sort of way? So sorry for making a baby left turn there, but it was really powerful.

Douglas: I agree. And these powerful moments are critical if we're going to build really resilient and really strong teams. And that's the kind of stuff that I think that I'm willing to invest in my team. The trust falls and the rope courses, yeah, whatever. But if we can authentically come together and be there for each other, if there is some weight on your shoulders about the end of life around the dog, them taking the 30 seconds over the—or the two minutes or whatever it took to say that—it’s, like, a very small investment that could have huge ramifications on your ability to work more closely together and drive those outcomes. And so if we focus on the health of the team first, we can have these profound impacts versus just trying to utilization, like treating everyone like a factory and just like, go, go, go, go. And so I think that, in a lot of ways, this is the best stuff we could be doing for business outcomes.

Harold: I think so. No one in the room picked anything business related.

Douglas: Right.

Harold: Not a single person. It was like, “I said this to my grandmother, and I didn't have a chance to say something else before she died.” This is, like, where people were going, and this was like a three-month process, two weeks but three months apart. But that's kind of, to your point, what people were bringing in, right? What they were carrying. What needed to be acknowledged. And then after that—I'll speak for myself. I can't speak for everybody—but I know I felt dramatically better, and I felt sort of like healed, and I wasn't, to your point, carrying that around with me all day and trying to do that and still facilitate for other people.

Douglas: You know, it brings me back to this notion of human connection. And when we held the big workshop, right at the beginning of the lockdown, for facilitators to kind of have a conversation on the future of facilitation, the one big, big thing was human connection. It was interesting that on the spectrum, some folks were really concerned about losing it to the in-person human connection. Like, “We're really good at this digital stuff. Will we ever be able to come and have these moments we love?” And so it was kind of like this fear of this dystopian future. Then, the other side was just this notion of like, “Well, are we actually going to be able to do it? Can these tools support real human connection?” 

It's interesting. We talked about this acknowledging and unburdening and supporting each other. But it really does come down to this human connection, and that's where we are most creative. That's how we solve stuff together, is when the connections exist. And so I’m curious to hear about your journey through the virtual space and how you've been able to maintain human connection. And do you have any tricks up your sleeve? Are you still experimenting with things? Just kind of what's there for you as far as human connection in this virtual world?

Harold: Yeah. So, I mean, I'll be honest with you, personally. So all my friends will do Zoom things multiple times a week. But then I actually saw one of my friends and got a hug. And I was like, “Oh, my gosh, I haven't had a hug in eight weeks.” And I freaked out at first because just not used to it. So I don't think there's necessarily a substitute. But one of the things we've been doing is, from a facilitation standpoint, trying to mix it up. So there’re random breakout rooms and maybe prompts that you can send people and bring them back in. There's videos. There's shorter timeframes. All of that stuff has been working, but you're still sitting there, behind your computer. So those things have kept it more interesting for people.

Also, limiting the size of groups. So I know there are the webinars, but also being able to see someone's face. And I know one of your articles that I think you just posted to LinkedIn, I read it earlier. It was, like, cameras have to be on. If your camera's not going to be on, then you don't need to be on the call for certain things. But usually we try to limit—because we do focus groups and research as well, and it actually has worked out pretty well to make them engaging, but I can't say that there's necessarily the human connection. 

I think part of it is that thing about being an invitation, looking for the connection that I have with someone. So whenever I have an interview for a focus group or research, do a little bit of what I call appropriate stalking, meaning I went to LinkedIn, I read some articles on folks, and they try to figure out, did we go to similar schools or do we have… and try to make that connection and really talk about all of that first. So you know how sometimes at work, what would happen in a meeting is everyone talked about their weekends and all the things that had nothing to do with the meeting because everyone needed that. On Zoom calls, I try to facilitate that, and I’ll do my homework, even if it’s someone I don’t know for sure, do my homework and figure out, well, how can we make that connection, and how can I recreate that sort of experience where we waste the first 10 minutes? It just—it's not a waste, right? It really does establish that human connection, and we laugh and we joke. And then we're able to easily transition into work because I know something about you, you know something about me, and it kind of gets back to sort of ingratiating yourself to someone else. So I just try to think, how can I recreate that first 10 minutes of every meeting that we all sit through, over Zoom? And that requires a little bit of homework, and I’m okay with that.

Douglas: Yeah. It kind of parallels this kind of researching their cultural norms, the words they use, so that if you can relate to them and make them feel like you care and you spent some time, that's a great way to open. Really love it. And I agree, having that time up front, whether it's the weather report or some sort of way for them to transition in, sometimes people just need boot-up time. They’ve been running from meeting to meeting, and just kind of just jumping straight into it, that's not always the best place to be.

Harold: And I will say, the extrovert in me will write down, and someone, one of my coaches—I feel like I've had a lot of coaches in my life, Douglas—but one of my coaches would say write “Wait” on a sheet of paper. It stands for Why Am I Talking? I don’t know if you’ve heard this or not. I will usually write that, Wait. Why am I talking? And it's another way of saying hold space for people. But I don't have a problem talking, so if I just, like, shut up for a minute, usually someone's going to speak, or they'll keep talking, or so... Yeah. Wait. That's another little technique that I have.

Douglas: You know, it's such a powerful facilitation technique just to use silence. And I was recently facilitating one of our weekly facilitation practices. So we'll host a free event every Thursday, where facilitators can come in and just try stuff out. We used to do it once a month, but now that everyone's virtual and trying to figure out this virtual stuff, we just started doing it every week. It's been really fun because we’ve got a global audience and everything. But I was facilitating something, and while I had folks doing solo work and adding stickies to this MURAL, I was telling some stories just to kind of entertain folks. And then, when we did the critique, because we always do a critique. After people go, we’ll do a Rose, Thorn, Bud, just so that people can kind of learn because that's the whole point: come, practice, learn. One lady's feedback was, “Your stories were so interesting that I couldn’t think of what I wanted to write.” And I thought, oh of course, I should shut up. 

Harold: Well, but you have great stories. And nothing else, she’ll remember the stories, right? 

Douglas: That’s right. 

But, yeah. I love this acronym, WAIT. This sounds so important. I haven’t heard that one before. 

So other tips? I guess from just navigating this crazy virtual world and launching out on your own, building your own company, what advice might you have for the facilitators out there that are following in your footsteps?

Harold: You know, I always try to think of any meeting as an experience. And so to me that's really important, whether it's the music that's playing when someone comes in. I mean, even when we've hosted webinars, we'll have music playing to kind of like set the tone and let people know we're about to have a good time today. Some of the questions at the beginning. So I think if anyone can think about it as an experience and walk people through it and navigate them through the process, that would be my first tip for anyone getting into this space. 

Number two, I would say think of yourself as a quarterback. For our company, we do a lot of work with culture as well, branding, etc., and we're always like, hey, we’re a quarterback. We need a team, and nothing's going to get done without the people in the room. So even if you're at the front, reading the room, reading the defense, calling the next play is really important. And so those two things, you know. 

And I would also say—oh, gosh. Well, where I said knowledge feelings, but also kind of getting people centered is another thing, in terms of the podcast. Not podcast, but meeting. Get people moving. If you can get people moving, that's fun. And so, I mean, we've done things by daring people to stand up, because most people have on random shorts, even though you’re business on the top and, like, party on the bottom. Well, work-appropriate party on the bottom. But, you know, like what kind of PJs are you wearing? And to your point, I mean, in the practice that you all they're doing and getting together with ideas. I've had friends who've done things from, like, quarantine kitchen, and it's like a random kind of a game. 

So like, I think this idea of prototyping. I think that's what I want to settle on. I’ve probably rambled. So prototyping is the one thing that one of my friends mentioned to me, and he's the person I call all the time. You know, he's very good at games and gamification. And we brought him in on projects. And the idea of thinking, just try it and prototype something and see if it works, and if it doesn't work, scrap it. But sometimes perfect just gets in the way of progress. And for me, I want things to be perfect. But once I just tell myself, “It's just a prototype,” then, I'm able to move quickly and get feedback on it. And then, I have the next iteration. And so for me, I think that's really important. And in this space, and I know my company and my business partner, what we've done is, let's try this, let's try this, let's try this. And I just tell myself, “It's just a prototype. It's just a prototype. It doesn't have to be perfect,” because that has been the enemy of progress, for me personally, in a space where you have to respond quickly. So that would be my one big thing that I’ve learned in the middle of COVID, specifically, in transitioning to virtual is prototyping.

Douglas: Awesome. I love it. As you know, I'm a big fan of prototypes. 

Harold: Yes. 

Douglas: And so I will double down on that answer. Absolutely. If you're curious about something, afraid of something, a prototype can be really powerful because it can give you the confidence to go give it a spin and see what works, see what doesn't work. Definitely, perfection can be paralyzing and prevent it from trying and making that first step. 

So, Harold, it's been a pleasure chatting with you today and hearing about the importance of timing, acknowledging, ingratiating your participants. Such an awesome concept. And then, equifininity, equifinality—

Harold: Equifinality, yeah.

Douglas: —is now in my vocabulary. I love the word. It is a— it is something that explains something that I've known to be true, but in a way that packages, I think, it up in a really nice little box. I love it. 

And so, just in closing, how can folks find you? How can they get in contact and potentially work with you?

Harold: Thank you for that. So Harold Hardaway on LinkedIn. I'm pretty active on there. I work at Cardigan, so you can find us at cardigancg.com. We help organizations with branding; internal communications, whether that's campaigns, change management, been getting a lot of calls, obviously, for the DEI space. You know as well. Find us there. You can email me at harold@cardigancg.com. And so, yeah, find me in all of those places. 

Thank you so much for having me on the show. I was excited and honored when you reached out, wanted to know what little ole me had to say about anything, so thank you for that.

Douglas: Yeah, absolutely. It's been a pleasure chatting today, Harald, and I look forward to talking more soon.

Harold: Yes, we will. Thank you.

Outro: Thanks for joining me for another episode of Control the Room. Don't forget to subscribe to receive updates when new episodes are released. If you want more, head over to our blog, where I post weekly articles and resources about working better together, voltagecontrol.com.

"Seeing the magic of bringing people together, setting clear agendas, and leaving with action items was eye-opening for me."- Lipika Grover

In this episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast, host Douglas Ferguson converses with Lipika Grover, a consultant, executive coach, and facilitator. They explore Lipi's career journey, starting from her early experiences at Accenture, where she observed effective facilitation during high-profile client sessions. Lipi emphasizes the importance of preparation, follow-up, and creating safe spaces for dialogue. She discusses managing group dynamics, particularly with chatty executives, and highlights the value of diverse voices in discussions. The episode underscores the transformative potential of effective facilitation in driving meaningful group interactions and fostering collaboration.

“I've come to believe that trust is an emergent phenomenon. You do not have to go in trusting the people that you're engaging with. What I do believe you need is a shared question and it acts as a strange attractor. So to get at that, back up a sec and say my entry point for engaging was really a breakthrough kind of insight, which is that all change begins with disruption. And if you think about it, it makes sense because if things are going smoothly, there's no reason for change. And so for me the question became how do you develop a healthy relationship with disruption? And what I have found is that you can create a bubble in disruption, create a space, facilitators, often call it a container that it's a space that holds both compassion and complexity, is the way I think about it.” - Peggy Holman

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Peggy Holman about her work supporting diverse groups to face complex issues.  She begins with how and why she made the transition from software systems to people systems.  Later, Peggy shares her three keys for creating space that holds both compassion and complexity.  We also discuss the importance of setting clear intentions.  Listen in for tips on how to create hubs to help navigate complexity.

“When I first started facilitating, I was of the mindset that getting anything out of that meeting was better than getting nothing out of it. They were going around the room almost trying to show everybody how smart they were, by rehearsing various things and saying this, that, or the other, and I cut that out. I was like, "Hey, let's get to what we agree on quickly so that we can talk about what we disagree on." It was as simple as time boxing people, to say, "All right, hey, look, you two get together and come up with something, you two get together and come up with something, and you only have one minute to do X, Y, or Z. How are you going to do it?" To be honest with you, I don't exactly remember what I did. I think I blacked out for the whole thing, but it worked.” -John Hawley

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with John Hawley about his journey becoming a meetings facilitator and self-proclaimed people nerd. He shares practical tactics for leading better meetings, how to set yourself up for success as a facilitator, and the power of vulnerability. We then discuss how John trains to develop skills as a facilitator. Listen in to hear his perspective on in-person vs. Zoom meeting facilitation.  

“I think that is my superpower. I do connect. I believe that no one can be successful without the other. We need each other to thrive and we have to realize that we are strong in certain areas and others are strong in other areas. And together, when we do connect, we can do really incredible stuff. So I like connecting people, where people are talking to me and in my mind, I'm already thinking who am I going to introduce this person to so he or she can make his dream a reality. And that sort of kicks in automatically.” - Ma Roselle Junio

In this episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast, host Douglas Ferguson talks with Roselle, Global Head of Quality Training and Optimization for Concur Expense Audit and Capture Services at SAP. They discuss the importance of facilitation in the workplace, with Roselle sharing her journey and experiences in leading diverse teams. She emphasizes the value of connecting people, understanding multicultural dynamics, and having a growth mindset. Roselle also shares her approach to meetings and the importance of debriefing. She expresses her passion for creating safe, inclusive spaces and her plans to build a facilitation community within her team.

“People are feeling really overwhelmed and, of course, moving between Zoom meetings, and feel like they’re not having those opportunities between meetings to really connect with each other. And so when you're saying, and I love the mantra, "Get the work done in the meeting," work is social and work is playful, and so you need to have opportunities for that in the meeting.”

Hailey Temple is the Learning Experience Lead at MURAL. She’s involved herself in on-side corporate design, and has  Enthusiastic and compassionate, Hailey challenges facilitators to approach meetings and constituents with honesty and authenticity.

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Hailey about injecting humanity into our meetings, widening the boundaries of your understanding and creating spaces for all to flourish. Listen in to see how her unique experiences in learning create avenues of breakthrough and change for herself, and those around her.

“Yeah. I think it's absolutely true. I think there are also really interesting things that happen with adults when it comes to playing of, why don't we? What's in the way of that? Is also really interesting to me too, when all those things that you're seeing are true, right? If it's as needed in our lives, why aren't we doing it? What is it? I think, from what I've found in facilitation, what holds people back from ... We think of play, I think, when we think of, as facilitators often we'll think of the icebreaker or the stoke activity or something like that. But I find it to be so much more about ingraining it into all of it. And it's more of a mindset for play or a posture for play, I'll often say too, and what gets in the way of that for people.” -Shannon Varcoe

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Shannon Varcoe about her experience building a career as a designer and facilitator focused on injecting more play into our work.  She shares how her diverse background in theater and engineering has informed her work.  Later, Shannon addresses some uncomfortable moments in facilitation like reflections, silence, play, and debriefing.  We then discuss correctness, momentum, and collaboration.   Listen in for interesting thoughts on the future of teamwork.

“So we know that, that's how we create our shows at Second City. We have a 12 week process, we develop in front of the audience, and we know the first four weeks there's going to be a lot of seemingly garbage, but we allow that seemingly garbage to surface because there might be a gem actually inside there, especially when sort of looked at a different way.” - Kelly Leonard

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Kelly Leonard about his three plus decades managing the legendary sketch comedy group The Second City.  He begins with reflections on the shared origins of team improvisation and social work.  Later, Kelly explores self verification theory and how it can lead to stronger relationships faster.   We also discuss group brainstorming and breaking down silos.  Listen in for a plan to save the world by improving listening skills.

"I think it's about finding, as an individual, what recovery methods work for you and how you are able to carve that out in your own unique schedule."

-Ceili Cascarano

Sleep seems to be a perpetually tricky routine to land, and it’s one of the most important pillars of our overall health–it affects everything from our immune systems to our cognitive function. Listen in as I, your host Douglas Ferguson, discuss this and more with Ceili Cascarano on Episode 4 of the Control the Room Podcast.

Ceili is currently the co-founder and CEO of Somn, a digital sleep expert that helps people tackle their unique sleep issues. Somn brings clarity to the world of sleep. Without individuals understanding why they can't sleep, they aren't able to come up with a solution that works. Somn helps people navigate their sleep journeys and assists them in their sleep process.

Ceili has over ten years of experience in Big 50 corporate healthcare America where she worked on large national brands. She has recently worked in corporate innovation, where she helps build partnerships between Somn and other companies with a good product-market fit.

In today’s episode, Ceili and I  talk about how sleep impacts daily function, different approaches people are taking for individual recovery, and how your daily routine can affect your quality of sleep. We discuss the emotional and physical benefits of exercise, how to speed up the decision-making process in meetings, and why you should never go into a meeting without knowing the purpose of the meeting. 

Show Highlights

[01:13] Ceilie’s corporate marketing and innovation experience.

[03:39] The factors that create a market for Somn.

[07:08] The effect of sleep when facilitating meetings.

[10:14] Science-driven resources and solutions to achieve quality sleep.

[13:33] The ability to remove yourself from everyday situations gives your mind space for creativity.

[18:45] The power of a good-enough-to-go viewpoint.

[22:43] Accommodation of structured breaks throughout your day.

[27:35] Ceili on being a good leader.

[30:30] Owning your power in meetings and taking responsibility for your actions.

[33:00] How to take the Somn assessment.

Links and Resources

Ceili on Linked In

Somn on the web

About the Guest

Ceili is currently the co-founder and CEO of Somn, a digital sleep expert that helps people tackle their unique sleep issues. She is a strategist and business builder with 13+ years experience managing established brands and emerging innovations in CPG, healthcare and healthtech. Ceili spent over 10 years at Fortune 50 companies, and she has worked most recently in corporate venture capital, assessing new verticals, products, technologies, and business models for investment and growth. She has experience as a commercial leader and P&L owner for LISTERINE® and TYLENOL®.

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation agency that helps teams work better together with custom-designed meetings and workshops, both in-person and virtual. Our master facilitators offer trusted guidance and custom coaching to companies who want to transform ineffective meetings, reignite stalled projects, and cut through assumptions. Based in Austin, Voltage Control designs and leads public and private workshops that range from small meetings to large conference-style gatherings. 

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Contact Voltage Control

Intro: Welcome to the Control the Room Podcast, a series devoted to the exploration of meeting culture and uncovering cures for the common meeting. Some meetings have tight control, and others are loose. To control the room means achieving outcomes while striking a balance between imposing and removing structure, asserting and distributing power, leaning in and leaning out, all in the service of having a truly magical meeting.

Douglas: Really excited to have Ceili Cascarano on the show today. She is the CEO and co-founder of Somn, and Somn was created to help people navigate the mysterious world of sleep.

Welcome to the show, Ceili.

Ceili: Thanks for having me.

Douglas: Let's kick it off with a little bit about how you got your start and a little bit more about Somn.

Ceili: Great. So I am a good 10 years in Fortune 50 big company, corporate America and had a phenomenal experience in a big healthcare company, where I worked on tons of brands, and had a phenomenal experience understanding how businesses run. And most recently, actually worked in corporate innovation, where I helped assess startups, partner with startups, and really helped them understand product market fit in service of partnership with this big company.

And so that sort of gave me the startup itch, and was actually working on a project in the sleep space with this company, myself and two other gentlemen. And as corporate priorities always do, the pendulum swung, and they decided to double down on core businesses, move away from whitespace, move away from sort of new verticals. And myself and these other two gentlemen said, “Hey, we really believe in what we've been working on. Can we take it and run with it on the outside?” and took a leap of faith and have been doing that for about a year now. The company was really supportive and really wanted to see this flourish, even though it couldn't happen inside the walls.

And so we just launched the site, still working through a few of the early iterations of that, and excited to be bringing a little bit more clarity to the world of sleep. It's a really complicated space. There are lots of factors that affect sleep. And one of the biggest issues in this space is that people just don't understand what's driving their unique issue. And so they can't navigate their way to a solution. And so we're there to help demystify some of that and help people navigate that journey and handhold them a little bit in that process.

Douglas: It's really exciting to see how much personalization is coming into fields of science like this. It's interesting. There's developments on the population health, and then there's also developments on personalization. And it's fascinating to see them both moving and how they both can impact us at the macro level and micro level. And I'm personally really interested in how I can—like, the quantified self kind of stuff—where I can learn more about me and how I need to treat myself versus oh, here's this population study that says 80 percent of the people benefit from this, but what's unique about me. What sort of stuff are you starting to find?

Ceili: I think the interesting thing in the world of sleep is that it spans such a spectrum of factors, of lighter-touch issues through its actual medical diagnoses. And so what we're seeing emerge in this space is a strive for personalization. You're absolutely right. What ends up happening, though, is that a lot of these technologies, a lot of the wearables are right for one subset of the population. They're right for one underlying factor. Maybe it’s meditation-forward device that's helping with some of the racing mind and the anxiety. That's not going to work for somebody whose sleep is affected by hormonal changes, like moving into menopause. And so you are seeing acknowledgment of customization, of personalization, but it's really hard to navigate all the various things and factors that might affect sleep. And so it is a big, sweaty problem, and we’ve definitely taken higher up in the funnel sort of demystifying as a foundational exploration, what is it that's affecting your sleep? And then, let's help you solve it.

And that will shape our roadmap. That'll shape how we think about solutions we bring to market. But first and foremost, we are focused on the demystification. We've created a digital assessment that has taken over 25 clinical scales, and turned them into about five-minute experience to help you understand what's affecting your sleep so you can find that personal solution. So you're spot on, and we're seeing it in so many fields. Sleep is no exception.

Douglas: Yeah, it’s fascinating. It reminds me of a story that we shared, and start with them, about the Crash Test Dummies. When they were first developed, they were developed by men, so the shapes and sizes of these things resembled the average man. And then the sad, sad thing—we both laugh because it's absurd—but it's actually a sad, sad thing because you look at the statistics of deaths and injuries on the highway, and women are off the charts, much, much more likely to get injured. And so, to your point, if these devices are only helping a subset of the population, how can we start to serve the others? And I think that's a noble cause.

Ceili: Yes, we hope so. And also acknowledge we are never going to be able to solve everybody's issues, underlying factors. And so how can we leverage some of our data, leverage some of those top-of-funnel experiences to get them on the path to the right partner or to the right doctor? So that's a little bit longer term, but we really think we can play an important role in the ecosystem, where it's not about us or a competitor; it's about how do we get you on the path to the right solution. And I am very glad as a woman that there has been some acknowledgment of that, as I wear my seatbelt.

Douglas: Yes, absolutely. Better airbags, for sure.

I was thinking about this whole phenomenon that if you're going to facilitate a room and you expect them to be there for the room, you have to be there for yourself first. Your psychology has to be stable if you’re going to help manipulate—and manipulate’s the wrong word—but help bring forth some change or take a group in a direction. And so when I think about that, I think in relation to sleep, it seems that sleep plays a big role in that. If we're not getting quality sleep, then it's going to be hard for us to show up as facilitator. So I'm curious to hear your thoughts there.

Ceili: Yeah, we talk a lot about sleep, obviously, and the role it plays for overall health. It's critical. It's becoming more understood. That's not just about hours. That's not just about going to bed at a set time. Even that looks individualized to some extent. I really like taking that even to the notion of recovery. So how do we view sleep in the context of recovery and allowing our body to do what it needs to do overnight to repair itself? How do we think about recovery throughout the day?

My co-founder, one of my co-founders and CTO, is a huge believer in the mini nap. Literally been in sessions with him where he'll walk away for 20 minutes and go take a catnap. I wish I had that super power. But you're absolutely right. Then you think about facilitating groups and being in the right headspace, the intentional commitment to recovery, everything from the good sleep at night, but also the recovery through the day, whatever that looks like for you. If it's a moment to yourself, if it's the catnap, if it's a little bit of meditation, all of these things are impacting our ability to function and to operate at our highest level possible.

Douglas: I think about the fatigue that we are experiencing with all these virtual meetings, and also the extra stress. We've talked about having the kids around, and, sure, we love our kids, but when they're tapping at the door when we're trying to—it as another source of information that we had to process. And that's coming in, and we have to prioritize and delegate and regulate. And there's just a lot more coming at us that we have to filter and deal with. And so I agree. Taking those moments of recovery.

It reminds me of athletes have built-in recovery. It's very planned and very intentional. So they might train really hard, and then, there's a day of recovery. And they have very specific tools to do that, whether it's ice baths and saunas and massage and all these things. And so I love this notion of the catnap. And I'll sometimes just say, “Hey, can we—instead of doing the Zoom, can we just do a phone call?” And then I'll go sit on my recliner and just kind of veg out but get the work done, and that way when I come back to my desk, I feel a little bit more charged up. And so have you seen other types of tactics or approaches people have been taking to get that recovery?

Ceili: Especially in today's environment, it's so individual. And so the catnap might work for my CTO, who has one small kid at home. It just doesn't work for me. I will be crawled on and slobbered on and hair pulled. So I do think it's about finding as an individual what recovery methods work for you and how are you able to carve that out within your own unique schedule.

We have seen, especially through the sleep lens, a large rise in things like meditation. Absolutely. I mean, you have phenomenal science-driven resources out there, like Headspace, like Calm, that are helping to facilitate that in an accessible way. Talk therapy, especially in this current environment where therapy used to be more face to face, moving more to the telemedicine model and that becoming more mainstream. Absolutely an uptick as well.

And I do think it's just about your habits and your routine. We talk a lot about it, actually, at Somn, and is one of our five factors that we focus on is routine and what is the impact of routine on your day, on your sleep? And so how are you making those choices to support that recovery in the current environment?

So, I mean, for me, I'm pretty competitive. I got an Apple Watch, and I'm getting my 30 minutes of exercise every day. And so while exercise itself is not about recovery—that's about performance, and that's about exerting effort—taking the intentional minutes after to recover and to have some time to myself and to escape the chaos of life for everybody right now has been really important.

So I think it's a range of things. I think it's very individual. And you have to acknowledge that your situation may look different than mine and find ways to build that recovery in a way that works for you.

Douglas: That’s really cool that you mention exercise as a way of disconnecting or resetting. I was recently talking to Jon Fitch about this, about how you can actually vary your level of intensity to dial in the type of recovery you want. So if you want to totally reset your brain, do something really intense, because (a) you're not going to be to think about anything else because you're devoting all your resources to that intense cardio. Also, like the deprivation of oxygen—you're basically pushing your systems to the max. So it's like you can't stress out of whatever your cousin just did or whatever. So that can be a really great way to move past this moment and kind of hit a reset button. But if you're needing to really concentrate on something and think through it, but you're needing to kind of change the scenery, then a short walk or brisk walk might be just the thing that the doctor ordered. And you mentioned taking walks as well as being something that you are finding relief in.

Ceili: That’s right. I just actually started running again. And you're spot on. I was in the humidity and dying and couldn't think about anything other than how miserable I was and how much I hated it. But I have intentionally—and I didn't really realize this until you mentioned it—I've intentionally varied that with walking for my physical purpose. But the emotional and the mental benefit of that as well has been huge to vary that as well. And being able to take the walks, to use that even for a creative reflection, I've started building walks even into my schedule as part of my work day as a time to reflect. I mean, you know, in this environment, Zoom fatigue, even without quarantine, we were facing meeting fatigue. And carving out time to think is so much harder than I think any of us realize, and the ability to remove yourself from a setting and find a new one, a new inspiration, is key to both creativity, but being able to find what you were talking about at the beginning, some of that mental headspace to effectively lead and manage teams.

Douglas: I always like to say that if you create space, innovation rushes in. So if we’re just like—if our calendars are crammed full, if our brains are crammed full, where's the juice for cool things to happen? So I like that notion of having this headspace for that.

You just talked about meeting fatigue. And we were, before the show, talking about as a startup we can just jump in a room and make some decisions. And big companies require, even though it’s just a lot of churn in conversations and circular this and that. And I'm just curious what you found. Are there ways to speed up decisions? How do we get to the destination a little bit quicker, even when we're having to deal with larger groups?

Ceili: If I had a perfect answer for that, I'd probably be a billionaire.

Douglas: It’s a tough thing, right?

Ceili: It is. The two things that immediately come to mind, number one is being very clear up front on the meeting purpose, the meeting objective. So I was just talking to somebody about this. Had a meeting pop up, no context, I don't know what this is about, and now having to spend time to figure that out, figure out, am I the right attendee? Am I going to prioritize this? So the better expectation setting we can set up front and what outcome we want at least sets the right framework going in.

Now, I fully acknowledge that might look different at every company. So when I was at big company, the culture was very relationship driven. I remember early in my career, we tried to start a very formal, “Okay, when you send the email, there needs to be an objective, a purpose, a goal; the attendees,” and culturally, it didn't work. It was too formal. It was too structured.

So how do you lean into the culture of the organization? So if it's a swing by when we're back in the office, if it's Slacking me, if it’s a text, just helping to set the expectation for some of these meetings, however that makes sense culturally, is first and foremost a huge opportunity to overcome the, “Well, this meeting could have been an email sentiment.”

And then second, and it's something I've really grown into in my career, is a mentality and is hard for a lot of perfectionists but I think is critical, especially in the world of innovation, is having the mentality of good enough and go. So you're never going to get it perfect. You're never going to get all of the answers. But how do we get to the core of what we're trying to achieve; align, commit, and go? And again, that's a mindset. It is easier said than done. But as a facilitator, setting the expectation that this doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be good enough for now until we have new information or more information that will lead us to learn, evolve, pivot has really, really helped me as I've grown in my career and as I've learned how to prioritize and also not to stress the impossible pursuit of perfection.

Douglas: I love that. You know, it's funny. I see so many companies, when they're in that pursuit of perfection, they're pursuing and pursuing and pursuing. And then finally, it gets to this point where it’s like, “Oh, now we have to release it.” I mean, it’s like, it’s so ridiculous to me because we could have just skipped all that in-between stuff because you still made that decision at the end to do the thing you could have done much earlier. And I think to me, the biggest problem is that people don't take note of the fact that many decisions are reversible.

Ceili: Absolutely. And as you were speaking, the word that came to mind, they don't leave room for learning. And the past few years, both on the startup side and the corporate side, where I've really sat and spent a lot of my energy, is how you create the room for learning, because there's always going to be something you didn't expect. There's always going to be an insight that develops. And I truly believe that this pursuit of perfection hinders the ability to learn, which rightfully then leads to iteration or to new insights or to new opportunities. And on the corporate side in particular, you want it to be buttoned up and perfect, and you want to go then and pitch it to the C-suite and for it to be shiny and exactly how you have it in your head. But the reality is we don't have a crystal ball. We don't know. We don't know how the market will react. We don't know how consumers will like a feature or something else that we never planned for. So sitting in the space of learning and really allowing that good-enough-and-go mentality to support that pursuit of learning has been really important in my career.

Douglas: That’s great. And I come back to your point around when you were talking about the structure being too, let's say formal, for a company that's very relationship based. And when I heard you describe the things that were necessary to create better results, they sounded more like principles to me than structure. And so I think that a lot of times when people hear those things, though, when they hear, “Oh, we've got to set expectations,” they tend to jump the structure. The solution they go to is like very rigid stuff. But like, hey, if we're just clearer, if we agree that we're never going to walk into a meeting without understanding the purpose, we don't have to have a consistent, rigid structure. We can be very relationship and informal about how we communicate that. But just hold that true as a value that we will not walk into a meeting that we don't feel like we're going to provide value in.

Ceili: Doug, I love that. And what's coming to mind is this notion of aligning on the what, what is it that are guiding principles; and allowing room for the hows, so how that gets executed, how we prop that principle up and live and do it every day.

Listen, you know, companies are different and sometimes maybe culture needs to change. But this balance of the what and how when it comes to some of those values and principles, you're spot on, are two levers we can pull. And I think sometimes people get scared that it has to look a certain way.

Douglas: Yeah. And if we can ladder all that into the why, then we're really cooking.

Ceili: Absolutely. You’ve hit the mecca at that point.

Douglas: So I want to ask you a somewhat facetious question. So we talked a little bit about facilitators needing sleep. It’s important to recover, be on the A game, and do that self-care, because you spend a lot of time taking care of your participants. And if you haven't taken care of yourself first, it's going to be difficult. But what about participants? I saw this funny video loop. I don’t know, it was maybe four months ago or something. And there was a participant falling asleep in the session, and all the other participants started clapping to wake her up. And it's somewhat funny, but also somewhat sad. Like, she was—now, assuming she's not narcoleptic or anything, she was so tired that she—or the session was so boring, she fell asleep. So I've just wondered if that conjures up any stories or relates to any of the work that you're doing. I mean, it’s somewhat facetious, but also, I think it’s a curious thing to explore, this notion of attendees being deprived.

Ceili: Yeah. So one story that comes to mind is I was at a training one time that was actually very focused on performance and recovery. And a very senior leader had, very much on this topic, talked about for employees to facilitate some of the recovery for participants, for employees in their day to day. They had put nap pods throughout the maybe first floor. But as a place for employees to recharge, maybe take that catnap, and that nobody used them. And somebody turned to this gentleman and said, “Have you ever used one?” He said, “Oh, no, never.” And then he caught himself and realized what that response was reflecting, of you can put the shiny objects out there, you can do all the cool things, but if you don't have leaders or facilitators living into those principles and setting the same example, it's really hard for employees or participants to do the same.

And so where I’ve seen really successful meetings enable participants to promote some of that recovery is a combination of structured breaks. So the rule I've heard lately, especially with some of the Zoom work sessions that I've been on, is 50 minutes and then a break, no matter what. So building in the structured, but then also those informal check-ins. As you said, sometimes the topic is dragging, or sometimes it's post lunch and people, it's starting to settle, and they're losing steam a little bit. How do you tune into the needs of the group as you're facilitating and make those impromptu stretch breaks or quick walks or quick breaks and allow for that combination of structure and spontaneity as well?

When I was in B-School, I interned at a company where they were very focused on us for employee productivity, and there literally used to be an alarm that went off every—I want to say it was every two hours. And everybody would line up, and we would do calisthenics together. And I sort of laughed at it at the time, but it was so ahead of the curve. And so I do think there are things in the toolkit that facilitators can bring in, whether it’s stretches. I have this great app called the 7 Minute Workout app. It's literally down and dirty. You can do a really light touch, quick exercise all the way up to more hardcore. I have not tried the hardcore one yet, so please take that with a bit of a grain of salt. But I do think as leaders, as facilitators, we have to live into the principles, create room and structure for that recovery, but then also tune into our employees, tune into our participants, and say, “Hey, you know what. Actually, we're at the 30-minute mark, and it's time. Let’s stretch our legs and get outside. Let’s do a little bit of calisthenics,” whatever that might look like.

Douglas: That’s cool. I have two things I’ll share. I was doing a virtual conference. The conference is in Bangkok, which was really strange because (a) I was up really late to do this virtual conference. And I had mixed feelings because I didn't have to hop on a plane and deal with jet lag and all that to get to this conference. But also, I was kind of sad that I wasn't in Bangkok. I'm talking with all these folks in Thailand, but I wasn't actually there experiencing the city. So it was a lot of weird mixed emotions there. And before we came on, we were in a waiting area. And there was a guy that was giving a session on how to stay more fit during COVID. And his entire exercise routine, it was called Sit and Fit. And there were exercises you could do from your chair, which made me laugh because I was like, “Wait a second. You're going to take the effort to exercise, but not take the small effort it would take to stand up?”

Ceili: So I’ve got to tell you, that reminds me of the planes. You know, how they have the seat exercises, the roll your ankle. Nobody ever does that. So did people actually partake in this, do you think?

Douglas: I don’t—I mean, it was there, and we were kind of getting cued up to go on. So we were watching the thing before us. It was actually really quite nice because any kind of butterflies or stress that I had evaporated watching this guy do hip movements in his chair and stuff.

Ceili: You’re like, if he can do hip movements from his chair, I can go on and facilitate this.

Douglas: Yeah. I can talk about innovation. No big deal.

The other thing I'll share is you were talking about doing stretches in your meetings and workshops. And in our weekly facilitation practice, we've seen a really cool technique where—and someone had a name for it. I'm forgetting now—but essentially, you go around the meeting, and you have people share a stretch, and then everyone does the stretch. So someone will share the stretch, and we all do the stretch. And then they'll pick the next person. So it kind of creates a cadence because it's really hard. You can't say, “Oh, go around the circle,” because there's no circle in Zoom. And so that kind of “choose the next person” is a nice dynamic there.

So in general, do you have any favorite questions that you find really provocative or interesting or generally get good juice from a crowd or a coworker?

Ceili: One that may not be provocative, but I have found helps to push the boundaries of thinking, to clarify folks’ perspectives, even to bring in more diversity of thought is something as simple as “tell me more,” especially in big meetings. You’re trying to get to a resolution. You're trying to get to an objective. There's folks sometimes that are the leader of the pack. They've got the loudest voice in the room. And what's been really important for me as I have progressed as a leader is ensuring that everybody who wants to have a voice has the opportunity and that I take the time to probe with the folks that maybe are a little more reflective or a little bit quieter. And what I find is that once you get the opening and you use that statement of “tell me more,” it can open up discussion that may not have happened otherwise.

And so a great example. I was in a meeting, and we were pretty close to resolution, and somebody hadn't really talked, but I knew this person had great insight, great perspective. And that statement of “tell me more” actually ended up leading us down a different path to a different resolution of where we would have gotten otherwise, and also ensured that the loudest voice in the room wasn't the one that was heard just because it was the loudest voice in the room.

Douglas: Yeah. It's always tricky when there’s over-talkers or someone feels like they have a lot to share. How do you redirect that and get others talking and stuff? And so I'm always really curious. We call it verbal judo. How do you kind of deflect and get the room kind of really humming and make sure everyone's active?

I was actually reading something last night about microaggressions, and just the current climate has impacted what's kind of come across my reading nightstand and in a positive way, I think. And this microaggression article, it was talking about just general things that you can do in certain situations. Because I think the insidious thing about microaggressions is that we don't realize we're doing them. And so there was this prompt that I thought—and it relates to what you were talking about except slightly different—it's, what do you mean by that? So rather than calling—I thought it was so beautiful because rather than villainizing someone for doing something that they've been conditioned to do all their life, and there's no intent behind it, it can give them the opportunity to take it back in a very soft way. And I think that it's somewhat parallel to the “tell me more about that.” It’s very open, and it kind of puts them in the driver's seat, to take it where they think it should be taken.

Ceili: Yeah. What's really nice about that as well is, I'm sure that you leverage this, too, this notion of assuming best intent, that is on the individual who is maybe on the receiving end of the misinterpretation. And what I love about that is let's empower everybody in this situation. Let me assume best intent as an individual, but let me also prompt a discussion, prompt a reframe, of how I interpreted that, because then maybe I don't even have to worry about assuming best intent because I realize “Oh, actually, I just interpreted that completely wrong.” And so how do we make everybody active participants in that clarification of meeting, that clarification of intention, and own that there are these microaggressions and own that we are players in that and bring power to sort of that full system of players. So I love that. And that is why I love this notion of “tell me more,” because it opens up both to diversity of thought and folks who may not be the loudest voice in the room, but also allows for a bit of an open-ended share. Share what is on your mind. Share what you want to share.

Douglas: One that’s slightly different but definitely in the same ballpark is I love to ask, what do you think we should do? Because when someone brings me a problem, they probably have some notion of what they think we should do. And I think that's very empowering to—also, it kind of keeps me from, as a leader, from getting exhausted from having to have all the answers.

Ceili: You know, right or wrong, I’ve also found myself using that notion of we in terms of—failure is maybe too strong a word—but owning the output. So, “Hey, we committed to doing that. And maybe it was actually you, but we are in this together. So how do we sort of rectify or commit to fixing that?” And so this notion of “it's not you versus me. We are in pursuit of better sleep together,” or “we are in pursuit of better facilitation together,” whatever that is, trying to reframe and reground that common goal probably doesn't happen enough in startups or corporate.

Douglas: I agree. There's not enough focus on the purpose. And, you know, if we live there, then a lot of the other decisions become a lot easier.

Ceili: Though easier said than done, yes.

Douglas: Yes, exactly. It's hard work, and people get uncomfortable doing it. It's like a lot of times when we do purpose work—and that’s where we like to start—and people can get uncomfortable because it's difficult. They'll restate the company slogan and say “Let's move on.” It's like—

Ceili: Check.

Douglas: —we need to move past the jargon, you know?

Ceili: Yeah.

Douglas: In closing, you mentioned that there are five factors that you study or promote within Somn, and recovery is one of them. Maybe share the final four, and let listeners know how they can maybe take the assessment, how they can learn more, how they can lean into what you're working on.

Ceili: Great. I'd love to. So to take the assessment, you go to www.somn.co, and the assessment helps you understand the underlying factors affecting your sleep. And so there are five: mind, so anxiety, racing mind, staying awake at night. Body, so the things that affect your body, your hormone levels, things like that; routine, which I mentioned, is a huge one when it comes to sleep. Just having good routines, productive routines as your routines, as you're readying yourself for bed. The environment, so environment plays a huge role. The street lights, the noise. I live in the city, so I hear all sorts of crazy stuff that can keep me awake at night. And then social, so the effects of your bed partner, your pets. In my case, kids. So all of those things are underlying factors that affect your sleep. They all may have different solutions, different opportunities to address. That doesn't mean that it have to be things that you buy. So that's really what we've distilled it down to. And then the notion of recovery is actually sort of a separate sentiment of how do we live into recovery as a benefit in terms of how you think about sleep and the broader efforts driving to health.

Douglas: Excellent. Thanks for sharing. And I encourage everyone to check this out because sleep is so, so important. And love the work that you're doing. It's been fun chatting.

Ceili: Hey, Doug. Thanks for having me. And I look forward to learning more about all the great stuff you guys are doing.

Outro: Thanks for joining me for another episode of Control the Room. Don't forget to subscribe to receive updates when new episodes are released. If you want more, head over to our blog, where I post weekly articles and resources about working better together.

“ I wanted the classroom to be based on the fact that first and foremost, bring everything you got. Bring all aspects of who you feel and think and believe yourself to be, because we're all constantly forming that idea, all trying to figure out who our authentic self is. So through that, I started to focus more on creating an actual pledge for each of my class periods. So instead of saying these are the rules, I had my students help create community in that particular class period and what that meant to them. So that's something that I've presented nationally on creating a pledge, a classroom pledge for each individual classroom.”-Matthew Reynolds

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Matthew Reynolds about building a Diversity and Inclusion Consultancy, what inspired their strong point of view within the industry, and finding a sense of belonging growing up as a multiethnic, same gender, peaceful warrior in rural America.  We explore strategies for creating environments of humanity and shifting the consciousness of humanity.  We then discuss the distinction between acquaintance, friend, and close friend.  Listen in to question how much of your thinking is your own thinking.

“I don't know whether teacher change issues are any more difficult than others. It's just where I have experience. I think any time you're working on... I mean, you know this. People sort of like the idea of change. They just don't want to. And anytime you're working with really talented experts, human beings accustomed to tremendous autonomy, that's a really difficult room. And so the challenge for... In the educational technology version of me, the challenge was people realized that to use this technology well, they had to teach differently. And that forces all sorts of questions, not about practice necessarily, but about identity. I was like, oh, wait a minute. I thought I was pretty good at what I did. And now, maybe I'm entertaining the possibility that I could be better. And working through those identity issues, I think are really difficult.” -Jeff Grabill

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Erik Skogsberg, Sarah Gretter, and Jeff Grabill about their experience helping Higher Education organizations with design more impactful learning experiences.  They share a handful of the unique challenges of designing change in Higher Education as well as similarities with other change initiatives.  Later, they share how to create the conditions for sustainable longterm change within organizations.  We then discuss the importance of having a shared vocabulary to help all the stakeholders communicate during change initiatives.   Listen in for Michael’s interesting thoughts on the criteria all high-performing teams meet.

“... that ties back to OKRs because it's like what is the one thing that we're going to work on? And that's hard to do, because if you try to focus on 10 things, you're not focusing on anything. But that's what's nice about OKRs and why they can be helpful in meetings or saying no to meetings because well, that's not what my OKR is, that's not what we're focusing on, or we're not hitting this objective because we're failing at these metrics because of these key results one, two, and three. So distilling that down, going into when you're thinking about annual planning, it can be really helpful to, okay, what is our one objective and how are we going to measure it? It can be really helpful to really synthesize and boil down what that problem is and how we're going to measure it going forward.” - Adam Luepke

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Adam Luepke about his experience supporting change initiatives at Quantive.  He begins with reflections on what helped him discover a passion for solving complex business problems.  Later, Adam talks about OKRs and best practices for changing your business.  We also discuss what makes a successful Chief Of Staff.  Listen in for tips on how to synthesize communication.

“Because there is this law or that law, or people started giving us all the reasons that things don't have to change or all of the things that are preventing change, [it] prevents people from dreaming about something different. How do we create these just, equitable, and diverse futures moving forward?”

Lesley is the NC State University Asst. Professor of Design and Author & Creator of the Designers Critical Alphabet, a tool created to spark reflection and introduce designers & design students to critical theory.  She inspires her students & established designers alike to lead with empathy in design and build a greater social impact. With her leading research in equity-centered design thinking through diverse audiences and public health, Leslie represents the significance of a non-specialist approach in design and a larger need for industry-led social responsibility through design. 

In this episode of Control the Room, Lesley and I discuss the greater social impact in design, the journey of her career through design thinking, a detailed look into the designer’s Critical Alphabet, the ideas behind critical race theory, and the necessary reminder of an empathetic approach in design. Listen in to hear how Lesley is expanding her design education footprint for future designers of our generation.

“I realized...that I could teach people[leaders in organizations] to pay attention to their own body all day and all night, but that doesn't change the system unless that person has a motivation to look outside themselves and make a change with the people around them. ”

Jade Duggan is the Strategic Counselor at Mindbody Leadership, a Communications Culture Design expert, and Wellness Coach in Holistic practices. She inspires organizations to lead in mindfulness & self-awareness as the foundation of their company culture. She is committed to establishing healthy practices in business rooted in sensory skills & the intentionality of leadership in organization structure.  From her early holistic roots of acupuncture in the family business, Jade began to recognize its connection towards social reform. Jade continues her mission towards social change in organizations through transformative leadership and unleashing the power of listening to your own body.

In this episode of Control the Room, Jade and I discuss locating your sensory skills as humans through the “light-switch hijack,” navigating facilitation through mindfulness, applying the skills of self-awareness in leadership towards organization infrastructure, and the evolution of the micro-habit practice. Listen in to hear how Jade is inspiring her wellness expertise through organizations to reestablish company structure in mindfulness & self-awareness.

“Yeah, he's been doing some amazing things in his organization. One is that he's been talking about personality as a place to welcome diversity, that everyone doesn't have to be nice all the time, that people who are fractious or have personalities that are annoying, that you can be actually radically inclusive of those personalities. I'm not talking about people who are racist or sexist or those kinds of things. I'm actually just talking about people who always are a little sour or who aren't particularly friendly or whatever it is. And he hasn't made any mandates or edicts. He's just introduced the idea that what if this is a way that one could be radically inclusive, that one could just be curious about not making that person conform to some norm or social standard. And I think it's a fascinating thought as we grapple with ED&I, and equity, diversity and inclusion, and broaden our scope of inclusion to include people who are different in a variety of ways.” - Melanie Parish

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Melanie Parish about her long career as a Leadership Coach.  She starts with reflections on her approach to coaching which prioritizes experimentation.  Later, Melanie talks about radical inclusion and the reframe she uses to help others broaden the range of topics they can discuss.  We also discuss the importance of feedback cultures and personal wellness.  Listen in for insights into leadership essentials.

“A lot of times, people will think that they're experimenting because they're being scrappy and moving fast, but they're not learning as they go. The fundamental benefit comes when you stop and reflect and learn and improve.” Kai Haley

This week on the Control the Room Podcast, I’m excited to speak with Kai Haley. In addition to being a founder and leader of their Sprint Master Academy, Kai is Google’s Head of UX Methods and Processes. Through the development of design sprint and design thinking curriculum and training programs, she has created a community of expert facilitators at Google.

Listen in to learn more about Google Sprint Masters, the delicate balance between data and design, and how knowledge sharing creates resilient product teams.

Show Highlights

[5:27] The delicate balance between data and design

[11:08] The advent of the virtual facilitator

[21:35] Google Sprint Masters

[26:13] How knowledge sharing creates resilient product teams

[31:31] Embracing asynchronous meetings

Links | Resources

Kai on LinkedIn

About the Guest

Kai Haley, Head of UX Methods and Process at Google, works with teams to define product visions, drive successful user-centered products, and develop an innovation culture across all of Google. As Lead of the Sprint Master Academy, she also develops curriculum and training programs for Google’s expert team of facilitators.

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation agency that helps teams work better together with custom-designed meetings and workshops, both in-person and virtual. Our master facilitators offer trusted guidance and custom coaching to companies who want to transform ineffective meetings, reignite stalled projects, and cut through assumptions. Based in Austin, Voltage Control designs and leads public and private workshops that range from small meetings to large conference-style gatherings. 

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Intro: Welcome to the Control the Room Podcast, a series devoted to the exploration of meeting culture and uncovering cures for the common meeting. Some meetings have tight control, and others are loose. To control the room means achieving outcomes while striking a balance between imposing and removing structure, asserting and distributing power, leaning in and leaning out, all in the service of having a truly magical meeting.

Douglas: Today I’m with Kai Haley, head of UX Methods and Process for the UX community at Google. She co-founded and leads to Google Sprint Master Academy, where they train and mentor facilitators within Google. Welcome to the show, Kai.

Kai: Thank you for having me.

Douglas: Of course. So, Kai, let's share with the listeners a little bit of a backstory around how you became such a mover and shaker at Google.

Kai: I joined Google about nine years ago. And prior to that, I had been at Yahoo! for six years, working as a visual designer on the front page there. I started my design career right out of college by starting a design studio focused on complete communication and branding programs for startups in Silicon Valley. So I got my learning on the job initially, which was an amazing experience. Not always advised, though. And while I was at Yahoo!, I went back to school and got my masters in design at CCA, when I realized I really wanted to formulate my design process and practice. And at CCA, I was actually introduced to a designer and teacher from IDEO, and that's where I learned about UX methods and process and got very inspired by the IDEO method and what they were doing there. So I brought some of those back to Yahoo! but really found when I got to Google that there was a much more nurturing environment for design thinking and that kind of collaborative work.

Douglas: You know, it's so important to have that nurturing environment and the support to do the work. I was recently reading a lot of material around an FBI negotiator who was there in the early days, and there wasn't a lot of support, you know? So it was like kind of two jobs. One is learning the material and getting really good at the craft, but then also the diplomacy of trying to convince everyone around you that this new approach is much better.

Kai: Absolutely. And I'll be honest. When I first got to Google nine years ago, the UX community there was quite small. So they were just starting to develop the design-sprint way of working then. And a lot of the hard work that was done at that time was kind of building that culture or building the buy in of better ways to work together. So it wasn't necessarily a smooth and easy sailing process, but the environment at Google has always been receptive to experimentation and working on how to work better together.

Douglas: I think that's pretty clear from the Project Aristotle and all the research that goes into psychological safety and work rules and all those things definitely seems to be a culture of, how do we have better workplace culture and collaboration?

Kai: Absolutely. And that's actually one of the areas that I am focused on right now. In addition to, obviously, making better products, we always want to make more user-centered products, and that's one of our principles here. But my focus is on helping to make a great space for cross-functional collaboration, to really support the UX role and the UX discipline, both inside and outside of Google.

Douglas: So, I’m really curious. As an insider, you probably have some really interesting insight into this, but one thing I've noticed is this paradox between data-driven decisions and then kind of more qualitative type of decision making. And UX tends to kind of sit at the boundary of that, right? There's things that UX does that's quantitative and things that they do that’s qualitative. And Jake Knapp always talks about design sprint being so good at quick-and-dirty data before we're waiting around for perfect data. So I’m kind of curious what you found, having to use and leverage qualitative methods and approaches inside a company that's been known publicly to be so data focused and data driven.

Kai: You know, that's a really interesting question. Actually, there's a great video from my series Design Is […] called Design is [Data], if anyone is interested in deep diving into a case study on how design uses data to drive great design. When I was first—well, my second year at Google, I joined the search ads team, which is an incredibly data-driven team. And so that video outlines a project that we worked on, where we looked at how to leverage data to develop a design hypothesis and then use the data to push that design forward, meaning inform our decisions about design.

And working on Search at Google was incredibly transformative for me as a designer because it is so data driven and because it is so large, the user base is so broad, you really had to rely on the data to inform your intuition as a designer. So the qualitative aspect is really important, and we balance that at Google, where we do a lot of user interviews, more foundational research, where we try to understand how people think about things. And then we do experiment-focused either usability tests or we run an experiment on a specific portion of the traffic, like we would do a search, to take that hypothesis and see if it's working. So I always see it as like a balance of both and sometimes quite a delicate balance, especially if you are a UXer, which involves a really strong collaboration with your engineering team.

Douglas: Yeah. I remember reading this blog post years ago that I think came out of Google—yeah, it was Google Maps—and they were talking about drawing together. And so rather than the designers just sketching something, some brilliant solution, it’s like, well—and rather than just sitting down and talking—they're like, “Well, sketch out. Can you sketch with me while we're talking?” And they noticed this pattern that came out of a lot of their conversations, and they just took a step back and looked at all the drawings that their interviewees had sketched out while they were talking. They all had this dog-bone shape to them. So there was like this epiphany that, oh, wow, everyone has this kind of dog-bone kind of reality, where it's like you do a lot of stuff around your house and a lot of stuff around your work. And then there's this tiny little connection between the two. And then that epiphany that comes from some of the qualitative stuff could then be married with some data, even ML type stuff, that you feed in this insight into something that's more data driven then you could get some really powerful things out of it.

Kai: Yeah. And that's where the design sprint as a structured collaboration process is really helpful because you can bring the data into the UX conversation early, and you can bring UX and data into the product conversation, right, the product-strategy conversation. So that convergence in an efficient and fast is really where we see a lot of benefit.

And to the point you were making earlier about fast-and-dirty data, sometimes it's also making the time to engage with it, because we're always working against a deadline or moving very quickly. But if we don't stop and analyze what we see and what we know together with different perspectives, we miss a lot of opportunities.

Douglas: Absolutely. And I think that not only taking the time to smell the roses, but like you say, if it's this confluence of threads, because the product team's thinking about a certain set of concerns, the data team has concerns, the engineers have concerns, the designers have concerns, and that's the power of the cross-functional teams. But we don't always, even though we're working as cross-functional teams, we don't always take the time to stop and then kind of look around and ask some of these questions.

Kai: Yeah. And that's where that—I mean, I had a real aha moment in the sprint with one of our partners, where we had a data analyst in the sprint. And, you know, I asked this question, like, “Well, where is the drop off happening? You have this funnel, and people are coming in here. Can you go see what is the level of drop off?” And she pulled up the computer right then and there and said, “Wow, actually, we've got a 40 percent drop off at this point,” and that helped us to figure out what was actually going wrong with the design, and we could use that to help problem solve. So I was so excited by the data-analyst role after that. I was like, can we get a data analyst in our sprint?

Douglas: Isn’t it amazing when you get the teams together with different capabilities and then folks within different parts of the organization are going to ask totally different questions, but they might ask questions that they can't answer, because you've got the whole kind of, let's say, a gamut of capabilities brought together, amazing things can happen just in those moments.

And, you know, I've seen things within a design spirit that were orthogonal to the work we were doing. In fact, it just happened earlier this week. John's facilitating the design sprint, and I was dipping in here and there just to see how things were going. One of the times I was listening in, I heard them say, “I should totally use this in that community outreach project we're working on.” So it’s like they're making these discoveries that on the surface feel fairly trivial, but I'm convinced that without the design sprint, they would not have made those discoveries and that project would have suffered, or it would have been mediocre and not as good as it could have been.

Kai: Absolutely, yeah.

Douglas: I notice it because I love this stuff, but I think a lot of times folks have these tangential benefits that they don't even realize or definitely don't necessarily associate to the design sprint because it wasn't even the core product they were working on. There’s just these ancillary benefits.

Kai: Yeah. It’s interesting how we get so many ancillary benefits from design sprints, particularly also with relationship building, shared vocabulary building, shared knowledge. But now that we are not able to all actually be in a room together, at least at current, at present time, we don't automatically get those benefits. We actually have to think very intentionally about what do we need to get out of a session and design for it, whereas we used to get these added benefits without even necessarily looking for them. We would come in with, well, we need a product outcome, and then benefit from all these side conversations and the increased team building and all that stuff.

But now if we need to build relationships, so if we have a new team or we have new people that we're working with that we need to actually form stronger connections with, we have to intentionally design that because the virtual experience doesn't create it in the way that just being together does.

Douglas: 100 percent. And, you know, we've talked a lot about this notion that ultimately all of these virtual tools are in their infancy. It's sort of like the way e-commerce was in the early 2000s. We were still trying to figure it out, and what are the models that are going to stick? And Daniel talks a lot about, we've had thousands and thousands of years of learning how to meet in person, and we can lean on that knowledge and those customs. But virtually, we don't necessarily have the tooling and the skills where we can just walk into a room and it just naturally happens, like you're talking about. And so I agree it has to be highly designed in and really thoughtful.

And we talked a little bit about that in the preshow chat. It’s had an impact on the training programs. I guess I'm just curious what you found you now have to focus on to make sure that Sprint Masters is successful in this virtual world.

Kai: Well, we have to teach them to pay closer attention to that, whereas initially we would sort of take that for granted. You're going to get this by bringing everyone in a room together. The difficult conversations are going to happen. You just have to nudge a little bit to make space for it, to ask the right questions. Now you have to teach not just how to be a facilitator but how to be a very mindful facilitator that's aware of the science and psychology of the virtual space, which, as you said, is very nascent. So we are teaching something as we're learning it. We're modeling it and learning as we go, which is amazing. Also, I can't say that we've gotten it right right now. We're trying it out. But at the same time, we also need to teach people, Googlers, the methodology, so we have the foundational knowledge that they need to gain, which is, what is a design sprint? When do I use it? What do I use it for? How do I scope it properly? All the basics. And then, how do I be a good facilitator? And then, how do I be a good facilitator in a virtual space that I'm maybe not comfortable in and maybe I have to find new tools and techniques for how to build presence or even to consider, what do my facilitator values like and how did they play out here?

Douglas: Yeah. I love this notion of values-based facilitation. It can be really powerful because you can show up in a real, authentic way.

Kai: Yeah, absolutely. And everyone has to find their own way, and that takes time to build your practice and what you feel comfortable with, your authentic self.

Douglas: Absolutely. I think there's a reason that the notion of having a practice is to label it with the word practice because it takes practice. You know, we can't just read a book and expect to be a great facilitator. We have to try things on for size and see what doesn't fit and actually go do the work. We're going to have to be willing to stumble a few times, pick ourselves up, and learn, okay, that didn't feel very authentic. Let me try something different.

Kai: Yeah, it's amazing. And the different ways that people learn is a thing that I have to always remind myself of, because how I learn is not the same way as how other people learn. So we're trying to make space for sort of a diversity of approaches.

Douglas: Yeah. I think as much as we can be multi-sensory as possible to where no matter where someone's at at any particular time, they relate to what we're trying to convey. I think that's pretty huge. And the training, you talked about connection, being able to observe people and draw them in. Have you found any good tactics or are there things you're recommending to your Sprint Masters around how to think about that in the virtual space or what the tools can allow us?

Kai: Yeah, I think there's a lot of great resources out there, but one of the things that we, just at a basic level, are trying to teach our facilitators is this idea of creating. I mean, we talk about creating and holding space in the physical space, but creating and holding the virtual space and making not just room for voices, but giving each person the opportunity to speak and be present. And we have such limited time, so it can be really hard to balance that. And I think that's really forefront on my mind right now because the getting the product outcomes and asking the strategic questions and pushing the thinking, we all feel relatively comfortable with that. But to do it in a way where you create and hold this space, where people feel safe to be creative, they feel connected, like you’re saying, it really involves a delicate balance of speaking, being present, being called on, and a combination of, I hate to use the word icebreaker, but it's like activities that can be used to help us get to know each other better.

Douglas: Yeah, you know, it's funny. Icebreaker. Some folks dislike the term. And my perspective is that those are typically things that people throw around without much intention. Being true to what you were saying earlier, the virtual space requires even more intention than the physical space. And when we put those things in, we should be careful about what we're trying to accomplish and just be honest about it and communicate it so that it's well known.

Kai: Yeah. It's a great point about, I think especially in my early days of being a facilitator, I didn't have as much clarity when to use something like an icebreaker or an energizer or a “pair people up and talk about this thing” kind of activity and building that sort of the intuition of knowing, what do you need to do during, at what point throughout the sprint? When do you need to give people quiet moments to reflect? When do you need to build energy and get them feeling inspired and feeling seen or heard? Those are really nuanced things, and that's why I say I hate to use the word icebreaker because an icebreaker is something that you can just be like, “Oh, yeah, everyone stand up and organize yourself like a fruit.” Sort by size and color or flavor. And that's fun, and it builds energy in a room, but it's not the same in virtual. So you have to pick very carefully.

Douglas: Absolutely. Even turn taking can be challenging in the virtual space. It's like in the physical space, you can say, “Okay, let's just go in a circle.” In the virtual space, we have to think about new paradigms and what's our cadence and what are our signals.

Kai: Yeah. And it can be awkward and take extra time. And I'm just thinking, “Normally, this would take five minutes.”

Douglas: It's amazing because some things move a lot faster. You know, if we’re voting inside of MURAL or some other tool, it can go quite fast. And so we might have to intentionally slow it down so that it becomes more thoughtful.

Kai: Yeah, absolutely.

Douglas: You know, I think you guys share something in common with us in the sense that you tend to sometimes, or even often, have larger workshops, whereas a classic design sprint’s seven people. We've discussed in the past how we've both had workshops that are quite more numerous than that. And I'm curious what sorts of things that you're doing in the virtual space to accommodate for larger audiences.

Kai: Yeah. It's hard. I'll just acknowledge that because we used to do 20-, 30-person sprints. And also, when it comes to training, I used to—I’d be like, “Sure, I could train 60 people. No problem,” by myself in a room. But in the virtual space, because of the breakouts and it, just, it's different, so I have not run as many large sprints, though I did do a 45-person one two weeks ago. But what we do is we really rely heavily on breaking out into groups of five with facilitators within it. So it's just the scaled model. I just lean on my facilitator's more, and we'll make sure that each team has a POC or a lead of some kind.

I think it's possible—a lot of our Sprint Masters right now are just saying don’t do it, which I understand that. And I think we used to say don't do virtual either, because it's just too complicated. So I think eventually we will find ways. And I really appreciate some of the tips and tricks that I learned from your large-virtual-meetings workshop. Seeing how you manage a group of that size I think is really helpful because you do want to approach it really differently. You're not going to do the around-the-room “show me that special item off your desk and tell me the history” when you've got 45 people. So you are approaching it from a different perspective, but it can be scaled.

Douglas: Absolutely. So coming back to the Sprint Master training, I’m curious. Ultimately, Google is supporting this initiative, so there's clearly an identified business value. For the business folks that are listening, what's the real purpose behind—like, why spend the time to train all these folks? What does that really open up for Google?

Kai: Well, it enables us to work more effectively cross functionally, and I think I've—I don’t know how many times I've said the word cross-functional already. You can keep count—but there is so much value we all know that comes from that. And as a larger company, it's not a standard way of working. I think smaller startups will in general work more easily more cross functionally. But when you're in a larger organization with multiple product areas, working across products and working across end product and UX, more marketing, it's really critical to the success of the company. It's critical to understanding the business so that everybody who is working on product teams has that viewpoint across the company to working across those silos.

As the company grows, we need more and more people to do that work, to help with that work, and that's where the Google Spirit Masters come in. We train people across all the PAs, primarily in the UX discipline, but we do folks in some other roles as well, provide the training to them. And ultimately, they're not just running design sprints for their product area. So if you’re a Sprint Master on Photos, you might raise your hand to go run a design sprint for Maps or for Cloud. And that also creates cross pollination of ideas and allows you to leverage solutions that have worked in one part of the company in other parts. So there's a lot of value there.

It allows us to work, we say, to accelerate our collaboration, accelerate our innovation, because it helps us to work faster as well. And it's not just faster, but it's more effectively as a group because teamwork is always harder than individual work.

Douglas: I guess one thing that I always loved to visualize the positive impacts is this notion of kind of flipping around your discovery process, because so often integrations start to happen later in the cycle. Even if we're doing continuous integration and all these good things, it's like if we’re not doing a lot of this upfront discovery work together, then we discover those kind of break points later. And anyone in this, doing this work at all, knows that the later the discoveries happen, the more expensive they are to address. And sometimes it's too late because it's not going to make or break the project, but it would have created a little extra delight for the user, and it would have been cheap to do if we would've known about it early. But now it's too late.

Kai: Yeah, absolutely. And users don't care that the Photos team is different than the Maps team, you know? Users don't care that Search is a whole other team. Those product lines are not valuable to them. They pop back and forth across multiple suite of products, and we want that to be seamless for them. We want it to be the best experience it can. And when they're owned by different teams, that requires a lot of coordination.

Douglas: Yeah. It reminds me of Conway's Law. I don’t know if you’ve run across this, but most people that have actually written software have seen it numerous times. It's basically the statement that says that any piece of software is going to resemble the structure of the organization that wrote that software. And so what you're describing is exactly the manifestation of Conway’s Law, right? You've got these teams that are working on different portions, and at one level you could say they're working on different applications. But when, to your point, one of the user’s using it, they're using the system, not an application. And so they're kind of moving fluidly around that. And how cohesive it is is going to depend on how much you can bridge those boundaries of the organization structure.

Kai: Yeah. And that's, in some ways, what the Sprint Masters are an antidote to at times, right?

Douglas: That's amazing.

Kai: Yeah.

Douglas: So you talked a little bit in the preshow chat about this notion of resilient product teams and how the sprint can help with that process. So I’m curious. I think our listeners would enjoy hearing a little bit about that because I think it's fascinating.

Kai: Yeah. Actually, when I think about the resilience on my side, it's maybe less about the sprint process itself and more about how you build a self-sustaining community. And that resilience comes from operating as, like, a learning organization, which means taking the time to reflect on what's working and what's not working, and then focusing on improving the process as you go. You know, that's very standard when you think about a learning organization.

But the example that we recently had was as we had to pivot to moving all of our sprints to virtual and helping 400 Sprint Masters build confidence in the virtual world, also not being experts ourselves, we really turned to this group to build a platform where we could learn from each other. And that's where I see a lot of resilience happening, when you have a system in place for people to solve together the challenges or the things that they're facing, which means it's not me coming in and saying, “I know the answer here, and I'm going to teach all of you how to do this,” but people joining forces and saying, “I'm trying this thing over here. I’ve got an experiment running. I'm going to feed it back in.” And my team being that central hub that creates a space for that amplification and knowledge sharing so that we can rapidly adapt and build new ways of thinking. And that sort of comes from how you approach that evolution, how you approach a learning organization.

Douglas: Wow, yeah. I love this concept of the learning organization and this group that can facilitate and be a conduit for these learnings, to kind of come and be dispersed throughout the other teams and whatnot, I think that's a fantastic concept. And we talked a little bit also about embracing the experimentation mindset. And I've been referring to this as the sprint mindset in the context of design sprints and how it's so critical for folks to not only see the benefit. You know, we talked about the direct benefits of how it's moving your project forward and getting people aligned. And then also the ancillary benefits of, like, these weird connections or these epiphanies you have that influence other projects. Then, if you can leave that workshop and have these mindsets permeate all the work you do, then it has this kind of like compounding effect throughout the organization.

Kai: Yeah, absolutely. And it's something I've been thinking about a lot recently, and I think you know because I reached out to you for more resources, because I think this is something that it's not as easy as it sounds. You're like, “Yeah, just design and experiment and learn from it.” There’s a way in which oftentimes we will do things and we haven't fully articulated what it is that we want to learn from it. And I think that is one of the benefits or it's sort of the strength of the sprint process, where you go in and say, “What do we know, what do we don't know, and what do we want to know?” And a lot of times, people will think that they're experimenting because they're being scrappy and moving fast, but they're not learning as they go. And that's, like, the fundamental benefit comes when you stop and reflect and learn and improve. So I think it's incredibly valuable for any organization to look at how do we embrace experimentation and really figure out how to bake it into the way that you work.

Douglas: Yeah. I love that. We picked up this concept from the military, which is, you know, people always talk about lessons learned, but basically their stance on this is, like, people use the term lessons learned inappropriately. And most of the time, what they're talking about are lessons identified. And we haven't really learned the lesson until we've actually addressed it and done something about it. So we can identify it all the time, but if we don't actually make the change, we haven't actually done anything about it. We haven't addressed it. We're just located a problem.

Kai: Yeah. And that happens a lot. We're like, “There's a problem. There's a problem.” You move on to the next thing, and then you're like, okay. It's human nature, too, you know?

Douglas: Absolutely. And, you know, I think that's one of the beautiful things about facilitation and a lot of these methods is they're designed with human nature in mind and how we can take advantage of the good parts and use them against some of the things that are not so great about human nature.

Kai: Yeah, absolutely. I spend a lot of time saying, you know, “I'm trying to combat design fixation here. Don't spend too much time on that sketch. I don't want you to get too attached to that idea.”

Douglas: Yeah. I ran into a term recently called street psychologist, which I thought was pretty incredible. And I think essentially to be a great facilitator is you have to kind of have to be a street psychologist.

Kai: Kind of like an armchair—

Douglas: Yeah, exactly.

Kai: —an armchair psychologist, but we’re doing it from the street. I like it.

Douglas: I don’t know just enough to understand what we're dealing with.

Kai: Absolutely.

Douglas: So I'm curious. If you could change anything about most meetings, what would it be?

Kai: Well, that's a very broad question because I have all kinds of different meetings. A lot of my meetings are not bad currently. But I would say I find really, really large, kind of all handsy-type meetings to be ones that I often wonder why we do them. So I think there is a way in which sometimes we have meetings that don't really need to be in person or synchronous, as we say. And I think we could be more creative about how we deliver content asynchronously to people and that when we do bring people together, we design for people being together as opposed to a one-way delivery of content, because I often feel like now, even more than ever, a one-way delivery of content is consumed one way. So I would say really embracing when things are bi-directional or multidirectional and designing for that to make the most use of people's time when they're all actually being asked to be together at the same time.

Douglas: Absolutely. We often talk about, is a meeting purely informative, and if so, there's probably better vehicles than bringing everyone together unless we really want to get people's reactions. But if we're truly wanting to get everyone's reactions, like you say, it needs to be designed in a bi-directional way.

Kai: Absolutely.

Douglas: Excellent.

Well, Kai. It's been a pleasure chatting with you today. And I'm sure people are curious how they might be able to follow your work or get in touch or just kind of see more about what you are working on. How can they find you?

Kai: You can always find me on Twitter, @kaihaley, and LinkedIn. And then, of course, the designsprintkit.withgoogle.com is a great site where I post case studies and content for folks, if anyone’s interested more in our design-sprint information.

Douglas: Excellent. Thank you so much, Kai.

Kai: Thank you so much for having me. It was such a pleasure.

Outro: Thanks for joining me for another episode of Control the Room. Don't forget to subscribe to receive updates when new episodes are released. If you want more, head over to our blog, where I post weekly articles and resources about working b

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“You know, there are so many different forms of discrimination and prejudice. But I thought, when you write a book about leadership, what is there that hasn't been written yet? And so for me, leadership is about perspective. Finding different ways of looking at things to solve problems. To be creative and to innovate. We need to look at problems from different perspectives. So we don't ask the right question, do we get to the right solution? And so that's some work that Thomas Wedell-Wedellsborg did in his book, What's Your Problem? And I started thinking about, but how do we apply this to discrimination? Are we asking the right questions?” -Eksteen de Waal

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Eksteen de Waal about leadership and helping people flourish.  He shares how a traumatic childhood event influenced his career.  Later, Eksteen explores topics like Psychological Safety, culture, and fairness.  We then discuss employee needs in and out of the office.   Listen in to learn all about developing exponential cultures.

Have you ever wondered what it means to be a professional conversation designer? Listen as your host Douglas Ferguson and his guest Daniel Stillman, the founder of the Conversation Factory and a master facilitator, discuss what it means to be a conversation designer and much more in this episode of the Control Room Podcast.

Daniel shares how he got started as a conversation designer and why he believes that everything is an active conversation. He speaks about what he would change about meetings and why having a narrative with an opening, exploration, and closing is essential in a productive conversation.

Listen as Douglas and Daniel discuss impromptu networking, the best questions to ask, and the definition of appreciative inquiry. They also talk about meeting mantras and why they are so important. Daniel shares his take on why using sticky notes is so effective in the ideation process and how to translate the practice to the virtual landscape.

Daniel also explains how to host a virtual rock, paper, scissors tournament; it's both crazy and fun. Order a copy of Daniel’s book Good Talk, How to Design Conversations that Matter', available now.

Show Highlights

[00:50] Welcome.
[01:02] Daniel's journey as a conversation designer.
[04:01] Teaching design thinking to non-designers.
[04:48] Everything is a conversation.
[07:43] Providing an interface for an important idea for a product.
[08:34] One thing Daniel would change when it comes to having meetings.
[11:06] A narrative is crucial in conversations–opening, exploring, and closing.
[13:19] Closing out daily meetings with precision.
[16:14] The power of impromptu networking to make meetings better.
[19:23] Impromptu networking is a great way to model the participation that you expect.
[20:34] Daniel's favorite questions to ask.
[22:15] Appreciative inquiry, defined.
[24:23] The evolution and significance of Daniel's mantra.
[26:27] Sticky note ideation heightens focus on specific concepts.
[29:03] Reading the room virtually.
[31:16] Virtual rock, paper, scissors tournament.
[34:47] Ways to signal during virtual group gatherings.
[35:48] Distributive facilitation and the future of work.
[39:23] Thank you.
[41:02] Waiting forever is not a good business plan for your company or your wedding.
[43:24] Do large virtual meetings need comedians to keep people interested?
[44:57] Daniel's book.
[47:23] It has been a pleasure.
[47:36] Subscribe.

Links | Resources

Daniel Stillman
Good Talk: How to Design Conversations That Matter
LinkedIn | Twitter | YouTube

About the Guest

Daniel Stillman designs conversations for a living and insists that you actually do that too. As an independent design facilitator, he works with clients and organizations of all shapes and sizes (From Google to Visa, to name a few) to help them frame and sustain productive and collaborative conversations, deepen their facilitation skills, and coach them through the innovation process. His first book, The 30 Second Elephant and the Paper Airplane Experiment is about origami and teams and yes, it’s as strange as it sounds. He hosts The Conversation Factory podcast where he interviews leaders, changemakers, and innovators on how they design the conversations in their work and lives.

Full Transcript

Intro: Welcome to the Control the Room Podcast, a series devoted to the exploration of meeting culture and uncovering cures for the common meeting. Some meetings have tight control, and others are loose. To control the room means achieving outcomes while striking a balance between imposing and removing structure, asserting and distributing power, leaning in and leaning out, all in the service of having a truly magical meeting.

Douglas: Today on Control the Room Podcast, I have Daniel Stillman. Daniel Stillman is a conversation designer, and insists that you're one, too. He is the founder of the Conversation Factory and a master facilitator. Welcome to the podcast, Daniel.

Daniel: Douglas, it’s a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me on.

Douglas: Of course. So, Daniel, I’d love to just have the listeners just hear a little bit about how you got started.

Daniel: So, this is funny because I was thinking about this during our pre-conversation. You and I have known each other for a while, but there's still stuff we don't know about each other. This came up when we were having a conversation last week, where you're like, “I don't know the story behind that thing. You just assume I know that because I've known you for a couple of years,” stuff I've just never talked about. And so you've heard little snippets. So it's just kind of funny because we're friends, and now I'm telling you my story. I don’t know. Just pulling out for a second on the meta-ness of it all.

Douglas: Yeah. And as you know, conversations can get weird.

Daniel: Yeah, they sure can. So, wait. What was the question again? How did I—what's my origin story?

Douglas: That’s right.

Daniel: Was there any radioactive spiders involved in how I got my superpowers? I feel like I found my way into conversation design through design. I remember actually seeing an ad in the New York Times back when people found jobs in the New York Times’ job-wanted section. Like, that was a thing. And I remember seeing this job for an exhibit designer, and I was like, this is so cool, because I had a background in science. I had studied physics in undergrad. And this idea of designing science exhibits—I loved going to museums when I was a kid. I grew up in the Upper West Side of Manhattan. I went to the Museum of Natural History as a kid often. That's where they would just send us on a rainy day. Like, just go there.

And this idea of being able to walk into a space and automatically learn just by being immersed in a space, just like, I don’t know. It kind of tickled me. And I wound up going to design school because they had a studio in science-exhibit design. And so I was super-duper excited to learn how to become a designer and how to design spaces for education.

But while I was in design school, what I really learned was human-centered design. This idea that, wow, you can just go out into the world and talk to some people and learn about their problems, and then, make some stuff for them that they like, and then find out if they like it, and then, try it out again, make some test iterations. This was, like, 2005, 2006. The idea of human-centered design and design thinking we're really, I mean, nascent in design at the time. Pratt, where I went to school, was still very much form. We studied negative space and curves for entire semester-long classes. And so this idea of designing for people and designing for needs is what really inspired me.

But when I got out of school and I started working in a design studio, what I realized was that I actually had to start designing—I didn't know at the time—but I was designing conversations: stakeholder-engagement workshops to try to pull intelligence out of various stakeholders to understand user needs. And so workshop design became a real passion for me. And so that's kind of how I got to where I am today was I realized that design thinking and teaching design thinking to non-designers was something that was really important. I had this fantasy. I was like, if we all knew the rules to the same game, we could play the game. Let's make something that matters together, right? And that to me are like—those are the rules of design thinking. Hey, let's empathize and understand and define and deliver. That's what I do now is I try to inspire people to be intentional about how they create.

Douglas: That’s amazing. So, thinking back to when you were just post school and you were starting to have some of those early realizations that everything was a conversation, can you take us to that moment? And what was it that really clicked for you? How did that make you feel, or what was surfacing? Was there something that wasn't quite serving you at the time and you realized there needed to be more, or was it just an observation?

Daniel: Actually, I can—I really remember the moment. I went to an event that my friend Jooyoung Oh was running. She was a design researcher at the time, and for many years she worked at Ziba. And at the time—I can’t remember what she was doing—but she did this workshop where she had us do collages of words and pictures that she had printed out on stickers. And we did this visual collage of “my ideal experience for blank is…,” and “my ideal experience for blank is not…” So she gave us these sheets of stickers with words and pictures on them. The pictures were evocative, emotional, suggestive. And we made these collages, and they became a focal point for a dialog. And I remember doing this and I was like, “Oh, my god, this is amazing.” And it seemed so simple.

But we had this big meeting coming up with some stakeholders in the consultancy I was working on, and we were doing this big kickoff for this bug-repellent product, which I probably shouldn't talk about. And I said to my boss, he’s like, “We really need to understand all these different stakeholders and what they really think this thing should be.” And I was like, “Oh, my god, I've got a thing for that.” The language I would use now is “I have a design for that conversation.” I explained it to him a little bit, and he squinted his eyes, and he's like, “Okay.” And I'm like, “Dude, you got to trust me on this. I can land this plane. It’s going to get us good information.”

And I remember going into that meeting, and we did this exercise. I remember—I literally remember printing out these sheets of these words and these stickers and these images. And one member of the stakeholder team was an engineer, and the other was a marketer. And there was a word that was placed on the is versus the isn't, in either case. The engineer did not want the experience of this chemical bug-repellent product to be magical, and the marketer thought that the experience should be magical. And so what we had was this conversation about magical and what it meant for something to be magical, and why the engineer didn't want it to be magical and why the marketer did want it to be magical.

Magical to the marketer meant effortless, easy, efficacious. Boom, done—bugs are gone. And to the engineer, he's like, “If it's magical, then that means that people don't trust it. If it's magical, people don't understand why it works. If it's magical, people can't understand that it's safe and scientific.”

And so just from that collaging effort, which some people would deride as goofy, mood boarding, or whatever, it provided us with an opportunity to dive into this really important conversation, which is, What do we want this thing to be, and what do we want our customers to think about it?

And what we were doing was providing an interface for the conversation. If we just said, ”Hey, what do you guys want this to be?” it would have seemed like, I don’t know, one, we didn't know our stuff. But by giving them an activity to do, it pulled ideas out of their heads and put them on the wall and allowed us to unpack a really, really important idea for the project. What is magical?

Douglas: That's amazing. I think that is a challenge that I see in so many meetings, where two people are using two different words to mean two different things, or they're using the same word to mean different things. And that's a real problem. And often it is not surfaced, and I think that's where a lot of these visual-thinking tools can really surface some of those things and then gives us an opportunity to discuss it. Can shape the narrative.

And when I asked you about one thing that you could change about meetings, you talked about this need to have a narrative for our meetings. And just “we're having a meeting” is a flat story, and you're looking for something more dynamic. So tell us a little more about that.

Daniel: Well, you were in the room when our friend Allan Chochinov, at the first masterclass, Facilitation Masterclass, you came to in New York, when Allan talked about, what was it, like, a text expander that one of his students made? Allan was an old professor of mine at Pratt. Now he runs the Products of Design program at SVA. And one of his students wrote a text expander so that whenever you write meeting, it erases it. You literally can't write the word meeting, because a meeting is a meaningless word. A meeting can mean so many different things that it means nothing. What are we doing at that meeting? Are we meeting to sing a song together? Are we going caroling. Let's meet to go caroling. Oh, let's meet to align on a decision. Let's meet to figure out what our options are. Let's meet to plan the holiday party. It doesn't mean anything.

And so Allan's idea was if you don't have a prototype, you shouldn't have a meeting. If you don't have an object or an interface or a list, a thing to start the conversation off with, you shouldn't have that meeting. And so I think the story of “let's have a meeting” is just, it's a flat story, but it's also just a super-incomplete story. “Let's meet in order to blank, and let's talk about these three things, and I think that we should have process x, y,  and z  to discuss about them. Here's who can make the final decision. I'm just going to be gathering your inputs.” “Oh, okay, cool. I don't want to come to that meeting if I can't make the final decision.”

Oh, interesting. Now we have tension and a cliffhanger for how this story is going to end. If you told people the real story of your meeting, most people might not even come to those meetings, which people don't like. “Well, what if I made my meetings optional? People might not come.” And I'm like, “Yeah, well, make your meetings better, make them matter, talk about something that people really care about.”

Douglas: That’s amazing. Also, I think the super power of that is when you realize that there's actually multiple narratives, multiple tracks, and that you might need to divide your audience. If someone's focused more strategically and someone else more tactical, being able to split those things rather than jamming everyone together into the same conversation and creating so much discord.

Daniel: Yeah. Everybody’s sitting around a table and talking over each other. And yeah, so this is why narrative is important in conversations, at least this idea of opening, exploring, and closing.

Years after people come to my Facilitation workshops, the one thing people remember, they forget most things, but the one thing they remember is this idea of opening, exploring, and closing, and having time to both open or diverge and close and converge and making some time in the middle for something interesting to emerge. And I absorbed that idea from Dave Gray's coauthored book, Gamestorming, just the importance of having those three modes of thinking. And I think having that baked into the process and communicating that to people, it just means that we expect that something interesting and surprising will happen. Otherwise, just make a video. Just make a video of what you've decided and just tell everybody.

Douglas: It’s fascinating because Dave Gray talks about the explorer section also being referred to as the groan zone because no one typically enjoys it. But the funny thing is most people, their meetings just consist of explorer. Let's just start exploring when we walk in the door, and then we explore until we have to walk out of the door. And that's really unfortunate if you don't give people that time, that boot-up time.

I just recently read a book on facilitation that was talking about—they were talking about it as clearing, which I thought was a really fascinating way to think about an opener, is allowing people to clear themselves and get ready for the meeting to start.

Daniel: Well, you’re basically closing before you can open. As we all know, if you don't close, you can't open the next—like, if you don't—and I'm sure you've seen this in sprints, right? If people don't close on day one, mapping the problem, it's really hard to open on day two, finding a target. And if you don't close on a target, it makes drawing a set of solutions really, really super hard. And if you refuse to close on a smaller number of prototypes, it means that your last day of the sprint’s going to be a bear because you test everything.

Douglas: Yeah. And we've often talked about how critical closing is in the kind of more macro sense as well, because if you aren’t closing out your everyday meetings with precision, then it's really difficult to align on anything.

The real, I think pathological cases, when you walk out thinking you're aligned, but you're not, and so everyone else is telling a different narrative. And you were all in the same meeting, so it should sound like it.

Daniel: The cost is even higher than that, Douglas, because internally—I think one of the reasons why people pay an external facilitator, one reason why people hire me and hire you, is to create urgency. “Douglas is here. We’ve paid him. It’s expensive. Everyone stop what you’re doing. We have to focus now.” When people have an internal meeting, their urgency isn’t there. There’s no burning platform, like Kotter talks about. There’s no urgency. And so if you don’t close, you push off decisions.

And work is a gas. A gas at standard pressure and temperature expands to fill the space available to it. So time creates pressure, and a sprint or a workshop reduces the volume of space we have to it. And if we don't cap things off or tie them off and say that this is the decision we're going to have, and now we're going to move on to the next phase, it's very idealistic to say these things. It is really hard to do, right? It's really hard to say, okay, well, let's just try this thing, or let's move on to the next thing, even though we don't feel we're ready. I hate doing it. I still tell my clients to do it because it's hard. I know it's important to do, and I struggle with it myself. But if we don't do that, what happens is we wind up working nights and weekends. That's the cost—not seeing our families. If we can close in the time that we have proposed, then we can have the rest of our lives back.

Douglas: Yeah, well, it's interesting. You talked about it being hard, but the answer really is to disagree and commit. If we can come together and not rely on unanimity, this desire to have everyone agree, then we can get to a point where there is a decision, we're all going to support it, and we're going to see what comes out. And I think the thing that I try to coach people on is there’re one-way doors and two-way doors. So if it's a reversible decision, then why are we working weekends to get this?

Daniel: Right. Having kids is not the same thing as, where should we go for vacation? Where you go to vacation is still a reversible because you've gone and you've spent that money; you've gone on that vacation. But you can always just leave early. You know, you can cancel a vacation halfway through. You're like, “I hate it here. Let's go someplace else.” But it is very hard to cancel, not to get into any politics, but once you've got the kid, it's really hard to cancel it.

Douglas: That's right.

Daniel: Still not impossible. All my friends who are adopted, it's a thing. But it creates repercussions.

Douglas: Let’s shift gear a little bit here and talk about impromptu networking. It is a really powerful way to make meetings better. And why is that?

Daniel: Oh, right, right, right. This was my—actually, it’s funny. I was only a light dabbler in liberating structures before I worked with you. I remember looking at the website, and I know many people have had this experience of, this is a crazy place on the Internet. You get to the website, and you’re like, wow, there’s a lot of interesting stuff here, but this looks like the ravings of a madman. And having met Keith, I still actually have that same opinion. It is definitely the ravings of a madman.

And I had done things like that before. I had started most of my workshops in my early days with “Grab someone and tell them a story, and then, listen to their story,” because creating energy in a workshop or a meeting is a hard job, and it shouldn't be the job, the sole job, the sole responsibility of the facilitator. As I like to say, it's everybody's problem we're here to solve. It's just not my problem, presumably. If people are here, they're buying into the problem. So starting with a conversation or a story or a reflection about an important component of it is really, really great. Plus, conversations are complex, and so the fewer number of people in the conversation, the less complex it can feel. And so if you've got a group of five or ten or fifteen, pairing up with somebody just immediately simplifies the conversation and makes it more intimate.

I was talking with somebody today about this. He used to be a teacher. And this “think, pair, share,” which I thought I invented because it rhymes, and I thought I was clever, this is baked into Harvard University’s education best practices initiative. And every teacher already knows this. Think to grab a partner and talk to them about blank. It's just such an easy reflex. But I see so many facilitators who try to wrangle a group as a large mass of people, and I just don't think it works. You have to be—it takes a lot of strength.

This is a total side note, but I love telling this story. Have you seen The Princess Bride movie?

Douglas: Mm-hmm.

Daniel: Yeah. There's the scene where Fezzik and the Man in Black are fighting as Vizzini is escaping with Buttercup. And they've just climbed up the wall, the Cliffs of Insanity, and they're about to face off. And spoiler alert—Fezzik loses. And he realizes halfway through the fight why he's having such a hard time. He's like, “I haven't done one-to-one combat in so long. I'm used to fighting groups of people. You have to use different techniques.”

And I think of impromptu networking as a really, really great group-fighting technique, because it doesn't matter if you've got two people or ten people or a hundred people, you say, “Okay, everybody grab a partner and have a quick conversation about blank.” And then the room is filled with energy that you did not have to create. People are connecting to other people, they're learning from each other, and then it's up to you to do the next thing, which is take that energy and funnel it, direct it, focus it towards the next activity, get people to do something with that inspiration and that information and that connection that they've gotten from other people at the moment.

Douglas: Yeah. And we often talk about modeling behavior. And I think impromptu networking is a great way to model the participation that we expect. So we get them at ease with participating and gaining that human connection that they so need. And especially in the virtual world, it's really critical to start setting some of those expectations, because people aren't used to doing it when they're tuning in the virtual webinars and stuff.

Daniel: Oh, my god, I know. I did that with a workshop, super-duper early in the meeting. And one of the reasons why I like to do it early is this idea of antifragile openings. If somebody shows up five or ten or fifteen minutes late, they can still float in, weave in to the second or third pairing. And this woman was like, “I knew you would do breakout rooms. I didn't think it would happen so soon.” I'm like, “Yeah, if you show up 20 minutes late to this workshop, you're going to miss something, but you're not going to miss everything. You're still going to be able to get some…” She was able to come into the third pairing in impromptu networking.

Douglas: For sure. And impromptu networking only works if you have a good invitation, and your prompt has to be tight. This means that you have to have a good question. So Daniel, what are your favorite questions?

Daniel: Oh, man. That's my favorite question. That’s definitely my favorite question. I actually asked that of somebody on a recent podcast episode that I was hosting, on my Conversation Factory podcast. I interviewed Cameron Yarbrough, who has a scaled coaching platform called Torch.io. And his favorite question to ask people is, what are your blind spots? And boy, oh boy, that's a really—I mean, technically an impossible question to answer yourself, but it's a really, really interesting one. He described it as a cone, like a Zen question that is unanswerable but interesting. And so good questions can be like that.

I think the other easy, easy question is, tell me a story about blank. Just tell me a story when you last blank, or tell me a story about how you have blanked. Or just go straight to story because stories evoke emotions and empathy. So don't just say, “Tell me a story of when you were at your best.” It's a hard question to answer still, but it's a really interesting one, and it evokes interesting reactions for people. And that's why I think focusing on positivity over negativity is always hard.

Douglas: Absolutely. That was the thing I was going to bring up next, actually, was the fact that I'm a huge fan of, if your questions can be appreciative or express gratitude, that can be really amazing. And if you can make people become introspective. So think about a time when you maybe received—what's the best compliment you've ever received? So lovely.

Daniel: Yeah. And just to double stitch on that, by the way, not everybody knows what appreciative inquiry is. And it's, when you look at it, if you come from design thinking or the sprint world, you look at appreciative inquiry, and you're like, it can be weird, but you're like, wait, how is this different than design thinking? And the difference is is that you only focus on the positive. And there's this idea that you can, in fact, heal a system and a person by looking at only the positives.

And in my book, I actually, I found a story. I couldn't find the truth of it. I couldn't find a direct quote, but people have talked about it, this idea that—I forget the name of the Dallas Cowboys coach—but at one point during a slump, he was like, we are only going to show you your best plays. You know, they tape the plays, and they go back, and they review things. They’re like, look, we are going to review and analyze your best plays only.

And it kind of flips things on its head because a lot of designers and a lot of innovators think like, oh, we're problem solving. And so if I'm problem-solving, I have to look at what's broken, and then I have to fix it. But with appreciative inquiry, there's this radical idea that I can find what's working and ask how I can magnify it and expand it.

Douglas: Yeah. there's an amazing book called Super Human, and it goes into a lot of super athletes that are doing just amazing things, like free scaling mountains, and the winged airmen—the Red Bull team that just jumps off of buildings and does insane things.

Daniel: Base jumpers.

Douglas: Exactly. And one of the things that they discovered—and this is a phenomenon in this world—which is there is something that humans have not been able to do for decades. And the first time one human does it, like 10, 15 other humans would do it a day later, because they've shown that it's possible. It just opens up the world of, well, now I can just go to do that thing that I know—I've seen them do it. Now I can do it.

Daniel: Yeah. Wow. I love that. That's really, really awesome.

Douglas: And so this is similar to your mantra, Daniel: if you don't write it down, it didn't happen. So we need to be able to see it to prove it, and then we can we can double stitch on it. And we have a mantra that's similar: always capture room intelligence. So why is this so important?

Daniel: Well, I, first, have to honor my friend Miles Begin, who gave me that mantra years ago, and that was when I first started teaching design thinking to non-designers. That's the whole point is if it's not on a sticky note and it's not on the wall, we can't talk about it. And having that mantra’s really helpful, especially if you have over-talkers in the room, and it's also really helpful if you have “under-talkers” in the room. If somebody’s really, really overexplaining an idea, you can say, “Hey, can you fit that on one sticky note and get it up on the wall? That is truly, truly awesome. That'll be great.”

But we used to tell a story about—have you ever watched Mad Men?

Douglas: Of course.

Daniel: Yeah. So there's an amazing Mad Men episode where—I forget the team. It's, like, Peggy and a couple of the other people stay up all night to bang out some ideas for something. They're drinking, and they're smoking. And they finally have this amazing insight, and they're like, “Wow, that is such a great idea!” And then they go to sleep because they're satisfied. Spoiler alert—they didn't write their idea down. And so the next day, when Don Draper comes in, and Don’s like, “Okay, what’d you jerks come up with?” And they're like, “Oh, my god, we've got this great idea,” and they're looking around their desks, and they're like,  Wait a minute. What was it?” And their brains are just this empty vacuum of space. And they're like, “Oh, my god, we didn't write it down.” And they're just crestfallen. And Don's like, “I understand. That happens sometimes.” It’s one of the few moments when Don decides to be really, really human. Like, he gets it. You didn't write down the idea, and it disappeared.

And so I found an old PowerPoint of mine from, like, one of the first design-thinking workshops I ever taught. And there is a scene—we found a screenshot of Don Draper and some other people, just to teach people this idea of, if you don't write down your ideas, they will disappear into the air. And this is long before I knew that conversations had interfaces and that if you use a durable interface for your conversations, not surprisingly, you can have a more-sustained conversation about it. That’s why when you get it on the wall, we can talk about it. If it's not on the wall, I'm just interpreting what I heard, and it can disappear in the air.

So one of the great things about design-thinking workshops is that we create this paper trail of insights and agreements when we go from phase to phase. And if you don't do that, we're having a much floofier conversation. So it's really, really important to get things down.

And if we're talking about virtual, it's actually really problematic. I mean, I love MURAL, but MURAL sticky notes are not the same thing as real sticky notes, because on a real sticky note, there's a limit to how much information I can put on the sticky note. With MURAL, you can literally write the great American essay on one sticky note and just shrink it down to infinitely small size. So, you're not as limited.

We always used to tell people, oh, use Sharpie on a sticky note. That's because a Sharpie and a sticky note create one idea. But it's way too easy in virtual visual capture to put too much information into one sticky note.

Douglas: You know, Daniel, that's a big debate: how much limitations did the software put on us to mimic the real world? I think that's a fascinating conversation.

Daniel: I would love to be able to switch on real-sticky-note mode.

Douglas: Yeah, that’d be fantastic. And I find as a facilitator, where you talked about virtual being more difficult, and this is just one example. There's a long, long list of why we have to lean in more, and it's difficult to be a lazy facilitator, virtually, whether it's we're looking to see how long the sticky notes are or we're making sure that people are connected and having to do troubleshooting and provide technical support.

One of the things we spoke about, this notion of helping teams get unstuck and making sure that they continue the momentum as they leave the workshop and they go start to build their vision. And you talked about that being the magic question, just having to look around and just check and see if everything's fixed. This is something that I've talked to Erick Skogsberg quite a bit about, this notion of, from learning the science, we have to consider assessment points. What is our learning objective and making sure we've built in points of assessment so we can understand if we've gotten there. And even if you're not training people, it's important that you build this into workshops because you're taking people on a journey and you want to make sure that they're hitting the milestones, right? What do we do virtually? You and I have talked about this quite a bit, but what do the listeners need to know about virtual kind of reading the room?

Daniel: Well, you have to find other feedback loops. And I think that's where—like, when we've set up MURALS for multiple tables, when you put them on separate MURALS, which I know is something you've recommended in the past, especially if you're doing a larger meeting, putting them on separate MURALS reduces the load, but it makes it harder as a facilitator to monitor multiple tables. So it's nice to have three or—if you only have 15 or 20 or 30 people to just make areas for each of the breakout rooms to work, because then you can just see everything that's happening, because while MURAL does have those preview images, as we've argued over before, the preview images don't update often enough for you to get that feedback loop, but it can be really, really simple. I've seen you do this, where you ask everybody to rename themselves in Zoom. And that's pretty meta because you're asking them to give you some information about themselves, but you're also testing whether or not they're engaged and whether or not they are interested. And if you don't see people—if you see people not doing that, then, we don't have anyplace to go because it's like, oh, they don't know how to use the tool, Zoom, and they aren't interested enough to tell you something about themselves in this area. And so it's just finding simpler, smaller feedback loops to make sure that you're moving forward with people with you, if that makes sense.

Douglas: Oh, absolutely. And we've been using two facilitators in most of our workshops, with someone dedicated to looking for those signals. So they're kind of keeping a lookout for those things. So, absolutely.

And also, just to keep this a bit evergreen, I'm now on the beta for the new rendering engine, so do not have to make multiple MURALS for even larger gatherings now on MURAL, so that's pretty exciting. And after that launches, you won’t have to be in the beta program, have access to that. So I'm sure listeners in the future will be happy to have that.

Daniel: I’m wondering why I’m not on that beta program.

Douglas: I think you should talk to some friends, Daniel.

So with that, I’m super-curious about Rock, Paper, Scissors online. How does this work?

Daniel: Well, so here's the thing. Like I say, I, because I think you're referring to a LinkedIn post that I made, where I didn't even think it was possible. I just sort of assumed. And this goes to your sporting-events thing, right? where when somebody does it, then you're like, oh, that's how to do it. And it partially goes against my lazy facilitation principle. But during some of the facilitation masterclass cohorts that I run, we make spaces for people to try out new warmups and icebreakers that they've never done before. And this one woman, Janine Underhill, said, I'd like to try to do a Rock, Paper, Scissors tournament.” And I'm like, “Good luck, sister. I'm going to enjoy this.” And she did it. She did it. It can be done.

I think what's interesting about it is that simultaneity in remote facilitation is impossible because of the speed-of-light limit. It’s basically an Einstein-Bose condensate kind of a problem. If you and I tried to snap at the same time, we can’t. Even if we said, “One, two, three, snap,” we wouldn’t snap at the same time, because you wouldn’t hear me snapping at the same time. There’s a delay because we’re in between this piece of software. The software institutes a delay, and sound travels more slowly than light. And so we’re never going to have simultaneity.

In person, it is very hard to notice that lack of simultaneity, right? When I say, “Rock, paper, scissors, shoot,” it seems simultanous because we're within, like, two feet of each other. But when we are 100,000 miles from each other, and we are on Zoom, we notice it. And what happens is people start slowing down, because we go one, two, three, shoot, as we wait for the other person to catch up with us. And then somebody always throws before the other person, and so it's like—but we don't have a response action time to metabolize that information. And so it's actually a really interesting learning opportunity to talk about how challenging communication can be remotely. But it is totally possible to do it, and it is fun to do it, and it is ridiculous to do it. Everyone should try it.

Douglas: That’s amazing. So structurally, when you do a Rock, Paper, Scissors battle, you're just having people start off in groups.

Daniel: Yes.

Douglas: And then the winners are laddering up to—it’s like a basketball tournament kind of…

How do you do all these groups? Are you doing breakout groups, and then combine them together?

Daniel: Yes, I will, in the interest of community, I will tell you all of my secrets. So Janine worked too hard at it, I think. She did all the initial pairings. We only had a group of 15, and she did all the initial pairings, and she did the secondary pairings as well, and she did the tertiary pairings. She called out all the pairings, kept track of it all. And that was to her credit.

Douglas: She was recording the brackets.

Daniel: She was the bracket-eur. My variation is to have people turn off their video if they lose. That's the easiest thing to do is just have people turn off their video if they lose, because then, at least, the bracketing is easier.

Douglas: Yeah. Or someone could raise their hand if they're looking for…

Daniel: Yes. Totally. They're signaling. And so here's the thing. We could try to do it a perfect way, or we could let the group solve it and see if we can get them to understand everything there is to understand about group communication, because signaling, oh, how do we signal stuff? Okay. How do we start—how do we keep signaling for the rest of our meetings? Okay, cool. And I've seen groups really develop some great habits around, okay, put your hand over your head if you haven't blanked. And so I don't think the bracketing thing—video makes it easier. Bracketing, the problem is, is that I think bracketing can't be done automatically. It's much harder to say, okay, I'm going to claim blank person as my hand-off person. So I haven't solved it. But I also haven't tried to do it with 100 hundred people. I've only done it with 20. And then it works fine. And it's fun.

Douglas: Absolutely.

Daniel: It's as fun and as ridiculous, if not more so, than doing it virtually.

Douglas: Speaking of distributed facilitation in general, you've mentioned to me that it's weirder and squishier. So I guess some final comments for the listeners around challenges, just why is it weirder and squishier? And then, what are you hopeful for? What are you optimistic about?

Daniel: I’ve written about this before. I can send you a link to the article on LinkedIn that I wrote. It's called “This Digital Place,” and we have a sense of place that comes for free by being four-dimensional beings. We exist in space and time, and we've had a long time, our entire lives, to get used to it. And we've had 40,000 years as modern humans to evolve for it. We've evolved in it. This is our—you know, [knocks on wood] this physical space is my native place. And so when we go into this digital place, it feels weird because it is literally not natural for us. But those Post-it notes behind you on the wall are not natural for us either. We designed those for ourselves as a tool, and I cannot imagine having an in-person meeting without those tools anymore, in the short decade that I've had those tools. I remember we didn't always have big Post-it sticky pads. We didn't always have whiteboards. We've grown really used to this environment. In the last 10, 20, 30 years, we've created this built environment around our meetings and our engagements, and we require them now. But I assure you, they are not natural. They feel natural to us because we’ve become acculturated to it and to them. And we do not have a culture for this distributed place. We don't have rituals for this distributed place. We are learning them slowly but surely.

The example I love to give is, whatever it was, like, maybe five years ago, that guy from the BBC whose kids tromped in in the middle of his presentation—a little girl in yellow, running in like she owned the place. It was hilarious. And the guy was super embarrassed. The mother of the kids was extra-special embarrassed. And I was listening to NPR yesterday, where this woman was welcoming this man on to share a report about something. And he's like, I'm really glad to be here. Blah, blah, blah. And then his dog barks in the background. And the interviewer was like, “And it sounds like your dog’s excited to be with us today as well, too. What’s his name?” And he’s like, “It’s Buster.” And she’s like, well, hello to Buster. So, blah, blah, blah, let’s talk about blah, blah, blah. And it was seamless. It was smooth. She was like, whatever. We're just here, and there's a dog. Nobody cares anymore.

That's something to be optimistic about, that we can adapt to this place, that we can learn new tools, that we can learn new rituals and new patterns. The fact of the matter is this is not natural, but there's very, very little that's natural about our lives. And we make our lives. We design the spaces and places where we have the conversations that we want to have. And so I'm pretty optimistic about the fact that our old patterns don't work as well here and that we have to develop new patterns, and that it is possible that maybe we will learn to retain some of those patterns when we get back to meeting in person in 19 months, my current estimate.

Douglas: Well, Daniel, I look forward to continuing this journey with you. I agree, there's lots to learn and there's lots to explore. And we won't know for quite some time where these new norms and these new customs emerge, but I'm already seeing some things happen, and I think you and I are doing our best to be on the forefront of that. And so I just want to say thanks for being there with me, and it's been fun learning with you.

Daniel: Likewise, man. I mean, a lot of facilitators say, “I can't feel the room, and it's not as good.” And honestly, I was one of those facilitators. Jim Kalbach from MURAL will literally quote back to you, like, the umpteen times over the last three years that I said to him, like, “I'm good, dude. I'm a great in-person facilitator. I'd much rather not compete on a global scale with anybody who has access to MURAL for facilitation gigs.” And we're in a situation where that's no longer possible in person is a fundamental assumption of what I used to do. That is impossible anymore.

And I think if we can't adapt, if I can't adapt, if the rest of us can't adapt, we are royally screwed. We have to learn how to do this. And that's one of the reasons why we did the large virtual meetings things together. I thought it was important to push my own limits and say, is it possible to do the kind of big, crazy workshops that we did in person? If they had value—and we thought they did, and I think they still do—then, can we do them here, rather than, I don’t know, wait 18 months before having a bunch of people come together to make an important decision?

I mean, honestly, Janet and I are having a long, ongoing discussion about this. We had to cancel our wedding in June. And what to do about getting married, and do we do a Zoom wedding? Will that be fun? Will that be interesting? Will it feel like a real wedding? Or should we wait an indefinite amount of time to bring everyone together to celebrate the fact that we have something good going here? I don't think that waiting forever is a really good business plan for anything, not for a marriage and certainly not for third-quarter top-to-top strategic meeting. I see you're nodding. You’re like, yeah, they should not be putting off those meetings. And I think people are putting them off, or they're doing them really, really poorly.

Douglas: Yeah. I think there are two outcomes we've seen the more we explore this with companies. And some companies have the mindset, they have it figured out because they know how to run a Zoom meeting, or they know how to do webinars.

Daniel: Right. One to Many—done.

Douglas: Yeah. Like, I'm good. So they're just in the camp of, don't realize all the potential they're missing. And then you've got another camp that says we’ll just wait until we can do it in person because they've got caught flat-footed and they know that there's so much missing, but they don't know what to do. And so that's definitely the inspiration for putting together more virtual offerings. And the large virtual-meetings workshop is, I think, really hits the nail on the head as far as a real challenge around, what do we do with large groups? That sounds troubling. But the fascinating thing to me, Daniel, is that there's so much more that people learn. These aha moments can apply to much smaller meetings, but it's the large groups that people are the most confused by, and so that's where we approach the teaching opportunity.

Daniel: Yeah. And large can just mean 15 or 20. It’s not hard to break the two-pizza rule, right? It is really easy to break the two-virtual-pizza rule quickly, and most of us don't have Fezzik-level skills when it comes to wrestling with large groups. And we need them. Everybody needs them, I think, especially if you work in a large corporation.

But also, I went to a birthday party on Friday for someone I went to junior high school with. And this guy’s sister, who I was best friends with in junior high, she does stand-up comedy. And we did a call on Wednesday for the party, and she’s like, “What should I'd be looking out for, Daniel?” And I was like, “Well, look, it's a lot of people. You need to have an M.C.” And she's like, “Oh, I can do that,” because she's M.C.’d open comedy nights. And it’s like, “You need to have somebody to keep the energy moving and to orchestrate things and to keep the conversation moving.” It's not trivial.

I think maybe this is where comics will find work in this new economy. How the Emmys and the Oscars need Billy Crystal and Kevin Hart, maybe these large virtual meetings just need comics, which is an insight you had for the first Control the Room,right? Just bring in some comedy to keep it going.

Douglas: It might work a little better in the virtual setting, maybe. We’ll see.

Daniel: Yeah. Are they available for me and my team?

Douglas: Yeah. Bring them in, for sure. Yeah.

There’s also some companies that have sprung up that allow you to rent—

Daniel: Llamas? Yes, I know.

Douglas: Llamas and perezosos and all sorts of stuff.

Daniel: I don’t even know what those are, but…

Douglas: Oh, it’s a sloth.

Daniel: Oh, okay.

Douglas: Everyone's got to have a sloth at their workshop.

Daniel: Yeah, but see, that’s just like shiny distraction.

Douglas: I agree. And Daniel, you know, I think this is the exact reason why so many people dislike icebreakers and eye openers and energizers, because they just throw them in, with no reason whatsoever, and without a debrief—in fact, I've started to say, if you can't ask, “Why did we just do that,” and have that erupt into a pithy conversation, ask yourself, “Why did we just do that?”

Daniel: Whoa, yeah. I agree with you. Obviously, I agree with you.

Douglas: So, Daniel, what do we need to leave listeners with? What should they know? And how could they find you, contact info, all that good stuff?

Daniel: Well, I'm on the Internet, easy to find, fairly SEO’d. If you Google “Daniel Stillman,” you might find me. If you Google “The Conversation Factory,” you'll definitely find me. I have a podcast. I have a book coming out, by the way, Douglas. It will be coming out shortly, God willing. It's called Good Talk: How to Design Conversations that Matter. They're advertising it as a step-by-step handbook. It's not a step-by-step guide, because I don't think there's a single recipe that could possibly account for all situations. But it is a map to the territory and can help people learn how to form and shape and guide all the conversations in their lives better, from big-group conversations to the conversations that they have with themselves every day. We have a shocking number of conversations with ourselves, and those need to be designed just as much as quarterly action-plan gatherings and off-sites.

And so if you go https://theconversationfactory.com/goodtalk, you can find it. You can download some chapters. It’s a thing. You don’t have to pay me anything. You don’t have to buy the book. The first two chapters, there’s a lot there—although somebody has told me that I ended the first two chapters at the right spot, that made them want to read the third chapter. And to that, I have to thank Kellie McGann, who helped me with the editing of the book.

Douglas: It is a fantastic book. I've read it several times—

Daniel: What?! Crazy.

Douglas: —and I think it's really critical for people that are wanting to elevate their meetings and just their interactions at work and at home. It is a fantastic way to step back and look at your dialog in an abstract way so that you can put terms to it. So just like physics is the science of being able to take the phenomenon in the world, how the air moves past you and how your car functions, and you can put equations to it so you can understand it. You can talk about it in an abstract way so that you can reason about it. Daniel has done that for conversations. And if you think about how many conversations we have and all the moments throughout life where conversations are important, you can imagine how relevant this book becomes. And I can't highly recommend it enough.

Daniel: It's really, really—it's wonderful to hear you say that. I appreciate you saying it. Writing a book, as you know, is a terrible, terrible thing. I’d never recommend it to anybody. The fact that it's out there and everyone can read it is terrifying to me. You can see what goes on in my head now, and the fact that I had a love of physics, and still do, and a love of design, it's not surprising, hearing you talk about it, I'm like, “All right. Of course. That's why I wrote the book the way that I did.”

Douglas: Excellent. Well, Daniel, it's been a pleasure having you here today, and I can't wait to chat with you again.

Daniel: Thanks, Douglas. It's always a pleasure. Thanks, man.

Outro: Thanks for joining me for another episode of Control the Room. Don't forget to subscribe to receive updates when new episodes are released. If you want more, head over to our blog, where I post weekly articles and resources about working better together, voltagecontrol.com.

“... part of what we're looking at is what you're describing with meeting airtime and inclusivity. There's also a whole other element to how AI can support the right behaviors in meetings and be able to, for example, not only take in information around who's talking, but things like voice level. When people are getting heated, when their body level changes, they shift from leaning in, to sitting back. Even temperature in the room, is it starting to literally get heated? We talk about conversations getting heated, but that actually has an impact on the temperature in the room that you're sitting in.”

Nicole Baer is the Global Head of Marketing for Logitech’s Video Collaboration Business. She’s well versed in non-verbal communication and perception with regards to connection in meetings. Perceptive and empathetic, Nicole brings humility and awareness to every conversation, and invites other facilitators to do the same.

In this episode of Control the Room, I speak with Nicole about AI personal assistants, fighting the daily burden of cognitive load, and interjecting levity into the mundane. Listen in to see how she showcases the necessity of including aspects of normal social dynamics into our virtual environments.

"People have been aware of racism for a long time, but I think we have all had our awareness radically heightened and our eyes open in these last few weeks."

Jake Knapp

I'm Douglas Ferguson, and I'm on a mission to help people everywhere have better meetings. There's clear evidence that poorly run meetings not only waste time, but they also squander a lot of money. A recent report by Doodle found that $541 billion is lost globally every year on common meeting mistakes–and that's just the report from the County for Direct Labor Costs. This staggering amount translates into opportunity costs we incur from ineffective meetings.

I'm excited to have Jake Knapp with me today! He is the creator of The Design Sprint, author of Make Time and author of the New York Times bestseller Sprint: How to Solve Big Problems and Test New Ideas in Just Five Days. Jake also happens to be one of the world's tallest designers. 

We talk about Sprint, spending time with the family, and how Jake's book is more relevant now in light of the COVID pandemic. Amid the pandemic and riots, we are challenged by outside events that we can't control but are forced to deal with at the moment. "We also can't ignore the fact that these things offer great opportunities for us." Jake talks about embracing the right parts of staying at home, such as spending more time with family.

Listen in to our dialogue about learning how to remove shame when talking about racial barriers, how we are both feeling the change, and how we can have a positive impact. Find out why Jake hates meetings, the pros and cons of online meetings, and design elements involving movement of the human body during the workday.

“Three-quarters of enterprise customers and around 67% of consumers primarily buy and compete on experience. And we kind of know that intuitively. Think about it, we pay extra for certain brands that we feel connected to. And it's one of the interesting things I've been talking more about. There's a great quote, not mine... "The best experience anywhere becomes the minimum expectation everywhere."” -Todd Allmond

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Todd Allmond about his years of enterprise experience, where he learned to better understand customers through quantitative and qualitative research. He used those insights to improve their digital and non-digital experiences and the role service providers play in Customer Experience.  We discuss how a market research field studies trip led to his early career change and passion for all the humans involved in the customer journey.  We then discuss why digital customer experiences should be treated as products.  Listen in to hear actionable tips for mitigating blindspots in the CX research process.

“I think one of my favorite quotes that I heard was this idea that a picture's worth a thousand words and a prototype is worth like a thousand pictures. And this idea that you bring this thing that you can interact with, you are going to have such a depth of conversation of feedback, you are going to just have this amazing conversation and learn so, so much instead of just showing up to your client and saying, "Okay, let's talk about it." Right?”-Carlye Lauff

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Carlye Lauff about her experience working at LUMA, prototyping, and teaching at the University of Minnesota.  We talk about her new book called Design Innovation Methodology Handbook - Embedding Design in Organizations.  We then discuss the difficulty of building Prototyping capacities within organizations.  Listen in to learn how to use prototyping to build empathy with users, the curse of knowledge, and failing better.

“Fallow is such an eco-cyclical idea but I feel that it's very underrated. So I've been thinking about the value. We think about moving through creative destruction into periods of renewal, there is a space and time that is fallow. Things are sort of resting and they're quiet. And there are different ideas and different sorts of notions or learnings that are sort of dormant in us.  And then they come out at these times and you're like, well, that's been waiting to just emerge as this delightful piece of tacit knowledge, and then it becomes more explicit knowledge. But I love the idea that there are these things simmering. They're all part of the compost. They're all part of the soil.”-Anna Jackson

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Anna Jackson about her experience helping groups work together on what matters most to them, often facilitating collaborative learning experiences, and as a partner for people who want to learn Liberating Structures.  We explore why it’s ok to be fallow at times and methods for understanding the needs of clients.  We then discuss the differences in group work and individual work.  Listen in to learn about the mechanisms of systems thinking, transitional facilitation, and learning partnerships.

“Transitions are scary. Change is scary. So depending on the context, it could be a good thing, it could be a bad thing. And all of that can activate our fear response and our grief response. So there's a lot of neuroscience theory and brain science theory around transitions and change that we can talk about. But I think for me personally, I always feel like I step into the light. I'm very curious. I'm very curious, and I very much try to stay aware of those moments in life that can become lightning rods to go somewhere different. I'm a "yes and" person. So because I'm so curious and I'm really obsessed with continuous learning, if I trust the universe and I trust my intuition, it has led me in places that I have never anticipated.” - Maria Giudice

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Maria Giudice about her decades of experience leading design, creative, and business leaders.  She begins with reflections on how a Professor reframed her perspective on design and its value to others.  Later, Maria shares her thought on transition and how to approach it best.  We also discuss one of Maria’s learning experiences leading design initiatives at a large software company in detail.  Listen in for tips on how to keep making progress even during failure.

“I think that it is challenging to bring our own thinking and our own mental models to the surface because we're not trained to do it. We're not really teaching kids how to be reflective of their own thinking and the role that their emotions play in framing up their conclusions and how they feel about the world. And so we don't have great capability in that. It doesn't mean we can't, there are certainly people who have developed and cultivated a deep practice of reflection and metacognition that enables them to understand not just what they believe, but why they believe it. But I think the truly foundational thing to engaging in this practice for yourself and with others is a recognition that there are very, very few right answers in the world, right?”-Jennifer Reil

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Jennifer Reil about her experience working at IDEO, metacognition, and teaching at the Management School at the University of Toronto.  We talk about her new book Creating Great Choices: A Leader’s Guide to Integrative Thinking.  We then discuss the difficulty in building the capacity to think about what we think about and opposing modals of thinking.  Listen in to learn how to build empathy, the curse of knowledge, and failing better.

"I saw her facilitate and I thought, "Wow, she's really drawing things out of the group instead of telling them what to do." That was so powerful, and I thought to myself, "I want to do that. I want to be able to do that type of work someday."- Dr. Karyn Edwards, PCC

In this episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast, host Douglas Ferguson converses with Dr. Karyn Edwards, an organizational psychologist and executive coach. Dr. Edwards shares her journey into facilitation and leadership, starting at Carlson Wagonlit Travel. She highlights the influence of her mentor, Julianne Weiss, and discusses overcoming imposter syndrome and challenges in leadership roles. The episode delves into the importance of "power skills" like emotional intelligence and adaptability. Dr. Edwards also talks about her current work, including writing for the Association for Training and Development and exploring organizational culture change programs. The episode underscores the transformative power of coaching.

“Well, for me, I like to think of ensemble as a behavior rather than a specific group of people. And to think of ensemble behavior as a situation when I'm looking at the group that I'm with and we are working to make something that's different than what any one of us would make on our own, and that this specific ensemble I'm going to work with to support the thing that we are going to make together that's going to be different from what anyone else is going to make.” - Anne Libera

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Anne Libera about her time teaching comedy and improv at The Second City.  She starts with reflections on the relationship between improv and behavior.  Later, Anne shares why she created the first Comedy Writing Degree in the U.S.   We also discuss the three elements of Comedy: Recognition, Pain, and Distance.  Listen for thoughts on how and why we might bring comedy into our lives.

“Neil Postman, and Neil postman said, "Children enter school as question marks and they leave and as periods." And I love that, and I think what he's saying is, they're coming in full of wonder and then they're coming out less full of wonder.  So I felt like I want to tackle this issue in some way, and so what I've been doing is going around to schools and just talk about some things maybe that could be done to create an environment where children are going to be more likely to raise their hand with a question. And it's interesting, I mean, it's the same for adults I think as it is for kids, the culture that's needed is all about safety first. It's got to be safe for kids to ask a question. So how do you build that safety? Well, the first thing you do, is you put the message out there, very strongly, that questions are wanted. And then you show that they're appreciated. However you convey that message, it could just be verbally, or it could be through things you put on the wall or whatever. You're sending that very strong that this is a questioning safe place. And in fact, more than questioning safe, we want questions, they're encouraged, they help us.” -Warren Berger

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Warren Berger about his journey becoming a “Questionologist”.  He shares why he thinks learning to ask better questions is a science and an art, why kids are such great questioners, and why we lose the incentive to question as we age. We then discuss tips to develop cultures of inquiry in your personal and professional lives. Listen in to learn the differences between why, what if, and how might we questions.  

“At the time, I didn't even think of myself as working in an innovation lab, even though there were multiple innovation labs and all the teams worked in them. The way I perceived it back then is that we had a lot of freedom and that you were given a principle or a value, a problem to solve, and that it was the teams or your individual responsibility to really sincerely think about that problem and challenge yourself to solve it in creative ways, to reach out to people, to not be defensive. So, some of those things will always be true with innovation that it takes multiple people. It takes someone to care and go deep, and be curious, and they need some level of creative freedom to explore, experiment, to put out something that's imperfect and keep trying to get feedback as they go.” -Tricia Ratliff

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Tricia Ratliff about her years of enterprise experience leading innovation initiatives, nuances of facilitation, and commonalities of successful shifts in the way people work together. She also shares how the pandemic shifted the objective of her work. We then discuss how to virtualize a program, accidental innovations, and the importance of norms, values, and ground rules. Listen in to hear why it’s important to listen to objectors of transformation efforts.  

“Life is gray. It's not black and white. It's possible to admit that the FBI made mistakes and at the same time recognize the ultimate responsibility of Koresh to have led his people out peacefully, as we encouraged him to do every single day.” Gary Noesner

Gary Noesner, author of the book Stalling for Time: My Life as an FBI Hostage Negotiator, retired from the FBI in 2003 following a 30-year career. During this career, Gary was named the first chief of the FBI Crisis Negotiation Unit. As a negotiator, he was personally involved in numerous high-profile crises, cases, and seizures, including the Branch Davidians in Waco, recently dramatized by the Netflix series.

I had the pleasure of speaking with Gary about the gray nature of life, what distinguishes wants vs needs, and the game-changing power of making adjustments at half-time. Listen in to find out how Gary’s discomfort with conflict in his youth led to his career as a hostage negotiator for the FBI.

Show Highlights

[7:29] The fatal mistake of assuming that high rank equals expertise

[14:07] The realization that life is gray

[19:00] Saving the most lives possible

[22:29] Making adjustments at half-time

[26:40] Distinguishing between wants and needs

Links | Resources

Gary on LinkedIn

Stalling for Time: My Life as an FBI Hostage Negotiator

About the Guest

Gary Noesner, author of the book Stalling for Time: My Life as an FBI Hostage Negotiator, retired from the FBI in 2003 following a 30-year career. During this career, Gary was named the first chief of the FBI Crisis Negotiation Unit. As a negotiator, he was personally involved in numerous high-profile crises, cases, and seizures, including the Branch Davidians in Waco, recently dramatized by the Netflix series.

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation agency that helps teams work better together with custom-designed meetings and workshops, both in-person and virtual. Our master facilitators offer trusted guidance and custom coaching to companies who want to transform ineffective meetings, reignite stalled projects, and cut through assumptions. Based in Austin, Voltage Control designs and leads public and private workshops that range from small meetings to large conference-style gatherings. 

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Intro: Welcome to the Control the Room Podcast, a series devoted to the exploration of meeting culture and uncovering cures for the common meeting. Some meetings have tight control, and others are loose. To control the room means achieving outcomes while striking a balance between imposing and removing structure, asserting and distributing power, leaning in and leaning out, all in the service of having a truly magical meeting.

Douglas: Today I’m with Gary Noesner. Gary retired from the FBI in 2003 following a 30-year career, during which he was named the first chief of the FBI Crisis Negotiation Unit. As a negotiator, he was personally involved in numerous high-profile crises, cases, and seizures, including the Branch Davidians in Waco, recently dramatized by the Netflix series. He's also author of the book Stalling for Time: My Life as an FBI Hostage Negotiator. 

Welcome to the show, Gary.

Gary: Thanks. It's a pleasure to be with you.

Douglas: So, Gary, I'm always fascinated to hear how people got their start, especially in the world of facilitation. And I’m sure negotiators are no different. While there’s certainly a course at Quantico, there’s not readily degree programs, like, “Oh, I’m going to go become a negotiator or become a facilitator.” It's a quite circuitous path a lot of people take. And I'm curious. All the way back to the Lakeland High School, you know, talking about some of those early situations you found yourself in, at what point did you really start to realize that you had this gift of kind of working with people?

Gary: Well, I think as an early age, I was always uncomfortable around conflict and always sort of stepped up to the plate to de-escalate confrontations and arguments, whether it's between friends or others. It just seemed like a natural and appropriate thing to do for me. So when I got into the FBI, after wanting to do that since I was young, I had no sense that anything about negotiation existed because it didn't when I joined. But when I first got in the early part of my career, the FBI had sort of taken on this hostage-negotiation concept that had been started by NYPD. And there's something about it that really attracted me, and I thought it fit my personality and skill set. So I got the early training, and it was an auxiliary function for me for many, many years. And eventually I became a full-time negotiator and chief of the Crisis Negotiation Unit for the last 10 years of my career. But it was very challenging, and, yeah, there's a lot of similarities with mediation, facilitation. It's all about building relationships and influencing people in a positive way. 

Douglas: And it must have been kind of—it's like coming full circle as you were one of the first to take the course, and then you ended up taking the program over. What did that feel like when you remember it? Like, what was that like?

Gary: Well, in those days, when I first got involved, the FBI, perhaps more so than today, played a pretty significant role in training police departments. Police departments didn't have a lot of money for training back then, so part of the FBI's mission was to provide it at no charge. And one of the areas, of course, was negotiation. It eventually became the thing we taught more than anything else, except for maybe firearms. And it gave me an opportunity to really interface with a lot of police officers in ways that I might not have had a chance otherwise. And that was a really valuable piece of my learning as an agent, as a human being. And, you know, I certainly got as much from those officers as I gave. It became apparent to me very quickly that the skills and the approaches we were teaching had a real impact. It wasn't theoretical. It allowed officers to exercise some specific skills to prevent violence and come home alive to their families. So immediately I recognized it as rewarding and meaningful and certainly something I always enjoyed.

Douglas: Something that really caught my eye—and I kind of can parallel it back to even the theme of the show, which is control, and how much control do we lean into, and how much do we back away from? And I really struck a chord with this notion of maintaining balance. And you were talking about managing yourself and the people around you. And in fact, I think there is a quote that really caught my eye, which was, if you cannot control your own emotions, how can you expect to influence those of others?

Gary: That's literally the first line that comes out of my mouth when I teach negotiations, because it's so true. I mean, if you want to influence others and yet you yourself are emotionally charged or dealing not in a logical, thoughtful, empathic way, then you're probably not going to be as successful as you would otherwise. So self-control is terribly important. And you tend to see people that perform at the highest levels in certainly law-enforcement negotiations are typically people who have a lot of self-control. 

And one of the chapters in my book, Stalling for Time, I start each chapter with a quote. And a quote I always like, it's a partial quote from Rudyard Kipling about if you can keep your head about you when all else are losing theirs. 

And I think that says a lot to me about the kind of person that makes a good negotiator and what is required. It's somebody that can think clearly in the midst of a situation where others might be so overcome with various forms of reaction that they're not optimally performing. You know, it's kind of like—I always do the comparison of a trauma surgeon. You know, when mass casualties are brought into an emergency room, the trauma surgeon, it's not that they're not human and don't see the damage that some people have suffered or perhaps been deceased, but they focus immediately on what has to be done, which is to save as many lives and determine which ones need their most immediate care. So they put those emotions aside so that they can function at an optimal level or highest level they can. And I think negotiations is very akin to that.

Douglas: Yeah. It reminds me of the, never confusing getting even with what you want.

Gary: Yeah. And it's a good phrase we used to use for our commanders because even law enforcement, somebody can be a fairly high rank and have a lot of different experiences in an agency. It doesn't mean that they've had a lot of experience managing with these kinds of crises. 

And law-enforcement officers are human beings, and when a perpetrator, particularly one that is maybe not a model citizen or somebody that may not have any attributes that we would find commendable, when they refuse to do what we want and they don't cooperate and they back out of promises, they engage in any number of problematic behaviors, you really got to maintain your self-control because if you respond and react to that, you may get even with them, but are you really accomplishing what your goal is, which is to get your way? And “to get our way” in the context of negotiation means we get people to peacefully surrender, to comply, to do what we think is not only in our best interest, but in their best interest. We don't want anybody to get hurt. So I found a lot of my career time was helping on-scene commanders and decision makers, chiefs of police, sheriffs, understand that concept. 

There's always an assumption that people of a high rank know how to do everything. And of course, that's a fatal mistake you can make, because they don't necessarily understand, especially—someone might be a great internist as a doctor, but can they perform brain surgery? Probably not. So, you know, just because you have the MD in front of your name doesn’t mean you can do everything there is that could possibly come before you. So we have to know our limitations, and we have to understand that there are people who have more expertise that we probably would be wise to listen to.

Douglas: Yeah. It reminds me of your points in the book around just the crises within the crises and these other negotiations that have to happen. So you're managing quite a lot at the same time.

Gary: Yeah. I mean, and of course, I know we'll be talking about Waco shortly, but I got asked this on a recent interview, and I never really thought about it from that complexity point of view that while out there, I had three very distinct roles. I had to manage the negotiation team, maybe 15 or 20 people, and ensure that it was functioning properly and proceeding in a strategic way, the way I wanted it to. And at the same time, I had to convey what we wanted to the bosses and convince them to support the strategic approach we were taking, and that could often be a challenge. And then, last but not least, is dealing with David Koresh and all the unique issues and problems that he brought to the table. So, you know, you find yourself sometimes being the ringleader in a three-ring circus, you know, and trying to keep everybody functioning in the right way so we can achieve the outcome we want.

Douglas: Yeah. And speaking of Waco, let's talk about that for a moment. I was really curious to hear your thoughts on how well it portrayed the negotiation process, because from a storyline perspective, when I compare your book to the show, there's definitely some sensationalism on the Branch Davidian side. My depiction was that it demonstrated the conflict with the kind of more forceful approach and also just the kind of slow, intentional approach ya’ll were taking. But I’m just kind of curious as far as, like, anything about the negotiation process that you felt was maybe skewed in the presentation.

Gary: It's a big question, and there's a lot of variables. Obviously, they bought my book to show the FBI side of the story and what perspective we had from outside looking in. And then they bought David Thibodeau’s book—he was a surviving Branch Davidian—to get the perspective of someone inside looking out. And I liked that approach, to look at it from both angles. But specifically addressing the negotiation part, they got a lot of parts of the negotiation very right. What was the Hollywood dramatization part is they had my character doing all these things on his own, when in reality I'm leading the team, and there's eight, nine negotiators per shift. It's quite a complex and many-moving-part operation. So obviously, Hollywood doesn't want to pay those additional actors and introduce their characters and get the audience to know them. It's a whole different level of challenge, that they wanted to showcase Michael Shannon, who was one of the two main stars of the TV show who played me. 

Douglas: I got to say, if I'm ever played by anyone, I would say Michael Shannon wouldn't be a bad—that’s not a bad deal to get.

Gary: I had seen Michael Shannon in Boardwalk Empire, that TV show. 

Douglas: Mm-hmm.

Gary: I was very impressed with him in that show, and I didn't even know his name, to be honest with you. And they came out and said, “This Michael Shannon's been hired to play you.” And I looked him up right away. I said, “Oh, it’s that guy.” Well, he is just an incredible actor and human being. And, you know, during my time on the set, we had an opportunity to become quite friendly and had basically drinks and dinner every night while I was out there. And what an incredible actor. And he certainly was not trying to imitate me, but he captured the tenor of my philosophy, which goes back to your earlier question. I think those issues that came up, including the conflict between the tactical side of the FBI that wanted to take a different approach, I think that's very accurately reflected. Again, not so much in the exact form, but certainly in terms of substance. And he had it down very, very well and, I think, did an incredible job.

And let me add another thing, Douglas. You know, what I found is I felt that part of the reason I wrote my book was to educate current and future FBI leaders. And one of the things they need to be educated on is to understand not only the mistakes that the FBI made there, but the good things we did. And there were far more of those than not. But if someone doesn't write that down and record it, those things fall through the cracks and they're forgotten, and sometimes mistakes are repeated, and good behaviors are not appreciated or replicated. So I wanted to write it for that reason. And I also feel that in the FBI, we serve the American people. If we do something wrong, we should step up to the plate, admit what we did, demonstrate that we are making changes and corrections, and I think we owe it to the American people that we serve to do those things. So for all those reasons, I wrote that book and stand by the portrayal of the FBI overall. 

What I'm not quite as happy about is I think the portrayal on the other side of David Koresh came up a bit short for me because in reality, David Koresh was a far more dark and sinister, manipulative guy than was portrayed. The other great actor there—there were several of them—but Taylor Kitsch, who played Koresh, was just phenomenal. And he's such a nice guy in real life that I think that came through. And the producer, directors wanted to show the charismatic side of Koresh, what allowed him to attract followers and gain their total allegiance. And they did that, but I just don't think they showed sufficiently. They showed some dark things from him but not enough to my satisfaction. And I talked to them about that and tried to change that. But what you find out is when you sell your book to Hollywood or somebody else, you have some influence, but you don't have control.

Douglas: Yep. I think that echoes my read on it as well. It’s a little sensationalized on the, like, kind of making people want to have a little more sympathy than maybe you would have if you were watching it go down from the sidelines.

Gary: You know, you’re into facilitation, and I think the biggest takeaway for facilitators, if you want to use Waco as sort of an example, is the realization that life is gray. It's not black and white. It's possible to admit that the FBI made mistakes and at the same time recognize the ultimate responsibility of Koresh to have led his people out peacefully, as we encouraged him to do every single day. So you don't have to say, “Oh, these guys were all good, and these guys were all bad. The big old bad government came in and just wanted to kill people.” I mean, it's actually intellectually lazy to take on those extreme views and not very realistic. There were good people in there who were practicing their faith, and there were highly dedicated FBI agents who wanted nothing but everybody to come out alive. So to make those general derogatory statements, I think, is just showing you haven't done your research, and you haven't read about what really happened, and you don’t understand.

Douglas: Coming back to your goals for the book around really cementing the positive impact so they're not lost, it also jumped out to me when you were talking about these post-incident reviews and applying these lessons learned, it was interesting because it seemed like the popularity of the techniques within the FBI began to grow as you started to celebrate some of these wins. But the irony of it all was, maybe one of the ones that I was the most tickled by and I thought that you guys did such an amazing move was the steaks and gravy and cakes for the prisoners. So they're all having a Thanksgiving coma while the tactical thing went in, and clearly, not much credit was given after the fact for that.

Gary: Yeah. You know, it's funny. A lot of people in law enforcement are really not well versed on what negotiators do and why we do it. It's sort of a soft science, and you know there’s more to taking action than here's a bad guy. We're going to do this to suppress them, arrest them, whatever we have to do. And, you know, when you do negotiate people out, which we do, in the 90 percentile, people say, “Well, it must not have been so hard. That guy must not have been that dangerous anyway.” And they sort of make some excuses for it. Of course, I always want to say, “Well, you try doing it when somebody's life is on the line.” But it's a hard thing to define. 

But just as in facilitation, we're building relationships, and people expect in these situations law enforcement to show up and be very confrontational, very demanding, very dictatorial. You will do this and you better do that, or we're going to do x, y, z. And instead they get somebody like me show up and say, “Hey, David. This is Gary. What's going on in there? I'm here to help. I don't want to see anybody get hurt.” It's something they don't expect, and it gives us an opportunity to listen to them and to better understand what their motivation is, what their feelings are, how they interpret what has happened. It allows us slowly and steadily to lower the tension, to de-conflict and de-confrontate. And it allows us to begin eventually to have some influence over their behavior. And, you know, you typically will get to a point where a guy like David Koresh, which you didn't hear, he said, “You know, I just don't know what I can do. I don't know what to get out of, how to get out of what I got into.” And you say, “Well, you know, here's some ideas for you, and here's something you might want to think about. And come out to jail and tell the world your side of the story. It needs to be heard.” You know, those are things we did, and with some effect, we got 35 people out during the first half when I was there, including 21 children. That’s a fact that many people forget. And it was not an easy task, and I'm very proud of it. I’m no less disappointed that we didn't get more out or everybody out. But you got to recognize that human emotion is a really challenging thing. And when there's been loss of life, like it was at Waco before we even arrived as the FBI, I mean, we were already in a deep ditch, and we got to dig out of that. It's pretty tough.

Douglas: You know, as you were speaking, it reminded me of some notes I wrote down around there's a lot of similarities between facilitation and negotiation, but there's some clear differences as well. We’re not dealing with—life and death is usually not at stake. And the fundamental contradiction that you mentioned, which I thought was really fascinating, we don't really struggle with that so much, right? Like, we're all about building trust, but we never, ever have to bend the truth, or we never have to potentially send them into harm's way. And when I think about that story, was it in West Virginia, where Cheryl's husband, her and her child. And there was a lot of interesting dynamics there from the perspective of opening up options and demonstrating a future when you know that that future may not exist. So I’m kind of curious how that unfolds, just as you're kind of regulating your emotions.

Gary: Well, it's a tough case. And, you know, my book is about the importance of negotiation and how it is a tool that law enforcement should even use more, and then I start off the first chapter of my book with a situation where we have to use deadly force to resolve it. But it was a very dramatic case. It showed how even in those cases where the behaviors, the actions of the perpetrator are so extreme that our chance of getting them to comply and resolve it peacefully are pretty slim and, thereby, someone else is going to die. So then the negotiator has to segue into a role that allows you to become more supportive of the only option we have left, and that's using force. 

In Sperryville, I talked him into coming out to a helicopter, where a marksman ended his life. In the Talladega prison, that you alluded to earlier, we knew hostages were going to die, so we gave in and gave them a very sumptuous meal for the first time in eight days to sort of, excuse the expression, fatten them up and to lure them into a sense of victory and empowerment. And they took the bait and gorged on the food and basically went into sweet slumber that allowed the Hostage Rescue team to make a really terrific, well-executed entry and save everybody's lives. 

So there are times where negotiators have to recognize reality, that while we will be successful most of the time, there's nothing in what we do that guarantees success and certainly not 100 percent of the time. So we have to be adaptable and flexible. And the bottom line is, how do we save the most lives possible?

Douglas: Yes. That was the thing that was going through my mind in both of those scenarios because Sperryville, you saved a woman and her child; and then the prison example, I mean, how much more carnage would have happened if they would have been bracing for it?

Gary: That’s right. I mean, if we had continued to deny them food until they released the hostages, I mean, I think we stood a good chance of having them kill one of the hostages to try to force us to do what they wanted, and that's one less human being alive today to survive that. So we have to take all that into consideration. And you make the best decisions you can, and you have to weigh all the facts. That's why we function—in Waco, I get a lot of credit operating by myself, but in reality, we're leveraging a team of very skilled and talented negotiators that bring a lot to the table from their training and their personal experience. We said, “What do you think? What are your ideas? Did you hear something I didn't hear?” And we really use that to full advantage to try to come up with the best approach that we think will achieve what we want in this particular incident.

Douglas: That brings to mind something else I wanted to bring up, which was the comment of you write good notes. And it really resonated with me because I often love to facilitate with a co-facilitator, and I find that when, especially when we're exploring really tough issues that, like, a team is really struggling, like, they can't seem to get past some personal issues, or they're just stuck on some things, when you’re there working directly, it’s sometimes hard to see the big picture because you’re in the content, you're in the moment. But if you're on the sideline kind of just observing, you can see interesting things. So I was just wondering, is that similar in the negotiation world? When you're observing and writing these notes, do you find that you see things you wouldn't have seen if you were just on the phone, in the moment with them, like, watching every word, that kind of thing?

Gary: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's akin, Douglas, if you want to do a comparison, you think of a college or a professional football game. You ever notice how sometimes—not all the time—the second half is dramatically different from the first half? I mean, dramatically different? And you say, “Boy, what happened? That must've been a hell of a speech that the coach gave.” Well, what it really was is the coaches up in the booth, they’re studying what happened. They're making adjustments at halftime. It's coaching. It's not being personally involved in playing that position out on the field, but watching it and seeing where changes or improvements can be made to get the outcome we wanted. 

So negotiations is no different. If I’m the negotiation coordinator, or the coach, it allows me to listen to the interplay between the primary negotiator on the phone and the perpetrator, and then either in between calls or through passing a short, cryptic note, help nudge them to something I've seen that I think they may not have fully appreciated. 

The quote you're talking about is in Waco. This mother was very angry that her son was by himself. He had been released in the Child Protective Services, and we sent a video in of all the children. And she was very angry at us for his forlorn status. And, you know, rather than just trying to defend ourselves, I passed a note to John Dolan, our primary negotiator at the time, and he read it, and he smiled. And it just said, “You know, Kathy, what little Brian needs now is a hug from his mommy.” And you could almost hear the arrow strike her heart. And, I mean, it was the one phrase that kind of brought it home to her that she was the missing piece. It wasn't us that was causing trauma to her child. It was the fact that she sent him out, and she stayed in to fight for Koresh, that it was her maternal responsibility to do this. And I think that shot hit home, and she came out the next day, and she was the first, essentially the first, adult that came out. And that was a very meaningful goal that we’d achieved.

Douglas: It really struck home for me when I read that because sometimes people aren't even necessarily self-aware or why they're upset. And if they're lashing out to you, and you can—it's almost like judo, which is redirect their energy, kind of become more aware of where the center is.

Gary: Yeah. You know, when you look at negotiations broadly—I'm not talking specifically Waco here—really, very few of them are actually hostage-taking events, where someone's being held to force somebody else to do something. Probably 90 percent of what police do around the country are dealing with highly emotionally charged situations. Often the jilted lovers, romantic situation gone bad; somebody holding an employer who fired them; an argument with a neighbor. There are people who are expressing anger, rage, and frustration who don't even have a clear goal of what they're trying to achieve. In other words, they've gotten themselves into something they have no idea how to get out of. And that's the role that the negotiator could play to try to understand those emotions and those drivers of their behavior, and to try to deal with those and diffuse those. That's what makes us successful. It's an approach that people don't expect from law enforcement. We certainly got that from the mental-health counseling community. And it's very effective in getting people to, for the first time, hear themselves what is driving them, and they may not appreciate, you know?

Douglas: Yeah. It reminds me of another note that I had taken around you had talked about the role of the negotiator was to help people express their fears, so allowing them to open up. And it was interesting because as I read it, it was definitely similar to things that we're trying to do in the workplace, because often people have these unstated fears. It's just they're not vulnerable enough to say it out loud because they're worried someone's going to judge them or maybe they haven't even figured it out yet. And so simply stating what might be clear to you but not to them and allowing them to acknowledge it or even just to say yes, I thought that was pretty interesting. 

Gary: You know, we used to talk about helping people understand the difference between wants and needs. So somebody involved in one of these situations may say, I want this and I want that, but it's our job to find out what they really need. Do they really need their job back? Or is it the loss of respect and the embarrassment of having to go home and tell your wife you haven't got a job anymore? I mean, you know, we don't always get that right. But that's kind of our goal, you know? And when we're communicating with them, and we say, “It sounds like you're really embarrassed by what happened,” and if he hasn't articulated that and that, in fact, is what he feels, then we've just really scored some big points because he said, “Yes, that's exactly right. I’m embarrassed by having been fired.” Well, that’s important for us to know if we're going to deal with how he's viewing what happened to him.

Douglas: So, I had this—it was one of the last kind of sentences in your book. And I wrote it down because I thought it was pretty spot on. So I'm just going to read it, and then I'd love to just hear your thoughts today on this. But, “The happiest and most successful people are the ones that can remain calm in difficult times and put aside emotions like pride and anger that stop them from finding common ground. We need to be good listeners and understand the problems and needs of the other side.”

Gary: Yeah. I guess it's never been more true than it is today in our very acrimonious political climate. And I'll bring up some recent events: the protests around the country. When people go out on the street and they carry signs and they're yelling and singing songs, whatever they're doing, what they're basically saying is, “We want somebody to hear us.”

Douglas: Mm-hmm.

Gary: And if instead of finding ways to creatively listen to them, we simply attack them, we're probably not going to be successful. I suspect if you had 100 people in a room and 50 were pro-life and 50 were pro-choice, you could even have great meaningful discussion all night long, and at the end of the evening, you'd probably still have 50-50. But that's okay as long as we've avoided name calling and shouts and threats and violence and so forth. That's the major goal. It's a slow, steady process to try to create an atmosphere where we can listen to others and appreciate their point of view, even if it's different. And I just hate to see that today, particularly in our political environment, we seem to be going in the wrong direction.

Douglas: Yeah. I think that there's a real beauty—I had underscored the statement you made at the end of one of the early chapters, which was, “Listening is the cheapest concession we can make.”

Gary: Yeah. It is. It costs you nothing. And, you know, you can acknowledge someone's point of view, “Let me make sure I understand. You're angry at your boss because he fired you. You don't think he appreciated your work, and you felt as though he mistreated you,” and so forth and so on. I'm not saying to him, “Yes, I think you should kill your boss.” I'm saying to him, “I understand how you feel about what happened.” I mean, that's a powerful thing. If you think about it, the whole evolution of communication between human beings, and we're social animals, we want other people to understand what we're saying and how we feel about it. And if you do that as a facilitator, as a negotiator, you're going to be successful.

Douglas: Gary, it's been so great having you on the show today, and fun chatting and hearing about just the riveting life and career you’ve had in negotiation. Would you like to leave the listeners with any final words?

Gary: Well, I would suggest that people really work on listening. Listening is such an important tool. So when you go out, not so much these days with COVID, but when you have an opportunity to have a social interaction, pick out somebody you don’t know very well or somebody that's a little quiet over in the corner or whatever, and go and talk to them and find out about their life and ask good questions. “Can you tell me more about that? That sounds very interesting. I'd like to hear about that hobby that you have or that trip that you took.” And you'll find that people are far more interesting than you might have realized, that people have done and seen things that you had no idea, and you will learn a lot. And they, in turn, will appreciate the fact that you have taken the time and demonstrated the interest in learning more about them. It is a very, very powerful tool. 

And you know, what we all want to achieve is cooperation with other human beings, and we get that through being likable, plain old likable. Just be a person that strives to be likable and to automatically not think the worst of others and blame others, but seek to understand. Even the business guru Stephen Covey says, first seek to understand, then to be understood. So I’m not sure if that helps, but I would urge people to really make an effort at that. 

Douglas: Well, thanks again for being on the show. It's been great. 

Gary: My pleasure.

Outro: Thanks for joining me for another episode of Control the Room. Don't forget to subscribe to receive updates when new episodes are released. If you want more, head over to our blog, where I post weekly articles and resources about working better together, voltagecontrol.com.

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Matt Alex is the Co-Founder of Beyond Academics, where he guides the Future of Work and Digital Transformation divisions to gather the most brilliant minds of higher education, entrepreneurship, innovation and industry.  Matt strives to transform the college experience by inspiring lead educators across universities from around the country in collaboration towards a life-long learning workforce for the future of work. 

In this episode of Control the Room, Matt and I discuss the future of work through the higher education lens, the juxtaposition of the earn-it model with the life-long model for students, the unbundling and reimagination of the college experience, and the breakdown of segments in structured and unstructured work.  Listen in to hear how Matt is changing the course of higher education for the future of our workforce.

“You already have this constellation internally that is very capable, and you and me and everyone we know. But some of it is burdened. And so it has intense emotional charge that hasn't been released, or it has belief systems that are old and archaic and need to be discarded. But then once they're unburdened, the energy and the natural expression of that aspect of you is just available.”

Sunni Brown

In this week’s episode of the Control the Room podcast, I’m delighted to speak with Sunni Brown, founder of Deep Self Design and Sunni Brown Ink. Sunni has been named one of the 100 most creative people in business and one of the 10 most creative people on Twitter by Fast Company. She is a best selling author, speaker, and expert meeting facilitator.

We talk about the fallacy of using buzzwords in value statements, Cobra Kai, and the tango of co-facilitation. Listen in to find out what The Karate Kid remake can teach us about the complexity of people.

Show Highlights

[8:23] The proven power of taking notes by hand

[15:45] What is authenticity?

[21:27] The fallacy of buzzwords in value statements

[27:38] Cobra Kai, the more naive Karate Kid

[36:47] The tango of co-facilitation

[45:28] Dusting off your inner mirror

Links | Resources

Sunni on LinkedIn

Gamestorming: A Playbook for Innovators, Rulebreakers, and Changemakers

The Doodle Revolution

SB Ink

Sunni’s TedTalk, Doodlers Unite!

About the Guest

Sunni Brown, founder of Deep Self Design and Sunni Brown Ink, is a best-selling author, speaker, and expert meeting facilitator. Fast Company has included her in “100 Most Creative People in Business” and “10 Most Creative People on Twitter.”

Sunni, author of Gamestorming and The Doodle Revolution, leads a worldwide campaign advocating for visual, game, design, and improvisational thinking. She lists empathy, emotional intelligence, collaboration, and effective communication as some of her most sought-after leadership skills.

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation agency that helps teams work better together with custom-designed meetings and workshops, both in-person and virtual. Our master facilitators offer trusted guidance and custom coaching to companies who want to transform ineffective meetings, reignite stalled projects, and cut through assumptions. Based in Austin, Voltage Control designs and leads public and private workshops that range from small meetings to large conference-style gatherings. 

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Intro: Welcome to the Control the Room Podcast, a series devoted to the exploration of meeting culture and uncovering cures for the common meeting. Some meetings have tight control, and others are loose. To control the room means achieving outcomes while striking a balance between imposing and removing structure, asserting and distributing power, leaning in and leaning out, all in the service of having a truly magical meeting. This episode is brought to you by MURAL, a digital workspace for visual collaboration. At Voltage Control, we use MURAL to facilitate engaging and productive meetings and workshops from anywhere. MURAL gives teams the means, methods and freedoms to collaborate visually. Use their suite of facilitation superpowers to control the virtual room and solve tough problems as a team with their pre-built templates and guided methods. To see for yourself why companies like IBM, Atlassian, and E* Trade rely on MURAL, start your 30 day trial at mural.co. That’s mural.co

Douglas: Today I’m with Sunni Brown, founder of Sunni Brown Ink and the Center of Deep Self Design, where she helps people design their best selves. 

Welcome to the show, Sunni.

Sunni: Can I call you D?

Douglas: As long as you don’t call me Doug—

Sunni: Dougie Fresh.

Douglas: —I think I’ll be okay with it.

Sunni: Okay. I might slip up and call you D.

Douglas: D’s perfectly fine.

So, how did you get started? How did Sunni Brown become Sunni Brown Ink?

Sunni: Well, there were many roads that led to that incarnation, but first was that I could not keep a job. So I was fired many times. So there's, like, the shadow side of it, and then there's the accidental, you know, serendipitous aspects of it, and then there's the origin story, like the conditioning-from-family stuff. So there's all wrapped up in that, you know? But first and foremost, I could not—I got fired a lot. And when I say a lot, I mean definitely over 13 times. And so I was good at getting jobs, but I wasn't good at keeping jobs, which is a hallmark of entrepreneurism, but I didn't realize that at the time. I just thought that everyone was an idiot, and somehow I didn't belong in a cage or whatever. I was very unruly as an employee. It was actually legitimately hard for me to keep a job. Even though I was good, I was insubordinate. And so eventually I just recognized that, oh, I need to be my own boss. I didn't know the boss of what. 

But serendipitously and sort of circuitously, I ended up in the Bay Area, which is rife with ideas and opportunity and innovation and potential, and that was a great place for somebody like me. And so I ended up working at The Grove, which is a visual-thinking company, and that was my introduction to visual literacy and visual thinking. I only worked there two years, and then I left and I started my own company, which again, I think—I mean, I think unless you have entrepreneurism in your family, it's almost always accidental. And it’s not— it's accidental and on purpose, but it's not necessarily something—it's, like, something that finds you and you find it, you know? There was a lot of ingredients that made that thing come to life.

Douglas: So, tell us about the experience at The Grove. How did that shape what you're doing now?

Sunni: It was a great experience in the sense that I was from—like, I had just graduated with a master’s in public policy, which always surprises people. But I was kind of working in the public sector, and I didn't even identify as a creative at that time. I didn't like the term creative. I didn't like the term artistic. I was very pragmatic and practical. And so I was not looking for anything of the sort, in terms of ending up at The Grove, and so I was very skeptical. 

So when I was first there, I was just hired as the executive assistant because I had been other people's assistants, but I didn't always mention I’d been fired a lot. So I was very questionable about my job-acquisition ethics. But I did always end up getting jobs. And so eventually I was working for the president, which was David Sibbet, who's, like, the grandfather of visual thinking in the United States. And I was very lucky because I was mentored by him and then eventually mentored by Dave Gray and other kind of like—he wouldn't want me to call him a grandfather, but another godfather, if you will, of visual thinking.

Douglas: Sort of a luminary. 

Sunni: Yeah, absolutely. So those were events happenstantial. But when I first was at The Grove, I was really skeptical about visual thinking, and I thought it was kind of silly, to be honest.

Douglas: So what was the thing that really changed for you? You said you used to think “it was kind of silly.” What really connected the dots for you to realize, like, “Wow, this is something deeper”?

Sunni: Well, so, it was like application. I was first a graphic recorder. I don’t know if you know that about me, but I started as a graphic recorder. So a person would go and do live large-scale visualizations of auditory content. And what I observed in the process of learning how to be that, which did come naturally to me—it was a skill that kind of mapped itself onto my own skills readily, which was surprising—but through that process, I recognized that there was a lot of benefits of visual thinking that were happening to me cognitively. So I was remembering content really well. I was organizing it in my mind and on paper really skillfully. I was comprehending it and sort of like getting insights. And when you’re a graphic recorder, you go and you listen to every topic imaginable. So I noticed that my relationship with the content was really rich and really substantive. And I had to attribute it to what I was doing visually because it wasn't like I was special, you know? It was like, “Oh, my god, there's something meaningful to the brain about this way of thinking.” And that's when I became a convert. You know, I was converted.

Douglas: That's incredible. It makes me think about something that I've been talking with a lot of folks about lately, this notion of multithreaded meetings, where when we're in MURAL and everyone is Livescribing and at the same time—now, it's certainly not at the level of proficiency and craftsmanship that, you know, you were taken to the job as a graphic recorder—but if we're all visually working in the meeting through MURAL or Mirro or any of these other tools and live capturing what we're hearing, we are unsynthesizing on the fly, we're adding nuance to what we hear because it's our own, like, filter. Even if we are attempting to be purist as possible, something's going to happen there. And when you look across the room of what everyone wrote down, you get this really rich picture of what was said, because it's, like, not only what was said, but this diversity of thought layered on top of it.

Sunni: That's cool. That's cool that you're doing that. And absolutely. It makes complete sense, right? It's like this beautiful display of insight that is unique to each person. But it's not a thin relationship. It's a really thick relationship between you and what you're trying to understand. And that's why it's so valuable. And so, then, of course, I became an evangelist about that, and that was in a different chapter of my journey. And I'm really grateful for that, because at this point, I don't do anything without having some visual-thinking component. It’s just how I work and how I think and how I explain things to people. So it just changed everything about how I function. It's really grateful. 

Douglas: That's really cool. You know, it also makes me think about active listening and how one of our skills as a facilitator for active listening is paraphrasing. And if you think about it, only one person can paraphrase at one time because if we were all doing that, it would be cacophonous insanity and the whole power of paraphrasing would be diminished because we're all talking over each other. But if someone's Livescribing or if the whole room is Livescribing, everyone's essentially paraphrasing but in a non-auditory sense, right?

Sunni: Mm-hmm, yeah. That’s why I teach it to educators and then they teach it to students, because when you're typing—I mean, there's a lot of research about typing versus writing in terms of notetaking, and the research is very clear that when you use visual notetaking instead of typing on your laptop and just trying to, like, bang out as much as you can based on what the teacher’s saying, and similarly with handwriting, the knowledge and the insight is much, much deeper when you're using visual networking because you're synthesizing. So you're actively distilling content on purpose, and you're discerning what to believe and what to put on the page, and then you map it to some kind of icon or image so it comes to life. And so I think that that experience is true for everybody. I mean, I taught it all over the world, and it's not ever been somebody who was like, “No, I prefer my laptop typing in terms of knowledge acquisition.” Like, I’ve never met that person, you know?

Douglas: Yeah, absolutely. You know, it also dawned on me. Has the research explored the notion of the spatial aspect of—

Sunni: Uh-huh.

Douglas: —handwritten notes? Because if you think about typed notes, it’s direct to linear; it’s always left to right; it’s up, down—

Sunni: Yeah, totally.

Douglas: —it’s squares; it’s edges.

Sunni: There’s no structure.

Douglas: Yeah. You have that structure is enforced upon you.

Sunni: Right.

Douglas: And if you're having to think through that structure or just flow through it and even move your hand to the upper right and over here and down, it's not so liberal—it's more liberating, maybe.

Sunni: Yeah, that’s right. And Tony Buzan has this great page where he talks about that most kids perceive notetaking as punishment. They refer to it as punishment because that's how it feels, because they're confined and constrained by what you can do. And so when you make the page like a blank space, it's basically a field to plan, and then you can show relationships between things, and you can show spatial content that has an architecture that is inherently not in listing or in writing lists. And so there's, like, nine other things that he—He has a great book, Mind Map that he’s original. But it just describes how it’s like a black-and-white versus a color television. It's just a whole different world. And so it's universally impactful in that way. 

So it was easy for me to fall in love with it after I got over myself, you know? I was like, “Oh, shit, this is like a power tool, and nobody knows it.” Like, very few people were interested in it or thought it was worth exploring, and it was sort of something you put on the side, like you go to art class and do that, or you be weird and do that. Like this guy—

Douglas: Or these geeks in the corner of the conference just plugging away.

Sunni: That’s right. And so I was, like, well, I would like to normalize the shit out of this. And so I was very passionate about it for a long time. And at this point, I've exhausted that passion. But I don't need to have it because other people have it now. So I’m like, “Cool. The torch has been passed, and more power to all of you.”

Douglas: And we talked a little bit about that earlier in kind of the preshow chat. We both have books coming out on the non-obvious press, and I was asking you about—

Sunni: Mm-hmm. Yeah. You’re writing the one I wanted to write, you old buster.

Douglas: You know, you were writing a book on graphic recording.

Sunni: Yeah. It was, like, rapid doodling. Yeah. 

Douglas: Yeah. And I was curious to hear about that. And you said, “Oh, I wasn't inspired.” 

Sunni: Yeah.

Douglas: I mean, you were explaining how you kind of lost the flame a bit—

Sunni: Right.

Douglas: —because you've been doing it for a while—

Sunni: Yes.

Douglas: —and you know it in and out. 

Sunni: Yes. 

Douglas: And it's hard to take that kind of new—

Sunni: Yeah. Like, the beginner’s mind. It’s such an important state of mind and that my relationship with that is not in that state. So I couldn’t strongarm my way into writing that book.

Douglas: And I love how meta that experience for you and going through the conversation with the publisher was in relation to the topic you're actually going to write about, because you talked about not being part of your being or your state right now, the passion right now. And so it must have felt inauthentic.

Sunni: It did. Yeah, it did. It felt forced, for sure. And I told him that I could do it. It's like, it's not that I don't have the ability to sit down and type some shit on a page that makes sense. Like, I can do it. But why would I do that? What is the value of a factory? Like, I'm not a factory. And I mean, I can be, but I don't want to be. And I just was like, fuck it. I'll just—you know, he can get mad at me. I mean, I literally woke up that morning. I was like, what if he sued me? I was like, I don't know what he's going to do. No idea what he was going to do. Because he had the whole—all of our books were going to be published in a certain time, remember? Like, all together. So I didn’t—

Douglas: And then COVID happened.

Sunni: That's right. And I was hoping that he would have considered that and that some of his other off—because you turned yours in on time, did you not? 

Douglas: Yes. And—

Sunni: Well, that's what I mean. So it didn't affect you. Ugh, god.

Douglas: Well, we’re not on time.

Sunni: Yeah, but you’re—

Douglas: We turned it in, but then there was a lot of edits—

Sunni: Right, right.

Douglas: —so we’re still hard at work on it. But it’s great. 

Sunni: That’s awesome.

Douglas: I found working with them to be really fantastic from a—

Sunni: Oh, good.

Douglas: —get it right—let’s take the time to get it right.

Sunni: Uh, yeah. He’s awesome, and he really impressed me that day. And so it was nice to arrive at the topic that I am interested in, I have something to say about. And for me, the most energetic time when I'm learning something is where I'm completely convinced that it's valuable. I have internalized quite a bit of it, but I haven't, like, reverse engineered what it is that I did. So it's like when I was a graphic recorder, I was doing that. I had some training, but I basically trained myself. And then I studied what I was doing. And then I was like, oh, wow, that's really interesting. So for me, it's like that was similar with the deep-self-design stuff. It’s like I've been applying and practicing this stuff for, like, 13 years, and now I'm studying what I'm doing because I want to teach it. So I apparently have these cycles of that. And I was not in that cycle with rapid doodling for problem solving. And I was like, why would I fake this? This is just completely not true for me at all. So thankfully, Rohit was awesome, and he was, like, “Great. I don't want you to write that.” And I almost kissed him through the screen. I was like, “God bless you,” because it was getting painful.

Douglas: And what’s the title of the new book?

Sunni: Well, I don't know yet exactly. It's still in process, but it's something about the “non-obvious guide to being confident,” or maybe “to enter confidence.” And then the subtitle is “without being arrogant or inauthentic,” something like that.

Douglas: Yeah. And I love this notion of confidence is really important when it comes to facilitation. That’s why we both run facilitation practices just to get people experience with the tools and with new ways of doing things. And I also feel that authenticity matters so much. The authenticity allows us to be confident and vice versa. They kind of have this interesting dual purpose or this kind of linked connectedness.

Sunni: And I’ve always been confused by, what is authenticity? What does it even mean? And it’s similarly with integrity. So this is just like a sort of weird question philosophically, which is, if you're authentically being manipulative, like you're totally committed to that activity, then that's not inauthentic. It's un-optimal. It's suboptimal for who you're dealing with. But, like, Trump is authentically an asshole. Do you know what I'm saying? 

Douglas: Mm-hmm. Yes, I do know what you’re saying.

Sunni: So I don’t even know when people describe—because I do often get described as authentic. My mother-in-law—well, she’s family so she could be blowing smoke up my ass—but she’s often like, authenticity is just your engine. And it took me a while. I was like, I don’t even know what she's talking about. But then finally, I came up with this definition, so I want to run it by you and see what you think. So what it is, maybe, is—and I’m sure there are people who’ve done this research, so I'm right on the edge of doing all this great research—which is your internal experience is matched to your external expression. So in other words, what I'm feeling internally—so if I'm feeling disappointment because somebody didn't respond to my text—when I talk to them, I say, “I'm experiencing disappointment about your lack of responding to me, and I'm interpreting it.” So I'm just saying what's true for me. I'm just speaking what— So I think that's what it is. And that's really hard for people, apparently. What do you love about it?

Douglas: Well, you know, it's the same thing as like I think people as a society, we have been primed to not disappoint people and to avoid conflict, and so that forces people to be inauthentic—

Sunni: That's true. So true.

Douglas: —because they’re in pursuit of this vibe or this experience or to avoid. It’s like to minimize your—

Sunni: Yeah. Conflict avoidance is huge, yes. Yes. 

Douglas: Yeah. And it's the same thing as you get a birthday present you don't like, and you’re, “Oh, I love it.”

Sunni: Right.

Douglas: It’s like that incongruency of what you're saying and what you’re feeling. 

Sunni: Yeah. Right.

Douglas: And imagine you walk into a room and you know that you need to pump up that room and get everyone excited. 

Sunni: Right. But you're not feeling it yet.

Douglas: You're not feeling it. And there’s a pit in your stomach that you are not that is you're not being authentic.

Sunni: Well, that, I think, creates anxiety, though, right, because when we’re trying to defy our actual internal experience, that is anxiety provoking. So that’s problematic. And it’s not like I nail it every time, but I definitely have a high fidelity to what my experience is and what my truth is, and then I share that. But I'm not undiplomatic. 

So it's interesting what you're saying about the gift. When somebody gives you a gift and you don't really love it, but you're honoring that they gave it to you, that can still be an authentic experience because you may not love it, but you love that they gave something to you, that they thought of you, right?

Douglas: Right. So why not? Why is it not customary that we say that?

Sunni: I don’t know. I don't think our culture is skillful. I think our culture is really immature in a lot of areas. And communication and conflict is one of them, a big one.

Douglas: Yeah. In our facilitation training, we often work with folks to think about how they can tap into their inner self. And you go much deeper into the internal family-system stuff. The stuff that we're saying to do is at least just check in.

Sunni: Yeah, totally.

Douglas: Does your foot hurt?

Sunni: Right.

Douglas: Does your stomach hurt?

Sunni: Yeah. Connecting to your body.

Douglas: Does it feel hot? Is there a tension in the room? Are you bringing that tension? Are you noticing it? Is that tension impacting you?

Sunni: Yeah. Right. That’s so helpful, though, Douglas. People are so oblivious to their own states. And that is also anxiety provoking. When you’re divorced from your own experience, how could you not be stressed? How could that not be stressful? 

To your point, I do go deep, and I love that. But it's also, what you're doing with people, that's a revelation for a lot of people. Just like, oh, oh, I do. I am hungry. Oh, I have no idea. Or oh, I am disappointed that I wasn't seated with my friend. You know, just anything. And then I often do at the beginning of sessions, I will have them name something that's true for them. And just that simple act of checking in, becoming aware of your state and yourself, and then declaring it, it's like returning to yourself just for a second. And it brings you into the present moment, and it's really helpful.

Douglas: Yeah. Any time we can have some sort of presence-ing activity in an opener, it's really powerful.

Sunni: I know. And you know what’s funny, talking about authenticity? I think I was with you one time when we—I have people often draw, like, just in virtual facilitation, they’ll draw some emotion on a sticky note. And I will just ask, “What is your state of emotion right now?” and then draw an emoji. And then, you know, the ones that are permissible, right—there's permissible, social, emotional experiences. So it'll be like, the craziest one might be that someone's frazzled, but they would never be like, “I’m depressed,” you know?

Douglas: Mm-hmm.

Sunni: No— So there's social norms in that. And again, it’s like, is that inauthenticity, or is that caretaking of the group, or is that not even knowing maybe how you feel? It's like, just, it’s complex, you know?

Douglas: Yeah. It’s interesting because if you're intentionally trying to deceive you being authentic—there's different levels, are you being authentic to yourself? There is intention. And then someone else could perceive you as being inauthentic because you're like, wait, he's totally lying to me. So, yeah.

Sunni: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That’s right.

Douglas: And integrity, I think, is easier for me because I always define integrity—because it shows up on so many companies’ values statements, and I don’t even know—I think most of the time they don’t think about what it means. It’s like, oh, yeah. It needs to say integrity.

Sunni: They don’t even know what it is.

Douglas: Resourcefulness. 

Sunni: They’re like, everybody wants that, for sure.

Douglas: Integrity is just you do what you say you’re going to do.

Sunni: Say you’re going to do? So, okay, what if I say I’m going to throw water on Chet when he’s sleeping? 

Douglas: That’s integrity.

Sunni: And then I do it.

Douglas: You follow through. But if you say you’re going to build a wall and you don’t build a wall, that’s not a lot of integrity.

Sunni: But that means that Hitler had integrity, right? So it’s like if you say—and it’s controversial, but based on that definition, that would mean that, that he followed through.

Douglas: Yeah. But that’s the thing. I think people that take these words and they glorify them as being good qualities.

Sunni: Yeah, they don’t mean anything.

Douglas: And sure, if you have good intent—like, you had to combine them with other things because—that segues nicely into something that we were getting excited about during the preshow chat. And this is just good versus bad, and in binary thinking, how dangerous it is.

Sunni: Yeah, it is. It's one of the thinking distortions. So there's a really great list of thinking distortions that has, like, eight on it. But this also segues into Zen practice, which is central to my entire life. But one of the thinking distortions is making things binary. And it's so tempting. And I do it even though I have a devout practice around not doing that, where I'm seeing the nuance. It's still, it's the brain. Like, we are wired to summarize very quickly for survival purposes. It’s not like we’re bad if we do that. That is just biologically, it's like a biological imperative. And so in order to soften that inclination to just label somebody as, like, stupid or smart; or a desirable, undesirable; or deplorable and undeplorable; or whatever, we have to practice. You actually have to activate the antithesis of that way of thinking by purposefully seeing the shades of gray. It is a practice, and it's super powerful. 

And so I like that you're interested in that, too, because as facilitators, I gamify this stuff. I try to teach people that in gaming. That one in particular always blows people's domepieces off because they're like, “Oh, my god, I completely thought my boss was a jerk just by definition.” And I'm like, “Did you consider all the other facets of your boss?” And they're like, “No.” I'm like, “Why would you? It’s not a practice you have.”

Douglas: You know, I think that it applies across the spectrum, too, right? A lot of times, especially folks that are brand new to facilitation, they're so curious. Like, how do I deal with difficult people? And that, first of all, is binary thinking. The fact that you’re asking that question means that you’re thinking there’s non-difficult people and difficult people.

Sunni: You’re assuming. Right, yeah. And it’s funny because when I started facilitating, I never asked that question. I wasn’t worried about it. And I think that has to do with conflict avoidance, too. So if people are asking that question, underneath it is a fear that they're going to have to deal with conflict or perceived conflict. And conflict avoidance was not my family strategy. So I usually turn toward it and address it, depending on the depth of the wounding or whatever. But it's like, it's not fearful for me. 

And also, I haven't encountered these “difficult” people. I know there are people that can talk over other people, and there are people that want to ask a lot of questions and sort of can derail some of your activities. I know there are people that try to sidle up to you and make alliances with a facilitator. But I don't think of them as difficult. I think of them as people, just human people.

Douglas: What about the people that are desperately trying to help you?

Sunni: Oh, I love those people. It’s always—that's so, so sweet because it’s like, how do you say “No, thank you. You're going to make it way harder on me if you try to help”? Right? Because when I was a graphic recorder, I used to always carry these big walls, you know? You got to carry these 32-square-foot walls everywhere, and you would not believe how many people tried to help me because I was 5’5” and they’d be like, “She can’t carry that up four flights of stairs.” And I’d be like, “It weighs two pounds. It's not hard.” But I would always just very gently be like, “No. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your interest. But it’ll go smoothly if I just do it because I've done it so many times.” But there are all those types in meetings. 

But to your point, what does it mean if they're difficult? Maybe they just need something, and they need you to be aware of it. And you just look for the need, the underlying need, and see if you can support that or not.

Douglas: You know, I really liked Michael Wilkinson's framing on this. I think in his book—I forgot. It’s so many secrets of facilitation. I can't even remember how many there are. There might be, like, let’s just say, so many secrets of facilitation.

Sunni: They’re secrets?

Douglas: Yeah, well, he's unveiling the secrets of facilitation.

Sunni: What?! The secret teachings?

Douglas: Yeah. It’s amazing. So, his whole thing is dysfunctions. How do you deal with dysfunctions? And so I liked that framing a lot better because there’s all sorts of them, and how do we think about addressing them as they happen? And the individuals aren’t dysfunctional.

Sunni: Right. 

Douglas: Maybe eliciting a dysfunction at that moment.

Sunni: Yeah. Or like a malfunction, yeah.

Douglas: Yeah. 

Sunni: You know? A little breakdown. 

Douglas: A little short circuit, which is an amazing—

Sunni: And I have those, too, you know?

Douglas: I mean, when are they going to come out with, like—so they've done E.T. with Stranger Things. They've done Karate Kid with Cobra Kai. When are they going to come out with the Short Circuit, like the modern Short Circuit?

Sunni: Oh, dude. How can they top the original? It’d be so hard. It’d be impossible. Oh, my god, I’ve got to watch that tonight. It’s Friday night. Thank you for picking my movie.

Douglas: There’s something about Cobra Kai that I was—

Sunni: Dude.

Douglas: —thinking about earlier. But—

Sunni: Oh, my god, yes.

Douglas: —I think it’s just this notion of this good versus bad.

Sunni: Yes.

Douglas: You know, I was thinking about that when we were talking about good versus bad. 

Sunni: Yeah.

Douglas: And it's really interesting to me how the more naive Karate Ki— even though, like, look, let's face it. Cobra Kai is like a series that is not really any kind of profound wisdom. But it's funny that the more naive version of Karate Kid was, like, Danny’s just like, and Miyagi, are just like the source of good.

Sunni: Yes.

Douglas: And now, the more modern portrayal, as they're older, they're much more complex, you know?

Sunni: Right.

Douglas: They’re both doing things that you’re like, why?

Sunni: And that’s the truth about people is that we’re complex. And that’s what people don't want to grapple with, because it requires an awareness of things that can't be tucked into a box really neatly. And the brain, it does not like that. The brain is—I mean, sometimes it's stimulated by it. But ultimately, it needs a summation. And so it's like that's why you have all these characters that are easy to hate, like in Inspector Gadget. What’s the dude, Claw? He doesn't even have a face. He's just the bad dude behind the desk, without a face. And then when you look at comic books or graphic novels, they always go into their backstory. I mean, Black Panther, they nailed it by making those characters so complex. That, to me, felt relatable. So it's, like, so fascinating how that starts from storytelling when you're five, you know? Even Star Wars. But I love Star Wars because, dude, I don’t—

Douglas: Hero’s journey. 

Sunni: Yeah.

Douglas: I mean, you kind of can’t go wrong with the hero’s journey. In fact, that's something Daniel Stillman and I talk about a lot, using that in your workshop design.

Sunni: Mm-hmm. Hm, interesting. Like, taking each person through some transformational experience related to the content?

Douglas: Yeah. Basically, from start to finish, we're going to go through this hero's journey, where we go into the abyss and come out together with the elixir.

Sunni: Oh, that makes me just want to weep, it's so beautiful. And it's like even if you don't choose—because part of the journey, you have to answer the call. So life will probably summon you. But if you don't answer, then you don't go on the journey, you know? And I've always been fascinated by people that are not available for the journey, because it's just not safe. I mean, it's not, by definition. But for me, it's always worth it to step into challenges. And I think that is also a quality of entrepreneurs, is that we are kind of thrilled by freaking ourselves out.

Douglas: Uncertainty, ambiguity.

Sunni: Yes, dude. We’re like those people that like it. We're kind of into it. And over the years, I've had to temper my own instinct to do that. And I know you have too. I mean, I've been a workaholic for a long time, and I'm, like, in recovery. But it's also just because I like being challenged, and I like not knowing everything, because it's such a thrill when you get some new insight or knowledge. It's like, I feel like I'm like the Hulk. I'm like, whoa, I’m growing muscularly. I'm huge. But you could get addicted to that, so it's like every now and then I'm always, like, on a weekend I'm like, girl, you don't need to, like, read 40 sutras this weekend. You can just be an idiot, just be an idiot, you know?

Douglas: Yeah. Just give the brain a little break. Go on a nature bath.

Sunni: Yeah! You know, I told you I’m going to install my hillbilly hot tub. Is that okay to s—? You got—I know. I want—

Douglas: My sauna’s getting installed right as we speak.

Sunni: Oh, dude. That’s amazing. 

Douglas: It’s important. 

Sunni: It is. 

Douglas: Yeah. As you were talking about this, some metaphors were coming up for me, around we're taking people through this risky kind of thing, and there is risk that you're taking. And it reminded me of rapids, right? 

Sunni: Yeah. 

Douglas: So whitewater rafting. And you always hire the guide so that you don't go kill yourself. 

Sunni: Yeah.

Douglas: Facilitation’s like the mental equivalent of the whitewater-rafting guy. 

Sunni: Yeah, yeah.

Douglas: If we're going to go on this risky mental journey, let’s make sure we have a shepherd or that guide to make sure that—we're going to wear helmets, of course, but we're going to make sure that we don't bash our heads on the rocks even if we have helmets on.

Sunni: Well, and that’s why the facilitator is so important, because they have to trust you completely. And I don't mean they have to, meaning you can't conduct a meeting, but for a successful experience, they really need to trust you. And you, the way that I think about it, is that I demonstrate how I want them to be. So if something goes wrong, I will name that and own that, you know? If I don't have the answer to something, I will not pretend that I do. If I want somebody to collaborate with me, then I will invite them to come and collaborate with me, and then mimic that in their group. So it makes you more human in some ways if you're—I mean, there's every kind of facilitator under the sun, so it’s not like there's some gold standard or whatever. That's just my style, is I want them to understand that perfection is not what we're up to. We’re up to being humans. And so—

Douglas: I think that’s authenticity, right there.

Sunni: Yeah. Yeah, that’s true. But I could be being, like, what if I had an inner—because I have an inner perfectionist. I'm actually working with this part of me that is authentically perfectionistic, you know? 

Douglas: Well, I meant the vulnerability you're talking about. Like, if you don't know the answer—

Sunni: Yeah, let’s just name it.

Douglas: —we’re going to talk about it.

Sunni: Yeah. And I've been making so many bloopers. Douglas, you would not believe the bloopers on the United Nations project, because I'm learning as I go. And I told you that. It’s like we're leaping, and we're building our parachute while we’re falling. And the client’s not that aware of it. That is an internal awareness that Jessie and I both have. But for me, it's like, oh, my god—it's like I'm back to being a newbie, like, the stuff I do. Like, the other day, I just flung everyone into breakout rooms, just because I impulsively pushed the fucking button. It was like, what do you do? And then—

Douglas: Well, that’s the world we’re in. 

Sunni: I know. It’s so crazy.

Douglas: It's going to happen, even—I've run the breakout rooms in Zoom daily—

Sunni: Yeah, I bet.

Douglas: —and I still hit things accidentally. And that’s partially because—here’s the thing. I don’t know if you've seen the book, The Design of Everyday Things. 

Sunni: Uh-uh.

Douglas: Oh, man. It's a classic design book. So great.

Sunni: I know. I’ve heard of it. I don’t have it, though.

Douglas: In fact, the doors that are poorly designed are actually named Norman Doors, after the author.

Sunni: Aw.

Douglas: Well, because he points out, don’t blame yourself because the door is poorly designed.

Sunni: Right.

Douglas: If there is a giant—like, you ever gone up to a door that has a giant handle on it?

Sunni: Uh-huh.

Douglas: And you’re supposed to just grab the handle and pull it toward you?

Sunni: Yeah.

Douglas: And you pull it, and then it doesn’t move because you’re supposed to push it?

Sunni: Push it.

Douglas: So on the push side, there needs to be a push plate, and on the pull side, there needs to be a pull handle.

Sunni: Right. Like, you’re not the dope here.

Douglas: Yeah. Exactly. You’re not the dope. He said, never blame yourself for bad design if someone designed it poorly. And so that's what everyone does. Like, my mom always tells me, I don't understand computers. I’m like, well, that means they didn’t design it so that you could understand it.

Sunni: Aww, that’s very nice of you to say that. Because it does make people feel stupid when they can’t do things.

Douglas: Yes. People always say they’re stupid when it’s like, man, someone did a poor job of getting you there.

Sunni: Yeah.

Douglas: And I think Zoom breakout rooms have a lot of room for growth.

Sunni: Yeah. And I think they're working on that, and I know they're making new features and changes to how it—

Douglas: Yeah.

Sunni: Like, they just did the Gallery View. You can shuffle it around.

Douglas: That’s right.

Sunni: That's another thing, too, though. It's like all these new things constantly coming, so there's capabilities you don’t even know you have, and then there's some that fall off. So it's just a constantly changing environment. And so I've just made mistakes left and right, and then I remember what it's like to be a beginner. And thankfully, I have this foundational practice and that confidence about facilitating and making mistakes and just knowing that it's okay. But if I were a beginning facilitator, it would be so stressful. It’d be super stressful to try to step in.

Douglas: Absolutely. And the thing is, you just found—in a way it's almost like fracking—you hit the depths of what's possible. You would become an expert in facilitation. And then this new fissure opened up because of remote, and now there is a new area to play in and a new area to fail in. But at the same time, you weren't building a parachute while falling. You know what I mean? You were in the squirrel suit, already at terminal velocity—

Sunni: I was already in my gear.

Douglas: And as you’re floating down, you’re like, “Oh, let me assemble a parachute, because then I’m going to float down even slower.”

Sunni: That’s right. Yeah, that’s right.

Douglas: So I think there’s something beautiful in that, right, because you can lean on the experience you have to then go into new, uncharted territory.

Sunni: Yes.

Douglas: And that uncertainty, while it’s scary, also leads to a lot of opportunity.

Sunni: Totally. And that's why I love facilitating with expert facilitators, because we all know that. A lot of the stuff, a lot of the terrors and the weird delusions and the distorted ideas you have about the practice when you first go are gone. They're just burnt off by experience. And then, so, it's just, there's a lot of joy for me, because I online I always have a co-facilitator if it's longer than, like, an hour and a half. You know what I mean? And I love trusting the capacity of that person, because it's crazy, because the other day, Jessie and I were like, I could tell she was looking for something in the back end of Zoom, and I could see from her body language that she had no clue where it was. And so I just started talking. I was like, “Here's why we're doing this, and this is the value of it. And I ask the people questions.” And I was just doing it to fill in the gaps so that she could—because I looked at her again. I was like, “Okay, she found it,” and now I'm going to close. But that's like a tango that we have because we work together so often. But it's just, it’s very sweet. It's a very sweet process to have.

Douglas: What you're describing is so much harder in the virtual space, too, because of the signals we have. When we're in the room together—

Sunni: Totally.

Douglas: —and vibing, whether it's Daniel or John or Eli or any of the facilitators I’ve facilitated with quite often, it's like you can feel it almost in the air. Like, we don’t even have to make eye contact necessarily. It's just like, “Oh, I know they're still riffing.” And then, you know, it's almost like when you can tell someone's looking at you. So when they're done looking at you and ready, like, better if you just got the— So I feel like what you were doing is a pro move to be tearing through the tools and trying to revisit the vague signals we do have in virtual.

Sunni: Yeah. It's so funny you're talking about this because Jessie and I were talking about this this morning. When you're asking about my origin story, so part of my early conditioning had to do with hyper vigilance. So I was very aware of what emotional state people were in and what their next move was likely to be. So I'm really attentive to body language. And that, for me, is still very available in Zoom. I mean, I can tell—and Jessie was making fun of me this morning. She was like, “Oh, my god, girl. You name people that they have a question before they have even unmuted themselves or even know they have a question.” But it's because I'm watching their body language. When people are about to ask a question, they do things. They move forward. They lean toward the camera. They kind of, like, gesture in these bizarre ways. Sometimes they stop and start. And so for me, that visual and gestural information is still there. So I’d just be like, “Hey, Frank, it seems like you want to say something.” And then Jessie was just like—she was making fun of me, because she was like, “That is so weird that you—” but I’m so sensitive to it, you know? And I thought that was normal, but then I realized, oh, yeah, no, that's my trauma. Basically, that’s the gift of trauma.

Douglas: You know, that was one of the things that really jumped out to me when you were telling me about internal family systems and giving me the whole low-down there, and I found it really fascinating that things that were previously traumatic or these—I can't remember the Internal Family Systems parlance—but these guards, these managers, that were created because of old wounds are part of yourself. And they can be, they can sometimes be disruptive, but they can also serve a function. They can give you superpowers that other people don't have.

Sunni: Yeah, they do. Absolutely. They’re 100 percent really powerful. And that’s one of mine is I have a manager who's very watchful, and so it is a super power. Now, the problem is I can't turn it off. So, like, if I’m, for example, in mediating between my husband and his mom, it will kind of be exhausting for me because I know that they're going to have an argument 10 minutes before they do, because I can see where the tones are changing and what the language, how the language is changing. I can see them turning, body language turning away from each other. I can see a color of their skin gets redder and redder. But they're not, like you were saying, people are not aware of what's happening internally to them. So they're not yet aware. So for both of them, the energy, the intensity has to be a certain threshold before they even notice. But for me, I notice it way early. And it's exhausting because I'll just be like, “Dudes. I'm going to walk out now. Five, four, three, two. Okay, your mom's pissed.” It’s funny.

But as a facilitator, it's really useful. It's a really useful skill, and I'm grateful for the spontaneous—like, going back to IFS, the spontaneous creation of these skill sets based on—and it’s not always from trauma. It’s just from navigating life, you know? But there is a spontaneous creativity that the body and the mind does to meet whatever circumstances are there. And that's why I have such gratitude for how wise and skillful all of our systems are. So even if a person is “difficult,” I respect that there's some aspect of what they're doing that is a protective function and that that's quite healthy for their system. So I just have a deeper, a kind of an abiding appreciation for malfunctions and for strategies that people have, because I'm like, dude, I am the same way. We're designed the same way. I get it, you know? And I just respect it.

Douglas: Yeah. It's amazing to see what strategies other people use and which ones that we can authentically borrow versus things that maybe I don't want to touch that. Maybe that's not such a good tool for me.

Sunni: Yeah. I wonder how many you can borrow, because there are qualities that other people have that I wish that I had. And I kind of admire that they have them, but I don't personally have them myself. Like, what example?

Douglas: From an internal family systems, I doubt there's much borrowing we can do unless we do some deep, long work. I was thinking more from the surface level of, that's an interesting strategy. Ooh, I like the way that they're asking folks to… Who haven't we heard from next? I think there’s a lot of fun little prompts and questions and things that we can borrow from folks. But it's critical that we do it authentically. If it doesn't feel comfortable in your belly when you're saying it, maybe leave that one at home.

Sunni: Right. Aww, I know. It's so insightful what you're saying about you can't really borrow them, because I always think about coaches and coaching and why would that work in terms of if you're trying to say, like, if somebody hires a coach to be more assertive, it's like, well, you could hack it. You could put on an assertive demeanor. But it wouldn't really be born of your essence. You wouldn't really be the source of it. So I always think it's interesting, the methods that coaches use to attempt to get great things from people. For me, it has to be natural for them. So you just want to unlock their natural strength.

Douglas: I like that word natural. I think that's very similar to how I think about authentic, is of being natural. 

I want to talk about the coaching thing for a second, though. You know, I think part of it is people not taking a robust definition of greatness. They've found some thing that they think is greatness, and then they're glommed onto it, and they're like, teach me how to… I think you were talking about, like, being more confident or whatnot. But what if people more generally said, “I just want to improve. And what does that mean to improve? And let's explore things more openly.” I think that kind of coaching can be really, really interesting, right? Let's see how I can explore where my strengths create weakness. In some of the coaching work I've done, it's about how I figure out what I'm not good at, and then is it something that I can improve on? And if not, if it's truly a deep-seeded weakness, let's delegate that. But let's let that be a part of my self-awareness. Coaching should be about becoming more self-aware.

Sunni: That's right. And unburdening some of the parts of you, because you already have this constellation internally that is very capable, and you and me and everyone we know. But some of it is burdened. And so it has intense emotional charge that hasn't been released or it has belief systems that are old and archaic and need to be discarded. But then once they're unburdened, the energy and the natural expression of that aspect of you is just available, which is crazy because that's what Zen practice is all about too. Zen practice, there's the metaphor they use is like wiping dust from a mirror. So your mirror is already there. You can't change that. It's just who you are. It's part of the natural emergence of an incarnated being, is that you're like a reflection of the universe. And it just has dust on it. So the practice is about getting some of the dust off. 

There was a big reversal of the way I grew up, which was, like, oh, you're born in sin. And I was like, wait. So I'm just fundamentally fucked up? I was like, oh, I can't relate to that. But people do, you know? And so I think the approach of assuming beauty in the person and then just helping them release some of their inherent capacity is just a really benevolent way to approach coaching. But it's not that common.

Douglas: Sunni, it’s been a pleasure chatting with you today. And just want to give you a chance to kind of close out, leave anyone with any final thoughts. Or I know that we've probably got a lot of folks that are really interested in how they can find out more about your work and what you do. So anything they should keep in mind?

Sunni: Well, I was thinking about your audience. They’re mostly facilitators, right? They’re people who are interested in that practice?

Douglas: Yeah. Our listeners are facilitators as well as leaders that are interested in these techniques and how they can improve their meetings and their employee experience. I think, generally, the audience are growing into just a general appreciation of how meetings could be better.

Sunni: Yeah. You're so good at what you do. If people are interested in a lot—I mean, you and I covered so many great topics that I'm like, “Oh, is our time up? It's so sad.” But deepselfdesign.com has some good resources on it. And my other business that is the original venture is sunnibrownink.com. Those are both resources. And you can find me all over the Internet.

Outro: Thanks for joining me for another episode of Control the Room. Don't forget to subscribe to receive updates when new episodes are released. If you want more, head over to our blog, where I post weekly articles and resources about working better together, voltagecontrol.com.

“It's all about how you work with teams, not as a collection of individuals, but as a team, as an organism essentially. And that just completely changed the way that I facilitate and work with teams.”

Sara Nelson is the Senior Director of Design at PepsiCo, where she leads the charge of design thinking programs forward to drive key outcomes.  Sara seeks to uncover the patterns & relationships her teams practice to develop greater strategies and leverage better results. 

In this episode of Control the Room, Sara and I discuss the impact of design thinking for team success in organizations, the collaboration efforts teams must exemplify, the “worthy workshop” intention and expectation, and the ongoing mindset of learning. Listen in to hear how Sara is reinforcing design thinking as the foundation forward in her organization and beyond.

“As leaders, I think it's very important to determine ‘what kind of community are you building?’ ‘What kind of space are you providing?’ Leaders then have to decide ‘what kind of communities are we creating [in the organization], what kind of spaces and what kind of empathy do we have for the people on our team?’” -Elizabeth Maloba

Elizabeth Maloba is the Co-Founder of Nahari, an organization built for creating authentic spaces where collaborative learning and collective decision-making unfold. She understands the critical foundation of building community in the ecosystem of an organization and the level of trust needed to thrive when seeking solutions. Elizabeth ultimately believes that community is more than a place, it’s also an identity and ongoing process. Her work leans into the continuous journey of improving team dynamics and a leader’s need to transform conversations. As an expert facilitator with architectural influence, she challenges organizations’ approaches when conflict arises to instill sustainable, implementable resolutions from direct collaboration.  

In this episode of Control the Room, Elizabeth and I discuss the value of experiential methods, the impact the pandemic had on mental health in the workplace, the necessity and personal meaning behind community in organizations, and the benefits having challenging conversations has on cross cross-sectoral collaboration. Listen in to hear Elizabeth unveil the elements behind creating the community you envision for your organization. She also explores how to identify the root of core challenges your organization faces so that your team can build greater solutions together.  

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Denise Withers about her journey becoming a Story Coach and helping leaders drive change.  She shares the importance of developing your Narrative Intelligence to improve our abilities to learn, solve problems, and make sense of the world.  We then discuss stories' influence on culture, change initiatives, and leadership development.  Listen in to learn more about why we need to think beyond just telling stories and start noticing the problem the story is solving.  

"I think that is one of the best gifts that you can give other people is yes, we're all just chemical biological beings at the beginning of these, and we have all the choices in the world to go somewhere else."- Nathan Hughes

In this episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast, host Douglas Ferguson converses with Nathan Hughes, COO and co-founder of Detroit Labs. Nathan shares his journey from a technology-focused career to embracing facilitation and leadership. He discusses the pivotal role of facilitation in managing teams, especially during crises like the pandemic. Nathan highlights the importance of practice in low-stakes environments to build facilitation skills and emphasizes the need for trust and connection within teams. He also offers advice for technology leaders transitioning into management, stressing the value of redefining success and maintaining personal creative outlets.

“I think it's important to have silent time because each individual has something unique to contribute to the collective of the group. In order to not be influenced by what others are saying or contributing, it's important that they listen to their own thoughts or ideas or opinions or beliefs about whatever it is that is being shared, whatever we're trying to accomplish. So that you can have more variety, possibly more diversity, more genuine personal truth in what you're bringing to the table.” -Paula Rosecky

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Paula Rosecky about her extensive experience working with daughters of immigrants and helping them create a sense of belonging in their personal and professional lives. We discuss how growing up in a community of folks who did not speak English formulated Paula’s approach to facilitating safe spaces for people of multicultural backgrounds. We then take a look at three foundations for how people should approach facilitation. Listen in to hear powerful methods that help people move away from conflict and toward  shared values. 

“But the thing that I hear the most from the students is that they're afraid that they're not going to know how to help. They're going to stand up in front of their peers and say, "I'm here to help you guide you through this, A3 problem solving workout or this kaizen, but at the core of it, I'm really just got this structure that I'm following. I'm afraid I'm going to sound like a robot or I'm going to be like, 'We are in current state. We are in root cause analysis'." Because they're learning the structure, they don't feel natural in it. And that is totally what I went through. But I knew I had that cheat sheet of the structure next to me so I could look down at it. And maybe what my practice was is just to feel more comfortable knowing that I don't know exactly and I've got to kind of follow a guide.” -Lori Serna

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking withLori Serna about her career leading business transformation initiatives at Cal Poly.  She starts with tips on how to facilitate transformation at a large organization.  Later, Lori explores common fears that facilitators share during transformation work.  We then discuss the nuts and bolts of Lean and Kaizen Methodologies. Listen in for insight that spans industries.  

“I think it's really important to understand the difference between safety and trust. So safety is actually a state of our nervous system. It's a neurobiologic process that happens for human beings. Trust on the other hand is how we relate to each other. It's a way to have relationship. So I can trust you maybe to complete your work and say you're going to do what you said you're going to do, and the extend that I trust to you, that's a way to relate to you. Safety is I feel I can have vulnerability with you, I can be vulnerable around you. I don't feel defensive, I don't feel shut down around you. And all of that is actually stemming from a biological process that is happening in my body versus a more emotional or even mental process like extending trust to someone.” - Alla Weinberg

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Alla Weinberg about her career as a UX Designer turned Culture Designer and thought leader.  She starts with reflections on why she became a Culture Designer.  Later, Alla discusses the differences of safety and trust.  We also discuss the relationship between psychological safety and the state of the nervous system.  Listen in for insights into how to build better relationships and connection at work.  

"I take the opportunity to build culture and connection with that team to make them stronger. And that's something that's really rewarding for me—when I leave the process to see after nine months of working with them that this team is much more close, more connected, and trusts each other more.."- Julie Baeb

In this episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast, host Douglas Ferguson speaks with Julie Baeb, a Senior Consultant at Team Works. Julie shares her diverse career journey from advertising to architecture and eventually education, where she developed a STEM enrichment program. They discuss pivotal moments in Julie's facilitation career, including a transformative professional development session and a human-centered design retreat she led for school administrators. Julie emphasizes the importance of icebreakers, observation, and incorporating play and movement into sessions to foster engagement and psychological safety. The episode highlights Julie's commitment to building strong, connected teams through thoughtful facilitation.

"It was a humbling experience because I was the one leading those unproductive meetings or leading the teams astray and just talking about the work and really not having any action items or decisive plan of action afterwards. It was both a humbling experience but also really exciting because I felt like it was that itch that was finally scratched for me. You see it in action and you realize, yep, that's what I'm looking for. That's really cool, I like that.” - Dom Michalec

In this episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast, host Douglas Ferguson talks with Dom Michalec, a product coach at Pathfinder Product. Dom shares his journey into facilitation, emphasizing the importance of effective collaboration within teams. He discusses his experiences implementing liberating structures from the book "Liberating Structures" into his meetings, leading to improved idea generation and decision-making. Dom also highlights the importance of refining facilitation skills and behaviors, not just acquiring tools. The conversation further explores Dom's work at Pathfinder Product, the challenges of designing effective one-hour workshops, and the concept of coaching up. The episode concludes with a discussion on the importance of facilitation as a leadership skill and the need for continuous learning in the field.

“I think that's where my background in behavioral science really helps me because we are very often just standing in our own way. So it’s uncomfortable to try to figure out the right question, because usually we satisfy this desire of instant gratification by just solving the easy question first.”

Myriam Hadnes is on a mission to change the world, one workshop at a time. She is a behavioral economist, podcast host, and facilitator in the Netherlands. She is also the founder of workshops.work, a professional training & coaching company based out of Amsterdam, as well as the host of a podcast called Workshops Work.

I had the pleasure of speaking with Myriam about throwing idea parties, listening to what we don’t want to hear, and the hidden reasons that we have for holding meetings. Listen in to find out why being a facilitator is a lot like being a yoga instructor.

Show Highlights

[6:10] Listening to what we don’t want to hear

[12:27] Hidden reasons for having a meeting

[14:30] Idea parties

[20:27] Permission to interrupt

[29:23] Transition moments in virtual meetings

Links | Resources

Myriam on LinkedIn

workshops.work

Workshops Work Podcast

About the Guest

Myriam Hadnes is a behavioral economist, podcast host, and facilitator in the Netherlands. She is the founder of workshops.work, a professional training & coaching company based out of Amsterdam. She is also the host of a podcast called Workshops Work and a Project Facilitator with the European Investment Bank.

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation agency that helps teams work better together with custom-designed meetings and workshops, both in-person and virtual. Our master facilitators offer trusted guidance and custom coaching to companies who want to transform ineffective meetings, reignite stalled projects, and cut through assumptions. Based in Austin, Voltage Control designs and leads public and private workshops that range from small meetings to large conference-style gatherings. 

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Intro: Welcome to the Control the Room Podcast, a series devoted to the exploration of meeting culture and uncovering cures for the common meeting. Some meetings have tight control, and others are loose. To control the room means achieving outcomes while striking a balance between imposing and removing structure, asserting and distributing power, leaning in and leaning out, all in the service of having a truly magical meeting.

Douglas: Today I'm with Myriam Hadnes, a behavioral economist and host of Workshops Work, and an amazing facilitator. Welcome to the show, Myriam.

Myriam: Thank you for inviting me, Douglas.

Douglas: Absolutely. I've been really excited about having you on the show. And so let's start by hearing just a little bit about how you got your start. It's always fascinating to hear how facilitators found themselves in the role of bringing people together to work better.

Myriam: Yeah. And I think that's the beauty of the profession of facilitators, that it's nothing that you can study at uni or learn at school, so everyone comes with their own background and their own story. And usually we all had these moments where we realized how beautiful it is when we can help a group of people to co-create something or to come to a solution, and then started to become curious about the art of facilitation. And I think for me, it was similar. 

Now, looking back, I think that I've been facilitating for over a decade. So initially I had a career in higher education. I actually left uni only maybe three or four years ago, and I was teaching economics in Vietnam. And now I realized that what I did was I facilitated learning to these students. When I then moved to Luxembourg, I still worked in higher education, but in university strategy, and this was the first time that I really got close to what a workshop was, where we had world cafes with professors and students and lobbyists and ministers in order to design a university strategy. And I got fascinated. And so when I decided that it's time for me to leave the public sector, I moved to Amsterdam. 

It took me another year until I decided that I want to start my own business—no, that I had to start my own business because I was literally unemployable. I had no idea where to start because I was a public servant for my entire life. So I started to throw idea parties. I had a meetup, I invited people to show up with a challenge or a problem, and then at the group, we just brainstormed on solutions. And I was experimenting with different designs and different brainstorming techniques, all based on my background of behavioral economics and how our brain works. And suddenly people started to ask me for advice on how to design and facilitate workshops. Then they started to hire me to facilitate the workshops, and eventually they even paid me money to design workshops that I didn't even have to facilitate. I thought, “Hmm, maybe that's something that I can call my job.” Yeah, that was the very beginning of it.

Douglas: It's really interesting that the tool that you started to lean on or bring to the question around, What should my business, or what should my job be? that tool itself turned into the job. That's really cool.

Myriam: Yeah.

Douglas: So, you know, I want to go back to that moment when you were in the world cafes and first getting exposed to this kind of thinking, this kind of working, these kinds of settings. Like, what did it feel like to experience that?

Myriam: I think for me, it's this excitement that I still have when I am in a room where new ideas emerge. And funny enough, it was before I left my job, I took Simon Sinek’s WHY course, and what came up as my why is to bring people together so that new ways of being and doing can emerge. And back then, I was like, “Ah? What does that mean?” And today it perfectly describes my job. 

But it was back then, already, exactly that, that we, through intervention, through smart design, we could help people who initially didn't have a basis to communicate because they literally didn't understand each other. A social-science professor and a physics professor discussing about a model university, it seemed impossible. And then you put a minister next to it and someone from the finance lobby, impossible to come to common grounds. And then magic happened, and they could find a way to communicate and to actually inspire each other and find meaning and value in each other's perspective. And for me, this is magic, and that's why I really believe that we can change the world one workshop at a time, because it's through this tool that we can help people to communicate in a constructive way. 

Douglas: And the thing that comes to mind for me is it all just comes down to understanding. If we can understand each other, then we can build upon that foundation of understanding.

Myriam: Yes. Yes, totally. And understanding. I think our understanding of understanding very often is too narrow because we're thinking about language barriers. But it's not about the language. It's about, What do we understand when we use certain words?

Douglas: That's right. And mindset, even. 

Myriam: Yes. And how can we actually start listening to what we don't want to hear? I mean, I talked on my podcast to Oscar Trimboli, who mentioned how quick we can speak, how quick we can think—and I don't know the numbers anymore—but we're just not able to listen at the same speed as we can speak and think. So we only hear what we want to hear anyway.

Douglas: Wow. It reminds me of something I heard recently, which is, like, different cultures have different norms for how long a pause is acceptable. What I mean by that, or what I read or understood, was that in some cultures, even a half of a second is long enough to indicate that no one has anything to add. Or in another culture, it might be 10 seconds, no one has anything to add. Now, if you bring those two cultures together, that means the culture that has a snappier response time, the half-a-second response time, they're going to dominate the conversation because the people that are waiting 10 seconds are, you know, the other culture’s going to assume they don't have anything to add.

Myriam: I love that example. And then translate this into the online world, where already every time that there is a pause, we get anxious, so we start asking, “Are you still there? Can you hear me? Hello? Hello? Can you hear me?” 

So the value of silence and thinking pauses, it's a totally different meaning suddenly. So we don't have the cultural differences only anymore, but we also have all the noise that is attached to it.

Douglas: That's right. And I think, you know, one of the things that's not talked about enough in the facilitation space is just the role the facilitator in setting expectations. And sometimes they're called ground rules or operating principles or operating agreements or whatever. But at the end of the day, we're setting expectations, even sharing the purpose before the meeting or setting down ahead of time to make sure people know what we're going to do or kind of what the arc of the event's going to look like. But if we're more intentional about that stuff, then, you know, silence, 10 seconds, that's what we're doing here.

Myriam: Yes, so true. If we know why we're here and what our goals are, then silence doesn't feel as uncomfortable anymore. 

Douglas: Especially if we know it's providing a function and we explain that.

Myriam: Yes. On online meetings, we have to be much more explicit than we used to be in order to take away this uncertainty and this anxiety. And I think regarding the ground rules, I totally agree with you, and I would even say that the thing that is even more neglected than the purpose is the role of participants. I don't know where I read it once, that the question, What is worse than being in a meeting? It’s not being invited to a meeting. And I think it’s hilarious because it describes exactly what happens in so many whatsoever. You have a meeting, you have a purpose, and then, “Oh, yeah, but if we invite him, then maybe we should also invite her because otherwise she complains,” or “If he knows that we're meeting, then he also wants to be there, and we want to avoid a conflict, so let's invite them all.” And then you have these overpopulated meetings, and then all these individuals who, actually, were not supposed to be there, they start with comments like, “Are we again discussing that? Oh, if you had asked me before, I could have told you,” or “We are discussing about that for the last 20 years.” And all of this can be avoided by just not inviting them, but nobody has the guts.

Douglas: Yes. And we often refer to that as, or at least a cousin of that, is something we refer to as meeting FOMO. And there’s kind of a, if you will, that the pendulum can swing, because then on one side you've got a lack of inclusion, and that's a problem. Then, when companies become aware of inclusivity and how important it is, they can swing the pendulum in the other direction, and now everyone's got meeting FOMO, and everyone wants to be in every meeting. And we have to find better ways to scale our time. 

And then, you know, you've got these other issues that you're talking about that are related, which is if we invite the wrong people, then we're not going to have the right meeting, or we're not going to get the right work done.

Myriam: Yeah. And not the right conversations. And I wonder whether—I think this has actually reduced with the working-from-home times we're currently living in, because back in the days in an office, running from one meeting to the other was a perfect excuse not to do the work. “Oh, I'm so busy. I have so many meetings,” constantly complaining, always having an excuse why pushing these kind of uncomfortable tasks away. So it was actually a nice thing, and I think it’s related to cognitive dissonance. You just want to be the person who is engaged with the work, and you don't want to be the person who is actually avoiding work, so you accept all the meetings and have a fantastic excuse. And now with working from home, I think we realized what the real opportunity costs of a meeting are because we can either enjoy family time or we can do the work that we try to avoid or we can have a meeting.

Douglas: Or we can do the work in the meeting. If we truly need to collaborate, let's come together and do the work. I think so many meetings are status updates or informative, and they're not really serving a greater purpose.

Myriam: Yeah. Most meetings are actually emails.

Douglas: Mm-hmm. And if they're not, let's honor that. Let's be explicit of why an email is not going to suffice, because if there's a reason it's not an email and we don't communicate that, then no one understands, and it's not going to live up to its potential.

Myriam: Wonderful. And this is exactly, I think, where the art of facilitation comes in and where facilitation must not necessarily be restricted to an external facilitator you hire—

Douglas: That’s right.

Myriam: —but it's the responsibility of every team leader or manager to facilitate to speak out these hidden reasons why we meet. Maybe we want to meet because it just feels good to be surrounded with some human beings and to share how we are feeling. And even if it's just for a boring status update that could have done by email, yes, but we enjoy wasting our time for half an hour.

Douglas: You know, the BBC did a report, and they said that most dysfunctional meetings were actually a form of therapy. And, you know, it rung really true for me. It's like, man, the people need to come together and connect. They just throw a meeting on the calendar, and they make an excuse to have it. Well, if that's the case, let's honor that purpose. Let’s really unpack it and say, “The real reason that I'm bringing folks together is I want to connect with the team.” Well, then, let's just say it's a team-connection meeting. Don't give some other guys or some other stuff that no one wants to talk about and everyone's going to hate anyway. Let's really say, “Let's just talk about the weather.” And if it's going to build trust and connection on the team, then there's a benefit to it. But let's honor what we're trying to get out of it.

Myriam: Totally. And I think it's so true, and it's not only true for meetings. I think the moment we are just not honest about the purpose, why we're doing something, and we try to hide it, where we lack integrity, something happens to our mind that we are not as calm and focused and empathetic towards each other. So I think if we are then suddenly having a room full of people who are spending time for a reason that they actually rationally know that is not the real reason, I think, obviously, most meetings turn out to be very undelightful, to say the least.

Douglas: So, I want to come back to your idea parties. That sounds fun. How did it work?

Myriam: It was fantastic, actually. I booked a room in the coworking space where I was, and provided beer and sticky notes. So everyone came with a challenge. They had two minutes to pitch their challenge, and it could be whatever, from “I want to build a business” to “I want to stop fighting with my boyfriend.” And then, we had three minutes of brainstorming with everyone who was in the room. Everyone had a block of sticky notes. And we were first brainstorming on questions, because I realized that we are so quick in giving solutions to people and feedback and it's totally unsolicited, and in two minutes we don't understand what the problem is anyway. So what we are lacking is not ideas how to solve it, but we like perspectives on how to look at our problem from a different way. So we would brainstorm for two minutes on questions. So everyone would just shout out a question that comes to their mind, write it on a sticky note, and at the end of the three minutes, the person in the spotlight or hot seat received a bunch of sticky notes to take home and to reflect on. So we did this, and everyone could just jump in the spotlight and share. And in the second round, we, then, did a kind of premortem brainstorm. So they would pitch their goal, “I want to be a millionaire tomorrow.” And then we would do the same thing with, “Okay, what can you do to fail for sure?” And then they would get a bunch of Post-it Notes, how they can fail.

Douglas: I love the lateral-thinking-type stuff, like, how can we fail in liberating structures, TRIZ. Like, what are we doing today that resembles any of these counterproductive behaviors? It's really cool stuff. 

And then also the questioning. I love question storms or just getting folks to focus on thinking about the problem framer and the questioning. My favorite—Einstein has that quote. If I had an hour to solve a problem and my life depended on the solution, I would spend the first 55 minutes determining the proper question to ask. And then once I know the proper question, I could solve the problem in less than five minutes.

Myriam: Yes. And it's so true. It’s so true until today that I think that's where my background in behavioral science really helps me because we are very often just standing in our own way. So it’s uncomfortable to try to figure out the right question, because usually we satisfy this desire of instant gratification by just solving the easy question first. I was sitting in these board meetings in my life in the public sector, where the tiniest problems or challenges got blown up and took 80 percent of the meeting time just to avoid the actual really important topics that were kind of hairy. And I think this is just how our brains work. So the role of a facilitator is, How can we actually help the group to get out of their own way? How can we make it easier to address these hairy problems? And how can we use the way how our brains are wired in order to solve the problems? And a question storm or a premortem are just perfect ways to use our instincts in a kind of efficient way.

Douglas: Absolutely. And, you know, I think back to your statement around, it doesn't have to be external; it can be internal facilitator. And I think the thing that so many folks miss is that you don't have to have facilitator in your title. Anybody who books a meeting as a facilitator, the question is, Are you being intentional about it? Are you doing a good job as a facilitator? Are you just setting a meeting and then showing up and, at best, pointing them an agenda? 

Myriam: And are you curious about the outcome? Are you open for whatever shows up? And I think even as a parent, you can be a facilitator. Educators are facilitators. Maybe a spouse is a facilitator.

Douglas: Yeah. I mean, if you look at the definition of to make easy, I mean, I think anyone can facilitate almost anything, right? Like, how can we support and coach and guide things to their natural resting place?

Myriam: Yeah. And I have many conversations around the question whether it is actually a goal to make things easy, and then we often end up in technicalities. Okay, replace easy by simple, or—

Douglas: Yeah.

Myriam: —replace complexity. But I think that's the essence to make it less frictionous. 

Douglas: Yes, exactly. When I hear to make easy, it's not that we're going to avoid complex or complicated things. It's not that we're going to avoid discomfort. 

Myriam: Yes. 

Douglas: We're just going to make it easy to sit with that discomfort. We're going to move through it. We're going to sit with it. We're going to walk with it. But it would be a lot harder if the facilitator wasn't there, if that guide wasn't with you. And it doesn't mean we're not going to take a—we're going to avoid this strenuous hike. It just means that we're going to have a guide that's going to point out where the rattlesnakes are or help us kind of stay together as a pack.

Myriam: Yeah. And sometimes it's just good to give permission to someone to interrupt us, to be provocative, to be strict with the time to tell us to come back, to ask us the uncomfortable questions. I think it's like a yoga teacher or a gym teacher. You hate them for 59 minutes, right? You just don't want them to be there, because they push you a little further, and they make it really difficult for you. But that's why you're going there, and that's why you love them at the last minute and for the entire week before the next workout.

Douglas: That’s right. I love it.

So let's shift gears a little bit to thinking about the future and sort of, like, what's on the horizon? What are you exploring right now? What risks are you taking? I'm really curious about how people are just embracing the future. I know you have Never Done Before coming up, and I just want to explore some of the future a little bit with you.

Myriam: Yeah. I think the future's really been so abstract and uncertain at the moment, where I think very few people plan longer than two weeks. So I think my future started in March this year, when the first lockdown happened, and I lost, within a week, about 50,000 Euros in expected income. That's a lot of money for a solopreneur. And I realized that I have to shift gears very quickly and to become very creative. 

At the same time, I also realized that from a mindset of desperation and anxiety, I won't be able to actually move forward, because it's like in dating. If someone is desperate, everyone can smell it, and they will never hide it. Nobody will date a desperate girl or a desperate guy. Nobody will hire a desperate entrepreneur. So you have to be in this space where you dance with this uncertainty and where you dance with fear and just embrace everything that comes, trusting that something great will come out of it. 

I think what drove me back then, and it's still what drives me now, is the observation that it's a fantastic opportunity that COVID presents us, despite all the misery, of course, and despite all the health issues and economic implications. But the shift that we really have to reconsider the way how we communicate, how we meet, and how we make use of our time together, I think this is a great opportunity.

And for me personally, it was a learning journey. Before March, I was a pen-and-paper facilitator, and suddenly I became—I didn't even know how to create a breakout room before March, to be very honest. And I was very lucky that I had very early a mentor on MURAL because I had to translate my offline mastermind into a virtual mastermind within a weekend, and it magically worked. And since then, I was still thriving. I was absorbing everything that was coming up. 

And then, luckily, I found encouragement in my network to bring the idea of the Never Done Before Facilitation Festival to the online space. So basically, the idea was, what if we rethought the way how we organize facilitation conferences? What if we do it differently? What if we provided space where we can try things we have never tried before, where we can really find design, explore the new trends in facilitation? And it started with a crazy idea. And then others called me brave. I think I was just naive enough to underestimate the effort and the risk of doing that and starting with such a bold statement. But now it's, yeah, it will happen. We have the Never Done Before Facilitation Festival fully online, 24 hours, around the globe, 30 facilitators from all continents joining. And we do everything differently. And yeah, we dance with the status quo of facilitation.

Douglas: I love it. I love the whole idea of pushing the boundaries. And you had this concept before COVID hit, and then it became even more poignant in the sense that we're doing all these things we've never done before. And it crossed my mind that I wonder how many people had ideas that they wanted to try, that they were planning to do for the Festival, and then they actually had—they were forced to do them because of COVID so they could no longer say they were never been done before.

Myriam: Yes, that’s true. On the other hand, and this is funny, despite the fact that we are, on a daily basis, I think, all of us are doing stuff that we've never done before. 

Douglas: That's right. 

Myriam: Still, most of the stuff that we see online is all of the same, and been there, done that, so many times because I think the first month, or the first six weeks, and this was the beauty of the first wave, was that we had permission to try and to be imperfect and to fail because we're in this boat together. And now, suddenly, second wave, kind of everyone expects us to have figured it out. So we are less prone to take risks—

Douglas: Mm.

Myriam: —maybe less happy to experiment, and I think it’s time to revive that because there’s so many things we can do online that are impossible to do offline. And this is something we haven't explored enough yet. We are so much focusing on how can we translate our offline stuff into the online world, ignoring that maybe offline, it wasn't that grand anyway.

Douglas: Yeah. You know, the thing that comes to mind for me is just also how the tools can guide so much of the way we think, because it's like, oh, I'm assuming I use MURAL, I'm assuming I use Zoom, and then I sit down and look at those tools and think, well, what can I do here? versus just starting first with a concept, with the purpose, and walking around with that for a little bit and thinking, how can I create something and then force the tool? You know, I can bend the tool to my will.

Myriam: And also, there are so many new tools out there. I mean, it's a vegetable garden of mushrooms. I don't know how you say that in English. Anyway, all these tools are emerging.

Douglas: Wait. So it literally translates as a “vegetable garden of mushrooms”? 

Myriam: No. 

Douglas: No, okay. Well, that was a literal translation. I think that would be awesome, and I will start using it.

Myriam: You can start using it anyway. Never used before.

Douglas: Right. Yeah. There you go.

Myriam: Yeah. So for instance, because of Never Done Before, I'm experimenting with a lot of tools, and I found myself in these situations where I just host a workshop or meet up on a new tool. So recently I was on ____(27:43), which I love. So it's totally avatar based. It's perfect for fishbowl or world cafe, but it's very new to facilitators. So there I was, with a room full of professional, expert facilitators, without video and a tool that they didn't know. And I was amazed by the dynamics it took and how quickly, then, we actually also learned to adjust our facilitation side because we have to communicate differently. So that's what I like about your prompt because let's first sit down and think about the purpose and the desired outcome in the group and then find the tool that actually enhances that, because I think for many conversations, we actually don't need a video, and we would have much more focused conversations if we don't have to try to look good all the time.

Douglas: That is true. And, you know, the other thing is while video’s great, it's also pretty exhausting when you compare it to someone being in a meeting room, because in a meeting room, you don't feel like—you could do this, right? Just kind of slump over for a second, lean over on the table, put your head down and just kind of listen for a second. But when the video’s here, no one does that, you know? Like, no one does that, because they're like, oh, I'm framed up. I got to stay on—oh, law of thirds. I got to keep my eyes right here. So it's a whole different dynamic. And I think that's another reason why we have to plan so many breaks and give people opportunities to just check out of that little zone of, I don't know, insanity that we're stuck in all day.

Myriam: Yes. And I think there's one more thing that we neglect tremendously is that we are missing these transition moments that we walked into a meeting room and then our brain knew, okay, new topic, new group, new focus, peace, free headspace around now because we are in a new setting. With Zoom or with our computer, our brain literally thinks that we are still in the same room with still the same thing happening because we haven’t moved. But we stop one meeting, we start the next meeting, and we expect our emotions and our minds and brains to adjust. But we don't give it space. To start meetings, online meetings, with a very clear check in, I think, is more important than ever just to create this transition moment.

Douglas: I’ve been saying that for a while, too. I couldn't agree more, because even an in-person meeting, everyone is just running from meeting to meeting. And even though there was that transition where you're walking is a physical shift, I don't know if it's enough time for people to mentally prepare. So I used to call it the boot-up time. Actually, we give people time to allow their brains to soak up this new topic, because we don't know what they were just—they might have just been on the phone, walking into the next meeting, you know? 

Myriam: Yeah.

Douglas: So, yeah, it's important. 

And the other thing I've noticed personally is since I don't have to drive into town anymore—I had about a 20-, 30-minute drive in the morning and in the evening, and it sort of acted as a transition moment. If you look at complexity theory—I love the cynefin model—how they have in between each domain, there’s that disorder. So you kind of have to go through that transition through to switch domains. And it's sort of like Superman changing into—Clark Kent has to go into the telephone booth to become Superman. He can't just instantly switch, right? And so when I switch between husband Douglas and Voltage Control Douglas, now it's me just walking in and shutting that door, right? Before, it used to be me getting in the car, and I would listen to some music or a podcast or something. I don't have that anymore, you know? I probably should invent something new, whether it's a walk around the block or something that could replace that, because I think that ritual's important. And it's very similar to what you were talking about, these transition moments.

Myriam: And I love the example, actually, where Superman, Clark, and the telephone booth. And I think you're fortunate that you do have the door you can walk through to separate your professional from your private life—

Douglas: Yes.

Myriam: —because I work for some who would use the kitchen table for breakfast in the morning—

Douglas: That’s right.

Myriam: —then it becomes the office, then it becomes the playground, and then it becomes the dinner table. But I read this book, Alter Ego, where he explains that very often we have these items we use, and they trigger something in our personality. So, for instance, Martin Luther King, he actually didn't need glasses, but once he put on his glasses, he had the confidence to speak like he spoke. And for instance, I realized for myself that at one point I could better focus on the person I was talking to in a video conference when I had my microphone in my hand, because this put me into my, okay, I'm a podcaster now, so I'm totally focused on my conversation partner. So what if you could have another pair of glasses so that, okay, when you switch from Voltage Control Douglas to Daddy Douglas, you can just change your pair of glasses or you can put the head on of.

Douglas: That’s right. Yeah, for sure. That’s amazing. I love it.

Well, unfortunately, we have come to the conclusion of our conversation, and it's been so much fun, Myriam. I think we could go on for hours, of course, but here we are. 

And I want to just give you a moment to share a message, a parting message, to our listeners. So what would you like to leave them with?

Myriam: We can change the world one workshop at a time. I truly believe that. And I believe that we don't have to call ourselves “professional facilitators” to do that. But I think if we bring the facilitator’s mindset to the table to make conversations easy, to highlight different perspectives and co-create solutions, I think that the world would really be a better place.

Douglas: Awesome. Well, hopefully, listeners and everyone in our networks will take that to heart because I agree. I think if we can be more intentional, we can change the world. 

So thank you so much for being with me today, Myriam, and hope to talk to you soon and see you at Never Done Before.

Myriam: Thank you, Douglas. Looking forward to seeing you there. Thanks for the conversation. Loved it.

Outro: Thanks for joining me for another episode of Control the Room. Don't forget to subscribe to receive updates when new episodes are released. If you want more, head over to our blog, where I post weekly articles and resources about working better together, voltagecontrol.com.

"We live in such a polarized world right now, at least in the US, and I'm not going to get into that, but I think it is important that we be able to hear each other, really hear each other. Not necessarily agree, but how do we start to move a little bit closer to each other? And probably that's going to have to be through complicated, messy conversations and real listening."

In this episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast, Douglas welcomes Sandra Molinari, a workplace violence prevention specialist, to discuss her journey in facilitation and the importance of creating inclusive and safe spaces. Sandra shares her experiences working with diverse groups and the need to be mindful of cultural blind spots. They also discuss the significance of understanding participants' emotional states and the planning phase in shaping effective facilitation. Sandra emphasizes the importance of involving participants in the design process and the challenge of balancing structure and responsiveness. They conclude by highlighting the importance of listening, healthy disagreement, and the value of facilitation skills in creating effective and inclusive spaces.

“More and more people are starting to recognize that the problems that we're having usually aren't issues of good versus evil.  It's differences of perspective. And if we can take the time to learn these skills and use negotiation as a tool to resolve these conflicts, we could leave these conflicts with stronger relationships and better deals.” -Kwame Christian

Kwame Christian is the Director at the American Negotiation Institute, a consulting firm that focuses entirely on embracing the negotiation skills of entrepreneurs and small-business owners. He believes negotiation is arguably the most important skill set as professionals. As the current host of the ‘Negotiate Anything’ Podcast, Kwame continues the conversation surrounding negotiation as the foundation forward when conflict or uncomfortable conversations arise.  As he empowers others to seek confidence in conflict, Kwame is committed in his mission of leaning into conflict to uncover resolution, while building better relationships through authentic, honest conversations.   

In this episode of Control the Room, Kwame and I discuss breaking down biases in negotiation, the unique approach in negotiation scenarios, strategizing conversations and key recommendations within conflict, and the unique superpower of negotiation in all aspects of life. Listen in to hear how Kwame is encouraging voices to lean into uncomfortable conversations, and how to have effective relationships from the kitchen table to the conference room. The power is in the art of negotiation. 

“ So we've been studying energizing ties for over 20 years now. And so we've found that people in organizations have a range of impacts on each other. At the one extreme are interactions we would call energizing. And I think we all kind of intuitively know the characteristics of an energizer. They help you tackle problems. They are kind of selfless in their willingness to help you. They're optimistic but not pie in the sky optimistic. And they act with honesty and integrity, and thoughtfulness. And so what we've found is that whether you're an energizer is a huge predictor of forwarding momentum through your organization.  So people who score high on these energizing scores by the network around them are much more likely to win with clients. They win in the internal labor market. They get more from people around them. There's been some great research that when you're in the presence of an energizer, you yourself are more creative.” -Dr. Peter Gray

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Peter Gray about his years of experience creating more collaborative organizations through his work studying professional networks.  He shares how the pandemic has impacted workplace networks and influenced innovation.  Later, Peter explains how the size, reach, and quality of a professional's network impacts their career.  We then discuss how the future of work will reward team performance over the individual.   Listen in for more interesting thoughts on the future of work.

“Through my continued research, I realized there's a way you can blend and merge identities. And actually that's your truest form of yourself when you're in the intersections of multiple identities. And that's the hybrid.” Sarabeth Berk

Sarabeth Berk, Chief Creative Disruptor of More Than My Title, is a researcher and innovation strategist demystifying the human experience. She is known for her research on the hybrid professional - people with multiple professional identities who integrate talents together and bring unique value to employers and clients.

I had the pleasure of speaking with Sarabeth about the professional identity crisis that inspired her research on the hybrid professional, the increasing demand for hybrids in the job market, and how you can network to learn someone’s identity rather than their position. Listen in to find out if you might be a hybrid professional.

Show Highlights

[0:59] Sarabeth’s professional identity crisis

[6:25] Jobs of the future will always become commonplace

[16:17] Emerging hybrids vs established hybrids

[23:00] Identity work & being seen

[26:25] Gaining clarity of self through misunderstanding

[31:21] How to network with identity in mind

Links | Resources

Sarabeth on LinkedIn

More Than My Title

Are You a Hybrid Professional? Sarabeth’s TEDx Talk

About the Guest

Sarabeth Berk is a creative disruptor and innovation strategist who demystifies the human experience. As a researcher, she is known for her research on the hybrid professional - people with multiple professional identities who integrate talents together and bring unique value to employers and clients. Sarabeth is currently the Chief Creative Disruptor of More Than My Title, a professional coaching agency in Denver, CO that helps clients discover their truest professional identity.

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation agency that helps teams work better together with custom-designed meetings and workshops, both in-person and virtual. Our master facilitators offer trusted guidance and custom coaching to companies who want to transform ineffective meetings, reignite stalled projects, and cut through assumptions. Based in Austin, Voltage Control designs and leads public and private workshops that range from small meetings to large conference-style gatherings. 

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Intro: Welcome to the Control the Room Podcast, a series devoted to the exploration of meeting culture and uncovering cures for the common meeting. Some meetings have tight control, and others are loose. To control the room means achieving outcomes while striking a balance between imposing and removing structure, asserting and distributing power, leaning in and leaning out, all in the service of having a truly magical meeting.

Douglas: Today I’m with Dr. Sarabeth Berk. Dr. Sarabeth Berk is a hybrid professional, who also researches hybrid professional identity. She’s also the author of More Than My Title. Welcome to the show, Sarabeth. 

Sarabeth: I’m so glad to be here. Thanks, Douglas.

Douglas: So, tell us a little bit about how you got started in this work you do, this notion of hybrid professional identity. Where did that even come from?

Sarabeth: Yeah. It's been a wild journey, and it really started with that age-old question: What do you do? And I was going through my own career-change transition and trying to figure out what my next move was. And when people asked me, “What do you do?” I just struggled. I didn't know who I was. I wanted to be seen as more than my current job, and at that point, I was a teacher, and I was ready to break out. I wanted to transform systems and do more strategy and design and innovation work. And so essentially, I was having a professional-identity crisis. I didn't know who I was. 

And that led me onto this big research journey and interviewing a lot of people and starting to understand, what is this notion of professional identity? We just don't talk about it. And I looked at existing research. But what was fascinating to me the most was when I talked to other people, I thought they had it figured out and that I was the one that was confused, and this was a problem only I experienced. And that was so far from the truth. I quickly realized that people, many people, are more than their job title. That's just this kind of generic way that we give ourselves a frame and a label. And everyone I spoke to was so much more. So it gave me a sense of ease and peace to realize, oh, my gosh. Okay, it's not only me trying to figure out my identity. 

And then it started to open up a lot of new questions and thinking of, why don't we talk about this, and why is it so hidden that people do many things. But beyond that—here was the real kick—I realized I have multiple professional identities. I was an artist and a teacher, and I was becoming a researcher, and I loved design. I probably had a handful of others. But I didn't want to be just one identity at a time. When I took a job, I didn't want to just be hired as the designer or the researcher. I loved using all of those identities together. 

So through my continued research, I realized there's a way you can blend and merge identities. And actually that's your truest form of yourself when you're in the intersections of multiple identities. And that's the hybrid. 

So that's sort of my short story on how I happened upon it. But now that I've unlocked it and I'm sharing it with other people that are trying to figure out how do they get their next job or how do they really explain and articulate what their value is, this notion of the hybrid is just the game changer, and I'm so glad people are liking it.

Douglas: You know, I personally resonate with this a lot because my degree that I obtained in college was entitled multidisciplinary studies because I didn't want to be in school and get four different majors, but I wanted to study a lot of different things. And in fact, I had spent a lot of time in computer-science-type stuff in high school but enjoyed it so much I was just, like, figured that stuff out. I want to go study other stuff. And so I think I personally carved out this journey where there wasn't this one to one between my degree and my job. And I think a lot of folks, that's the classic route. And I felt a little bit different early in that journey. But it seems like it's more and more, we're finding whether you're a product manager or a facilitator or just this podcast is dedicated to, there are so many roles out there where you can't just go and get a degree in that role. And in fact, it takes a very diverse and well-rounded background to make you excel in the role.

So I’m just kind of curious. How much do you think it has to do with these new types of roles that of themselves are not super well-defined. They’re kind of hybrid in nature.

Sarabeth: I love everything you just framed because the truth is you're not alone. A lot of people are not the exact thing they went to school for or got a degree in, and they've changed jobs and accumulated so many talents over time that they are like, yeah, what am I now? And I just wrote a really popular blog post a couple weeks ago that looks at this issue of job descriptions and positions and the way that roles are being named. 

One that really stood out to me is a company called Jump, and they do a ton of design and design-thinking-type work. And they were hiring a person to be an innovation strategist, which is something that resonates with me. And what I loved in the job description is the first thing they wrote is, Are you a hybrid thinker? They call that out. And then below that, they described it as someone who’s one part a humanist, one part technologist, one part anthropologist and filmmaker, entrepreneur. They kind of listed these identity mashups that nailed it for me because companies are starting to realize they need someone that is multidisciplinary or multifaceted. And that's actually the value when you can find a person with this crazy combined skill set and identity set.

Douglas: You know, as someone who's hired a lot of people over the years, I hear that and part of me is reminded of this really, I would say, treacherous territory of carving out this unicorn that maybe doesn't exist, and then you have these unrealistic expectations on finding the person. But I think as the job market or the pool gets more and more sophisticated and people have more and more experience, these unicorns do tend to, they're out there. 

Sarabeth: Yeah.

Douglas: And so I’m just kind of curious of your thoughts on that.

Sarabeth: Yeah. It's that notion that the jobs of the future will eventually become commonplace today. So an example of that would be a social-media manager. We never knew we needed that role 10 years ago. That was really outlandish and exotic. And now it's so normal that multiple people have that in their job description underneath other duties. And I think now we see things like a DevOps manager. Well, that's hybrid. You're doing development and operations. Or even a data scientist. What is that? That's a hybrid title that now is becoming more normalized because we're like, yeah, of course, you have to look at data scientifically with other methods and insights behind that. 

So I think it's that notion that when things are hybrid, I'll use more of a product example for a second. When CamelBak created a backpack that had a water-bottle bladder inside of it, well, what the heck do you call that? That was a new product that combined two existing functions. And they named it CamelBak. 

And that suddenly caught on as the new way to call that object. Well, the same thing goes for people in roles. We don't know what they are until we sort of adopt it and get used to it. So I believe the unicorns are out there. We just don't have enough language to define them.

Douglas: Yeah. It's interesting. It's like, are we tapping into an emergent phenomenon or really just dreaming up something that some really crazy custom-fit jigsaw-puzzle piece that would just help our organization? Or are we tapping into some trends that are just starting to emerge?

Sarabeth: Probably all the above.

Douglas: Yeah. I think the risk is when we overfit that jigsaw puzzle, and it’s like, oh, here's this thing that's like—does that thing even exist? Maybe that’s two different people.

Sarabeth: Yeah. No, and that’s part of the art and the science of this, so thanks for putting that into perspective. We can't say we need someone that is the jack of all trades and an expert in everything, because that's not realistic. 

So my quick framework is that there's three types of professionals: people that have really one type of expertise, I call that singularity. People that have multiple things they do for work, I call that multiplicity. And then the hybrid is somewhere in the middle, where you're blending and combining multiple expertise as well as multiple areas of generalists. And so it’s sort of fuzzy.

And so people say if you're a hybrid, then you're not an expert. And actually, I disagree. I think you're an expert in your own hybridity, because in that emergent space—I love that word you used—and you're in the intersection of multiple identities simultaneously, that's an expertise no one else can replicate. 

And to your point a moment ago of, is it too crazy to ask for someone to be all these things? Yeah. I think it is. So when I work with people one on one or in groups, I say you have to first have a ton of self-awareness and know what are your core professional identities, the two, three, four at the most, that are really the ones you’re best at. They light you up. You want the world to know you for. If you stop doing any of those tomorrow, you'd feel like part of you is missing. Once you land on those two, three, or four, that's what makes your hybridity. That's kind of the ingredients of a mixture. So, yes, you probably can do more than those three or four identities, but that's not going to be the best use of who you are as a hybrid. Where I’m trying to go with this is that there is sort of—a hybrid needs to just be a certain set of components. It can't be everything. Does that make sense?

Douglas: Absolutely. And I think that was the risk I was trying to point out to folks that wanted to tap into this phenomenon is temper your expectations. We can’t just sit there and just conjure up the most perfect combination of skills and experience, because the more things you layer on, the less the probability that someone in the world has accumulated those things and is available and is interested in working with you.

Sarabeth: Yeah, that’s true. And people are fluid and dynamic, and as the workforce is shifting, people are changing industries. And so once you start not just getting new jobs, but you're going from finance into healthcare, into tech, now you have this whole different set of who you are and how do you articulate that value. And I think that's what I'm trying to help people discern is you need to tell a story of the relationships between the different identities you have.

Douglas: I love that. Gosh, that brings up a lot of stuff for me. I was even thinking about internal family systems. But this notion of fluidity is really fantastic. And maybe the advice to hiring managers, and the thing I would probably internalize, is that if we're hiring people that are hybrid or have that hybrid affinity, it means that we can benefit from that fluidity and adaptability because they realize that they have this growth mindset and they are accumulating new skills. And so even though they're not this unicorn, maybe they're missing a few pieces, then they're going to grow into that, and they can adapt and they're not just fixed into this identity of who they are and what they do.

Sarabeth: Absolutely. Identity is a really big spectrum, and we change depending on context and time of our lives. We are not the same individuals that we were 10 years ago, you and I. We have different tastes and interests and hobbies and probably even friends. So why would we ever think that our career stays stagnant too?

Douglas: Mm. Also, just kind of tying this back to meetings and facilitation and also your comment around people saying that hybrids aren't experts, I would say that my interpretation of that would be hybrids are experts at gluing things together, because you may have—and in fact, a hybrid could be a deep expert in two things, and they're gluing together a bunch of other things. But even if they're not super-deep expertise in whatever is the topic at hand, their deep expertise might be somewhere else, even if they have the ability to span these different spectrums, it means they're going to be able to glue together the deep knowledge that others on the team have, and that is super powerful. And I would argue that hybrids make great facilitators because our role is to glue together, it's to understand enough to say, hey, what you're saying is contradicting this other person, even though you seem to be agreeing. And that takes some hybridity. You have to understand enough of each of these things and have enough experience to be able to call on that knowledge and apply it in a way that everyone can kind of come to the table and understand it.

Sarabeth: Yeah. That's really a great insight and observation. I agree that hybrids definitely have one foot in different worlds, and so they get to be these master translators, which isn't the route of facilitation to make it easier. And so you're the person transferring knowledge between disciplines or industries or sectors or departments or whatever to help them make it easier of, What are these languages and ideas and concepts we're doing? How do they fit together?

Douglas: Yeah, one thing I also say is one of the superpowers of a facilitator is really quick synthesis, to be able to take a bunch of inputs in, synthesize them, make some meaning of it, and then kind of spit it back out for the group to react to. And so there’s a balance between totally mirroring what you're hearing but also synthesizing some things to help spur and move things ahead. And I think a lot of, I would say, varied and diverse background and perspective can really make that synthesis easier, because it's not about necessarily how fast your brain is processing stuff. I mean, sure, there’s an element of that. But if you have different models and contexts that you can draw on, it definitely reduces the need for your brain to have to go into hyperdrive.

Sarabeth: Yeah. I love what you're saying. That was one of the findings I had in looking at hybrids, and where does hybridity show up? And hybrids are masters at pattern recognition and meeting making. And you just said that in your own words.

Douglas: That's fantastic. You know, I'd written down complexity earlier, for a different reason. And I think you could kind of map this stuff onto a Cynefin framework even, based on a few things I've heard you speaking about today already. Early on, before hybrid, we have a very simple view of the world. It's like I learn to do something, and I do it. And then as I learn more and more difficult things and get more and more specialized, moving into the complicated domain, that hybrids really thrive in this complex domain, where things are adapting and changing, and we have to respond to them. And we have that fluidity that we can lean on so that if something new comes at us, we don't just get knocked off. We kind of just, we remain in balance.

Sarabeth: Yeah, definitely. I think hybrids are very adaptable, and they tinker and invent and hack, and they see the standard process, and they know how to kind of tweak it or make it better or change it completely.

Douglas: The other fascinating thing about the Cynefin model is that in between the domains, because a lot of people look at it and think it's just a two by two. The lines between the domains is a domain in and of itself, so this disorder that you move through when you transition. And you were talking about these hybrids transitioning, and I think whenever we transition domains, there's some disorder. We have to, you know, like, Clark Kent can't just turn into Superman. He has to go into the phone booth and emerge as Superman. 

And I think that that in itself, I mean, there's two things I think of that might be interesting to unpack from your work, which was, do you see that there is a transition, an uncomfortable transition, as people start to learn? As they're moving from a simple, like, “I know this one thing. I'm starting to learn, build this other skill,” it’s like maybe there's some identity crisis starting to happen.

Sarabeth: No. I was completely agreeing. I have a table I created in the book I wrote, More Than My Title, where I talk about emerging hybrids versus established hybrids, because there is sort of this developmental thing that's happening as you're feeling the push and pull and tension of having multiple identities, but not understanding the relationship between them, how they fit together, and how to build that as the way you're working in the world. You're sort of stuck in this awkward phase. And there's a few different indicators I have of that. And one of it is this, I call it, crossover. It's like sometimes you know how to tie your identities together and you're in that zone of genius, and other times you don't. It's like you only are one or the other, and you haven't found that natural cadence or just natural ability to let it be simultaneous. 

And one thing that just my kind of artsy head that inspired some of my research findings was I was looking at paintings by Rene Magritte, and he is one of the ultimate surrealists. And he had one painting where it's a sandy beach, it's the seashore, and there’s a doorway, just the frame of a door, and the door is open. And so you can walk through that doorway and get to the water or you can stay on the beach. It's sort of that moment of this invisible gateway between the two worlds. And that's my visual mental metaphor of us trying to figure out, How do we find these spaces of transition between the different parts of ourselves?

Douglas: It's amazing. As you were sharing some of that I’m starting to formalize some of, like you were helping me articulate where my head was going previously, which is I think there's two modes, maybe. One is as you're first exploring the land of hybridity, it's almost like going through puberty because it's like, wait a second. This is a real awkward transition. 

Sarabeth: Yeah.

Douglas: And as you start to become more hybrid, so you're developing different facets of yourself, when you're in that zone, I would imagine early on that fluidity isn't quite so fluid. Being able to shift between those modes may be more awkward. I'm actually taking this hat off, putting it on the table, and putting this other hat on, and it's a little clunky. I have to maybe reboot a little bit. But then more and more you do it, the more skilled you are of just blending between the two to where it's almost like a dance. Like, you don't even notice that you're shifting between these modes.

Sarabeth: Yeah. That's exactly right. The other tool that I brought into my work is this idea of developing your consciousness. Hybrids don't realize they're even hybrids. They have to learn that construct and realize, oh, my gosh, this might apply to me. And even once you learn the term, you still might not understand how it looks for you and what makes you a hybrid. 

Oftentimes when I speak to people that they're excited and this resonates, and they go, “Of course, I'm a hybrid. I do marketing and sales, and I'm a gardener on the side. And I love to do graphics and computer animation,” but they don't understand how those things fit together or how they're using synergies and a marriage of all that. Then there's still that emerging phase. That's more multiplicity, in my mind, when you are just putting one hat on, taking it off, putting the next hat on. And the hybrid is literally wearing all the hats at once and has tentacles of skills. 

Let me give a clear, concrete picture of my hybridity in action. So actually, when I'm facilitating a meeting and I start to do either some visual recording, graphic facilitation, or in the moment ask people to take on roleplaying, to play out different personas of stakeholders that we're trying to imagine how would they experience this thing, those are moments when I notice big shifts in the room, and other people don't run meetings that way. That's me and my hybridity because the researcher is turning on, the designer’s turning on, the educator’s turning on, in that moment to get people to do things they don't normally do to make sense of information we're struggling with.

So that’s kind of how detailed I push people to see themselves in these moments of their hybridity, to reveal it to themselves.

Douglas: You know, that reminds me of one of the thoughts that I had when we first met and I was starting to wrap my head around your work, and it was that this is in a way, is a really practical, pragmatic approach to personal branding.

Sarabeth: Definitely. It has that connection, which I think is just one of the outcomes of doing the work. So I didn’t even really do my full hybrid introduction, but essentially I've designed my own title for my hybridity, and I call myself a creative disruptor because to me that encapsulates who I am in the intersections. And it's a unique name. It's not too out there or trendy, but it feels authentic and accurate, and it takes some practice and exploration to find that right combination of words. 

And what my “creative disruptor” title represents is that I'm comprised of being an artist, designer, educator, and researcher. Those are my four primary, or core, identities that mean the most and I have to use pretty frequently in the work I do. If I don't, I get bored or I stop doing that job, or other things happen, more disengaged.

So that’s really kind of the building blocks of this work is having self-awareness of your identities, and then asking yourself, Who are you in those intersections, and what do you call yourself in that bullseye of your intersections? That's your hybrid title, which then becomes a beautiful personal brand that all of your history and work experience connects to.

Douglas: Yeah. I love this notion of authenticity in its purest sense, right? 

Sarabeth: Mm-hmm.

Douglas: A lot of times we hear that word thrown around, be authentic, etc., but I truly believe that if we're going to be great facilitators, we have to be authentic. And that means being true to ourselves and showing up in that way. And I love that your work is a tool for folks to do that self-reflection and think about, well, what are these elements that are critical? And I think in a way, it's not all that dissimilar than thinking about values as well. But I think that values is such an overused and diluted term that a lot of times people, especially when you're at the company and it's the things that are just hanging on the walls, and no one really lives by them. So I love it as a framework that helps us get to that same need, but it's not a bunch of handwaving stuff.

Sarabeth: Yeah. And one other thing I’ll add to that would be I think it's about being seen, which ultimately is about belonging, right? And we know that's one of the steps to have safety and strong teams and trust is you have to feel like you belong and people understand who you are. And when we just walk around and know each other on teams or companies as you're the director of programs, you're the head of A.I., you do sales, I don't really know who you are, and I actually don't really understand your job. And I understand that we need a hierarchy of formal job titles, so I'm not pushing against disrupting and changing all that. But what I am saying and what I've started doing with more teams during workshops and companies is let's do some of this identity work to reveal your professional identity so your colleagues and peers see you the way that you want to be seen and know you for what you’re best at. And that’s more than just your StrengthsFinders or Myers-Briggs profile, which are other talents and skills. Your identity is something that just defines who you are and overarches your passion, your purpose, your skills, everything.

Douglas: I'm kind of getting into my nerd brain now on the facilitation, but I’m starting to visualize. It could be—we've been building a lot of MURAL templates for various activities and a lot of the things we would do in real life. And one of them—you mentioned StrengthsFinder—one of them is based on StrengthsFinders, and there was another one based on the books everyone's reading right now. So how do we, coming together as a team, visually kind of exciting each other around possibility or around vision, around the makeup or composition of the team—I think it'd be really fascinating to do some of this exploration as a team. What you're talking about is deeply introspective, and I'm sure you coach a lot of folks and help draw that stuff out—I can imagine teams helping each other draw it out because they see things in their teammates that their teammates might not see in themselves or aren't recognizing. They're a little blind to it because it's things they do but don't perceive or don't say about themselves.

Sarabeth: I just have a huge smile on my face right now. You couldn't have said it better. I think doing this work in collaboration with your teammates is one of the best ways because they mirror back to you how they see you and help you realize the truer parts of yourself that maybe you've never given a name to or wouldn't have called out. Like you said, they perceive things and they can reflect it back. Yeah, I think that's really powerful.

Douglas: I think one of the thoughts I was having, too, is one of my favorite ways to dispel a conflict is something I call roles and coffee, and as two people were kind of at loggerheads or whatever. And I don't feel like—usually you can tell as a leader, is something bad going on here, or they just misunderstanding each other? Ninety percent of the time, it's just some silly misunderstanding stuff. And so I’ll just tell them to schedule a coffee. And there are no rules besides one simple rule that they can't talk about work or the task that they're doing. They can't discuss the project or anything. They can only discuss what they think each other does from a role standpoint. “I want you to sit down and tell me what your role is. I'm going tell you what your role is, and you're going to tell me what my role is. And you have to sit and listen.” 

Sarabeth: Yeah.

Douglas: And it can be very eye-opening to hear how people misunderstand what you do and what you bring to the table.

Sarabeth: Completely. That is the beginning. I have a workbook that complements my book, and the first section is, What do other people say you do? Talk to your colleagues. How does your partner or family members describe what you do? How does a child, how does a neighbor? Trying these different scenarios to understand how people interpret and perceive you and what words they're using. And if they're totally vague or uncertain, that's also evidence as well. And it's not that everyone has to be super crystal clear, because it is really hard to define all the different things we do. But if people are that fuzzy and if you're not telling a story that's articulating the way you want to show up in the world, then other people won't get it either. So that's kind of why I think this is a really big deal of how you describe your hybrid identity and find language that you believe in will start to cascade to your boss, to clients, to everyone. 

And the more I've talked about being a hybrid, I've noticed people start to introduce me that way, or they've walked up—I had a boss one time say, “Hey, Sarabeth. Are you able to use enough of your identities in this job? How is that going for you?” And that blew me away because when would you ever expect a manager or a boss to say that and to make sure you're feeling supported and seen? And I think the more we talk about this explicitly, the more we feel, wow, this is really what's been missing from our lives.

Douglas: That’s amazing. You know, and it's like I think that to me the fascinating piece is absolutely others are going to help you identify things that you may not realize that you might want to kind of craft into that narrative. They may actually also point out things that they're perceiving that are incorrect or that maybe we're presenting things in a way that it's confusing or people are reading into it in ways that we don't want. We can repair those things as well.

Sarabeth: Oh, definitely. Yeah. If people are reflecting back to you—like, I used to get called the design-thinking guru a lot, and it was kind of just a fun, easy way for people to reference me. But that kind of drove me crazy because that's not who I saw myself as. Like, yes, I know design thinking, but that wasn't the way I wanted to show up in a room or be introduced. So, yeah, that was good feedback where I needed to tailor and tweak how I introduced myself and how I talked about myself. And then it started to shift that introduction when other people said it.

Douglas: Absolutely. I had the same thing happen to me when I first started Voltage Control, because I was doing a little bit of fractional CTO work, as well as facilitating and running design sprints. And I would tell people that, right? I would tell them that hybrid nature of, like, I’m a fractional CTO, and I do design sprints. 

It is fascinating to me how people would always remember one or the other. And so I’d either get introduced as the CTO guy or the design-sprint guy. And as I was doing less and less CTO work, it was even more frustrating because people would still introduce me as this fractional CTO. And it's like, “Well, I’m not really doing that as much anymore.” It's a struggle, and it's real.

Sarabeth: Yeah. And it just takes practice and experimentation. I tell people to keep iterating. It took me a while to even figure out my hybrid title. And if you don't have one, if that's daunting, because going into these intersections, I will say right now, is the hardest work. People get really lit up, and they're like, “Oh my gosh, you just want me to draw this Venn diagram and look at my overlapping identities. I love it. That's genius.” And then they start scratching their heads and go, “Oh, my god, I don't know how to do that.” But if you just want a starting point, even just saying, “Hey, I'm a hybrid. I work at the intersections of, in my case, being an artist, designer, researcher, educator,” that is a nice gateway, and that's a really simple way to start reinforcing this stuff. But I agree. It takes a while for people to actually, like, hold onto it and remember it.

Douglas: So, I want to come back to something you mentioned in passing earlier as this kind of a setup to kind of explaining this work. And it really struck me, it brought me back to a place that I haven't been in a while, which is bumping into people in a networking environment or maybe at a party, and you just met them. You didn't get a really good intro. And the easiest, the most mundane question is, So what do you do?

Sarabeth: Every time. Yep.

Douglas: Yeah. And so, you know, I always kind of feel awkward with that question, but it was the thing I always wanted to ask, but I felt like an idiot asking it. And so now that we've advanced, well, (a) it's kind of difficult to even find ourselves in networking situations these days, but I guess in your work, have you found more interesting questions, better ways to probe into this hybridity and to learn more about people rather than, “So what do you do?”

Sarabeth: Oh, definitely. I mean, a quick one that's not as much identity related is just, What do you love to do? Adding that love part shifts it more into hobbies and extracurricular activities. But if you're trying to stay on a professional note and especially hybrid stuff, I'd say, “What do you call yourself?” You know, that right away, I ask people, “What is your identity?” or just “What are your different professional identities?,” which right away assumes people are more than one thing. Some of those might need a little bit more contextualization to help people not feel affronted or thrown too far off. You might say, “Hey, I realize we're more than our job titles. Tell me about the different identities you use in your work.” And shifting to an identity conversation could be interesting. So those are maybe the top three that just came out of my mouth.

Douglas: Yeah. As you were kind of sharing some of those, it reminded me my friend has a great prompt that I’ve totally stolen. And it's, What's lighting you up these days?

Sarabeth: Yeah. I love that.

Douglas: I find that people always have some really fun answers to that question.

So speaking of questions, questions are kind of, I think, the facilitator’s Swiss Army knife. They get us out of a lot of trouble. They can kind of move us forward, etc.. So apart from just the breaking-the-ice, “I just met you” questions, what are some of the questions that you think are provocative or helpful when we're in meetings or just helping people work better together?

Sarabeth: Yeah. One of the top things I notice when I'm working with groups and we're problem solving is all the assumptions that they're holding onto that they don't hear and kind of those limited beliefs. So probably a few of my top questions I ask the most is, How do you know? You know, just asking them if they're like, “Oh, we don't need to research that. We already talked to those people and they said blank.” And it's like, well, how do you know they really feel that way? Or what do you see that makes you say that? Getting really objective and moving away from their interpretations and subjective feelings so that they have to back it with actual fact and have a reality check and kind of question where did this story in their head start from? 

And probably the last one, it's sort of a loose tool, and I adjust this in so many ways. I could use it for an interview script or facilitation and brainstorming. But these four words, I think, are my driving, just ideas when I'm doing facilitating. And they are needs, beliefs, pain points, and desires. I'm constantly returning back to those to understand, What does a user need? What are they believing? What are their pain points and desires? And I just found if we can answer those, we can reveal the next best set of insights to get us moving forward.

Douglas: I think that's also true for the participants, too. Are we pointing that inward to what's going on inside the hearts and minds of the folks in the room as well as who this room is focused on solutioning for. 

Sarabeth: Mm-hmm.

Douglas: So I love that, yeah.

Excellent. Well, Sarabeth, it's been a pleasure chatting with you today. And I'm sure if everyone enjoyed this as much as I did, then they're eager to find out where they can learn more and maybe also think about—I'd love to hear what you might be interested in leaving the audience with.

Sarabeth: Ah, so many good nuggets. Douglas, you and I just have the best synergy. We could have talked forever. Let's see. So essentially the work I'm doing, go to my website, morethanmytitle.com. I just wrote a book with the same name called More Than My Title: The Power of Hybrid Professionals in a Workforce of Experts and Generalists, because essentially I think this is a movement of a hidden segment of the workforce, and I'm really trying to build awareness and give people practical tools to both help them with their own personal identity, but also to realize the workforce is made up of more than just experts and generalists. And then you can find my workbook, and I have online courses. So my goal is just to help people activate and learn about themselves and their identity. 

And my takeaway for your audience today is my favorite question, which is, Who are you in the intersections of your multiple professional identities? And when you can start to answer that question, you are going to see a whole new side and really just version of who you are in the world.

Douglas: Fantastic. Sarabeth, it's been a pleasure chatting with you. And I'm really excited to see how the listeners take this work to heart and what they find as they start to explore new identities. So thanks so much for being on the show, and we'll talk again soon.

Sarabeth: I hope so, Douglas. I'd love to come back anytime. Just keep me on your radar. You're great. This is wonderful. Thank you.

Outro: Thanks for joining me for another episode of Control the Room. Don't forget to subscribe to receive updates when new episodes are released. If you want more, head over to our blog, where I post weekly articles and resources about working better together, voltagecontrol.com.

“We have two really strong capacities [as human beings]. One is about discipline, finishing things and staying aligned. ...We'll call that the discipline muscle.  The other muscle is the initiative muscle. That's where we're going out on a limb, we're taking a risk, we're being creative, we're curious about what might happen if.” -Diana Joseph

Diana Joseph is the Founder of the Corporate Accelerator Forum, an organization that builds a space for key relationships, stories, & tools in corporate entities to thrive in innovation.  Diana's vast “mission-driven” projects creates an entrepreneurial perspective for both individuals and organizations. Diana empowers others to embrace the failure when innovation projects are unsuccessful and learning from the “why.” Her work encourages organizations to foster connections and innovate cohesively. As a Co-Host of the Ecosystem Show on Clubhouse, she continues to inspire organizations’  approaches in self-determination, creative confidence, and innovation culture alike.  

In this episode of Control the Room, Diana and I discuss the need for open dialogue between startup & corporate organizations, the unique space Diana curates to collectively come together through specified expertise, a look inside the world of anthropology and its benefits of implementation in the workplace, an understanding of design-based research thinking, and the reminder of an entrepreneurial approach in facilitation. Listen in to hear Diana reveal her passion in design-based research and the explorative efforts both organizations can gain in changing the conversation and working together.  

“I think we're going to be as vulnerable as we're comfortable or as vulnerable as we're aware. To be a leader today, I think to be able to be vulnerable, to model vulnerability, we still have to be aware of our own stories, and what are we comfortable sharing of our own stories? What are we comfortable sharing of all parts of ourselves? In writing, my book, one of the things that came through loud and clear, is it's one thing for me to be vulnerable with my employees, right? But one place that I found a lot of men expressed fear in the interviews I conducted, was the fear of being vulnerable in front of other men, regardless of if it's at work or outside of the workplace.” -Sean Harvey

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Sean Harvey about his 20+years of experience working in personal, organizational, and societal transformation as a Purpose, Talent, and Org Development consultant.  He explains how the healing work of men serves as a critical lever and catalyst for building compassionate bridges across society.  We then discuss heart transformation and how to use it to understand yourself.  Listen in for inspiration on how to use compassion to unlock the healing power of men.

“The only assumptions that can hurt our products are the ones we don't know about. I lean into the assumptions, I say, "Let's get them all out on the table.” Let's align around them, because until we get all of you guys aligned, we're not going to be able to change your minds anyway.”

Tamara Adlin is a UX expert and consultant who helps startups, and companies who want to behave more like startups, create products their customers love. She is also the co-author of the Persona Lifecycle book series and has created a method she calls Alignment Personas.

In this episode of Control the Room, I talk with Tamara about shared narratives, alignment and personas. Listen in to hear how exploring assumptions and allowing data to inform decision making creates a unified team and a clear perspective.

"I've read a lot into behavioral psychology, and one thing that is appreciated across the board regardless of the therapist or psychologist is that you change the environment, you change the behavior."

John Fitch

I'm Douglas Ferguson, and I'm on a mission to help people everywhere have better meetings. There's clear evidence that poorly run meetings not only waste time, but they also squander a lot of money. A recent report by Doodle found that $541 billion is lost globally every year on common meeting mistakes–and that's just the report from the County for Direct Labor Costs. This staggering amount translates into opportunity costs we incur from ineffective meetings.

I'm excited to have John Fitch with me today! John is the CPO at Voltage Control and the author of Time Off. John is an author, business model generator, and prototype creator. He enjoys deep, intentional work that leads to the facilitation of new ideas and business models.

John is a big fan of compartmentalization, especially with work colleagues, projects, and phases of projects. He stresses the importance of reflection and the design lens of conversation. John believes that compartmentalizing takes conversation design, "which I admit, I'm not a pro at, but I know that to compartmentalize we need to talk about it, have a language about it. I think it's fascinating," he says. 

With COVID-19 and many of us working from home, John stresses the importance of having clearly compartmentalized spaces. "Now, if work is in your home and you haven't developed a rest ethic and have yours defined, and you're intentional about it, now that work is at home, it can be surrounding you at all times."

Learning how to take time off can be an investment in many ways. It can help create new ideas and turn activities into meditation time, to name a few. Time off can also bring you awareness of what you do in a space of rest so that you can be intentional about how you spend time away from work. Find out why you should use breaks in your projects or meetings, how our days can be dictated by our emotional behaviors, and how you can have boot-up and boot-down time for your creative process.

Show Highlights

[01:45] Time Off–the book and what it means to have a Rest Ethic.

[02:22] Compartmentalizing work matters.

[04:25] Doing specific tasks in your own space can help with compartmentalization.

[07:29] Use your transition time commuting as a slow interstitial time-off switch.

[08:05] Superhuman and it’s relevance to complexity theory.

[08:54] Driving and music can be a form of meditation.

[10:57] Incubation and the process of stepping away from the thing you are trying to achieve leads to more success. 

[13:02] Use exercise to think through challenges–John’s interview with Terry Rudolph, a Quantum Physicist.

[18:20] Build intentional time into your schedule for rest during meetings or projects.

[21:31] Emotional triggers, both positive and negative, lead to a biased judgment of work.

[26:15] Utilizing rest time requires a transition period and acclimation periods.

[30:27] How John upgraded his business through time off and a real-life example from his book.

[32:15] Intentionally plan time off and give others a heads up that you are planning to be disconnected.

[34:17] When you lead a room, read others and be prepared to facilitate.

[38:24] John’s recommendations to leaders for facilitating better meetings.

[42:25] How you should reframe activities in your own mind.

Links and Resources

John Fitch

Time Off 

Time Off Podcast

About the Guest

John Fitch is a maker who loves tinkering and building prototypes of products and businesses. “When new ideas aren't successful, it’s usually because a team was overconfident about how well customers and users would understand the idea and how much they would perceive its value.” He specializes in enabling teams to receive customer and user reactions before making any expensive commitments. This process involves a lot of play, unlearning, and empathy.

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation agency that helps teams work better together with custom-designed meetings and workshops, both in-person and virtual. Our master facilitators offer trusted guidance and custom coaching to companies who want to transform ineffective meetings, reignite stalled projects, and cut through assumptions. Based in Austin, Voltage Control designs and leads public and private workshops that range from small meetings to large conference-style gatherings. 

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Intro: Welcome to the Control the Room Podcast, a series devoted to the exploration of meeting culture and uncovering cures for the common meeting. Some meetings have tight control, and others are loose. To control the room means achieving outcomes while striking a balance between imposing and removing structure, asserting and distributing power, leaning in and leaning out, all in the service of having a truly magical meeting.

Douglas: I’m super excited to have John Fitch on the show this week. And John Fitch is the chief product officer at Voltage Control and the author of Time Off. Welcome to the show, John.

John: Douglas, it's an honor to be on a podcast episode with you, deep in conversation. And it's also one of those classic funny lines where they're like, “Hey, it's been a while,” whereas right before recording this, you and I were prototyping some cool stuff. So it’s cool, then, to transition from the intensity, deep work of prototyping to a more casual conversation.

Douglas: In a way, this casual conversation comes off as a bit of time off compared to the deep, intentional work that's required for facilitation.

John: Well said. And you said a word there that is really important. You said intentional. And in the book Time Off and the whole point of view I have is we talk about it's important to have a work ethic, and we just proved that, prototyping some awesome software. We did it with an intentional work ethic. And having an intentional rest ethic is what the book Time Off is all about. So you’re right. And time off can be active, which is another, I think, eye opener for our readers. It doesn't just mean vegging out on the couch, which is totally fine, that's a form of time off, but sometimes stopping what you're doing and just having an awesome conversation with a colleague, a friend. In this case, you're both of those. So, yeah. Good point.

Douglas: Excellent. And I want to get to your background a little bit. But before we do, I love this notion of being able to be friends and colleagues at the same time. And I think there is this notion of compartmentalization that's so important to be able to do those things. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this notion of compartmentalization.

John: I think it’s fantastic to compartmentalize lots of things. And especially with those you work with, but it's important to compartmentalize the projects, and what phase is it in. I think we've talked many times before in our facilitation coaching that it's important to look at your meeting culture through seasons. That's a compartmentalization, right? You've decided, hey, right now we're in a season of production, or we're in a season of reflection or redesign or growth. And all of those have been intentionally compartmentalized. And so I think across relationships, that's really important. But also within your company culture, within yourself, you've got to compartmentalize parts of yourself. Like, I can't necessarily bring the version of me that's going out hunting and hiking to every prototyping session I have. And so I think that mindfulness and that internal check in, both for yourself but also across your team, is just, you know, that's the beauty of reflection and intention. So I think it's cool to just simply talk about it.

And I know you've had Daniel Stillman on the podcast and so cool to just think about the design lens of conversation. And to your point, compartmentalizing things, I think takes a lot of amazing conversation design that I know I'm not a pro at. But I know that to compartmentalize, we've got to talk about it, we have to have a language about it. So I think it's fascinating.

Douglas: You know, it's interesting you bring up this notion of hunting or fishing, and I think exercise can play a role there, these things that have a space associated with them. You go to do those things in that space tend to help with compartmentalization because you can think of that it serves a purpose.

Right at the beginning of COVID, I read some really fascinating writings by psychologists that were saying to really think about how you redesign your space and the purpose each room has for you so that you can still compartmentalize your life, even though you're confined to a much smaller, let's say, footprint.

John: Yeah. It’s fascinating. I've been thinking about now, since Time Off is out, you have friends and readers who reach out, and they’re like, “Hey, have you thought about what you're writing next?” And in regard to the whole Time Off sort of franchise, if I'm to use that word, I think a natural follow up would be time on and intentional time on. And then a book title that I'm the most excited about regarding what you just said would be a title something like Time Away. I, too, have read a lot into behavioral psychology, and one thing that is pretty much appreciated across the board, regardless of the therapist or psychologist, is you change the environment, you change the behavior. And that's so fascinating. And, yeah, right now we're all limited. You and I can't both just pack our bags and go to Ireland. Well, I mean, I guess we could, but probably not smart at the moment. But just by changing things up in your own house.

I remember—remind me of Linda's last name, who spoke at Control the Room.

Douglas: Linda Baker.

John: Yeah. Linda Baker. She gave a presentation on feng shui, and I think that's under that lens of energy design, space design. And it is amazing if you just rearrange things. And I know I've been on so many Zoom calls with you. You’ve really transformed your office, I assume for the better. But all of those intentional environment changes have, I would assume, changed your behavior. Would you say so?

Douglas: Absolutely. You know, I’ve created stations, if you will, within my house, so that each spot’s almost like traveling to a new—it's like a replica of what I had previously. I've got the space where I'm doing workshops. I got the space where I’m boxing and doing Pilates. I got the space where I'm eating. I got the space where I'm relaxing, and I got the place where I'm sleeping. I try to keep those responsibilities delineated and compartmentalized so I can be very intentional about what I'm going to do and how I spend that time.

John: And that’s really important. I think that's one thing I've been thinking a lot about with the pandemic. In some ways, it was a big, forced time off for some people, depending on their context. But also, I didn't really think about this because it'd been so long since I had the lifestyle of, oh, I go to a workplace. I work. I leave. I go home. A lot of people that going home, that interstitial time, was sort of a slow time-off switch. Like, they were going home, and when they went home, they were able to leave work at the office and home is home, and that's a clear compartmentalization. Whereas now if work is in your home and you haven't developed, as we call it, a rest ethic and have yours defined and you're intentional about it, now that work’s at home, it could just be surrounding you at all times.

Douglas: Yeah. It’s not only the compartmentalization you're describing, it's the transition. And, you know, in complexity theory, whenever we're talking about complexity theory, one of the examples I love to give is Superman. Superman doesn't turn from Clark Kent into Superman instantaneously. He goes into the phone booth and changes. And likewise, when we're moving from simple to complicated or complex, we can't just transition from those domains instantaneously. We have to go through some transformation and recall that disorder.

And I know for a fact I used to—I live out in the country, and my drive home, I always planned it so that I would never be stuck, because I hate sitting still in traffic, but I love driving. And just the motion, my thoughts form and dissolve and reform. And it's a great way for me to, I think, it's almost like active meditation. We've talked about this before, John.

John: I’m curious. Is there a particular playlist or something you would listen to in that transition time?

Douglas: You know, it's interesting, John. You know I have very eclectic music tastes, and so I have about, gosh, I don’t even know what the total is. I think it’s somewhere in the realm of, like, 500,000 songs on a USB thumb drive. And it’s amazing because it used to be that back in the day, it was like a wall full of CDs. I still have a whole shelfful of albums, but now I have this thumb drive that's like the size of a—I mean, it's so tiny. It's maybe two centimeters or something. It’s the tiniest little thumb drive. And I just put it on random. And the nice thing about listening to a really eclectic database of music on random, I can always skip something if I'm not in the mood for it. But it's the weird serendipities of things that flow from one thing to another. And I might be on a thread of thought, and then it totally changes my gears because it intercepts where I'm at and re-shifts me. So I kind of like being taken on a journey that I'm not having to plan, that I'm not having to put thought into, and I just flow with it.

John: I like it. It’s like the audio version of Google's Feeling Lucky feature. I mean, that's a cool environment change. I mean, it's your audio’s mind space. You're just allowing serendipity. And I actually think that has a lot of beautiful correlation to our book Time Off, which a lot of times people who haven't talked to me or read the book when I just surface level tell them, “Yeah, I wrote this book,” they’re like, “Oh, that’s cool. You wrote a book on vacations,” and I’m like, “No, no, no, no. It’s our goal, my coauthor’s and I’s goal, is to really expand the connotation of time off, not just being vacation from work.” It’s micropractices. And why it’s important is we looked at the creative process, and there’s four phases of it. And one of the phases that’s absolutely essential is called incubation, and it’s when you’re not actively working on the thing you’re trying to achieve. It’s by stepping away from it, by doing something else. Again, that could be something very passive. It could be something very active, like an intense workout. The point is, is your subconscious and other parts of your brain are able to work in the background in those moments.

And so what I like about your random music selection is that is a form of incubation that—well, you’re driving, so you can’t really actively code or do  any of your workshop facilitation work, but you're able to be an open channel. And so those sounds come through, and who knows what memories that ignites, and one idea can flow into the next. And I know a type A personality like me really benefited from changing my perspective of time off of this, like, I'm not working to, like, no, it's actually a very productive practice for an investment in better ideas or an investment to an epiphany, perhaps. So I like that you’re just opening it up. You don't know what's going to come.

Douglas: Yes. It's really fantastic. And one of my other favorite active-meditation techniques is actually just going to the gym and just having my sauna time, getting into a groove of—there’s a Pilates routine that I kind of developed out of my greatest hits, the things I really, really like. There’s a spine corrector and some different exercises on the Cadillac that I've done so many times that I don’t even have to think about what's next. I just go in there and I flow through it. I'll do that as a warmup, as a way of stretching and getting ready to do something more intense. And an hour will just evaporate. I'm not thinking about much of anything. And I found that time to be very valuable, and I miss it terribly because it's really hard to recreate that at home.

John: It's really cool that you brought up exercise. That's one of the many deep dives in our book Time Off, and it reminds me of—we interviewed this quantum physicist named Terry Rudolph. And exercise is a really big part of his rest ethic, and he gave us—each person we interview, we ask them to give very practical advice for the reader to immediately try. And his was—and you could replace the word run with any kind of movement. But he essentially said, look, run hard to empty your mind, or jog slowly to think through a problem without distractions. And so he essentially told us, if you need to clear your mind, go really hard. So that could be your high-intensity workouts. And challenge yourself so that you're not able to think about anything, basically. And you just kind of get lost on focusing on not dying in that high-intensity activity. So it's, in a way, you’re unplugged for a while and getting back to the body.

Or as, if you want to use a workout as productivity, you could set some clear intentions or questions to contemplate in advance, and then use that time off exercising to really give you a macro view. So that could be, like, as you've told me, in the sauna or in Pilates, where it is active, you're definitely working out, but there's enough space in there for you to dream up, have a macro view. And so I think that's a cool oscillation of intention.

And also, that analogy could be made to a work project. There's times where, like today, actually, you and I were prototyping. You can only do that for so long, just like you can only sprint for so long on the Treadmill, or you can only stay in the really intense, infrared sauna for so long. And so it's just being aware of that oscillation and intentional about it to reap the benefits and not just choosing and obsessing over one.

Douglas: That’s right. And I think that it's another thing to think about how you might hijack some of the systems to do things that you might need, because you, not to overuse the word hijacking, but imagine your emotions. Your brain chemistry is hijacking you at the moment. Well, then going for a really long run, in a way, you're kind of depriving yourself of oxygen, because everything's just devoted to surviving that intensity. Whatever weird conversation you just had with someone that didn't sit well, that's going to all be history. And so then you'll be in a much better headspace to analyze it, synthesize it, and address it. So that's interesting. Time off can be both micro and macro, I guess.

John: I’m curious. That's a good point. So I'm just, in real time, I know you have a ton of experience in music and especially in synthesizers and other instruments. I mean, you've helped produce music. And if you think about it, time off is essential in music, too. Time off between certain notes gives you a rhythm. Time off from one section of the orchestra is important to evoke a certain emotion. I'm curious in, like, synthesizer space, is time off an important part of your whole setup? I’m just totally randomly curious about that.

Douglas: Yeah. It's no different than other music, right? You’ve got micro timing, which, to bring it back to the micro and macro, you’ve got these moments with inside the melody itself, where literally—and if we want to really break it back down to the voltages, the voltage is either on or it's off. If the voltage was on the entire time, nothing would happen, because the system would just be totally primed. You'd imagine it would just be complete stress, right? So in order to have anything interesting happen, it needs to oscillate up and down. So the voltage goes positive and it goes negative. Or if it's d.c., it goes just positive and zero. And that's where you get these really cool modulations, where really stuff interesting happens.

But I think if you were going to really bring it back to work and life and habits and how we keep our brains healthy, we also need to think about the frequency of isolation, because I would argue that even if you're having too much rest and the contact switch alone could be exhausting, just switching between turn it on and off. So I think that the frequency is important to having it too fast, the duration too short, and then switch is too fast, it's probably equally harmful.

John: Hm. You and I have been conductors of a lot of rooms. It's been a great honor we’re able to learn so much when we do that. I'm curious before I go in, because I've contemplated it for a few years, putting the book together, but in your own master facilitation, whether it's a large-group gathering or a small team or a design sprint, Douglas, how have you used time off as a function as a facilitator? Anything come to mind?

Douglas: Well, yeah. I mean, there's the cardinal rule of the 90-minute break. We don't want to go over 90 minutes before we have breaks, and making sure that that's written into the agenda and being very strict about seeing to that. Also, just time away from the material can be really powerful, whether that's by design—we build something into the agenda for us to kind of take a tour around through something different. It's exactly the reason why you might do improv games or icebreakers and these types of things, where we intentionally want to move the energy or the patterns through the room. And it's definitely an amazing tool when things get uncomfortable, and it's unproductively uncomfortable, and we can call a break. We can use that time to let people disperse and then come back together at a time. It's similar to going on that sprint, letting the emotions discharge so that we can come back together when people are a little less emotional or a little less spun up.

John: Yeah. It reminds me when I was in film school, we took this class, and I was really focused on being a producer, which was kind of the business mind, the coordinator of the project. But in order to do that, you had to take editing, and you had to take directing. And I remember being really fascinated by, in our directing class, one of the biggest tips we heard from renowned filmmakers was if you're the director, I think on average, it was like two or three months was the minimum recommended from when your filming ended, so all of your production of the live action footage, etc. Two to three months between that and when you sat down the first time with your editor, because you needed to be detached from the material, because there may have been a particular shot, a particular line, a particular character, that in that time of production you were just really excited about personally and in detaching from a while allowed their advice. And I definitely, when I was producing documentaries, benefited from this advice, that by the time you had been so detached, you were able to really reflect and kind of come to the material new again and work with the editor from the perspective, more of a new viewer versus someone who's been deep in the weeds for a long time.

Douglas: Yeah, that’s interesting. I feel like the weeds could cause a couple of problems. If I were to bring it back to design sprints, it's a reason that we encourage people not to do any synthesis at the end of day five. So if you've done interviews all day, you're going to be suffering from recency bias from the most recent interview. Just go clear your head over the weekend and come back. Take that time off to let it all just dissipate, disassociate from whatever happened. It was much more effective.

And John, it makes me wonder. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this. Do you think there could be things around emotional triggers that are—I mean, maybe that scene was filmed on your birthday. People were giving you lots of Happy Birthdays and encouragement; maybe you got a cool gift from someone. Or maybe you found out your grandmother was sick the day this other scene was filmed. And so could you have these associations with them that are subconscious, where you might judge them in ways that aren’t accurate?

John: Oh, that's certainly the reason you need a team, because of that complexity of influences. And I actually wish that I would have known how much that my film-school experience would have prepared me to work in software and design. I had no idea. I think I would have been much more intentional as a student because we had these—and I mean, you and I do them all the time, working together, and we help organizations get comfortable with doing them. We just have a different language for it—but in film school, we call them design crits, “crits” short for critique. And you would show up with your work in progress, a.k.a. a prototype; and you would sit there with about eight to nine others; show the 90 seconds, four-minute clip, whatever the professor allowed for. I mean, you had to get good at taking feedback, and through repetition, it was not easy first. But by the time I graduated, you look at feedback as this beautiful gift. And it's because of yes, there's certain things that I'm attached to. And how many John Fitch's are there in the world? I mean, I'm sure there's some people with a similar psychographic as me, but that's not going to get me an award-winning film.

And so just exposing yourself to more and more feedback early on, I think, humbles you and gets you out of your own head with all of those influences, because someone will resonate with something that you might think is not that exciting. Whereas you can see a pattern of something your deep—like to your points earlier, something around, oh, my birthday happened, and I had a super-good day, and we shot that one scene, and that scene's got to be in the film. And unless I get checked by a team or early viewers, early testers, that could be a poor decision on the quality of the story.

And so, we are in the art of helping people, I think, quickly adapt, thanks to the gift of feedback.

Douglas: It's amazing, right? It’s interesting. Even if your time off isn't giving you the answers, like we can rely on the perception of others, the perspective of others. And I want to come back to this notion of, I feel like a lot of this is borne out of kind of tech burnout and getting in these situations where people are overworked and they need to kind of step away from things so they can do better work. It's almost like a rejuvenation and a recovery, to use the athlete metaphor. If you train all the time, you'll just wear yourself out. There has to be time for recovery. So that's why people do the sauna, the ice bath, the compression sleeves. Take a day off. Take a week off. Heal.

And I've been thinking a bit lately about this notion of flipping the switch from active to inactive or time on to time off. And I've personally found it a bit difficult just to completely flip that switch into the other mode, and it’s because we kind of prime our nervous system and our mind and our habitual states, the things that we kind of get acclimated to, and how we spend our days are based off of behaviors. And as we were kind of going through this transition for moving more and more things, pretty much going to a 100 percent virtual facilitation company versus a 15, 20 percent virtual company, it required a lot of my work and attention, and I poured myself into it, partly to support the community, but also to make sure the company stay alive and survive this transition. And now that I've got a lot of things in place and I'm confident about where we are, I’ve started to pull back. And as I've done so, it's been great to have some of that time off and to be able to shut off and think about other things and come back to it.

The other thing I've noticed is that it's a continuum. You know, if you look at a thermometer, if you put a thermometer into boiling water and you turn the stove off, it's going to take a while for that thermometer to get back down. You can't just go straight into the other mode. And so I'm just curious if you thought much about these, that it's around these kind of this rest time and even making use of it might require some transition. It's not just like, let's just go do it. Okay, I'm doing it. It's like I need to almost, like, train myself to be able to function in that mode properly.

John: You threw the perfect slow-motion softball pitch to me right now. This is the whole thing that the backstory that led to Time Off. To answer this is, again, we put together these two words. I had not come across it before. Not going to be—I can't say I invented it. They're just two separate words that we put together. But rest ethic. So work ethic for me is like someone with a solid work ethic, they're not just carelessly driving themselves for no reason. They put high intention. They're good at prioritization, decision making, etc. They follow up with what they're going to do. Intentional work ethic, to your point, yes, to get the most out of rest, it's going to take some intention. And so those things you're feeling are real.

And I learned, and I'm going to simplify it, and I think each person has to figure out their own transition art. But when I was at Animal Ventures, a firm that did prototyping with a lot of supply chain automation work, my two business partners were the ones that opened me up to this whole concept of time off. And our model of time on, time off by no means is copy, paste at other cultures. But based on how we worked and what we did, we were able to establish a model where everyone worked for three months. So think about a quarter. And then after that quarter, you had a month mini sabbatical, and we had to stagger those.

And a lot of people hear that and they're like, “Oh, that sounds amazing.” Well, we had to really design that out and practice it. And before that month off, there was a lot of preparation, not just like, “Hey, I'm going to go away for a month.” You decentralized your functions as a person. Each person has responsibilities and things they handle, and those would be documented, and in a way, diversified across a few other people that would be still in their time-on mode. Or you would think about ways to automate it more. So we were all—again, it was this intentional thing you would do. It was like the time-off prep so that it wasn't like all of a sudden massive switch off and then shit falls through the cracks and things aren't operationalized. So a lot of intention.

And then also—so then you’d go have your time off, and if you did that prep right—you really were off, and you didn't have to freak out during your time off because your functions were not only handed over, they were going to be upgraded because that was one of the points, is new people get a hold of those functions, and they're able to poke holes in it and be like, “Oh, that's not that efficient. We could do better.” Or a new technology comes out in your month that you're off, and the people upgrade the operations.

And then, let's say I would come back from that that mini sabbatical. I had a re-acclimation period, sort of like altitude adjustment, where it wasn’t just like I came back on Monday, and it’s boom, full blow. The last one I had done at the firm when I was still there was a week-long acclimation period where I’m not necessarily back to work. I’m understanding what has changed. That was one category. The second of work was I was giving in sharing my epiphanies on how my position, my department, my product ownership, whatever it was, I mean, that time off gave me a lot of epiphanies. And so I would share, “Hey, here's how I think it could be better,” and we would workshop that. And then the people that handled my functions while I was gone would then report to me saying, “Hey, we ran your functions while you were away, and we upgraded it.” And so I had to now—I had literally an upgraded playbook for the position. And so all of us were upgrading the business-culture software through this time off. And so the ramp up and the ramp down is often never practiced. And that's important.

And I think a beautiful analogy is you're an athlete and you warm up, then you do—well, in that case, the hardcore work, in this case, the hard core time off—and then you have a cool down, and you re-acclimate. And that's really important to do.

One of the micro tips in the book that I'll give you an example of a mistake I made where I didn't take my own advice. We interviewed Tiffany Shlain. She came up with this concept called the Tech Shabbat, where, for a 24-hour period, you don't interact with any screens. And it's a really powerful exercise, especially given that we work in screens a lot. I find that it slows down time. In a way, I get bored on purpose, and it's just really fun what you end up filling that time with. And what's funny is the first time I did one, I did not take that advice of prep and then acclimate. And it was awesome. I was like, time slowed down. I’m enjoying no screen time for a weekend. And when I get back to my phone on Sunday, my iPad, and I open it up, I have, like, 25 missed calls and all these texts, and it was from my mom and her friends because my mom is so used to chatting with me on the weekends. She was like, “All his devices are off. All his phones off.” She thought I got kidnapped and was freaking out. And then that stressed me out. And so I could have easily prepped her. And that’s just a little micro example of, great, you have some intentional time off planned; make sure to prepare for it. And then, also, integrate yourself in a meaningful way back, because it is hard to go from a very rested rhythm and state and then suddenly just drop it in. It’s like you call it boot-up time in a lot of the meeting culture at work you do, Douglas. And I think there's boot-up time, but there's also—what would it be, boot down?— to also get prepared again to take time off.

Douglas: Yeah. You had to open, explore, and close, right?

John: Yeah. So that's something that can be applied on the micro and macro as well. And it's helpful, too, because in the time off, there's not only the gift of recharging and building your enthusiasm back up, but you're going to have—again, it's an important part of the creative process. It's called incubation. And then following incubation is illumination. That's the aha. That's the moment of clarity. That's like you've zoomed out peregrine-falcon-level view. You're looking at things differently because you're detached for once. And that's when we unlearn and rethink things.

Douglas: Yeah, I love that. And it also reminds me of not only do we need to prepare ourselves, we also need to prepare others. So setting those expectations and making sure that others aren't going to be negatively impacted by—because if it's completely selfish, then it's not going to necessarily serve us when we go to do our deep work again, because we usually have to collaborate with others or others are going to be the benefactors of our work. And so I think it's really awesome that the book shows this path where people can be really, really intentional about their rest ethic, so how they help inform others, how they help prepare others. I think it's really wise.

John: Yeah. And it's important, too, for leaders to—and I know you and I've talked about, especially in the art of facilitation, read the room and be aware. For I think leaders to feel more confident, I mean, just based on some of the early readers who’ve been reaching out to me that are in a position of leadership and influence, their biggest question after being won over on the importance of time off is, “Okay, now I need to work with my team to figure out what our more-detailed time-off strategies and operations are.” And that's awesome, and I'm glad that they're thinking about that, and they'll work through it, because until that intention and design is put forward, the time off and rest ethic in a business context is generally just a short little clause in vacation policy. Whereas it can be so much more manageable, I think, and smart, if it's a daily, a weekly, a monthly, it's not just this, like, “Oh, yeah, you decide when you take time off, and here's our policy.” To actually embrace it and to workshop it and to figure it out for the context of that business is something we hope leaders think about after they read it, because it expands that definition that time off is not just vacation and mai tais on a beach. I mean, our sub chapters are things like sleep, solitude, exercise, reflexion, play, which you and I talk a lot about. And then also our relationship to technology.

And the last thing I'll say that I'd be curious to get your ping-pong, back and forth. I think the most mind-blowing thing that we uncovered in the opening section, which is called “Time Off Throughout History,” it’s like 100,000-foot view of humanity’s relationship to work and leisure, and we found we kind of knocked the dust off of this brilliant thought series from Aristotle, who talked about this concept of noble leisure. And actually, the word school, which goes back to, I think it was pronounced schola or scala, meant leisure. They looked at it as what we did in our leisure time, which nowadays we would call extracurricular or volunteer or play time or hobby time, that was the most respected thing humans did. It was noble because in those moments we would think to ourselves what’s possible, what’s a better society, we would share, we care about the environment. Literally, because of noble leisure, they invented mathematics and philosophy, these things that propel humanity forward.

And why I got excited about that is he said that one day all of culture would have the opportunity to revisit noble leisure because we would eventually automate the mundane. And you and I think a lot about artificial intelligence and how that’s impacting the future of work. And we’re helping companies think about rescaling, retooling their teams to be more focused on these human skills, these soft skills, however you want to call them. But I just get excited because I agree that Aristotle, his advice of noble leisure, we're at a time in human history where that's not so much of a pipe dream anymore. You could argue that once, who knows, a decade, two decades from now, with automation—and you would know more than I on the accuracy—that real humanness, that noble leisure is kind of what’s left for us, the more that mundane is not only better suited for machines, but I think that helps humans get back to those quality moments.

Douglas: So, John, when we’re thinking about how facilitators can make use of these concepts and maybe help teams perform better or work better together, what comes to mind? What recommendations do you have to have better meetings or to just be better facilitators, in light of what you've kind of uncovered in the book Time Off?

John: So, I mentioned some of the sub chapters that are in there, of the components that make up a rest ethic, things like reflection, solitude, play. And I think that's really important to incorporate those types of practices into your workshop, your meeting, because in all of those activities that I just mentioned, you see people in a lot of joy.

And for example, you and I have been in some workshops, and when I was working on the reflection chapter in the book, there was this question that is in there around, when was the last time you felt like a kid, or what activity do you do that you feel the most childlike while you're doing it? And when you ask that in a professional setting, people’s answers, they light up, and there’s that inner child that’s still in there. And that question—let’s say, we’re brought in. It’s a serious problem, and we've got to figure it out, and we're there to facilitate it and workshop it. And it's definitely serious, and we've got to do the work, and we're going to have an awesome workshop. We're going to produce a prototype. We're going to produce an artifact. We're going to drive outcomes. Pretty serious stuff. But if you sprinkle in these moments of what I'll call time off from the deep work, from the actual serious thing, it actually improves the overall process because, again, it goes down to that creative process. You're leaving some time for incubation and illumination, because then after that, you have verification, which is all about, okay, actually doing the work to see if that idea is worth a damn.

And in the first one—I mentioned it was four phases—is preparation, which is also deep work as you prepare to do things again. And so if you implement time-off practices into any of your workshops, look at them as investments and illumination and incubation for your participants. And also, it helps them rebuild enthusiasm if you go for a walk or you just say, “Hey, we take breaks seriously,” because I've been around facilitators that I don't know what their reasons are, but they don't incorporate meaningful breaks and rest within the workshop. And you can tell when it's 3:00 p.m., 4:00 p.m., people are just like, they're done. They're checked out. It's like forcing someone to just continue hill sprints over and over. And so that would be the first thing is ask yourself what moments in our workshop could benefit from incubation and illumination? And have fun with it, and whatever vocabulary you choose to use, I think your participants are going to appreciate that time off, because I think when we think about workshops, meetings, seminars, conferences, the art of gathering, that can be tiring. And I think with facilitators that incorporate more rest, people can be less intimidated by it all. So that'd be the first thing, Douglas.

The second thing is facilitators—and you and I are facilitators. We do a lot of facilitation, and we know people that do more facilitation than we do. It is hard, and it is a lot of energy that is used to hold space and pay attention and document and solve problems and deal with conflict. It is no joke. And you could look at time off as time management, but I've been thinking about it more and more as energy management. And so I think to do your best work as a facilitator, you also deserve those intentional moments of time off to not only make sure you don't get overworked and overwhelmed and burned out, but you'll benefit, too. Maybe by stepping away for once, you'll completely rethink one of your workshop modules; or you'll reflect on some feedback that someone gave you, and you'll level up, or you'll come up with an entirely new idea for a workshop or an activity.

But I just wanted to make sure to say that, I mean, today you and I were wrapping up a design sprint and then doing prototyping, and there is definitely a part of me that's like, “Yeah, I still have a few more things to do. But my internal compass is also talking to me, saying ‘That was intense, and you can now go into the garden and cook a nice meal and rest and be back at it tomorrow.’”

So those are two things I would think about, and try to reframe it in your mind from a place of starting to eliminate this idea that you're not effective if you're not working. I think that's something society is unlearning—I hope our book helps—is this whole concept of visible busyness. Just because you’re active doesn’t mean you’re effective. Whereas, I think a lot of people assume it’s true. And once you reframe and see rest as productive because it helps with recharge and illumination and incubation, you’ll start taking it as serious as your time on.

Douglas: It's also, I believe, in the serendipity of if you can manage to do those things when you most need them, I think it'd be much more effective because it's timely. And it's sort of like eating before you. You're just ravenously hungry. And I found the co-facilitator has been an interesting way to have those micro moments where I can have some time off. I know how to be 100 percent on the entire workshop, and I found that to be, those workshops are much less draining.

John: I’m so glad you remixed it to that. I've been thinking a lot about that lately, Douglas. You and I have co-facilitated a lot, and I think that’s a really important message for the future of work as facilitation becomes more and more relevant, especially now in virtual work, too. Just having multiple facilitators not only provides that time off but you have a skill set that gives you strengths in certain activities. Let's say there's a meeting narrative. Let's just go with the open, explore, close. There's parts of your personality where you're really great at the explore and the close, and maybe I'm just, like, a master of the open. And if we're aligned as a team of facilitators, each one of us can be in our zone of genius more. And not only does it allow us to have these interstitial moments of “in the zone” and then kind of backing off and relaxing, it allows us to just do our best work. And I know what’s been really cool when both of us are co-facilitating: in my time off from facilitating, I'm observing you, which I'm able to give you feedback that is through the lens of a facilitator. Likewise, you've done the same for me. And so if you’ve been going it alone as a facilitator, hey, hats off to you. Deep respect. But try out co-facilitating.

Douglas: I think we’re at time, John, so I’m going to close it here and say thanks so much for being here today. It’s been so fantastic riffing with you. It's always fun chatting with you. And I think we should let the listeners know how they can find you and the facilitation work you do as well as where can they find the book?

John: Totally. So if you want to talk about meeting culture and prototyping and the maker movement and all things running awesome meetings that are magical, voltagecontrol.com. You'll find me on there somewhere. And in terms of the book Time Off, if you just type it in Amazon or Google, I’m sure it’ll come up. Timeoffbook.com will send you to Amazon as well.

And other than that, Douglas, it's been an honor to not only talk about this, but to stay in touch as friends and colleagues throughout many years now. So, I'm pumped you're doing a podcast, you ask really good questions, and I'm honored to be on the guest list.

Douglas: Thanks for joining. And we'll definitely encourage everyone to get a copy of Time Off because it's really fantastic and it's super timely.

John: Thank you.

Outro: Thanks for joining me for another episode of Control the Room. Don't forget to subscribe to receive updates when new episodes are released. If you want more, head over to our blog, where I post weekly articles and resources about working better together, voltagecontrol.com.

“When we follow our curiosity...and take small steps towards that curiosity, that's how we create possibilities for ourselves and for others.” -Van Lai-DuMone

In this episode of the Control the Room Podcast, Van Lai-DuMone and I unpack the creative footprint that inspired her to dedicate her life’s work at worksmART to uncover creativity in every organization. Van shares her observations on the creativity disconnect she’s seen unfold in the corporate workforce and how teams can reignite collective creativity in their work. She highlights her go-to creativity strategies that demonstrate trying a “different” approach in the workplace and the significance in discovering creative artifacts for teams. Van and I discuss the transformative impact a strong collaboration flow has on teams when working on projects/ideas as well as when coordinating virtual and in-person events and meetings. We specifically speak to how organizations must prioritize connection in both the virtual & physical landscapes to make a successful shift to hybrid work, and the need for intentionality in daily workplace interactions in order to provide space for real connection in organizations. Listen in to hear Van’s perspective on her journey to living a life in creativity and rediscovering your organization’s creative niche.    

In this podcast episode, Douglas welcomes Tim Creasy, the Chief Innovation Officer at Prosci, to discuss the field of change management. Tim shares his origin story and how he became interested in understanding human systems and implementing change at scale. They discuss the intersection of economics and political science, the concept of systems thinking, and the potential impact of generative AI on creativity. They also highlight the importance of understanding both macroeconomics and microeconomics in driving change within organizations. They touch on complexity theory, the shift to a more humanistic approach in business, and the role of connections in combating ambiguity and uncertainty. They discuss the challenges of synthesizing information, the importance of addressing the human side of change, and the role of leaders in creating an environment of psychological safety. They also explore the individual-level implications of change and the concept of skill-oriented organizations. Tim shares his perspective on the future of humanizing change and the importance of balancing productivity and human-centricity in organizations.

“Seeing patterns in the data, that's where framing insights matter. And the massive amount of data that I've collected, what are the insights, the key insights that come out? What are the patterns that I can see, that point to an opportunity for the future? What are the patterns and problems that people are facing that tells me there is a need that needs to be solved. So all those questions about pattern finding and then framing insights or design research into usable forms that can frame your ideas for the future is critical, but that's where I've seen a lot of teams and organizations are struggling with..”

Vijay Kumar is professor emeritus at the IIT’s Institute of Design in Chicago, and the author of 101 Design Methods: A Disciplined Approach for Driving Innovation in Your Organization. His entry into the field of design at its early developmental stages have provided him a comprehensive, sound understanding of method-based design that uses research to power insights and create breakthroughs for organizations around the world.

In this episode of Control the Room, I talk with Vijay about 101 Design Methods, vintage typewriters and framing insights. Listen in to see dynamic systems with design-based structures re-shape how we interact with the world around us.

"I was blown away, absolutely enthralled and fascinated. My granddad turned to me and said, "You've got an inquiring mind, don't ever lose that." It has essentially formed who I am."- Dan Walker

In this episode of the Facilitation Lab podcast, host Douglas Ferguson interviews Dan Walker from Collective Imagination Consulting. They discuss Dan's journey from the legal field to the outdoor industry, driven by his deep curiosity and evolving understanding of justice. Dan shares how his formative experiences shaped his perspectives and how he now helps organizations create pathways toward a more just and joyful society. The conversation highlights the importance of curiosity in both personal and professional contexts, the complexities of justice, and the pivotal role businesses can play in fostering social change. The episode emphasizes a method-agnostic approach to facilitation.

“Make moments of fun, of celebration, and acknowledging that we're all accomplishing good things together. And micro celebrations and bigger celebrations and learn how to celebrate remotely.” Mariano Suarez-Battan

In this episode, I’m very pleased to be speaking with Mariano Battan, CEO & Co-Founder of MURAL, a digital workspace that we at Voltage Control love to use both internally and for design sprints. Mariano says he loves to dream about new things, and sometimes he can make them come true.

Listen in to find out the power of purposeful silence, how to power up your team’s imagination at work, and why you should be blocking out time for kids and coffee.

Show Highlights

[5:10] Multi-threaded thinking in the digital realm

[12:35] Blocking time for kids and coffee

[17:56] Powering up imagination at work

[26:09] Making space for celebration

[32:56] Purposeful silence

[37:12] Micro-celebrations, remotely

Links | Resources

MURAL

Mariano on LinkedIn

Mariano on Twitter

About the Guest

Mariano Suarez-Battan is the CEO and Co-founder of MURAL, a digital workspace for visual collaboration. He is accelerating innovation by providing facilitators with the tools and inspiration that they need to make global change. Before MURAL, Mariano created video games through his studio, Three Melons, which was acquired by Disney in 2010.

About Voltage Control

Voltage Control is a facilitation agency that helps teams work better together with custom-designed meetings and workshops, both in-person and virtual. Our master facilitators offer trusted guidance and custom coaching to companies who want to transform ineffective meetings, reignite stalled projects, and cut through assumptions. Based in Austin, Voltage Control designs and leads public and private workshops that range from small meetings to large conference-style gatherings. 

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Intro: Welcome to the Control the Room Podcast, a series devoted to the exploration of meeting culture and uncovering cures for the common meeting. Some meetings have tight control, and others are loose. To control the room means achieving outcomes while striking a balance between imposing and removing structure, asserting and distributing power, leaning in and leaning out, all in the service of having a truly magical meeting.

Douglas: Today I’m with Mariano Battan. Mariano’s the co-founder and CEO of MURAL. He’s on a mission to inspire, enhance, and connect imagination workers so that they can collaborate and problem solve wherever they may be. Welcome to the show, Mariano.

Mariano: Hello, Doug. And glad to be here.

Douglas: I'm really curious, Mariano. How did you get your start working in this field of bringing remote workers together to collaborate and do this imagine work and found a company to do that? It’s amazing.

Mariano: It is. And I was fortunate to be a mobile or remote worker. Ten years ago, I had a video-games company, and that company ultimately got acquired by Disney. So I was working for Disney. I'm from Argentina originally, but I was in the Mountain View office quite often. So I was “remote” because I was not really remote; I was just, like, distributed right? So my programming team was in Argentina. I was mostly in the U.S. I was designing a new game called Emotions. I was using Keynote to collect inspiration, and we can go further into the problem, but that sparked the idea of having an online space that felt more like a whiteboard, felt more like a project room. That's how we started 10 years ago already.

Douglas: Yeah, it's amazing. You know, I watched your presentation from MURAL Imagine recently, and you were sharing how you got your start using PowerPoint, or just reflecting on how you use it and how that helps you collect your thoughts. And it really, the light bulb went off for me, because we always talk about prototypes can be anything that we bring together to help visualize our ideas. And so we often talk about how PowerPoint can be a prototype. And so MURAL, in a way, is a tool to help build prototype or ideas and present them.

Mariano: Definitely a tool in a space to make space as we call for imagination, right? The reality is that words are great in humans. We rely on them to communicate. But, yeah, a picture, multiple pictures, a diagram, definitely much more powerful than a description, especially an oral description. There's a lot been written on, yeah, the infamous Amazon six-pager. So it can do write ups. I think there's room for everything, right? There's definitely room for the write-up ones, the thought or the idea or the information is already cooked. But in that work in progress, I think there's more space for more flexible space to gather your thoughts, get reactions from others, and build together that idea. And then, yes, putting in a more linear way to share out.

Douglas: Yeah. It reminds me. One of my favorite facilitation techniques is just to listen and capture what's the words that are flying by. You are like, words are great, but. And that's the problem is when words are just word soup and they're all flying by and they just evaporate. It almost reminds me of one of those little videos or animations where, like, the thought bubbles are coming up and then just disappearing. And it's important that we capture all those things because if we step back and look at it, we can find and visualize where our discrepancies are. If someone says, “This thing needs to be magical,” and someone else says, “It should not be magical,” we need to understand, because they probably aren't completely disagreeing, but on the surface it appears so. But if we don't capture those things and visualize them, there's no way for us to dive in and understand that.

Mariano: You know it’s funny that teams that capture an idea is that it shouldn't be one person doing describe role. It’s all the people involved in a meeting or a workshop should be participants and active participants. And one of the important things, too, there is not only sharing, but also active listening, and active listening and hopefully also documenting, because it's amazing to see once people start documenting and other folks that are listening to a presenter or something, it's funny to see how they add new ways of seeing whatever comment or thought. It's amazing to see the gifs or sketches or icons start complimenting that core phrase that was said by someone.

Douglas: Yeah. It’s like we talk about one of the tenants of facilitation being yes/and. And essentially what you're describing is the whole team is yes/and-ing silently and visually based on what's being said. And so one little thought nugget that someone vocalizes can be transformed, almost like in parallel—talk about distributed working, right? We're all in parallel or contributing to the same thing in a way that you just couldn't do. If it was synchronous, it would take us much longer.

Mariano: Yes. And I always wonder, like in the old way, when we were in person, and, I mean, one person was talking in a group of 10 or something, of course, other people were thinking about things. And as I said, like when I sort of- the good practitioners of this type of work. They were holding their own posts and adding their own things. But sometimes the synchronicity there failed to leave the trace, right? They would forget about it, or what I was thinking there. When I'm seeing workshops happening in a digital realm right now on MURAL, I'm seeing that there's a lot of, like, a multithreaded thinking going on, which I don't really know yet if it's good or bad, but it's something. It’s true, because people were thinking anyway or reacting anyway to someone presenting. Now, this thing allows them to document that reaction to the presentations more fluidly. And I would love to make this a videocast next time so we can show some of that.

Douglas: Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's really fascinating because I've seen that phenomenon as well. And it's not just limited to presentations. I've seen it organically evolve, like even through a debrief or a fishbowl conversation, where you've got some folks talking, and then others are documenting and reacting to the talking. So they are contributing to Timestampwhat's being captured, and it's not just through one lens, right? If I'm a facilitator, I'm trying to capture as much as I can. But I definitely know there are moments where, “Man, there was something he said right before that. I totally forgot it.” And, you know, so part of it’s just kind of keeping up with everything, but also there’s how we interpret it, how we just subtly yes/and it. It’s really pretty incredible. 

So there’s a negative side to all of this awesome stuff that's happening. And I'm sure you're no stranger to this, having a tool, a software product, that is essential to remote work, and remote work just becoming the only way that we can work during the pandemic. You are just slammed with lots of new sign ups. And I'm sure that's just increased the number of meetings and the amount of coordination and things that needs to get done. And Zoom fatigue is a serious thing. And how do we, as meeting attendees, meeting facilitators, how do we address these concerns around remote facilitation?

Mariano: So there's a lot in that question, so I'll start with the fatigue part. As you can listen to my voice, I need a rest. I'm doing speech-therapy sessions and also learning how to speak. It seems like I've been yelling at the screen, right? I don't know how to speak, and I’m learning and relearning how to do that. So there's a lot of things around meetings, right? There's the being present and all the hours spent working and sitting down or standing up. There's the input method of audio for my voice that’s not working. And yes, all of this gets accelerated with the fact that, in our case in particular, a lot of the world relies on us for a particular type of remote work. MURAL is not needed for all types of remote work. Probably, Zoom is much more ubiquitous and present, right? And they place all the blame on something like Zoom fatigue, where, again, they are a medium and a tool, and how people are using them is both good and bad and with other its implications.

But, yes, we’re fortunate to be able to support a lot of folks that are interested in bringing imagination to their work, how we call it, right? So those important moments around planning, around strategizing, around defining the future, but also using visual methods in design and in Agile to help us reflect, to help us celebrate, and do certain things that are little abstract parts of work where it's super important, especially to align teams that are now all over the world. 

So, yes, Doug, it's a responsibility because it's not just about letting people work, but also helping them improve how they work. It's not possible to run an eight-hour workshop online, or a three-day, eight-hour workshop online. And people are starting to quickly learn that, unlearn that, and learn the new way. So we've been doing a lot of work not only making sure that the systems are stable, scaling, trustworthy, but also bringing in features and know-how for the end users who are super under a lot of pressure and nervous because they're learning ways of working and ways of working remote. So it's tiring and rewarding.

Douglas: I would like to take just a moment to talk about that. You know, I've definitely experienced just exhaustion from having to pivot my company and make sure that things are pointed in the right direction and all that. And I actually started having massive headaches. It turned out it was a lot from eyestrain, so I had to adjust my monitors, get new glasses with blue blockers, and progressive lenses. I’m getting old, Mariano. So I'm curious if you have any tips, any advice for folks that are, how can we step away from this stuff or how can we adjust our imagination work and how we use the tools to make it less stressful, or whatnot?

Mariano: Sure. There's definitely, like, a design of the day and the week component to the question, and then in particular, going into the actual work. And things that I've been doing to design the week is explicit about designing the week and the day, and then things happen and we change it. But at least filling the time to say, okay, what would I like to accomplish this weekend? What would I like to accomplish for myself, for my family, and for the business, too? So in the last few weeks, I didn’t respect it much, but in the beginning of the pandemic, in the first couple months, very much, which is two hours per day blocked for kids and coffee. I mean, in the middle of the day so that we can also do exercising with kids. So it's like I hit two birds with a stone, and everybody is happy about that. And of course, time to reflect and time to plan baked in in the beginning and the end of the week.

Douglas: So, I want to dig into this exercise with the kids. So tell me how that works.

Mariano: Well, it's hard to be a teacher. I mean, especially if you're all day and being a “teacher” inside your company. So with kids, your level of energy’s low, so I found the best play sessions with them are also, in a way, facilitated. I've been doing sessions where we design a project or we design a bike route. And those are the ones that are more rewarding, where there is like a little bit of planning time, a little bit of execution time, and then reflection time. Or I bought a set of cones, for example, and we put in the street entrance and designed, you know paths for exercises. We run here, we walk there, run sideways here maybe with the ball, because if not, it's very loose. Play is really hard to deal with, especially as an adult. You don't have the power, infinite power of imagination that the kids do have. So, yeah, little scripted has been helping me. And of course it's hard to persevere. But I come back every week, and at least once in that week, I go back to some sort of script method. 

I've actually been thinking about how to take that to work, right, because in the old way, maybe, like, last year, for example, we were able to bring the whole company to Argentina for a week, and we had a lot of time to just hang out. But really, I always thought about the hanging-out part of work. I say something that also got me a little nervous because I thought we could be using it for better work. I mean, in a way, as a fan of sports, right, I like that sports car, like a beginning, a middle, and an end. They have rules, and then you can do some improvisation in the middle. But you know what the purpose of the get-together is, when it comes to work, water-cooler time, I never found that super interesting. 

So, yeah, trying to guide just play time and not scripted time, but using scripted and play-guided script to help us bring in the creative juices, level the playing field for introverts and extroverts, to be able to participate, and try to persevere in doing that over and over so that we can get better at it because it's not easy to connect with people through a screen.

Douglas: Yeah. It reminds me of this BBC report that I read that said most pointless meetings are actually a form of therapy. And the thing that became really clear to me was, well, if that's the case, we should be intentional about it rather than just letting it organically happen, because people need it. Let's program it in and make sure we have really good therapy and we really check in. And, you know, I think that's a reason why a lot of people design an icebreaker. It’s unfortunate the way a lot of it develops, though, because when it's not really intentional and not tied to the purpose, there's a real missed opportunity because we can do something that's gracious and purposeful. And again, it can take us a bit further. But you’re absolutely right that we have to have time for the team.

Mariano: Yeah. Making time for no goals but structured play is interesting.

Douglas: Yeah. I want to come back to the ninja course that you built out in your driveway. Did you guys use MURAL to plan it before you went out to put it together?

Mariano: No, dude. It’s too much in front of Mural, it’s uh-

Douglas: No doubt. That’s like trying to get away, right?

I’ve always respected MURAL for your efforts to support facilitators. It's very clear that as a design and product consideration, when you're thinking about your roadmap and building features to support what we do as facilitators. And so I'd just like to hear a little bit about your philosophy around why that's important and where you see it could go, not in so much in the sense of, like, what's next on the roadmap, but from a philosophical standpoint. Like, where could that take us?

Mariano: Sure. So you mention mission early on or on imagination workers and powering them up globally. So when I talk about why we do what we do, and generally, I start with imagination and making room for imagination at work, make space for imagination at work. But imagination at work is not easy, right. For some of us, for certain cases, it may come naturally, but there's a lot of paralysis. So that's why we also believe—and we learned this early on in our journey—that the guided methods that people like you, Douglas, like, consultants and folks that are thinking of how to make this type of work happen—have put together alignment diagrams and methods were key to bring these teams together and ultimately help them with the job of creative problem solving and creative problem solving. So that's one part, right? Like, we don't support all types of work in MURAL. We just don’t need it for everything. 

But when there's something big to go through with, again, workshop-type mindset, you should probably rely on MURAL for that. And you should rely on MURAL whenever and wherever you might be. I mean, the idea that we go to innovation centers to innovate, that was always interesting to me because shouldn't we be innovating in small and big scale all the time? So that's the obvious thing around remote work that we support. 

But then the fourth bucket, pillar, or vector, whatever we want to call it, that we care about is facilitation. And as you mentioned, that we have a team focus on that. We have content based on that, because you observed at the best-run meetings there are some professional facilitators, or someone takes the role or many of them take the role of a facility—well, facilitation, right?. Like, doing facilitation. So we believe it’s a core competency for now and the future and because of the need for more multidisciplinary teams. And yes, and doing this in person is hard. Doing this remotely is virtually impossible. So that's why we tried to do a lot of community, a lot of content sharing, and a lot of little features in the product that we believe could be great for folks like you to be able to guide, to ask questions, to bring a little bit of fun and play into these meetings, and, ultimately, make your participants achieve the end goal of the meeting.

Douglas: Yeah. It just dawned on me that good agenda design can also really improve this sense of Zoom fatigue and meeting fatigue, because if we’re just going back-to-back meetings and there’s not a good sense of closure, there’s no good arc—I mean, imagine if you went to the movies, and you watched a movie, and every movie just ended right at the climax, and then you were right at the next movie, and it's just like action just thrown at you the entire time, there's no on-ramp. It’d be like having to jump off your—you're flying to Cincinnati, and you have to jump off and parachute down to get off the plane.

Mariano: I'm watching the timer right now in the podcast software. I'm realizing at minute 22, 23 now, and yet being aware enough of time, of first starting the meeting also with a purpose, right? Why are we meeting? What's the end goal of this meeting? And trying to have an agenda, but also acknowledge that maybe there's some flexibility that you can bake into that agenda. And if you're not able to close the meeting, probably there are two things. One is if you're consistently not closing in time, probably there's like a meeting design there, you might need more meeting time or more workshop time in the future to make sure that you get to closing. Or the nice thing about this remote situation that we're all in is that you can also call it a pause, right? And open up the next day or next week. People are starting to realize that they can unbundle workshops and unbundle meetings and not squeeze out everything from that workshop that first day. So there's a little bit of flexibility in my malleability that we're able to do to have here in the work that we have right now where we are all peers and that we're checking in digitally to the space.

Douglas: I love that concept of unbundling and how we can split workshops apart. And I'm going to switch gears here a little bit and talk about something that I heard from one of your MURAL employees, Hailey Temple, I was sharing a Loom over. There was something neat that I'd found about how I was using MURAL, and I was trying to explain it to her. And I thought, “It’d be so much easier just to record a quick Loom so she can see what I'm talking about.” And then she's like, “Oh, I love Loom. Mariano always records really great Looms for the team to get us motivated.” And I thought to myself, that's incredible. Such a great use of a tool for a distributed team to get them excited and motivated. So I would just love to hear some inspiration you might be to offer other leaders. Like, what should they be thinking about? Why do you use these tools to send videos out to the team? Why is that important? And how can we motivate our distributed teams?

Mariano: Sure. So, yeah, normally it's about recording media, screen recording video. There's another one called Vidyard that’s more customer facing. And there's probably a few others. And so, we went through a very tough time, right, in last six months now, maybe four, depending on the part of the world. We're hitting our lowest pandemic rate. It’s not a, we say, to work from home when we're walking around and being free of working on the beach or whatever. People are locked down in their houses in Argentina, where a lot of our guys are for 120 days now or so. So it's super, super tough to order them. So, acknowledging that and acknowledging it in a way that it's, again, as a human as possible is important, and I'm putting that on video. And on video that I generally compliment with a MURAL, with some visuals to explain that it has been a good practice and something that people appreciate. And it doesn't take me much time, and people can watch it in whichever time they want. And, yeah, I’m getting positive reactions because I appreciate their work; knowledge that it's not easy; share some thoughts, ideas, and plans. 

And another thing that we do also and we did and I was super happy how it all went out is that we made space for celebration also. When we wrapped up our very challenging, positively challenging quarter in June, in November we coordinated to make sure that we sent boxes to everybody in the company with a little mimosa kit and a little pub party bulbs and content and Schwab from the company to each of them in their homes. And I made time to celebrate. And I came back to the message that I was repeating over and over and over with new people coming in. It's necessary in those Loom videos. And I repeated that message again on the accounts  where we celebrated. Acknowledging that, again, we had accomplished something big together, and because we worked as a team and that now was a good time for us to acknowledge all of that and celebrate. And there was probably one of our, like a good moment where we also came together as a team and reflected back on those initial plans videos into something that came full circle. And I look forward to doing more of those again.

Douglas: That's amazing. I have been thinking a lot about tactile objects and supplies and things, and bringing that into your workshops or you're all hands or any kind of experience. Just because we're all distributed and we can't be in office together doesn't mean we can't send everybody the T-shirt or the awesome care package. That’s really great.

Mariano: There’s a company called Sliced in New York, and they call it an API to sell pizzas. And I've been thinking a cool feature for the future would be, like, press button, send pizzas, through MURAL. So we'll see how that goes, and it gets complicated with global teams, though.

Douglas: Yeah, no doubt. Incredible. 

So one of my favorite questions is around meetings, of course, on my mission to help people have better meetings everywhere. And I'm just curious what your go-to is. If you could change anything about the way most meetings are run, what would it be?

Mariano: I mentioned something before, right, so I think there's two things. One is acknowledge which type of meeting it is, and related to that, open up with the end goal of the meeting. For example, when I do first candidate meetings on recruiting, I try to be really curious, but very explicit about the end goal of this meeting is to see if we could be a fit for each other. I took that one from sales training, actually. There's a firm that we hire called Winning by Design that I really like. And they teach the sales guys to open up with appreciate taking the time today. Check time. Do you still have 30 minutes for us to go through this meeting? And the third thing is the end goal of this meeting is to see if we could be a fit for each other. And the corollary of that also is if in the middle of this meeting we believe that we're not a fit for each other, for whichever reason, we accomplished the goal, and we can end the meeting earlier. If we also accomplish the goal of, we can, we can be a fit for each other,  great. And maybe you do another check in later on to accomplish another goal, which is go deep into your requirements or go deep into your background to understand if we are a fit for each other. 

So I think that opening up, we have very clear goal is something that is very important. And the other thing that it's also related to the beginning is related to checking in. So checking in, fully checking in as individuals, as collaborators, and acknowledge that that's our goal, which is the role of each other, and how are you going to be participating here? Not as spectators, hopefully, or if you are spectators, acknowledge it and claim your role, but also acknowledging that maybe you're not needed for a meeting and that's okay. So goal first, roles and responsibilities second, and checking in, and checking in with a fun exercise that gets the creative juices going.

Douglas: Now you've got me curious. What is your favorite check-in exercise?

Mariano: This is not my favorite one, but it's a funny one. The other day, I put up the lyrics of Despacito, the song. And I had each of my leadership team members go for a phrase. And it was hilarious to hear the English-speaking guys trying to sing Despacito in English.

Douglas: That’s amazing. That reminds me of one that, essentially, everyone, first round, puts a name of a song, like a hit song, one of those songs that just gets stuck in your head, you know? So everyone contributes one, and then we shuffle them up. And then everyone draws the name, and then you have to sing that song. So you had to sing the song you randomly drew. And yeah, it's a little awkward.

Mariano: So, I mean, a question that we ask new team members to reply to when we introduce themselves to everybody else. The first one is, like, how you plan to make an impact. Sorry—so, first of all, why did you choose MURAL? The second one is, how you plan to make an impact. And then the third one is, tell us something weird about you. So I think that—and why are you in this meeting, how you plan to make an impact in this meeting, and then something fun are all things that we could bring into important big meetings.

Douglas: Yeah, that's great. You know, it doesn't have to be the all hands for, you know, someone's new. That's when you could be pretty evergreen, those questions, especially if you shift them from the company to the meeting, it's awesome. 

So I'm curious. What have you recently discovered or kind of bumped into that gives you hope and makes you curious?

Mariano: That silence was on purpose. So the use of silence, right? I mean, as evidenced by my voice, I have not been silent enough. I mean, talking, talking, talking, pitching, pitching, pitching. And silence, two observations. One is from the sales training, was, like, leave space after a question. Let them answer, and let them continue answering. Let you’re, the person you’re interviewing, just go for it. And the other day, we invited Maria Judis to talk, and she opened up with a silent moment, and also put together, like, a little sticky note with on camera that said, “Wait,” and says, “Yeah. Why am I talking?” And as a moment to, again, leave space for others to do that, especially someone they want them to share, it is close and so on. So, yeah, the use of silence. And it's weird in a remote environment because sometimes silence is catalyzed via a faulty mute set up; or bad connection; or am I talking? You’re talking? And people don’t want to bump into each other. So, yeah, I mean, silence as a tool.

Douglas: I love it. And that's the second time “wait” has appeared on the podcast, so it’s a popular one in these circles, especially with active listening being so critical to facilitation. So I love that you bring that up. 

I've even been exploring with using MURAL as a tool to allow us to play with silence. And so we'll do some work in the plenary session where everyone's together in the main Zoom room. And then I'll send folks into the MURALs to do some work. I won’t send them to the breakout rooms yet, but they’re already working in their breakout-room area in the MURAL. The reason I don't send them to the breakout room yet is that it's much easier to enforce that silence, because if anyone starts talking, then another group can hear them. And so if I send them to their breakout rooms immediately, then they all start talking in the breakout rooms. And so designing around that silence can be a real powerful thing.

Mariano: You mentioned that we have a facilitation team. That's one of things we observe, right? Besides unbundling and synchronous and synchronous work, even within the “synchronicity” of a meeting or a workshop, there are moments where you want solo work, small teamwork, plenaries, as you mentioned. And as a matter of fact, you showed me some of that when we were in the Google Sprint conference in San Francisco and you were facilitating your workshop on liberating structures. So I don't need to teach you. And I learned that from you. So we have a feature coming soon called private mode where people will be in private mode. We acknowledge that people also do breakout MURALs or breakout sessions in a MURAL. So we're baking that. As you know, there's a new celebration function in the product or the timer or the whole thing. So that's where we do most of our innovation, to be honest with you, right, on the little things that add up to what we call the facilitation superpowers, where yeah, it’s two-hundred bucks for facilitators to be able to run better meetings. But a good practice, as you mentioned, is definitely leave time for solo work first and then share out.

Douglas: So, Mariano, I'd love to hear any kind of final thoughts you might have for the listeners. Anything that's top of mind that you'd love to share?

Mariano: Insist on celebrations. We're all going through a very challenging time. I mean, the virus, spikes are coming all over the world. We're going to have to go back inside. Winter will be coming soon in the northern hemisphere. Pay attention to the southern hemisphere, people that are shut down and in winter and cold. It's not fun there. So make moment of fun, of celebration, and acknowledging that we're all accomplishing good things together. And micro celebrations and bigger celebrations and learn how to celebrate remotely, which is super hard. And so that would be my ask for all of you.

Douglas: Excellent. Well, Mariano, it's been a pleasure having you on the show today. 

How can folks find you if they want to look up your work, find MURAL, find out more about you. Where should they go?

Mariano: The website is mural.co. And my Twitter or LinkedIn, I use batmelon. It's a joke that I can tell the audience at some point, but it relates to Batman and Three Melons, my game studio. We tried to show up being dogs, being webinars, and inspire everybody with our brain to use it for imagination. We believe that imagination and collaboration, it's what makes us human, right? The Homo sapiens that started our civilizations imagined language, imagined civilizations, shared them with each other, and for small teams to be able to build civilization. And the good thing about computers taking over knowledge work and data crunching and other processing is that we can come back to this type of work that is so rewarding and so fun.

 So follow us if you care about that. And thank you, Douglas, for also spreading the gospel of facilitation and reward work. Glad to be here in the show. And hello, everybody out there that are facilitators. We want to help you out, and reach out if you need anything. 

Douglas: Thanks again, Mariano. It's been a pleasure.

Marino: Cheers, mate.

Outro: Thanks for joining me for another episode of Control the Room. Don't forget to subscribe to receive updates when new episodes are released. If you want more, head over to our blog, where I post weekly articles and resources about working better together, voltagecontrol.com.

“Rhetoric to us is the adjustment of ideas to people and people to ideas. Essentially that calls for what we refer to as rhetorical precision. We suggest that a facilitator be much more reliant on substance than style. In fact, we encourage people not to be charismatic because you want the focus on the content, not on the individual themselves. So clarity and precision demand a very sensitive tuning into rhetoric and what one is actually saying or asking.”-Terrence Metz

In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Terrence Metz about his extensive experience as a facilitation practitioner, author, and trainer. We explore concepts like rhetorical precision, consciousness, and competence.  We then discuss the distinction between enterprise vs. community facilitation, consensus vs. unanimity, and stories vs. metaphors.  Listen in to learn questions every facilitator needs to know.

“I've always loved how do you do things, very tool or method-oriented person. Getting there, I think the accomplishments or the path toward it was always kindling, always maintaining that curiosity about what is it that helps people shape their future strategically with others...I think it's that if there was any one thing, it's following a thread, following a hunch from the very first position I had and an interest in strategy and shaping the future.”

Keith McCandless, co-developer of Liberating Structures, specializes in working with groups to unleash creativity, discover opportunities, and build on momentum. He calls himself a structured improvisationalist.

In this episode of Control the Room, Douglas speaks with Keith about goat rodeos, grief walking, and prototyping responses to unsafe behaviors. Listen in to find out what’s giving Keith hope right now.