Cults and the Culting of America (Daniella Claire Mestyanek Young and Scot Loyd)

Daniella Mestyanek Young's book: 

·       From Bookshop.org

• Uncultured Autograph: 

Connect with Daniella on social media

• TikTok, Patreon, Instagram 
• Youtube
• Connect with Scot Loyd's social media  (TikTok)
• Daniella's other podcast: Hey White Women

**Cults and the Culting of America Podcast**

Welcome to the Cults and the Culting of America podcast with scholar of cults, extreme groups, and extremely bad leadership, Daniella Mestyanek Young. I'm your host, Scot Loyd. Welcome to another episode of Cults and the Culting of America. I'm Scot Loyd, along with my friend Daniella Mestyanek Young. Not only is she my friend, but she is a scholar of cults, extreme groups, and extremely bad leadership. Daniella, how are you doing today?

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** 

I am doing great. I am excited for us to talk about the worldview shift into the transcendent mission and the most common question anyone gets asked about cults, which is: what is the difference between a cult and a religion?

**Scot Loyd:** 

Very nicely said. I'm looking forward to this episode. And you're wearing an interesting shirt today. Tell us about that shirt, and if folks want to buy one for themselves or their friends and family, how can they do that?

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** 

Yes, you can find any of the shirts you see me wearing through the links below. I sell them through my social media channels. This shirt says, "The first rule of cults is you're never in a cult," which is the epigraph of my book, *Uncultured*. It's about growing up in the Children of God and joining the US Army. It's also a play on *Fight Club*, which a lot of people don't realize is kind of the cult movie. It really gets to the idea that nobody thinks they're in a cult. Cults are manipulative cons that target people, lie, deflect, and pull you into their worldview. As soon as you realize you're in a cult, you're on your way out. But many people think cults are extreme and rare, when in fact, they're incredibly common. A lot of my life's work is pointing out these parallels and helping people understand the groups and systems we're in.

**Scot Loyd:** 

And we're going down the list of characteristics of a cult that you have identified and authored. Today we arrive at the idea of worldview, or as you call it, the sacred assumption. What do you mean by sacred assumption, and why is it a leading characteristic of a cult?

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** 

Oh my gosh, this one is so dramatic. I mean, literally, I was in bed and I sat up and just yelled out, "Hold nothing sacred." It was the answer to the question I'd been asked for 15 years: Why would anyone join a cult? How can people fall for such extremism? Growing up in the Children of God, which was a pedophile cult, it was perfectly understandable how it happened, but difficult to explain to outsiders. First, let me bring this back to that common question: what is the difference between a cult and a religion? This ties into worldview. People ask this all the time, and I say they're not even the same type of thing. A religion is an idea, a noun. A cult is a group. You need a group, even if it's just two people. One of the most pernicious stereotypes is that cults are religious. Every day I see people saying, "Nah, not a cult, because we're not religious." Part of why NXIVM fooled so many people is because it wasn't religious. Large group awareness training, like est or anything ending in "-ony," aren't religious but can still be cults. A cult doesn't give you a religion; it gives you a worldview. The leader spends decades forming this worldview, and to be a member, you must adopt it. It's not presented that way, but it becomes clear once you're in it. The entire worldview is upheld by the sacred assumption. In the Children of God, it was that this random white dude who failed at everything was the prophet of God. As long as you believe that, you can justify anything. The sacred assumption ties closely to the "ends justify the means" mentality and sometimes even precipitates an apocalyptic mindset.

**Scot Loyd:** 

The sacred assumption doesn't necessarily have to be theological in nature. It could be anything related to life, like pursuing wealth, status, or power. That's what a lot of these groups offer – a world change, a fulfilling life, or a flourishing existence.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** 

Right. In NXIVM, the sacred assumption was that Keith Raniere was the smartest man on earth. In the US Army, the sacred assumption is that the US flag is worth dying for. You must believe that to be successful in the Army. So, it doesn't have to be religious. It's a worldview. I've recently realized all cults and cult leaders promise "space travel," meaning ultimate enlightenment or achievement will be on another plane, another existence, another life, a different heavenly body – something that can't be proven. This keeps people from achieving enlightenment because if it were real, they'd leave. It's a crucial part of the con and makes it hard to crack people's brainwashing. As long as you choose to believe the sacred assumption, you can justify anything.

**Scot Loyd:** 

When you talk about this sacred assumption or worldview, it reminds me of Aristotle's idea that to be persuasive, you need parts of your message that are familiar and parts that are novel. If it's all novelty, people are likely to reject it. But if there's something familiar at the core, it resonates with people. Cult leaders leverage these familiar sacred assumptions that people are already familiar with to control their thoughts and behavior.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** 

Yes, and I think this is exactly what Taylor Swift means when she says, "You know how to ball, I know Aristotle." She's dropping lines because she knows how to pull emotional strings. Cult leaders know how to manipulate you by leveraging these familiar concepts. I don't agree with the stereotype that cult leaders start off good and then turn bad. Cult leaders don't trip and fall into coercive control. They've been figuring this out for a long time. For example, Jim Jones was studying how to manipulate people with preacher voice from a young age. He never cared about civil rights; it was just his way to stand out. This is why religion is often used – it's a pre-existing worldview with a giant body of literature and concepts that a cult leader can tweak and spin to fit their agenda. They use these frameworks to radicalize people. Religions have thought-stopping clichés built in, where at some point, logic ceases, and you go forward on faith. Nefarious leaders who have been honing their manipulative skills know how to use that.

**Scot Loyd:** 

Right. And the thought-stopping cliché is, "God told me to do this." When someone plays that card, how do you come back from it? You don't. There's nothing you can say if they claim to have heard from God. Cult leaders play on these collective questions we all have about origin, destiny, meaning, morality, and purpose. They offer answers with certainty, enthusiasm, and passion. The human dynamic often makes us fall in line and not question these sacred assumptions.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** 

Absolutely. And deconstruction tip, Scot, can you repeat that list? We need to make sure this is in the show notes.

**Scot Loyd:** 

Sure. The list is origin (where did I come from?), destiny (where am I going?), meaning (what does it all mean?), morality (how do we treat one another?), and purpose (what should I do with my life?).

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** 

These are the huge questions you have to define for yourself when you leave a cult. You're rejecting a worldview. My three-part model of deconstruction is: first, wake up and physically and mentally leave the cult; second, spend about a decade understanding why you were in a cult and its impact on your personality and identity; and third, move forward with no models. It's overwhelming because you've lost your framework and have to answer these giant questions. This is why we're at risk of cult-hopping afterward, looking for another system with black-and-white rules. I fell into CrossFit and paleo for a while because I was looking for another system to live by.

**Scot Loyd:** 

I've experienced that too. My deconstruction is still ongoing. I left the United Pentecostal Church in a slow fade. I went through stages of cult-hopping, embracing different theological perspectives, and coming to terms with the idea that I was exceptional. I had to realize that if I'm special, that's something I define for myself. Likely, I'm just like everyone else, trying to make it through life and determine what is good, how to treat one another, and how to get along. The sacred assumption regulates behavior, but we need autonomy over our lives.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** 

Exactly, Scot. We build these stories to control behavior. Classic fairy tales were scary to keep children safe. The stories we tell ourselves are critical to how we act and operate. One thing to watch out for is groups with anti-gossip policies. Gossip helps us warn each other about bad actors. These stories and worldviews are crucial, and it's not as simple as discarding them. It takes a decade or more to build your own worldview after leaving a cult. We need to understand why we were in a cult and its impact on our identity before building our worldview.

**Scot Loyd:** 

Yes, like you, I was born into the United Pentecostal Church and invested a large part of my life in it. Education was my way out. One of the most fascinating books I read early on was Foucault's *Discipline and Punish*, about the

 evolution of prisons. He opens with an assassin trying to kill King Louis XVI. The public execution made people rebel, so prisons were designed to regulate behavior. The panopticon's design, where prisoners think they're being watched 24/7, became a model for schools and hospitals. It's a beautiful analogy for high-control groups. The sacred assumption regulates behavior, dictating every aspect of life.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** 

Yes, and military deployment is like a prison sentence in many ways. Initially, it's nice not to have to handle daily tasks, but eventually, you crave autonomy. People want clarity, which cults provide during social confusion. Recording my audiobook made me realize culty things about myself 20 years after leaving the cult. I had to audition for the audiobook and was convinced only I could do it. When I got the offer, I was paralyzed with fear, needing professional validation. This made me realize I had been seeking a mentor to tell me what to do with my life, which isn't a mentor; it's a leader.

**Scot Loyd:** 

Exactly, Daniella. I still seek validation and apologize for everything, a holdover from conditioning in the United Pentecostal Church. The sacred assumption gives us something to aspire to, standing in for the leader's gaze. It's terrifying to make decisions on your own, but we're all just trying to figure out how to live our one life. Your book, *Uncultured*, was your way of making your pain meaningful, helping others with their journeys. Realizing we're not as different or special as we think is a poignant part of deconstruction.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** 

Yes, and the realization that we're all in this together, without sacred assumptions keeping us apart, is crucial. Leaders proclaiming sacred assumptions discourage questions. Offering certainty in a volatile world is appealing but unrealistic. Sacred assumptions offer a selfish worldview, ignoring global perspectives. When you see an "us vs. them" mentality, question it. It's built into cult language, with groups claiming moral superiority.

**Scot Loyd:** 

Absolutely. Cult leaders use familiar values and frameworks to radicalize people. Your Ten Commandments for good groups, like holding nothing sacred, counteract this. Values can be manipulated; it's the reporting you require that shows true values. For example, if safety is a company's stated value, but they focus on loss numbers, they're not prioritizing safety.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** 

Exactly. And to preempt trolls who say, "not holding anything sacred" is my sacred assumption – approaching beliefs with skepticism is essential. I show this in *Uncultured* at a soldier's funeral, holding doubt that our side is 100% right. General McChrystal's book, *Leaders: Myth and Reality*, emphasizes that soldiers must admit they don't know for sure they're on the side of right.

**Scot Loyd:** 

And this idea of binary thinking – right vs. wrong, good vs. bad – is problematic. Our lives are shaped by luck and circumstances. The arrogance of assuming we're right and others are wrong is staggering. Living humbly means recognizing the complexities and uncertainties of life.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** 

Yes, deconstruction is about becoming less narcissistic and more selfish in a healthy way. Recognizing privilege and the accident of birth is crucial. There's no meritocracy; success isn't guaranteed by doing everything right. Grasping sacred assumptions is a con.

**Scot Loyd:** 

Well said, Daniella. On that note, we'll conclude this fascinating conversation. I encourage our listeners and viewers to pick up Daniella's book, *Uncultured*, read it, and share it with friends. If you like what you hear, leave us a rating, subscribe, and share the podcast. Thank you for tuning in.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** 

Thank you, Scot. For more on extremism and related topics, check out my project *UnAmerican* on Patreon, where I share the manuscript and other content. Follow both Scot and me on TikTok for more conversations about cults.

**Scot Loyd:** 

Thank you again for tuning in. We'll see you next time on Cults and the Culting of America. Follow Daniella on social media and subscribe to her Patreon for exclusive content. Pick up her book, *Uncultured*. Until next time, I'm Scot Loyd for Daniella Mestyanek Young on the next episode of Cults and the Culting of America.

Summary

Lucas Moctezuma discusses his upcoming film 'Holy Water' which is inspired by cults and explores the concept of free will within a cult setting. The film is set in a jury room where the jury deliberates the guilt of a religious cult leader who incited a mass suicide. The jury debates whether the cult members had free will or if they were controlled and manipulated by the cult leader. The film also delves into the psychological perils faced by cult survivors and the concept of doctrine over person. Lucas shares that the film is influenced by his mother's experience in a religious community in the 1970s. The conversation explores the challenges of depicting cults in film and the balance between sensationalism and authenticity. They discuss the importance of finding a balance that resonates with both regular audiences and actual cult survivors. They also touch on the difficulty of helping someone leave a cult and the need for compassion and understanding. The conversation concludes with a discussion about the filmmaker's GoFundMe campaign to support the production of the movie.

Summary

In this conversation, Scot Loyd and Daniella (KnittingCultLady) delve into the complexities of group dynamics, particularly focusing on the duality of groups as both beneficial and potentially harmful. They explore the societal fascination with cults, the nuances of labeling groups as 'good' or 'bad', and the inherent human need for belonging. Daniella shares insights from her experiences and research, emphasizing the importance of questioning group structures and the potential for exploitation within them. The discussion culminates in a list of ten commandments for creating healthy, functional groups that prioritize individual well-being over blind allegiance.

• From Bookshop.org

• Uncultured Autograph: 

Connect with Daniella on social media 

• TikTok, Patreon, Instagram 

• Youtube

• Connect with Scot Loyd's social media  (TikTok)

• Daniella's other podcast: Hey White Women

Summary

In this conversation, the hosts and guest explore the dynamics of cults, particularly focusing on Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and its 12-step program. They discuss the coercive nature of these programs, the sacred status of AA, and the psychological impacts on individuals involved. The conversation highlights the importance of recognizing the tactics used by cults, the role of shame and judgment, and the need for personal responsibility and accountability. The emotional toll of leaving such programs and the significance of language in shaping identity and recovery are also examined. In this conversation, the speakers delve into the complexities of recovery from addiction, discussing the various systems in place, including Alcoholics Anonymous and Christian recovery houses. They explore the intentions behind these systems, the potential for abuse, and the importance of understanding one's options. The discussion emphasizes the need for empowerment and autonomy in recovery, highlighting alternative methods and the significance of informed choices.

Daniella Mestyanek Young's book: 

• From Bookshop.org

• Uncultured Autograph: 

Connect with Daniella on social media 

• TikTok, Patreon, Instagram 

• Youtube

• Connect with Scot Loyd's social media  (TikTok)

• Daniella's other podcast: Hey White Women

McCauley Sexton is a consultant and creator of proprietary alternative recovery programs and manualized content for institutions and non profits, with over a decade of lived experience. As the co-host of the recovery reform podcast with Dr.Nichols he addresses the stigma and indoctrination within the recovery community and our culture as a whole. 

Transcript

Scot: Welcome to the "Cults and the Culting of America" podcast! I'm your host, Scott Lloyd, and I'm here with Daniella Mestyanek Young, a scholar of cults, extreme groups, and extremely bad leadership. Daniella, how are you today?

Daniella: I'm doing great, Scott! How about you?

Scot: I'm good, thanks! I see you’ve been super busy lately. Every time I open Instagram or TikTok, you’re going live. How do you manage to talk so much from 7 a.m. to 5 p.m.?

Daniella: (Laughs) It's funny you mention that. When recording the audiobook for "Uncultured," I discovered I have no trouble talking for seven to nine hours a day. While others worry about losing their voice, that wasn’t the hard part for me. Right now, I’m talking to a lot of people about cults, which are a hot topic these days. Historically, cults thrive during times of societal change because people crave clarity and leadership.

Scot: That makes sense, given everything going on. Your book, "Uncultured," is fantastic and really sheds light on your experiences growing up in the Children of God cult and later joining the Army. I recently moved to Springfield, Illinois, and saw your book featured as a must-read at Barnes & Noble. Congrats on all the success!

Daniella: Thank you so much! I love seeing those photos of "Uncultured" in the wild. I appreciate the introduction. As you mentioned, I grew up in the Children of God cult, which is one of the worst you’ll hear about on this podcast. I later joined the U.S. Army and earned a master's degree in Industrial/Organizational Psychology from Harvard Extension School. Now, I’m a scholar of cults, extreme groups, and extremely bad leadership. I compare what I do to an intelligence officer's work, helping people understand group behavior and recognize cult tactics in everyday life.

Scot: Absolutely. Your book has been a great resource in understanding my own experiences with the United Pentecostal Church, which had many cult-like behaviors, especially in policing the bodies of women. These groups often use appearance and attitude policing to control individuals, stripping away their individuality.

Daniella: Exactly. Cults exist for labor and control, using predictable patterns of coercive control. Appearance and attitude policing are key tactics. We’ll discuss this more in our episode on self-sacrifice, but the goal is always to erase the individual for the group’s or leader’s benefit.

Scot: That loss of individualism is a common thread in many cults and extreme groups. For example, in the Pentecostal church, the exuberant worship practices often lead to a collective loss of self, making individuals more susceptible to groupthink and control.

Daniella: Yes, chanting and group activities make us highly susceptible to suggestion. It’s a common tactic in cults and other controlling environments. We’ll explore this further in the podcast, breaking down my 10-part definition of cults and comparing these tactics to behaviors in everyday groups and systems.

Scot: I’m thrilled about this podcast and the opportunity to learn from you. Why do you think cults are such a hot topic right now?

Daniella: America is going through significant societal changes, similar to the 70s. People are seeking clarity and community, making them more vulnerable to cults. Additionally, we’re revisiting social issues and questioning longstanding systems like patriarchy, racism, and capitalism. Cult tactics are everywhere, and it’s crucial to recognize them to navigate these systems better.

Scot: Well said. This podcast aims to educate and help people understand the toxic elements in groups and systems. I invite everyone to join us on this journey. Like, rate, and share this episode to help us spread the word. Daniella, thank you for sharing your insights.

Daniella: Thank you, Scott. To our listeners, get my book "Uncultured" wherever books are sold, or check out my second book, "UnAmerican," on Patreon. Follow us on social media for more updates, and stay tuned for our next episode, where we’ll dive deeper into what makes a cult a cult. For Daniella, I’m Scott. See you next time on "Cults and the Culting of America"!

Summary

In this conversation, Daniella and Scot discuss the use of specialized language or vernacular in cults and high control groups. They explore how cults develop their own language to create a sense of belonging and isolation from the outside world. They also discuss the impact of language on communication and the difficulty of finding community after leaving a cult. The conversation highlights the manipulation of language by cult leaders to disguise abuse and control. They emphasize the importance of critically evaluating loaded language and cliches to uncover their true meaning. In this conversation, Daniella Mestyanek Young and Scot Loyd discuss the use of cliches and loaded language in cults and other contexts. They explore how cliches are used to shut down critical thinking and manipulate individuals. They also discuss the conflation of ideas and the use of binary thinking to control and dismiss dissenting voices. The conversation touches on the concept of conspirituality and the influence of language in advertising and politics. They provide guidance on becoming more aware of manipulative language and the importance of exposing oneself to diverse viewpoints.

Daniella Mestyanek Young's book:

·       From Bookshop.org

• Uncultured Autograph: 

Connect with Daniella on social media

• TikTok, Patreon, Instagram 
• Youtube
• Connect with Scot Loyd's social media  (TikTok)
• Daniella's other podcast: Hey White Women

Takeaways

Cults develop their own language to create a sense of belonging and isolation from the outside world.
Language is used by cult leaders to manipulate and control their followers.
Leaving a cult can result in a loss of community due to the specialized language and shared experiences.
It is important to critically evaluate loaded language and cliches to uncover their true meaning.
Language can be a powerful tool for communication and understanding, but it can also be used to deceive and manipulate. Cliches are used in cults and other contexts to shut down critical thinking and manipulate individuals.
Binary thinking and the conflation of ideas are used to control and dismiss dissenting voices.
Conspirituality refers to the use of language in health, wellness, and spirituality communities to manipulate and control individuals.
It is important to be critical of the language and messages directed towards us, including in advertising and politics.
Exposing oneself to diverse viewpoints and avoiding isolation can help guard against manipulation.
Watch out for dehumanizing language and us versus them mentality, as these are tactics used by cults to create a sense of superiority and wage wars.

In this episode of Cults and the Culting of America, hosts Scot Loyd and Daniella Mestyanek Young engage with Tara and Floyd, who share their experiences growing up in the Institute in Basic Life Principles (IBLP) and the Advanced Training Institute (ATI). They discuss the complexities of deconstruction from fundamentalist beliefs, the emotional toll of leaving a cult, and the impact on family relationships. The conversation also touches on the importance of emotional awareness in parenting and the healing journey after leaving high-control groups. Tara and Floyd reflect on their participation in the documentary 'Shiny Happy People' and the challenges they faced in sharing their story.

Tara and Floyd:

Instagram: @advocateaverage

tiktok: @advocateaverage

Daniella's Links:

You can read all about my story in my book, Uncultured-- buy signed copies here. https://bit.ly/SignedUncultured

For more info on me:

Patreon: https://bit.ly/YTPLanding

Cult book Clubs (Advanced AND Memoirs) Annual Membership: https://bit.ly/YTPLanding

Get an autographed copy of my book, Uncultured: https://bit.ly/SignedUncultured

Get my book, Uncultured, from Bookshop.org: https://bit.ly/4g1Ufw8

Daniella’s Tiktok: https://bit.ly/3V6GK6k / KnittingCultLady

Instagram:  https://bit.ly/4ePAOFK / daniellamyoung_ 

Unamerican video book (on Patreon): https://bit.ly/YTVideoBook

Secret Practice video book (on Patreon): https://bit.ly/3ZswGY8

Other Podcasts

Daniella's other podcast: Hey White Women

Takeaways

• Deconstruction is a personal journey that varies for each individual.
• Cults often use contracts and strict rules to control members' lives.
• The emotional cost of leaving a cult can be profound, affecting family relationships.
• Parenting styles can be influenced by past experiences in cults.
• Finding peace and healing is possible after leaving a high-control group.
• The process of deconstruction can lead to a deeper understanding of oneself.
• Cults often exploit labor and manipulate finances for their benefit.
• Sharing one's story can be a powerful tool for healing and connection.
• The importance of emotional awareness in parenting cannot be overstated.
• Cults can be seen as criminal enterprises that exploit their members. 

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to the Journey of Deconstruction
01:33 Understanding IBLP and ATI
05:45 The Cult Debate: Is IBLP a Cult?
12:11 Navigating Different Deconstruction Timelines
18:27 The Impact of Parenting on Deconstruction
23:46 Sobriety and the Numbing Process
28:31 Emotional Suppression in Cults
31:11 The Birth of a Musical Concept
32:14 Living with the Pain of Loss
34:50 Navigating Family Relationships Post-Cult
37:18 The Complexity of Conditional Love
40:13 The Struggle of Acceptance and Identity
43:12 The Irony of Family Dynamics
46:22 Addiction to Certainty and Superiority
49:15 Finding Peace in Acceptance
53:05 The Journey of Healing and Advocacy

Produced by Haley Phillips

Summary

In this episode, Scot Loyd, Daniella Mestyneck Young, and Ali Henney discuss the intersections of cult dynamics, white supremacy, and the silencing of women, particularly black women. They explore personal experiences within cults, the impact of group behavior, and the role of narcissism in community spaces. The conversation also delves into the concept of misogynoir and the unique challenges faced by black women in various contexts. The importance of using one's voice to advocate for justice and the complexities of identity and intersectionality are emphasized throughout the discussion.

Takeaways

Ali's book 'I Won't Shut Up' explores personal experiences and broader themes of racism.
Cults often silence women and weaponize secrecy.
White supremacy operates similarly to cult dynamics.
Group behavior can be amplified in cult settings.
Narcissists often infiltrate communities seeking vulnerable individuals.
Religious groups can be breeding grounds for manipulative behavior.
Misogynoir uniquely affects black women in various spaces.
The 'skinny white woman' trope serves as a gatekeeper in many contexts.
Understanding intersectionality is crucial for advocacy.
Using one's voice is essential in combating injustice.

Daniella Mestyanek Young's book: 

• From Bookshop.org

• Uncultured Autograph: 

Connect with Daniella on social media 

• TikTok, Patreon, Instagram 

• Youtube

• Connect with Scot Loyd's social media  (TikTok)

• Daniella's other podcast: Hey White Women

Summary

In this episode, Scott Loyd and Daniela Mestenec Young explore the complex dynamics of cult mentality, particularly focusing on the phrase 'the ends justify the means.' They discuss how this mentality manifests in various contexts, including military practices, religious cults, and societal norms. The conversation delves into the psychological manipulation involved in these systems, the dangers of binary thinking, and the importance of embracing uncertainty in life. Through personal anecdotes and broader cultural analysis, they highlight the need for critical thinking and the dangers of extremism.

In this conversation, Daniella and Jack explore the parallels between cult dynamics and the education system, particularly focusing on how teaching can exhibit cult-like characteristics. They discuss the impact of masculinity, patriarchy, and the control of children within educational settings. The conversation delves into the degradation ceremonies present in both cults and schools, the role of punishment in hierarchical systems, and the importance of unstructured outdoor time for child development. They also address the exploitation of teachers' labor, the purpose of education in society, and the need for resistance against oppressive structures. Ultimately, they emphasize the importance of community action and hope for a better future.

Jack's Links: 

Website: https://healthecycle.com/

TikTok: @watchfulcayote

Youtube: @WatchfulCayote

Daniella's Links:

You can read all about my story in my book, Uncultured-- buy signed copies here. https://bit.ly/SignedUncultured

For more info on me:

Patreon: https://bit.ly/YTPLanding

Cult book Clubs (Advanced AND Memoirs) Annual Membership: https://bit.ly/YTPLanding

Get an autographed copy of my book, Uncultured: https://bit.ly/SignedUncultured

Get my book, Uncultured, from Bookshop.org: https://bit.ly/4g1Ufw8

Daniella’s Tiktok: https://bit.ly/3V6GK6k / KnittingCultLady

Instagram:  https://bit.ly/4ePAOFK / daniellamyoung_ 

Unamerican video book (on Patreon): https://bit.ly/YTVideoBook

Secret Practice video book (on Patreon): https://bit.ly/3ZswGY8

Other Podcasts

Daniella's other podcast: Hey White Women

Takeaways

• Teaching can exhibit cult-like characteristics.
• Masculinity is viewed as a cult in modern society.
• Patriarchy is a foundational cult system.
• Degradation ceremonies are common in both cults and schools.
• Children are difficult to brainwash due to their developmental stage.
• Self-sacrifice is a significant expectation in teaching.
• Education often discourages pushing back against authority.
• The current education system breaks individual identity.
• Community action is essential for change.
• Hope for the future is vital in resisting oppressive systems.

Sound Bites

"Teaching might be a little bit culty."
"Masculinity today is a cult."
"Hope for the future is essential."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Cult Dynamics in Education
02:57 Exploring Masculinity as a Cult
06:01 The Role of Patriarchy in Cult Structures
08:47 Degradation Ceremonies and Control Mechanisms
12:04 The Us vs. Them Mentality in Education
15:08 The Impact of Childhood Environment on Identity
18:01 Authority Figures and Internalized Hierarchies
20:59 The Sacred Assumption of Education
24:09 Democratic Education vs. Traditional Models
27:12 Self-Sacrifice and Labor Exploitation
30:03 The Broader Mechanism of Capitalist Exploitation
32:57 Comparisons to Historical Dictatorships
38:30 The State of Education and Social Services
41:01 The Purpose and History of Education
45:04 The Impact of Education on Identity and Agency
48:52 Challenging the Sacred Assumption of Capitalism
53:31 Resistance and the Role of Education
59:50 Pathways to Change and the Future of Education

Produced by Haley Phillips

Daniella Mestyanek Young's book:

·       From Bookshop.org

• Uncultured Autograph: 

Connect with Daniella on social media

• TikTok, Patreon, Instagram 
• Youtube
• Connect with Scot Loyd's social media  (TikTok)
• Daniella's other podcast: Hey White Women

 Episode Summary: Cults and the Culting of America - Episode on The Skinny White Woman in Cults

**Episode Title:** The Skinny White Woman in Cults

**Hosts:**
- **Daniella Mestyanek Young** (Group Behavior Gal) - Scholar of cults, extreme groups, and extremely bad leadership.
- **Scot Loyd** - Co-host and commentator.

**Introduction:**
In this episode, Daniella and Scot dive into the concept of the "skinny white woman" in cults and high-control groups, exploring her role in supporting and legitimizing cult leaders and their coercive control tactics.

**Key Topics:**

1. **The Skinny White Woman in Cults:**
   - Daniella introduces the concept, highlighting examples like Allison Mack in NXIVM and Ghislaine Maxwell with Jeffrey Epstein.
   - The pattern of skinny white women supporting cult leaders and their role in upholding white supremacy.

2. **Historical and Cultural Context:**
   - The history of white supremacy and its influence on the perception of purity and ideal womanhood in America.
   - The policing of women's bodies, especially through clothing, makeup, and hairstyles, within cults and broader society.

3. **Daniella’s Personal Experience:**
   - Daniella shares her observations from the Children of God cult and the US Army, noting the emphasis on appearance and control.
   - Her realization of the role she played in upholding certain standards and her decision to rebel against these norms.

4. **The Role of Charismatic Authority:**
   - Discussion on how cult leaders often place skinny white women, military officers, or celebrities around them to gain legitimacy and distract from their actions.
   - The enforcement of patriarchal norms by these figures within the group.

5. **Scot’s Perspective from the United Pentecostal Church:**
   - Scot reflects on his experiences with the church's emphasis on the ideal woman and the spiritual power attributed to women who fit this mold.
   - The impact of purity culture on both men and women in religious settings.

6. **Control and Manipulation Tactics:**
   - How cults use control of appearance and emotional manipulation to maintain power over members.
   - The concept of emotional evocation and its role in cult dynamics.

7. **Breaking Free from Cult Influences:**
   - Strategies for deconstructing cult programming, such as rejecting purity standards and embracing individuality.
   - Daniella’s journey of using her platform to educate and advocate against these harmful norms.

**Conclusion:**
The episode concludes with a call to action for listeners to educate themselves, support anti-racist and feminist causes, and use their voices to challenge oppressive systems.

**Call to Action:**
- Follow Daniella on social media and support her on Patreon for exclusive content.
- Purchase Daniella’s book "Uncultured" to learn more about her experiences and insights into cults and high-control groups.
- Like, subscribe, and share the podcast to help spread awareness and gain a broader audience.

**Closing Remarks:**
Scot thanks Daniella for her insights and contributions to the discussion, encouraging listeners to continue questioning and deconstructing harmful societal norms.

---

### Cleaned-Up Transcript

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal) (00:02.754):**  
This is the Cults and the Culting of America podcast with scholar of cults, extreme groups, and extremely bad leadership, Daniella Mestyanek Young. I'm your host, Scot.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal) (00:26.062):**  
And the Culting of America podcast. My name is Scot Loyd along with my friend, Daniella Mestyanek Young. Daniella, how are you today?

**Scot Loyd:**  
I'm doing great today. Ready to talk about the skinny white woman in cults.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
Yeah, so the last time we were together, we were going down the list that you put together to identify cults and high-control groups. And of course, the charismatic leader was at the top of that list.

**Scot Loyd:**  
Closely related to the charismatic leader is what you refer to as the skinny white woman at his side. So tell us more about how you arrived at this idea of the skinny white woman.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
Yes, absolutely. And I think I'm going to read a little bit from the book that I'm writing. Very exciting, because we've just explained it here.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
All right. Time and again, when an American cult comes to public attention, often because they've crossed some very clear lines and have victims or bodies to show for it, we find very near the cult leader, a skinny white woman pulling some of the strings. When NXIVM was all over the news in 2017 and 2018, and it came to light that Allison Mack was one of Keith Raniere's lieutenants who helped him with his schemes to groom and sexually abuse women, I was heartbroken. Not sweet Chloe from Smallville, but also intrigued. Why her?

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
When the news could speak of nothing other than Jeffrey Epstein and his teenage sex trafficking ring, there she was again, the skinny white woman in the body of Ghislaine Maxwell. I saw her everywhere, in the matriarchs of the Duggar family, to the women at the center of OneTaste, Hollywood's infamous orgasm cult. And I started to notice the pattern in so many American cults and culty groups, going all the way back to the beginning of the country.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal) (02:35.788):**  
What was it about the skinny white woman that was so necessary to the success of the cult leader and their establishment of coercive control? And I'll just tell some of this story, right? So then I go to one of my social medias and I'm like, why? Like, why is it a skinny white woman? And so a woman of color from my cult who grew up in the cult that I grew up in, the Children of God, was like, you know, kind of jokingly like what? Cult leaders don't like voluptuous women or something. And we both kind of laugh because the Children of God was the sex cult, right? And it was international. And this man was not like racially discriminating necessarily. But that was when I figured it out. Cause I was like, okay, so it has something to do with white supremacy, right? The role that she is playing and what role do white women like myself play in upholding white supremacy?

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
Is this idea that our very presence is purity, is civilizing, right, is goodness. And so this skinny white woman is exactly who you want when you are starting a cult. And so I talk about this on TikTok and it goes really viral and it's just, everyone's making all these connections of the women that Trump always had as his mouthpieces, right? And like speaking of that, first ladies in general, the women that you picture in HR in corporate America. And meanwhile, I realized that very significantly like, I probably played this role in the US Army being this woman who was basically a shield to be like, the army can't be toxic and horrible for women because look at how well Captain Mestyanek is doing. So I'm figuring all of this out around the time that I'm writing my book, "Uncultured," and I'm like, no, I'm done, right? I'm not being the skinny white woman. I'm not being used this way. I'm gonna tell the story. I'm gonna get ugly. And I'm gonna call out, you know, the uncles and the colonels. And, you know, one of the things that my co-writer and I say is that...

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal) (04:58.328):**  
You know, a good white woman in America is supposed to be quiet, skinny, and a light shade of beige. And all of those have to do with upholding and whitewashing, right? The sins of the cult leader. So what do you think about this concept, Scot? I know you've read the whole chapter.

**Scot Loyd:**  
Yeah. And this is something that goes back a long time in the culture of the United States. The way that white supremacy and this idea of purity has shaped the collective imagination of people here in the United States and created this racial hierarchy. I know that you talk a whole lot and rightly so about how these particular groups police primarily the bodies of women. And it goes beyond, it certainly has to do with what they put on their body as far as clothing and makeup and hairstyles.

**Scot Loyd:**  
But it also goes to the whiteness of what they are representing. And they associate this skinny white woman with their ideal of what purity looks like and what it should look like.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
Right. And this is why, you know, it's fun for me on social media and people are like, well, why does she got to be white? And I'm like, actually, I've told me five pages of research on this, right? Or people will be like, well, you're a skinny white woman. And I'm like, yes, the best person to talk about the cult is the ex-cult members, right? I like to be very clear that I'm not saying there's anything wrong, of course, with being a woman, with being white, with being skinny, right? But there are all of these things that we have as like the stereotype, right, of the skinny white woman. So my skinny white woman in cults is just the cult version.

**Daniella

 (Group Behavior Gal):**

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
So my skinny white woman in cults is just the cult version of the white woman who whitewashes and upholds patriarchy, as you pointed out. And what's really interesting is I think there's another two types of tropes that we also see used sometimes in place of the skinny white woman, which is military officers plus if they're also a skinny white woman, like in OneTaste, the orgasm cult.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal) (07:19.054):**  
And celebrities, right? We will let celebrities stand in place of like fame or stand. We will let fame and money and celebrities stand in place of like charisma. And so often we see cults with this skinny white woman, with this military officer, or with this celebrity, right? You're Tom Cruise of Scientology, or Jeremy Spencer, or Fleetwood Mac of Children of God. And it's like their job is to whitewash the sins, to distract. Because as we talked about in the last episode, the charismatic authority doesn't necessarily mean the leader is charming and good with people and often they're kind of bumbling fools in many ways. And it's these people that they place around them that confer validity and also distract everybody from what's going on.

**Scot Loyd:**  
And I know growing up in the United Pentecostal Church for me, it was amazing to see this lived out and looking back upon this in retrospect, I can certainly see that most of the pastors who were esteemed as successful in our organization had a form of the skinny white woman standing next to them. To us, as it was communicated, it represented an idea of spirituality. So there was lots of influence from the idea of the umbrella and the man and then the woman and the children all under Jesus and that hierarchy. So the skinny white woman represented this ideal family unit where the woman was in submission to the man. And it went further than that because Pentecostalism is a group that emphasizes spiritual power with God. Usually the woman who was skinny represented a woman who fasted, who abstained from food, who was able to bring her body under this discipline, and that somehow gained her favor with God and this spiritual guru status that all of us should listen to because obviously she had a direct line to God based upon how she dressed, based upon her hairstyle, based upon her lack of makeup, but also based upon her body style. And what's interesting is that was never communicated as something that pertained to men because most of the men were overweight.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal) (09:38.976):**  
And so there was a double standard that existed, right? And sometimes people wonder where does this come from? And actually the United States has this long history of elevating what an ideal woman should look like. And again, it's all about control. It's all about manipulation. It's all about setting this idea for culture and moving it forward.

**Scot Loyd:**  
Yes, very significantly, it was all about justifying slavery and dehumanizing black women, right? And so this is where we see the term female, by the way, come into the lexicon as like being used to describe humans because human females are called women. You know, we see this in the army today, same use of dehumanizing language, right? So it was all about control. It was always about power. And what you talked about is so significant, right? Like we always see attitude control and appearance control under coercive control. And the skinny very specifically, both in cults and in larger American culture gets put at this very top of this hierarchy because it is a visual symbol of sacrifice. And let me tell you in the chapter of the book where I talk about how cults use self-sacrifice to have you de-individualize yourself. I go straight from how cults use skinny into the military because there the men did not escape it either. You will be skinny even when operationally it's less effective. My husband who retired as a very high level, you know, special operations pilot.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal) (11:59.054):**  
Always says his ability to be skinny and run fast was more important to his career than his actual piloting skills. And that was the same for me, 100%. So you can be worse at the actual parts of soldiering or in denial of all this research that shows that there's many ways to be fit and have your body still look different. So first of all, the military is creating its own problem. But also, I really think the skinny in this case is a purity requirement, right? It is a visual symbol that you can self-sacrifice, you can control yourself, you can discipline your body within an inch of its life. And the military, when we talk about inches, we are talking about inches on your waist, right? And you can do all this if you're a good soldier. And when I tell you like in that formal military photo that you see in the uniform, it's very important to have this elbow gap. We talk about the thigh gap in the world. In the army, you gotta have your elbow gap so that they can see, they say that you fit in uniform, but it's that they can see that you're skinny. If they just wanted us to fit in uniform, they would give women a uniform built for women's bodies and art ratios.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
It's always just about the power and control. And Skinny, again, gets to the top of this hierarchy. And then the other thing that you said that was really impactful was you just explained her path to charismatic authority backward, right? Because of all these qualities that the Skinny White Woman has about her, we give her authority over us. And the Skinny White Woman usually becomes like the chief of police of policing everybody else for the cult leader.

**Scot Loyd:**  
And something in my experience, and all of that is fascinating by the way, your insights to the military is really something that I've never heard before. that's great and very illustrative of what we're talking about today. But growing up, this idea of the skinny white woman was held up as the prototype, if you will, for everyone else in the organization. But of course, it was a primarily white organization. In fact, the United Pentecostal Church that was formed by a merger of two other Pentecostal groups in 1945. One of the motivating factors of them getting together was the exclusion of black people and the exclusion of other black organizations. But over time, as black people came into the church and into the group, this presented a problem that no one ever talked about. Because first and foremost, the hair is different for black women and white women. But black women were expected to emulate and to look like the skinny white woman that was held up as the ideal of what all women should look like. And so again, then you have the meta cult of white supremacy being presumed as this is the standard for everyone.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
Yeah. And that influences us, right? I still to this day very much struggle with disordered eating, which is something that readers of my book informed me of. Because going from skinny worship cult into skinny worship army, right? Like I'm just all over the place. But you know, I still in my head, it's like, I feel that there's this hierarchy, right? Where like, if I get fat, the cult wins or the army wins, right? And I remember being inside those groups critiquing, right? And I had this real crack in the brainwashing when I showed a photo to someone of a couple who had gotten out of the army and put on their freshman 50. And I was like, oh, look at them. And he just looked and he said, they look really happy. And I was like, And this concept that there is no hierarchy of good, evil, thin, fat, right? That's not a thing.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal) (16:39.384):**  
But so many of us have been so, so programmed. And really, again, important to point out as you did, Scot, that like all of this comes from white supremacy and so many white American led cults come out of white supremacy, right? There's a lot of reasons that a lot of cults started in the sixties. School desegregation and the civil rights was a big one of them. Christian Bible colleges with people's names on them, like those all started because they didn't want their children to go to school with black children, right? So all of this is about that. And you know, the last thing I want to emphasize is purity requirements are impossible. That's why they work really well for coercive control, right? So like, I, in not the distant past had a very what I call come to Dr. Taylor, Alison Swift moment where I think I was starting to die because of trying to maintain skinny perfection. It's not possible. That's why cult leaders never follow their own purity requirements. As you mentioned, the men in the church are very big, but the women have to be so tiny. And one of the things that purity requirements does that is the most harmful is it turns us into our own jailers.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
You know, so in my example, I've been out of the cult for 20 years. I've been out of the army for a decade. I am still jailing myself and trying to get through that hierarchy that I've been taught my entire life. This idea of purity culture and lots of people are talking about that, or at least there are more conversations going on than what there used to be around this idea of purity culture. Primarily as it applies to sexual behavior. But it goes beyond sexual behavior. It goes to the

 way primarily women look and how they carry themselves. But also speaking from a man's perspective, I know growing up in that purity culture, it also had an impact on me, right? Because I often tell the story that growing up in the United Pentecostal Church, I was faced with the dilemma of how do I receive attention? Being the last born in my family, my parents being older, there was a lot of desire on my part psychologically for people to see me and to hear me. And so growing up in the United Pentecostal Church, I realized that I could either be very bad and get a lot of attention, right? The rebels, the sinners.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal) (19:00.332):**  
The kids sitting on the back pew slouching during service, they got a lot of attention, they were preached to, but the kids being very good got a lot of attention as well. So I sat on the front pew. I was the Bible quizzer that committed most of the King James Version to memory. I could recite it. I could give you chapter and verse and I was steeped in that culture. But then it presented a problem for me when adolescence happens, right? Because my body starts experiencing all of these changes. And, you know, one of the big things, unfortunately, in purity culture, as it was in my church, is that women are the subject of this policing. Like, don't dress that way because you'll cause the young men to stumble. Well, I've got to tell you, in my church, they were covered head to toe and I was still stumbling all over the place, right? Because it was something natural that my body was going through, but because of the purity culture, I was conditioned to believe that everything that I was feeling, everything that I was thinking, everything that I was experiencing, as it related to natural changes in my body, something that everyone goes through, that somehow I was guilty of sin. And then you couple that, oops, you couple that with the idea that Jesus could return at any moment.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
And I'm living not only in guilt, but also carrying around this great anxiety. And you can imagine that if I was facing that as a young man, that what young women were dealing with was far worse.

**Scot Loyd:**  
Yeah. Well, and you know, this just underscores too that like the answer is never fix the victim, right? But, you know, the reason you feel so much guilt is because it's impossible. But they don't tell you that. So you feel all this guilt for completely normal things. And because of that, you are easily able to be manipulated, right? This is the same reason that the US government does background checks on people, right? if you have guilt, if you have hidden secrets, you are easier to manipulate. Count David Petraeus count. But you know, what you were saying was so interesting to me too, when you were talking about purity requirements. And it just makes me realize that like the black and white thinking itself that the cult relies on is also a purity requirement, right? And the way we do attitude policing is also a purity requirement because you are either, you know, in cults generally you are allowed to be happy or wailing on command at the altar call or at the tap ceremony, right? You are not allowed to be any other gray.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal) (21:25.976):**  
And all of this is about making people more open to just absolute control. And you reference the wailing on command or being happy and certainly in the emotionally saturated Pentecostal services that I experienced, especially during this time of the year, we're recording this in June. It was summer camp time and we would all be put in a van, right? And we'd be hauled off to this rural secluded area. And we would do nothing during the day except there were two options. You went to church for three hour stints, and then you played softball or walked around and sweated in the heat and humidity and had the occasional snow cone.

**Scot Loyd:**  
But then at night, right, there was another three hour Pentecostal service where everything was hyper emotional. And I joke, you know, because they would tell hormone infused teenagers to abstain from any touching, from any kissing, from any contact of any kind. But then at the end of that emotionally charged service, we were encouraged to lay hands on one another and to pray for one another and to do so in a way that was, you know, we were whispering in people's ears. We were shouting in people's ears. And, you know, it was, it was, it was in another context. It was highly erotic, right? And it was something that definitely in retrospect was confusing.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
Which, and by the way, so many of the cult tactics that are used to make you feel like you are having these spiritual or emotional breakthroughs are these very sensual, corporeal, you know, as you were talking, I was like, yep, it's part of the pattern to tire you out all day long and then bring you into the emotions. Quick deconstruction tip for our audience. This is called, when cults do this, it's called emotional evocation. So if you grew up in a cult, you are probably very, very good at just deadening your emotions. The thing that we tend to not do though is have those moments of release. And so, you I think this is why so many of us get out and we're, we're like drawn to these like slow ballad type musics, you know, because it's the praise music kink or like, mean, when my husband was deployed and I, my literal area of expertise was ways that helicopter pilots die in Afghanistan.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal) (23:48.546):**  
And this was four years, six to nine months out of the year, he's over there. And I would just find myself like sitting in my car or something, just like listening to these really sad, you know, soldier doesn't come home songs and just bawling my eyes out. And then I could like feel better and go deal with the baby and the life and everything, right? So this is one of those things that like, as we know it, we can do that for ourselves and we can understand that we need to have this emotional outbursts and releases, right? Because once again, the purity standards are impossible. The other thing you've talked about was like those of us that throw ourselves into perfection. And ever since writing "Uncultured," where I go from growing up in a cult to being in the US Army, I have found that it gets very, very, very common for kids from high control religions to go into the US military and the US government.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal) (26:10.146):**  
And like across the board, we're like, yeah, it wasn't difficult. Like it was so easy for me to be the best runner on the same way it was for me to be the best sword drill memorization verse finder. That skill comes in handy now when I'm trying to find parts in my own book for a live audience, let me tell you. But it's this discipline. And when I first read somewhere that good grades could be a sign of depression, I was like, oh, like, that's what I did. You know, like I left the cult, I was thrown out at 15. Like, I just thought I was just working so hard to get my life in order. But no, it was like, I could get attention from teachers by being absolutely the best student. And so that was what I needed. And it gets to this idea of superiority.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
That cults give us, like cults tell us that we are the best. And I think sometimes that's what makes us go cult hopping afterwards is because we're looking for something that's gonna feed that superiority again. I also describe it for myself as like, so in the children of God, the concept was you're nothing without Jesus. The only proper response to a compliment was it's only Jesus. You know, it's still really hard for me to just take compliments and be like, thank you.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal) (28:33.3):**  
And so then when I'm 15 and I reject Jesus, like now I need to spend the next 20 years of my life proving that I am in fact something without Jesus. And so all of these things, you know, I think brings us right back to the skinny white woman and like she's working so hard to prove that she can be this perfect sacrificial person, but it's also out of ego, right? It's through the sacrifice, we are proving that we are the best.

**Scot Loyd:**  
And you bring up an interesting point that I want to explore a little bit and perhaps there's something to this, something that I observed in the United Pentecostal Church and you referenced it there, right? When you received a compliment, you were supposed to respond, well, it's only Jesus. I often saw people, and this could apply to men or women, obviously because of the culture and the cult dynamics, it applies primarily to women. If there was a woman in the group that was naturally beautiful, that met all of the constructed aesthetics, you know, that we apply universally to beauty, like symmetry and color and tone and all of those standards, often they received a type of persecution as well, especially if the skinny white woman at the top felt somehow threatened by the dynamic that was going on here. And so it's almost a bell curve. What they were aiming for, it seemed like, was a homogeneity

. They wanted everyone to look alike. And so if you had

**Scot Loyd:**  
If you were on the flip side of that and you were a someone that was naturally beautiful and attractive, then you had a target on your back as well. Was that your experience?

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
Like a super nuanced point here is that the whole point is uniformity, right? So the stereotypes is always cults have uniforms. You know, we can thank Heaven's Gate for that one. People be like, no, not a cult don't have uniforms, but there is a uniform appearance. Right, very much helped by the glassy-eyed, you know, stay in your ability to fool yourself gaze. But like you said, when somebody stands out, that's the problem, right? So get this, in the military, right, okay, so in the Children of God, we had whatever rules we had about clothes, but then we also had like this very vague, ambiguous, you can't be trying to look

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal) (30:55.766):**  
cool. And basically, you're trying to be cooler than Jesus, right? And so, which is so ironic, because there's this rap video of me as a 10-year-old rapping Apocalypse Bible verses looking very cool and would never have been allowed to dress like that. And then in the US military, right, they have hundreds of pages of appearance regulations for exactly how you must look. And then they have their catch-all ambiguous, anything the commander decides is too faddish. And so I literally used to get told that I had to redo my hair because it looked too good, which is what you were saying, right? And so basically like I have naturally curly hair. I discovered before my second deployment as an army captain that a lot of the frozen hairstyles meet army regulations and are much easier on the head than a bun for so many reasons. And, you know, because I have curls spilling out of whatever, I would get told like, my God, that looks like an updo. How long would that take you? And then anytime a leader was upset, they would just be like, Nope, redo it. It looks too good. It looks too faddish. Which this also goes to my theory of any arbitrary regulations or legislations are used to oppress people without power. But, you know, back to the concept that hair control is very, very, very important in appearance control. But also, yes, like you are not supposed to stand out, which in the army, by the way, means you are supposed to look like a World War II GI Joe.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
Who is six foot two, blonde with blue eyes and a jaw that can cut glass and is a helicopter pilot. And, you know, I love the one of those that lives in my house, but every demographic you are away from being a Tom Young, your career is harder. And when men don't understand this, I just lean in and say, you're short, right?

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
They get it pretty much immediately, right? Because their entire world is built for you to be six feet tall. And so if you've been in something like the military and you are a man who's five anything, you know that your career has suffered in comparison to my husband because of your shortness. And that is true again, just like every demographic piled on. And so I say, you know, for women, we fail the cult test on day one because we stand out.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal) (33:14.552):**  
from day one because we have been held to be in such a minority and because they don't shave our heads. And, you know, in a closed society, the other becomes the enemy. And in the US Army, our doctrinal job is to find, fix, and finish the enemy. So I trace these lines a lot, right, from like your hair being different to rape culture.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
And it's all part of this control. I'm gonna end this rant with something else you said, which was the gender policing, right? So in these white women that are policing, like the gender roles and this all we always see this happening in all kinds of cults. And I'm pretty convinced that that is because coercive control is patriarchal and is therefore always must have your gender roles. And the US Army's attitude is, y 'all asked to be here, but we don't want you here, but now that you're here, you better be proper effing women.

**Scot Loyd:**  
And one of the functions of the skinny white woman at the side of whoever the leader might be, especially in these cults, you're right. It's based upon patriarchy because one of the functions of that skinny white lieutenant at the leader's side is to enforce the wishes of the patriarchy. And so what this does, it's sort of a divide and conquer mentality. So the skinny white woman, not only by her appearance, polices the bodies of every other woman in the group. But also if there is a divergent woman that is somehow out of line, it is then the skinny white woman's responsibility to go to that woman or to go to that group of women and to correct them or to further marginalize them by pulling in other women or other men to somehow use rhetoric or to use treatment or shunning or some type of behavior to further marginalize those divergent women or divergent men who are not falling in line with the expectations of the group.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal) (35:26.306):**  
And what you said was so important, right? Because that is the lieutenant's job, right? In a military unit, the commander is the strict, tough, scary one. The lieutenant is the one that everybody loves, the XO. And their job is to be the enforcer. And this very much jives with a message that black women are telling us right now, which is, hey, yeah, white ladies, like we all choose the bear because the white men are our worst predator, but you're sleeping in their beds, right? And so I personally take this as a very personal challenge and it took me seven years of effort to radicalize the person in my bed into like a full-fledged feminist. And now we are working on the anti-racism, which by the way, y'all can check out my other podcast, Hey White Women, that I'm creating with a white woman whisperer to deconstruct white supremacy, like the cult that it is. But yeah, right. So there's this point in our lives where we get to choose to stop being the skinny white woman.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
And I think this is what is important about this realization. You know, so for me, this has meant, cause people again, that are not trying to understand this in good faith, I think will be like, well, what now I'm a bad guy for being a skinny white woman. But like there were other things in there, right? You can't immediately change your body type. can't immediately tear out all of the bad stitching that's been put into your brain and re-knit it all back

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
but you can stop being a light shade of beige. You can stop being quiet. You can get ugly when people around you are being white supremacists or misogynists or other things, right? All of these things are going to get you kicked out of the cult of the skinny white woman, no matter what body you're in. You know, for me, I had this realization when...

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal) (37:48.11):**  
which does make it into the end of the chapter when this black woman says to me on TikTok, you know, when a white woman is dressed like that, she is about to drop some truths. And I thought about that and I was like, yep, I think there's two things about the way I dress myself today, not for the male gaze and not for the cult of white supremacy. Like nobody sees me walking down the street and thinks that I am a nice evangelical white lady.

**Scot Loyd:**  
which I think is the role I tried to play so hard to fit in for a long time. And I do want to point out that I think that you exemplify this well. And in fact, I just saw a recent, I believe it was recent video of yours where you're talking about the fact that you recognize the fact that you are a straight presenting white woman that gives you the ability and the opportunities to write your book and to get noticed in ways that other people with different identities, women of color may have not had the opportunity. So I think we referenced this in a previous episode that people that look like me, people that look like you, it is very important for us to acknowledge that we are speaking from a place of privilege and we are committed to dismantling that privilege. And if you hear a speaker or a leader,

**Scot Loyd:**  
that is unwilling to do that and is back doing the opposite, is doing everything to, to, boister, that, white supremacy and that systemic racism, then you're likely in a cult.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
Right. And also like, this is what we can do about it, right? You and I right here, right? Like when I realized that I got to have a major Macmillan book, can we see it? Nope. Coming it up. Anyways, it exists somewhere.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
Then I got to have a book because I am considered every woman author

 while anyone from other demographics would be considered a niche author. I can rage about that. I can talk about that. I can educate that. I can also go out and buy those women's books and convince all of my 150 million white women friends to go buy their books. Suddenly it's not niche, right? Something is not niche if everyone is buying it.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal) (40:11.842):**  
And this brings me back to our point, one of the points where we started, which was the most powerful person to take down a cult is the ex-members of that cult. So one of the things, one of at least my answers to realizing privilege, this is something I've worked hard to teach my husband, that now that he is this fully radicalized feminist,

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
He is a phenomenal six foot two billboard for feminism, literally hang feminist t-shirts on him and send him out to the world. And he's always has these scenarios in his head for what he's gonna say when somebody comes up to him and says something, but that doesn't happen because he's in the body of the most powerful voice in the room, right? So no, we can't change certain unchangeable things about us.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
And we can't change. can't change that I'm in this body that has been weaponized against people who don't look like me, but I can use my more powerful voice to fight for them. I'm calling this concept becoming the Karens of anti-racism.

**Scot Loyd:**  
Nice. I like it. Well said. So just to bring us full circle and you referenced your book and by the way, for our listeners and viewers, absolutely buy Uncultured and read it today. Growing up in the children of God, how did you see this principle exemplified in the skinny white woman? Who was the organization's skinny white women? Was there more than one? How did that function? And just out of curiosity, when did you begin to question these sorts of things? Was

**Scot Loyd:**  
One of the primary thoughts that you had about the way that women are treated, I know growing up in the United Pentecostal Church, for a lot of us that exited that group, one of the reasons, the primary reasons that we left initially and got into this world of thinking about it more deeply was immediately we saw, hey, women are being treated differently than men. The expectations for women are different than men.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal) (42:27.982):**  
When it comes to dress and style and all of this, and it's just ridiculous. And so that's one of the reasons that a lot of people exit, at least initially. So what did that look like for you in the Children of God?

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
So I think I always realized like the sexism aspect of it. That's probably part of why like I could never buy as a child or a young teenager, and I think because I'm neurodivergent, I don't feel like a proper woman. And I definitely can't be convinced that there's any reason that the boys are better than me. So I always realized that part, but that's where a lot of us white women get to and stop, right? We're like, the patriarchy is bad. Let us own the plantation. And so I did

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
hear the term white privilege until 2014, I was deployed as a captain and somebody was trying to use me as the example that white privilege didn't exist. And that's when I had my neurodivergent moment of joy because someone gave me a term for something I observed for 13, however many years I'd been in the US, but I hadn't had like words for it. So I wouldn't have even been able to start like recognizing it before that, I don't think.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
And that was like the beginning of probably my crack in the white supremacy brainwashing. And then, you know, we've been working on it for quite a while. But in, you know, in the Children of God, we always had that we had our, you know, 75 year old man leader who was married to skinny white woman who ultimately rises up and takes over, which is one of the three types of skinny white women, because I have subsets, of course. Well, talk about that. Tell us, tell us about those three subsets.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal) (44:40.362):**  
Yeah, so I think there's just like the quiet sidekick, right? It's the Melania Trumps. It's the Mama Maria of Children of God. It's like even Ghislaine Maxwell, you know, it's like they're there, they're absolutely part of the whole evil plot, but they're being used more for the body that they're in, in many ways. Then there's your skinny white woman who like actually wants power.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
And uses that to actively work her way in. And then there's the skinny white woman who's just like, no, I'm not playing this game. And then, therefore, either takes over the whole thing outright, or leaves. And so we kind of have like, think Princess Diana is one we use as an example in the book. And so yeah, so but you know, we had

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
So our head skinny white woman, but then also, you know, the woman who wrote the Dava Ditto book, which was basically a manual on pedophilia, who was like the big, probably second in command woman in this 10,000 person cult, you know, former Dallas cheerleader, who somehow was always permitted to have blonde hair, even though we didn't have her hair. You know, so like, it was very much and it was very much a bully.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
To be skinny culture, you know, even to the point where all of the comics that were drawn, you know, my dad was one of the comic artists. And so of course he would draw the women with these tiny waists, right? And you big boobs, tiny waists. And like the character for my mom was always drawn that way. However, my mom was pregnant and nursing for 14 years straight from the age of 14 to 30 or 16 years straight. Like she didn't have that figure.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal) (47:04.558):**  
Right? But in our heads, from the very beginning, we were being taught skinniness. And we were also being semi-starved, which is the other part of being skinny, is that you are semi-starved and you are much easier to manipulate for a number of reasons.

**Scot Loyd:**  
Was that put in the context of fasting, of going without food for spiritual reasons, or was it just food withheld for no reason at?

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
Yeah, it was just food control. In my opinion, there was definitely a sexism angle to it. I still eat very quickly. I've had multiple boyfriends be like, promise I'm not going to eat your food. But that was my safety in the cult, right? Because if there was one piece of chicken for everyone, but someone took two and now this uncle or even older boy doesn't have a piece of chicken, they're going to take it from the seven-year-old girl. And that's something I understand would have been beneficial in the army as well, huh?

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
I mean, this was the same in the army and the army does it through controlled time for eating. But in basic training, you're given three minutes to eat. And when I tell you I studied this, Scot, I studied the fastest ways to shovel food into your mouth, which is sandwiches, by the way, bread, spaghetti, sandwich, everything sandwich, shove it in your mouth. And I cannot do it. I every time.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
the army owns me, whether that's a training or deployment, I end up on the seriously underweight needs extra rations program because it's impossible. And so we grew up very, very food controlled, which is another thing that cults do. And this has had a lot of lasting effects in my life. I would say for 10 years, I was trying to name this emotion that was

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal) (49:07.714):**  
feeling empty and hollow and kind of see-through and very anxious. And I finally realized that is hunger. And what I have been taught is hunger my whole life is starvation pains. And, you know, part of the struggle, like, well, neurodiversity, I lose my triggers for food when I get anxious. But part of the struggle with me is both from cult followed by army.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
my first reaction when I feel hunger pains is breathe through it. You know, because that is the way I had been trained for basically 28 years of my life.

**Scot Loyd:**  
What is the best way to combat these ideas? Because so many of these ideas have found their way out of the cult. And so it's sort of a chicken and egg conundrum. It's hard to know that the culture influenced the cults or are the cults influencing the culture with these ideas because they're so prevalent, right? And we're bombarded with images every day, whether it's advertising, movies, the standard for women in the United States. so

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal) (51:07

.692):**  
The best way to combat these ideas in your estimation. You know, the sort of meta understanding that's the most helpful, think, is like understanding that like black and white dichotomies are always a lie.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
You know, no process works for everyone. No process is right for everyone. No group is the only group that does something. No person is the only person that has figured this out. Elon Musk is not going to take us to Mars when every other scientist has failed to figure out a biodome. Just like a 19-year-old Stanford dropout wasn't going to solve the hardest blood testing question that, you know, the world scientists can't do.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
So anytime you're presented with a dichotomy or we're trying to police ourselves as a dichotomy, intellectually knowing, I think that's wrong. So for me, that has been, I have a little mantra of there are many ways to live a life. Because that is really what we're being taught in cults, that there is one right way to do just about everything. And every rule you have in a cult, that is the only way.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
And black and white thinking is easier in so many ways. And so so many of us like fall into that. You know, come out of black and white thinking and the world is incredibly scary. So you find it, you go back in, even if that's finding a new one that you think is less harmful. So that is one thing for me. And then the other thing about this, you know, skinny question, body standards question, beauty.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
Is for me has just been understanding just how much it is tied to racism and white supremacy. And there's a really wonderful book called "Fearing the Black Body" by Dr. Sabrina Strings. And she like traces it through all of this. And I, you know, I don't know, that's something that works for me. One of the things that has helped me the most because I know how

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
want to be an anti racist is understanding that this concept came in directly through, you know, eugenics and all this stuff we've been talking about proving that we are better. and then one that my therapist tells me, but I don't know, is just like, you just, you understand that you're doing this as an fu to the cults, you are eating as an fu to the cults, you are being ugly, you are being

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
All the things you're not supposed to be, which is very difficult because society also tells us we're supposed to be that. So those are my main tips.

**Scot Loyd:**  
And speaking of FU to the cults, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention your t-shirt that you're wearing today. She's a Jezebel. And maybe for those that don't know, at least in my experience, Jezebel...

**Scot Loyd:**  
this woman that is depicted in an Old Testament story as someone who puts on makeup with the expressed desire to seduce and to derail the efforts of quote unquote, the man of God, Elijah the prophet, and to seduce her husband, the king, and all of these issues. I've often wondered if that story had said that Jezebel took a bath. Would that have been the thing that bad women do, right? They take a bath. But in our experience, it was, you can't put on makeup because that's something a Jezebel would do. And so now this idea of a Jezebel is any divergent woman that does anything against the system.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal) (53:27.854):**  
Exactly. And that's what keeps the skinny white woman in line, right? So in evangelical or a lot of Christian traditions, JW and not Mormons I don't think but that that Jezebel literally is used right as the threat because if you're the woman that's Intentionally acting out you're the Jezebel but even if you're the woman that's just standing out Because of natural things that you can't help whether that's appearance or personality like you're the Jezebel right and that is the the weapon So I have a lot of shirts actually and if you like any of my shirts, you can always get them the links are

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
I'll try to wear a relevant one for episodes as I can. But you know, I have shirts that say backslider, which is what we were called, we called people that left the cult in the children of God or systemite, which is what we call the outsiders. And I think part of all of this is understanding that the cult's threat is not real. You know, being a Jezebel is as much of a personality trope that you don't have to choose.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal) (55:46.466):**  
being a skinny white woman. And you know, and also if you do choose this, there's nothing, you know, necessarily harmful either. But yes, she's been very much the demonized, right? Jezebel, Eve. I have a t-shirt that says, Delilah, get your scissors. And I have something about Eve in the apple, but I can't remember.

**Scot Loyd:**  
Absolutely. And there's something about Jezebel, you know, it's even evolved now in evangelical circles. where it's a condemnation of men, right? So now they call it a quote unquote Jezebel spirit. And I'm like, you know, these internet pastors that get up and call a group of men like one did recently as having a Jezebel spirit. I'm wondering, why can't you just call out the behavior of men instead of weaponizing the behavior of women that you see as bad and evil?

**Scot Loyd:**  
and then turning that on men. So that's another function of the patriarchy.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal) (57:04.418):**  
Yeah. And you know, that's really what's at play here is that like when you have a hierarchy, each group is invested in holding up that hierarchy because they don't want to slip down a rock. You know, so there are a be compared to a woman, like we all inherently know that being a woman is worse. My wonder was because we call them the weaker sex for so long. Yeah, who knows could have come from any. And so that can be a threat against men too. And I will tell you that getting my husband into lace button down shirts and flowery shirts was a big part of my ultimate radicalization plan. But to do so I very much had

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
tell him that nobody was gonna question his masculinity. Like you're a retired special operations helicopter pilot. I think you can wear a lace shirt with a leather vest and you're gonna be okay. You know, clothing is so, so, so important. There's a reason that coercive control is always appearance policing because owning your appearance and presenting yourself to the world the way you want to simply because you choose to do it. You know, I'm gonna go

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
after this dressed exactly like this. And people are like, why are you wearing this? Like, because I woke up and I was the adult today and I realized I could decide what I wanted to wear out of my closet with no rules. So I did. And just that, right? The clothes you wear absolutely change everything about the way that the world reacts to you, the way that you react to the world. So.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
Realizing what the rules were, what you were being policed for, and then kind of doing the opposite of that is a really constructive thing that you can do for deconstructing. Like it's not all just rebellion and acting out, but there's some of this that is very intentional that we can all do to rip out those bad stitches that the cult folks put in our minds.

**Scot Loyd:**  
Well said. And on that helpful note, I want to encourage all of our listeners and viewers again to follow Daniella, go to her online store, purchase a t-shirt, get the book "Uncultured," educate yourself because that's one of the best ways to combat these particular groups. Educate yourself, prepare yourself for what's out there and develop that critical thinking. And do us a favor, if you like the podcast, which what's not to like, make sure you hit that button, like it, subscribe to it, share it with a friend, leave a comment that helps us gain an audience here on the podcast. And we're very appreciative. Daniella, thank you so much as always.

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
Thank you, Scot.

**Scot Loyd:**  
All right. For Daniella Mestyanek Young, I'm Scot Loyd. We'll see you on the next episode of "Cults and the Culting of America." Thank you for joining us for this episode of "Cults and the Culting of America."

**Daniella (Group Behavior Gal):**  
Be sure and follow Daniella on social media and subscribe to her Patreon page for exclusive content that you won't find anywhere else. Pick up her book "Uncultured." Until next time, I'm Scot Loyd for Daniella Mestyanek Young. We'll see you on the next episode of "Cults and the Culting of America."

In this episode of "Cults and the Culting of America," hosts Scot Loyd and Daniella Mestyanek Young delve into the concept of charismatic leadership within cults. They begin by discussing how the idea of a charismatic leader is often associated with cults, highlighting that many of these leaders are typically perceived as white males. Daniella explains that while cults have been largely defined by white western academics, the underlying structure of patriarchy predates even white supremacy and capitalism, making it a fundamental aspect of coercive control in cults.

The conversation touches on notable examples of charismatic leaders, including Keith Raniere, David Berg, and Jim Jones, as well as Elizabeth Holmes and Adam Neumann. Daniella emphasizes that charismatic authority is not just about charm but involves qualities that make people grant these leaders extraordinary influence. She discusses how these leaders often transition from being charismatic figures to being deified by their followers, creating a system where their personal mythology becomes integral to the group's identity.

Scot and Daniella explore the psychological and social mechanisms that make individuals susceptible to charismatic leaders. They discuss the concept of "front-of-the-room advantage," where the mere act of being in a position of authority can make a person seem more credible and likable. They also highlight the role of rhetoric and persuasive communication in enhancing a leader's influence, noting how leaders use techniques like "trance talk" to captivate and manipulate their audience.

The episode concludes with a discussion on the importance of critical thinking and diverse social connections in protecting oneself from falling prey to cult-like influence. Daniella shares her "guru gotcha" checklist, a tool she developed to help identify potential red flags in leaders and groups. Both hosts stress the need for self-awareness and skepticism, encouraging listeners to examine the charismatic leaders in their lives critically. They also preview upcoming episodes, including an exploration of the role of the "skinny white woman" in cult dynamics and the broader impact of group psychology on individual behavior.

Links: 

• Daniella Mestyanek Young's book: From Bookshop.org
• A Signed Copy of Uncultured: 
• The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Disagree About Religion and Politics by Jonathan Haidt
• Influence: The Power of Persuasion by Dr. Robert Cialdini
• Scarred by Sarah Edmondson
• Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari
• Dr. Janja Lalich's work and resources on cults and coercive control
• Connect with Daniella on social media
  • TikTok, Patreon, Instagram 
  • Youtube
• Connect with Scot Loyd's social media  (TikTok)
• Daniella's other podcast: Hey White Women

**Keywords**: cult, cult leader, people, charismatic leader, leader, purity, call, Daniella, woman, rhetoric, groups, skinny, idea, charisma, religion, white, followers, book, white male, life

Transcript:

**Speaker 1**: This is Cults and the Culting of America, a podcast with scholar of cults, extreme groups, and extremely bad leadership, Daniella Mestyanek Young.

**Scot Loyd**: Welcome to Cults and the Culting of America podcast. I'm Scot Loyd, along with my friend Daniella Mestyanek Young. Daniella, how are you today?

**Daniella**: Doing good! I'm excited to talk about charismatic leadership because everybody gets confused by this one.

**Scot**: Did I get "Mestyanek" right this time?

**Daniella**: Yes, you did. Very good.

**Scot**: You were telling me during your time in the army that there were some gentlemen who were actually afraid to mispronounce it.

**Daniella**: Yeah, I always joke that people thought I was so scary because, in the army, that's how you have to present yourself if you're a woman. People were so scared of me that everyone just learned how to pronounce Mestyanek. It wasn't until my very last unit that people started calling me Captain M, which would be more normal in the US military when you have a complicated name.

**Scot**: Nice. My name is Scot Loyd, a little less complicated—one T and one L. I like to joke that my family couldn't afford the extra consonants. But here we are today, and I'm thrilled that all of you are along for the ride. Last time we were together, Daniella, we unpacked a little bit about your 10 characteristics of a cult. The first one on that list is something that, if you asked people what they associate with a cult or a cult group, they would come up with: the charismatic leader. So, what do we need to understand about the charismatic leader's role in a cult? And am I wrong to assume that most of these charismatic leaders are white males?

**Daniella**: First of all, the acknowledgment that cults have been largely defined by white academics, white western academics. When we actually start looking at what we're really talking about—when individuals come under the coercive control of a group—those leaders can look like a lot of things. But the OG cult system, even before white supremacy and capitalism, is patriarchy. Coercive control, the way we see it in our world, is tacked right along patriarchy. We'll talk about this in next week's episode on the "skinny white woman" who's in parentheses next to the cult leader in white-led American cults. When women are the cult leaders, as happened in my cult, Children of God, they still have to fight patriarchy, so they have to fight harder, and society celebrates more when they go down.

In my charismatic leader chapter in my forthcoming book, *The Culting of America*, we are looking at your typical white male cult leaders you think of—Keith Raniere, David Berg of Children of God, Jim Jones of Jonestown. We're also looking at Elizabeth Holmes of Theranos, David Petraeus of the military, and Adam Neumann of WeWork. Elizabeth Holmes is an example of someone who still had to fight harder to build her cult and maintain control than a man would have. She had to have a man next to her giving her validity, and society really celebrates much harder when she goes down and demands justice in ways they don't for men like Adam Neumann, who walked away with billions of dollars while she walked away with a jail sentence.

**Scot**: And that's interesting when we talk about the idea of charisma, especially in the context of the United States. For a large part of my career, I served as a communications professor. One of the subjects I taught every semester was group dynamics and leadership, where we looked at how a group develops. What do we look at when we define the term leadership? In a cult or cultish-like group, these characteristics become magnified and are leveraged to manipulate others for harm. How do we define charisma? For a long time in the United States, if you were taller than everyone else, that was defined as charisma. Think of Abraham Lincoln, right?

**Daniella**: The first problem is there are two things that charisma means, and we only think of one of them. We almost always think charisma equals charming, and also tall. It is true that more CEOs are tall. Taylor Swift is very tall. People always tell me I have tall energy when they realize I'm only five-five. I think it's this larger-than-life thing. But the reality is, when we are saying charismatic leader, we're talking about charismatic authority. Max Weber defined this concept. He secularized something he saw from religion: we give people authority over us due to some qualities, some extra-human, extraordinary qualities they have. He defines two types of authority: power and violence authority, and charismatic authority.

In any situation where you are given power because of qualities about you, that job, that degree, you are in a position of charismatic authority. It's not just charm. Cult leaders often are not charming. A lot of times, they're bumbling idiots, but they're good at traits we associate with charm and charisma in our minds. For example, something called trance talk—saying a bunch of interesting-sounding, smart-sounding things, jumping from topic to topic. In *The Vow*, you see Keith Raniere doing this. People don't catch on. By the way, ask me what my secret was when I didn't know how to answer essay questions in college. My secret was to write three more paragraphs. The professor will forget you didn't actually answer the question. That's what cult leaders do. They eventually start turning themselves from charismatic leaders into gods. That's when we see people emulating their qualities, celebrating their birthdays like a holiday.

**Scot**: And it's a very predictable road to deification as well. I'm laughing because that was common for me growing up in the United Pentecostal Church. The leader of the church, our pastor, who was exclusively a white male, was always venerated. His birthday was celebrated, any special days for the pastoral family. Evangelicals even have Pastor Appreciation Month in October. If you were a good parishioner, you were supposed to laud all these accolades, gifts, money, and vacations on your leader.

**Daniella**: We also see the mythologizing of the leader's origin story or the group's origin story. For example, I have two college degrees, and at no point did I know who the president of the university was until I had to meet him because I was the valedictorian. Why do you need to know who the leader of Bob Jones University is? When you start seeing pictures of the leader everywhere—US military looking right at you—that's part of deification and the weapon of likability and familiarity. We are friendlier towards people we are familiar with. When you walk in every morning and see your commander's face on the wall, they become more charismatic to you, and you are more likely to feel warmly toward them when you actually see them. It's why we think it's appropriate to walk up to an actress or actor in real life and introduce ourselves. We feel like we know them and love them because of that familiarity. These patterns are not original. Dr. Janja Lalich says they all went to the same Messiah school.

**Scot**: You bring up exceptionalism. Not only does the leader think they are exceptional, but cult leaders play with terms like destiny and fate. Destiny has a wonderful connotation; everyone wants to embrace their destiny and avoid their fate. Cult leaders create a negative fate like hell or some version of hell—poverty, unpopularity, loneliness. They create their version of heaven and say, "Follow me, and you'll fulfill your destiny and avoid this fate."

**Daniella**: Yes, and with the destiny thing, they always blame individuals for systemic problems. If anything good happens, it's the cult or the leader. If anything bad happens, it's you. This trains you to think this way. I realized that cult leaders often promise something in another life, world, plane, body, or state. You can't reach enlightenment because it's a con. The cult leader knows it's a con. It's significant that Jim Jones didn't drink the Kool-Aid; he died from a bullet to the head. Cult leaders get caught up in their own hullabaloo, but their followers believe in the ends justifying the means. The cult leader knows the whole time. When we look back at all those cult leaders, we can see that since childhood, they are manipulating, building their worldview, and trying to build something with a following.

**Scot**: Cult leaders exploit the need within all of us to think of ourselves as exceptional, to think our lives have meaning and purpose. The loudest and most bold among us are often the most insecure. Human nature makes us follow loud, bold people, especially if they promise purpose and meaning. They also have the stick of punishment—eternal damnation, poverty, loneliness. Follow them, and you'll avoid this fate.

**Daniella**: Right, I call it the front-of-the-room advantage. When you're in an audience and hear someone introduced as the speaker, you think they're impressive. I teach veterans in my networking classes to put themselves in front of the mic as often as they can. People will believe someone put them there. If nobody else is questioning around you, that's social proof. Cult leaders rely on this heavily. They'll flabbergast you and

 keep going. If nobody else is saying anything, you think it must be okay. When we started studying cults, we believed humans were much more rational than they are. "I think, therefore I am," like René Descartes really screws us over a bit. Humans are not rational; we hardly ever make decisions based on logic. We make most of our decisions based on recency bias and social proof. What worked for us most recently or what everyone else around us is doing. These evolutionary drives keep you alive. This comes into play with the charismatic leader. Some bigger cults have been through a thing called routinization. Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses will say, "We're not a cult; no charismatic leader." If you have to use a loophole to get out of the definition of a cult, we have an answer now, and it's called charisma by proxy. We now know large groups of people can go down illogical paths without calling each other out on it.

**Scot**: There's a good resource that unpacks that further—*The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Disagree About Religion and Politics* by Jonathan Haidt, a moral psychologist. One of the best books I’ve read on this. In public speaking, I tell my students, "With great power comes great responsibility." Public speaking is the number one fear in America. Seinfeld joked people would rather be in the box at a funeral than give the eulogy. But if you manage that apprehension, you set yourself apart. For our listeners, to make students less susceptible to cults, get them involved in debate. It’s a great activity. You can't rely solely on charismatic skills; logic is involved. It takes you out of the binary world and helps you see all possibilities. High control groups want you locked into binary thinking—"my way or hell."

**Daniella**: The first thing anyone will say if you call a group they love a cult is, "Not a cult, free to leave anytime." That line is both loaded language and a thought-stopping cliché. It's not true. Cults have high entrance and exit costs—not always money. It's anything you lose if you're not in the group. In both the cult and the military I grew up in, leaders would say, "This is not a democracy." You are reminded everything you have can be gone if you disagree. People say, "Oh, you're free to leave anytime." I say, "Do you love everything about your job? No? Why don't you just leave?"

**Scot**: Exactly. When we talk about charisma and the charismatic leader, I thought about good questions to ask if evaluating whether a leader is a cult leader. These are good questions for any leader. One is, what platform of privilege are they speaking from that gives them this advantage? In our society, patriarchy and white supremacy give white males a place of status. The system was produced by people like me, a white male, for my benefit. It's important to acknowledge that. If your leader isn’t doing that, maybe that’s a problem.

**Daniella**: Social media has been good for cult leaders. It helps people get into and out of cults. I say that in the 60s and 70s, when my grandfather joined the Children of God, if you wanted to isolate an American citizen, you had to take them away to your compound in Texas or Brazil because we all watched the same TV shows, listened to the same news. Even if you were on polar opposite sides of an issue, you shared this reality. These days, isolation can just be in your bedroom on a computer, and you can totally be in a cult. It has shifted things.

I built a "guru gotcha" checklist to keep myself in check. Anybody who knows a lot about cult leaders and bad guys is dangerous. People say, "Should we be scared of you?" Yes, if I invite you to my compound, maybe say no. I fought the social media thing because I don't like the concept of influencers. I make sure 50% of my content comes from others. I want people to see that. Here's the "guru gotcha" checklist:

1. Heavy focus on your own uniqueness.

2. Intense come-here-go-away behavior to keep you off balance.

3. Always asking you to prove your loyalty.

4. Lack of intellectual humility or willingness to learn from others.

5. Constantly blurring the edges of their expertise.

6. Trance talk.

7. Asking followers to pay for their essence, presence, or energy.

8. Handing out life advice they are not qualified to give.

9. Some form of purity from their followers.

10. Intense appearance and attitude control of followers.

11. Talking poorly about other leaders in their industry.

12. Blaming systemic failures on individual action.

13. Blurred sexual boundaries or using young women or men to entice followers.

14. Requesting followers to leave their jobs and follow them.

15. Threatens you when you leave or speak poorly of them.

**Scot**: That’s a lot to talk about. Let's return to purity and power. Growing up in the United Pentecostal Church, purity and power were hallmarks. Policing behavior, dress, and hairstyles of women were emphasized. It was steeped in white supremacy. The skinny white woman was the ideal image. Purity was about maintaining the look of the 1930s and 1940s—no jewelry, no makeup, no cutting hair. This was preached as giving power and authority with angels and God.

**Daniella**: Purity requirements are in every situation of coercive control. They’re not just sexual purity but any black-and-white rule. I explain it like this: I don't eat wheat because I'm allergic to it, so it's a black-and-white rule but not a purity requirement. Groups that don't eat gluten for health are under purity. Purity requirements are crucial because they make people police each other and themselves. They are impossible because humans are bad at being perfect and pure. Cult leaders themselves never follow purity requirements. They are for everyone else. They turn you into your own jailer. Purity requirements are usually time-consuming and keep you busy. Skinny is a powerful purity requirement in our society. It’s a visual presentation of sacrifice.

**Scot**: Speaking of purity culture, in the United Pentecostal Church, there was a big emphasis on women's behavior and bodies. There wasn’t that emphasis for men. You shared part of your story in *Uncultured*—a sex cult. How did the leaders reconcile purity culture?

**Daniella**: In the Children of God, the purity requirement was you couldn’t say no. You were not trusting God if you said no. You were letting your individuality and desires interfere. There was a comic called "The Girl Who Wouldn’t" training us from a young age. Outside the cult, I didn’t know how to say no. Purity requirements in the Children of God involved no underwear while sleeping, women not wearing bras. Skinny is one of the most powerful purity requirements. Cult leaders want to keep you isolated, tired, busy, skinny, pregnant, and hungry. Sometimes it’s the opposite of skinny. Scientology forced abortions. Heaven’s Gate had no sex, no children. It’s about controlling sex, not purity. Any organization telling consenting adults who they can and can’t sleep with is controlling.

**Scot**: I appreciate you sharing that. Let’s return to the idea of rhetoric. Charismatic leaders harness rhetoric's power. Hitler is a classic example, although his style of speaking seems like just yelling. Symbolic Convergence Theory by Ernest Bormann from the University of Minnesota theorizes that people develop and move forward around ideas communicated effectively by leaders. These rhetorical visions organize and control civilization. How is a rhetorical vision cast in cults, and how do we insulate ourselves from falling prey?

**Daniella**: I love *Sapiens* by Yuval Noah Harari. Religions, corporations, organizations—all these groups are stories we tell ourselves. Religions are stories societies craft to explain things. Cults are not religions; they are cons from day one. Elizabeth Holmes knew she wasn’t transforming blood testing. Cults are about the leader’s control. Religions aim for society to work; cults don’t. Religions are not comparable to cults. Religions are useful to cult leaders because they require faith, which can be manipulated.

**Scot**: Manipulation vs. motivation is a key difference. Motivation is mutually beneficial; manipulation benefits only the leader. Consensual sales involve providing actual products that help people. Manipulations involve false promises. Understanding this helps identify manipulation.

**Daniella**: Anyone who knows about cult leaders can become one. Wake up every day and choose to use your rhetorical skills for good, not to manipulate. Jim Jones could have been remembered as an early civil rights leader if he died in the 1950s. Instead, he chose to use his skills for evil. Charismatic leaders must choose daily to use their influence for good.

**Scot**: Engaging in competitive debate helps build critical thinking. It challenges prevailing assumptions and teaches you to look at other positions. If you’re in a space where everyone agrees with you, you’re susceptible to harm. Ideas must be challenged to avoid trauma.

**Daniella**: Social connections are crucial. Make sure your children have diverse social connections that don’t overlap. High exit costs make leaving hard. Cancel culture isn’t real; it’s consequence culture. Diversifying connections helps navigate challenges. Understanding your own biases and staying agnostic about being the good guy is crucial. Cults thrive on binary thinking.

**Scot**: In our concluding episodes, we’ll talk about the importance of groups and community. Next episode, we'll explore the role of the "skinny white woman" next

 to the charismatic leader.

**Daniella**: Thanks for listening with open minds. Think about the charismatic leaders in your life. It’s not about labeling but learning to navigate groups and systems. Find us on social media. We’ll be doing this podcast every week.

**Scot**: Thank you. Like, subscribe, and share the podcast to help us reach more people. For Daniella Mestyanek Young, I’m Scot Loyd. See you on the next episode of Cults and the Culting of America.

**Outro**: Thank you for joining us for this episode of Cults and the Culting of America. Follow Daniella on social media and subscribe to her Patreon for exclusive content. Pick up her book *Uncultured*. Until next time, I’m Scot Loyd for Daniella Mestyanek Young.

Summary

In this conversation, Scott Loyd and Daniella engage with Haley Griffith, who shares her transformative journey from supporting Donald Trump to embracing liberal values. The discussion delves into the psychological aspects of political allegiance, the complexities surrounding issues like abortion, and the dynamics of cult-like behavior in political movements. Haley reflects on her experiences, the influence of friendships, and the gradual realization of the need for nuanced perspectives in political discourse. In this conversation, the speakers discuss the complexities of voting, particularly in relation to marginalized communities and the binary nature of American politics. They explore the importance of humanizing those with differing political views, reflecting on events like January 6th and the need for compassion in political discourse. The discussion also touches on the potential for change in Texas and the cult-like dynamics of the two-party system, emphasizing the need for a pluralistic society that respects diverse beliefs.

Daniella Mestyanek Young's book: 

• From Bookshop.org

• Uncultured Autograph: 

Connect with Daniella on social media 

• TikTok, Patreon, Instagram 

• Youtube

• Connect with Scot Loyd's social media  (TikTok)

• Daniella's other podcast: Hey White Women

In this conversation, Dr. Kerry McAvoy discusses her experiences with narcissistic abuse, the psychological implications of narcissism, and the societal impact of charismatic leaders. The discussion delves into the dynamics of cult-like behavior in politics, the challenges of cognitive dissonance, and the importance of personal identity and healing from toxic relationships. Dr. McAvoy shares insights on the spectrum of narcissism, the significance of vulnerability, and offers resources for those seeking to recover from abusive situations.

Daniella Mestyanek Young's book: 

• From Bookshop.org

• Uncultured Autograph: 

Connect with Daniella on social media 

• TikTok, Patreon, Instagram 

• Youtube

• Connect with Scot Loyd's social media  (TikTok)

• Daniella's other podcast: Hey White Women

Takeaways

• Narcissism can manifest in various forms, including in political leadership.
• Cognitive dissonance plays a significant role in justifying unhealthy relationships.
• Healing from toxic relationships requires self-discovery and understanding personal identity.
• Vulnerability is essential for authentic connections and relationships.
• Cults often exploit human desires for belonging and acceptance.
• The importance of setting boundaries in relationships cannot be overstated.
• Self-reflection is crucial in recognizing narcissistic traits within oneself.
• Healing is a process that involves learning to express emotions and needs.
• Understanding the dynamics of narcissism can help in recognizing abusive patterns.
• Resources such as podcasts and workbooks can aid in recovery from narcissistic abuse.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Context of the Conversation
06:13 Personal Experiences with Narcissism
17:00 Cognitive Dissonance and Justification
23:06 Narcissism as a Spectrum
29:14 Transactional Relationships and Echoism
36:49 The Illusion of Uniqueness in Cults
45:31 Overcoming Emotional Numbness and Building Boundaries
51:16 Learning to Coexist: Embracing Differences
56:16 Resources for Healing and Recovery

Produced by: Haley Phillips

Summary

The conversation explores the exploitation of labor in cults and its impact on individuals. It delves into the reasons why labor is at the center of cults, including the pursuit of power, financial gain, and the whitewashing of cult activities. The discussion also highlights the role of labor in high control religious groups and the manipulation of children to represent the group's ideals. The conversation expands to include the exploitation of labor in corporations and the systemic nature of labor exploitation in the United States. It concludes by examining the long-lasting effects of labor exploitation on individuals' mental and physical health. In this conversation, Daniella and Scot discuss the exploitation of labor and the pressure to constantly work. They explore how cults and other high-control groups use labor as a means of control and how this mindset is perpetuated in society. They also touch on the importance of self-care and the need to break free from the transactional nature of relationships. The conversation highlights the negative consequences of constant labor and the importance of setting healthy boundaries.

Daniella Mestyanek Young's book: 

• From Bookshop.org

• Uncultured Autograph: 

Connect with Daniella on social media 

• TikTok, Patreon, Instagram 

• Youtube

• Connect with Scot Loyd's social media  (TikTok)

Daniella's other podcast: Hey White Women

Takeaways

Cults often exploit labor as a means of gaining power and financial resources.
Children are particularly vulnerable to labor exploitation in cults and high control religious groups.
Labor exploitation is not limited to religious organizations and can also occur in corporations.
The systemic exploitation of labor has long-lasting effects on individuals' mental and physical health. Cults and high-control groups use labor as a means of control and exploitation.
Society perpetuates the idea that constant work and productivity are necessary for success.
Self-care and setting healthy boundaries are essential for mental and emotional well-being.
The transactional nature of relationships can lead to disappointment and dissatisfaction.
The pressure to constantly work and achieve can result in burnout and negative health consequences.

### Summary of Cults and the Culting of America Podcast - Episode on Transcendent Mission

In this episode of "Cults and the Culting of America," hosts Scot Loyd and Daniella Mestyanek Young delve into the concept of the transcendent mission within cults and high-control groups. They discuss how cult leaders use vague, life-and-death missions to manipulate and retain followers. These missions often promise fulfillment in an unprovable future, making followers feel unique and superior, thus willing to self-sacrifice and endure hardships.

Daniella differentiates the transcendent mission from the sacred assumption, explaining that while the sacred assumption is an unspoken belief (e.g., the leader being the smartest or chosen one), the mission is what recruits and keeps people dedicated. The mission is rarely practical and constantly evolving, ensuring followers never feel they've fully achieved it.

The hosts also touch on the importance of recognizing the signs of manipulative missions, such as their vagueness, constant change, and exclusivity. Daniella advises that it’s okay for individuals to focus on their own well-being and happiness instead of falling prey to manipulative missions.

Daniella Mestyanek Young's book: 

·       From Bookshop.org

• Uncultured Autograph: 

Connect with Daniella on social media

• TikTok, Patreon, Instagram 
• Youtube
• Connect with Scot Loyd's social media  (TikTok)
• Daniella's other podcast: Hey White Women

**Hosts:** Daniella Mestyanek Young and Scot Loyd

**Topic:** The Transcendent Mission in Cults and High-Control Groups

**Overview:**
In this episode, Daniella and Scot discuss the concept of the "transcendent mission" and how it is used by cult leaders and high-control groups to manipulate and control their followers. They delve into the differences between the transcendent mission and the sacred assumption, the tactics used to recruit and retain followers, and the personal experiences of both hosts in various high-control environments.

**Key Points:**

1. **Introduction to the Transcendent Mission:**
   - Cult leaders create a transcendent mission to recruit and retain followers by promising a higher purpose or goal that often cannot be proven or achieved in this lifetime.
   - The mission is usually vague, large-scale, and tied to life and death, making it compelling and difficult to question.

2. **Difference Between Transcendent Mission and Sacred Assumption:**
   - The sacred assumption is an underlying, often unspoken belief that followers must accept to remain in good standing.
   - The transcendent mission is the outward goal or purpose that the group is supposedly working towards, often used as a recruitment tool.

3. **Manipulation Tactics:**
   - Cult leaders use the transcendent mission to justify extreme actions and sacrifices from their followers.
   - Examples include religious cults promising salvation or enlightenment, and organizations like the military or corporations using missions to motivate self-sacrifice and loyalty.

4. **Personal Experiences:**
   - Daniella shares her experiences in the Children of God cult and the US Army, highlighting the similarities in how both groups used a transcendent mission to control members.
   - Scot discusses his upbringing in the United Pentecostal Church and how the promise of witnessing the return of Jesus was used to motivate followers.

5. **Challenges of Deconstruction:**
   - Leaving a high-control group often involves losing a sense of mission and purpose, which can be terrifying and disorienting.
   - Both hosts emphasize the importance of finding a new, personal mission that prioritizes individual well-being and happiness.

6. **Misconceptions About Good and Bad Cults:**
   - Daniella argues that there is no such thing as a "good cult" because the core mechanism of coercive control and self-sacrifice is inherently harmful.
   - They discuss organizations like Alcoholics Anonymous, which may have cult-like elements despite their seemingly positive mission.

7. **Education and Awareness:**
   - Educating people, especially youth, about the signs of coercive control and the tactics used by cult leaders is crucial.
   - Recognizing the red flags, such as claims of unique knowledge or promises of easy solutions to complex problems, can help individuals avoid falling into high-control groups.

**Conclusion:**
Daniella and Scot encourage listeners to prioritize their own well-being and question any group or leader that demands extreme self-sacrifice or claims to have all the answers. They highlight the importance of education, critical thinking, and self-defined values in resisting manipulation and control.

**Resources:**
- Daniella's book *Uncultured*
- Daniella's Patreon project *UnAmerican*
- Follow Daniella and Scot on TikTok for more discussions on cults and high-control groups.

In this episode of Cults and the Culting of America, Beatrice Weber shares her profound journey growing up in the Hasidic community, detailing the strict beliefs and practices that shaped her life. She discusses the impact of historical trauma on her community, the role of women, and her experiences with arranged marriage. Beatrice reflects on her decision to leave the community after years of confusion and struggle, and she now focuses on education reform for Jewish children. Her story is one of resilience, courage, and the ongoing quest for personal freedom and identity.

Daniella's Links:

You can read all about my story in my book, Uncultured-- buy signed copies here. https://bit.ly/SignedUncultured

For more info on me:

Patreon: https://bit.ly/YTPLanding

Cult book Clubs (Advanced AND Memoirs) Annual Membership: https://bit.ly/YTPLanding

Get an autographed copy of my book, Uncultured: https://bit.ly/SignedUncultured

Get my book, Uncultured, from Bookshop.org: https://bit.ly/4g1Ufw8

Daniella’s Tiktok: https://bit.ly/3V6GK6k / KnittingCultLady

Instagram:  https://bit.ly/4ePAOFK / daniellamyoung_ 

Unamerican video book (on Patreon): https://bit.ly/YTVideoBook

Secret Practice video book (on Patreon): https://bit.ly/3ZswGY8

Scot's Links

Connect with Scot Loyd's social media  (TikTok)

Other Podcasts

Daniella's other podcast: Hey White Women

Takeaways

• Beatrice grew up in a high control group within the Hasidic community.
• Understanding cult dynamics helped Beatrice process her experiences.
• The Hasidic community has strict rules around gender roles and education.
• Historical trauma from the Holocaust influences the community's isolationist mindset.
• Women in the Hasidic community often feel like property in arranged marriages.
• Beatrice's marriage was abusive, leading her to seek therapy and support.
• Leaving the community was a complex decision, influenced by her children's well-being.
• Beatrice is now involved in education reform for Hasidic children.
• She emphasizes the importance of choice and individuality in her new life.
• Beatrice maintains a connection to her cultural roots while rejecting fundamentalism.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to the Podcast and Guest
06:19 Understanding High Control Groups
15:59 Education and Control in the Hasidic Community
25:06 The First Night and Wedding Rituals
31:09 The Impact of Ceremonial Control
36:26 Navigating Marriage and Sexuality in Isolation
41:55 The Journey to Leaving an Abusive Marriage
47:23 Life After Leaving: Finding Purpose and Healing
55:05 Reconnecting with Faith and Spirituality

Produced by Haley Phillips

Summary: 

Welcome to "Cults and the Culting of America" podcast. I'm Scot Loyd, and I'm thrilled to be here with Daniella Mestyanek Young. Daniella is a scholar of cults, extreme groups, and extremely bad leadership, as she likes to say. She's also the author of "Uncultured." Daniella, how are you today?

Daniella: I'm doing great, Scot. How about you?

Scot: Fantastic. I'm good, thank you. I'm thrilled to get started with this podcast. Just as a way of introduction, your book "Uncultured" was a phenomenal help to me. I grew up in a small Pentecostal cult known as the United Pentecostal Church, and throughout our podcast, I'll be sharing some of my experiences. But your experiences in the Children of God, a child sex cult, and then in the United States Army, that is an amazing story that you detail for everyone in "Uncultured." Kudos on your work there. I encourage everyone right now, if you haven't read "Uncultured," go get the book. It is a phenomenal read, and it's also on audio for those who prefer listening. And that's the one that got on the New York Times list, right?

Daniella: Absolutely, the audio version. I did it myself.

Scot: Fantastic. For those who might not know your story, could you share a little about your experiences? I'm curious, especially since we've titled this episode "Patriot Pains: I Joined the Army and All I Got Was This Lousy Trauma." How did someone growing up in a child sex cult end up in the United States Army and find similarities between the two groups?

Daniella: Let's dive right into it. The first thing I'll say is that, even though I use the term "sex cult," it's not like a brand of cult. It's just a media term. However, I do believe the Children of God was a sex cult because our primary beliefs revolved around sex. It was impossible to be in the Children of God without knowing about their sexual doctrines. But it's not a different kind of cult; cults are cults, and we will see these patterns in many groups throughout this show.

I was born three generations into the Children of God to people well-established in the leadership. My grandmother donated a house to the leader, David Berg. My grandfather still runs the money. My father was also involved in running the finances, which is a whole story in "Uncultured." I grew up in the center of these leadership homes.

The Children of God started in 1968 in California, like many other cults of that time. David Berg figured out that his unique value proposition would be taking evangelical control of sex, pouring a lot of Mormonism on top of it, and calling it free love. I call it forced polyamory. The Children of God is one of the best rebranding stories, other than the Mormons. In the 80s, it was a harem photo sex cult on the cover of Time Magazine, and in the 90s, we performed twice at the White House.

I was kicked out at 15, and I never fit in. I spent six years between the cult and the Army alone, not fitting in, being manipulated, never finding community. During this time, I excelled academically, doing four years of high school in two years and graduating valedictorian from college. I got into a toxic marriage, another thing I talk about in "Uncultured," which we call a one-on-one cult. These one-on-one cults have many parallels with group cults.

When I joined the Army, I was looking for community and someone to tell me exactly what to do. The Army seemed like a place where I could be a true believer because life outside was too confusing.

Scot: Your experiences, as detailed in "Uncultured," have given you a unique understanding of cults, extreme groups, and extremely bad leadership. You're sharing this on TikTok and other platforms and working on a new book focusing on the broader ramifications of what you've learned.

Daniella: Yes, I'm writing a book breaking down my 10 parts of what makes up a cult. I'll show these behaviors in a real cult, the US military, and other organizations. My perspective is that cults have specific tactics, techniques, and procedures that can be spotted in various groups.

Scot: Share your 10 characteristics of a cult and briefly tell us about each. We'll unpack each of these in future episodes.

Daniella: Sure. The 10 characteristics are:

1. Charismatic Leader: Every cult has a charismatic leader.
2. Worldview: The leader pulls you into their worldview under the sacred assumption.
3. Transcendent Mission: Cults promise something that can't be proven.
4. Continual Self-Sacrifice: Members are expected to constantly sacrifice for the group.
5. Isolation: Cults isolate members in various ways.
6. Distinguishable Vernacular: Cults have their own language.
7. Us vs. Them Mentality: Cults create an enemy to unite against.
8. Exploitation of Labor: Cults exploit members' labor.
9. Entrance Costs: Cults require significant initial investment, making it hard to leave.
10. Ends Justify the Means: Cults justify unethical behavior for their cause.

Scot: Thank you for sharing, Daniella. This is a great introduction to what we'll be discussing in our podcast. For our listeners, be sure to follow Daniella on social media and pick up her book "Uncultured." You can find me on social media at ScottLoyd1T1L and on my blog at ScottLoyd.blog. Thank you for listening to "Cults and the Culting of America." We'll see you next time.

Summary

In this conversation, Daniella and Scot discuss various topics including Daniella's recent trip to Portugal, the us versus them mentality, and the experience of visiting a nude beach. They explore the influence of group norms and how they shape our behavior and perceptions. They also touch on the binary thinking prevalent in American culture and the need for more nuance. The conversation highlights the importance of representation and diversity in leadership roles and challenges the traditional gender roles and expectations. The conversation explores the themes of us versus them mentality, appearance control, and the use of familial language in high control groups. It delves into the experiences of women in the military and the challenges they face in fitting in and being accepted. The conversation also touches on the topic of trans identity and the misconception that it is a cult. The importance of understanding and respecting individual identities and experiences is emphasized. The conversation concludes with a discussion on the dangers of us versus them mentality and the need for open-mindedness and acceptance.

Daniella Mestyanek Young's book:

·       From Bookshop.org

• Uncultured Autograph: 

Connect with Daniella on social media

• TikTok, Patreon, Instagram 
• Youtube
• Connect with Scot Loyd's social media  (TikTok)
• Daniella's other podcast: Hey White Women

In this episode, Dr. Jamie Marich discusses her experiences with spiritual abuse and the dynamics of cults, emphasizing the importance of understanding these issues in therapy. She shares her personal journey of growing up in a high-demand religious environment, the impact of family dynamics, and her path to recovery from addiction. The conversation highlights the significance of storytelling and community support in healing, as well as the role of writing as a therapeutic tool. Dr. Marich also addresses the challenges faced by individuals leaving cult-like environments and the need for mental health professionals to recognize and address spiritual abuse.

Dr. Marich's Links: 

Daniella's Links:

You can read all about my story in my book, Uncultured-- buy signed copies here. https://bit.ly/SignedUncultured

For more info on me:

Patreon: https://bit.ly/YTPLanding

Cult book Clubs (Advanced AND Memoirs) Annual Membership: https://bit.ly/YTPLanding

Get an autographed copy of my book, Uncultured: https://bit.ly/SignedUncultured

Get my book, Uncultured, from Bookshop.org: https://bit.ly/4g1Ufw8

Daniella’s Tiktok: https://bit.ly/3V6GK6k / KnittingCultLady

Instagram:  https://bit.ly/4ePAOFK / daniellamyoung_ 

Unamerican video book (on Patreon): https://bit.ly/YTVideoBook

Secret Practice video book (on Patreon): https://bit.ly/3ZswGY8

Scot's Links

Connect with Scot Loyd's social media  (TikTok)

Other Podcasts

Daniella's other podcast: Hey White Women

Takeaways

• Spiritual abuse is often overlooked in therapy.
• Cults use religion as a tool for control.
• Personal experiences can inform professional practice.
• Storytelling is a powerful healing tool.
• Community support is crucial for recovery.
• Addiction can stem from unprocessed trauma.
• High-demand religions can create toxic family dynamics.
• Writing can be a form of spiritual practice.
• Understanding cult dynamics helps in healing.
• There is a growing movement against high-demand religions.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Spiritual Insights
06:16 Understanding Cult Dynamics
12:30 The Impact of High-Control Groups
18:19 The Intersection of Religion and Mental Health
24:24 Finding Healing Through Connection
30:26 Concluding Thoughts on Healing and Growth
35:30 Navigating Academia and High Control Environments
44:35 Memoir as a Tool for Healing
53:06 Building Community and Resources for Healing

Produced by Haley Phillips

In this episode of *Cults and the Culting of America*, hosts Scot Loyd and Daniella Mestyanek Young delve into the complex dynamics of self-sacrifice within cults and high-control groups. Drawing from their personal experiences and extensive research, they explore how cults exploit their members’ labor under the guise of a transcendent mission, enforce conformity through appearance and attitude control, and manipulate emotions to maintain control. The conversation also touches on the parallels between cult behavior and practices in organizations like the military and corporate America, offering insights into the pervasive influence of cult-like tactics in various aspects of society.

The episode explores key themes such as cults, high-control groups, and the concept of self-sacrifice, delving into how these groups exploit their members' labor under the guise of a transcendent mission. The discussion also touches on the idea of total institutions, where conformity is enforced through appearance and attitude control, and emotional manipulation is used to maintain control over members. By examining parallels between cult behavior and practices in organizations like the military and corporate culture, the hosts highlight the pervasive influence of these tactics in suppressing individual identity and enforcing group dynamics. Topics like cognitive dissonance, patriotism, social control, and the manipulation tactics used by cults are also discussed, providing a comprehensive understanding of the psychological and social mechanisms at play within these environments.

Daniella Mestyanek Young's book:

·       From Bookshop.org

• Uncultured Autograph: 

Connect with Daniella on social media

• TikTok, Patreon, Instagram 
• Youtube
• Connect with Scot Loyd's social media  (TikTok)
• Daniella's other podcast: Hey White Women

**Scot Loyd:** Welcome to the *Cults and the Culting of America* podcast. I'm Scott Loyd along with my friend Daniella Mestyanek Young, and she's written a book called *Uncultured,* which you should pick up. Both of us are cult survivors, and we're working through a list of characteristics that Daniella developed to help all of you, along with us, process and understand our cult experiences, as well as identify cults and high-control groups. So with that introduction, Daniella, which characteristic are we talking about today?

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Thanks so much for the introduction, Scott. Today, we are going to be talking about self-sacrifice. Specifically, in cults, there's the constant and continual self-sacrifice of the members. If you're just joining us, episode one has the whole list of my 10 characteristics that make up a cult, and we're going through each of those in detail.

Self-sacrifice is number four on the list, but it connects very directly to number eight on the list, which is exploitation of labor.

**Scot Loyd:** And you've mentioned before that this is ultimately what cults are all about—free labor, right?

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Exactly. When I heard cult scholar Dr. Janja Lalich say, "Cults are about labor," it broke my brain and gave me a whole different understanding of what I had experienced and why we were doing the things we did. Labor is your one inexhaustible resource. The cult leader is out for power, but the cult itself is about getting your labor. They tell you it’s in pursuit of a transcendent mission, which we covered in episode three.

In the Children of God cult, our mission was saving the world for Jesus before the end times. In the US Army, it was protecting American interests overseas. These missions are so grand and unquestionably good that they allow the cult and its leaders to constantly pull sacrifice from their members.

**Scot Loyd:** You sent me something to read today, and you mentioned a term—quoting Irving Goffman—called a "total institution." I think when we're talking about cults, they certainly qualify as total institutions that seek self-sacrifice to meet their needs and aims through free labor.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Yes, exactly. I was trying to figure out this category for like 10 years. In the Army, when we weren't deployed or away for training, we worked a 6 AM to 6 PM schedule and went home every day. It wasn't that culty. But as soon as we went away together, it became culty. I didn't know how to explain it until I heard of total institutions. Total institutions are places where situated people live and work together, separated from the world, with a formal overlay of life. The military barracks or deployments are textbook examples of total institutions. Other examples include prisons, mental hospitals, hospices, communes, or even a rich person's household like Downton Abbey, which I argue makes the royal family a total institution too.

When you're in a total institution, your job is to put the group first, to tamp down your own identity. That’s the cult experience. Growing up in it impacts your very personality formation, to the point that I was 33 years old when I realized I never got to form a personal identity. That’s the trade-off of growing up in a world where you're always second.

**Scot Loyd:** I remember growing up in the United Pentecostal Church and going to summer camp, where we were isolated from everyone. Total institutions require people to suppress their unique traits or identity. Being tired and exhausted makes people highly susceptible to emotional manipulation. That’s exactly what we experienced at these summer youth camps.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** That’s a perfect example of a total institution that you can participate in without committing your whole life. For the months you're at summer camp, it's very similar to when a military unit deploys for a year. Even in corporations, when you go off together for a weekend or a week at a yearly offsite, it’s more of a culty experience than regular work. The removal from the world is a significant part of it. Group norms become much more important and rigid when there’s no connection to the outside world.

**Scot Loyd:** That became very apparent at youth camp. Even if you weren’t familiar with the group’s behavior, a few hours at the camp, and you’d be acclimated to the group culture. You wrote something profound about how conformity is rewarded, and any kind of independent thought is punished. Whether it's in the Children of God, the United Pentecostal Church, or even the US Army, you quickly learn to acclimate, conform, and fit in to avoid standing out.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Exactly, not standing out is crucial. This is how they start getting you to self-sacrifice. It’s not just a side effect of cults and their mission; it's a primary part of breaking you down. The primary part of identity-breaking indoctrination is getting you into a state where you always put the group first without even thinking. In doing so, you're getting rid of everything that makes you, you. This is often achieved through powerful tools like appearance control and attitude control.

**Scot Loyd:** Let’s talk more about that. A lot of attention is given to exit costs in cults, but you talk about entrance costs, which include the regulation of hair, body size, body coverage, and even underwear. These are high entrance costs that ensure group conformity.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Yes, it's like a total makeover. It's funny to me that people aren't more suspicious of this. When someone moves away, gets wrapped up in a group, and suddenly their whole look and way of talking changes, that’s a sign. The group enforces conformity because that’s how you get everyone doing the same thing. We often stereotype cults as having uniforms, and sometimes they do. Heaven's Gate famously wore the same thing. We think of white robes or the military uniform, which has pages of regulations. It’s all about looking like a six-foot-tall, blonde, blue-eyed American male soldier. The further away you are from that demographic, especially in appearance, the more you stand out. And standing out is the number one rule you don't want to break.

With appearance control, we almost always see regulations around hair, body size, body coverage, and underwear. Starting with hair, think of the first day in the military—buzz cut. Only the men, though. So immediately, women stand out. It’s a moment where they’re showing you, "We own you." Hair is so crucial to coercive control. For most of us, we’ve never seen our own bald heads, so they’re exposing the only part of you that you haven’t even seen naked. I advise men to shave their own heads before joining the military to have that moment of ownership. Hair control is always about controlling attitude. In the Children of God, for example, you weren’t supposed to cut your hair because it was supposed to be a vessel of God’s love. It wasn’t about the hair; it was about how you were supposed to behave with the long biblical hair.

**Scot Loyd:** In the United Pentecostal Church where I grew up, women were also required to wear their hair uncut, often in similar hairstyles. You talk about the emphasis on a bun in the military, a hairstyle that made it difficult for women to do their job, but was still embraced. It wasn’t really about appearance but about regulating behavior. Sermons often tied the submission of women to men to their uncut hair. So, you're right—it had very little to do with appearance and everything to do with controlling behavior.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Exactly. The cult always gives you a reason for these controls that aren’t about behavior. In the military, they say it’s for lice control. But shaving heads doesn’t get rid of lice, and I’ve never heard of gender-based lice that don’t infect women. Same with beards—they claim it’s for gas mask sealing, but then why do special forces guys have beards? It’s about appearance. And this extends into regular America through concepts like professionalism. In the Army, the parallel is "standards." The standard is X, and you need to be this to be professional. In the chapter, I quote the Southern Poverty Law Center, which says professionalism is just racism under another name. It’s there to arbitrate behavior and make you change yourself to fit a mold.

People don’t often realize how much work goes into looking "professional," especially for those who don’t fit the mold. Women, especially, are taught that hair, beauty, jewelry, makeup—all the things that are controlled—are frivolous. But if they were frivolous, we wouldn’t see them being controlled in coercive environments.

**Scot Loyd:** These groups are enforcing constructed identities that aren't authentic to who a person is. They regulate appearance to make it easier for these constructed identities to be sacrificed for the cause. You’re expected to give up your authentic self for the group.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Absolutely. You mentioned the word "arbitrary," and that’s my soapbox. In studying groups and systems, I find that any regulation or legislation that’s arbitrarily applied is used to oppress the least powerful demographics. For example, the main road outside my house has a 30 mph speed limit that everyone goes 40-45 mph on. The cops aren’t pulling everyone over, so it’s legislation that’s arbitrarily applied. In the Children of God, we had general appearance regulations, but we also had a catch-all prohibition on "looking cool." Fast forward

 to the Army, where we have hundreds of pages of regulations about appearance, but there’s also a catch-all that allows the commander to say, "You look too faddish." It’s arbitrary and used to control. It’s not operational, but it’s about prescribing behavior and demanding sacrifice.

Appearance control is about prescribing attitude and behavior, which leads us to body size and body coverage. In coercive environments, they generally want you to be skinny, small. This puts you in a brain fog and is a visual representation of self-sacrifice. There's a hierarchy in America that thin is better, but you're never thin enough. You’re constantly striving, and that’s what a cult wants—constant striving. Sometimes it’s not about being skinny; sometimes it’s about being muscular or even large, as we saw in the Twin Flames cult. But it’s always about controlling body size. In the military, they want you to be a skinny, tall runner.

Body coverage is another form of control, usually requiring you to stay covered. There’s a lot of purity culture in coercive control. Cults often use purity requirements, not just in the way we think, but in not putting certain things in your body, soul, or mind. It’s all about self-sacrifice. The cult leader, of course, never has to self-sacrifice—they're always exempt. Sometimes the control is the opposite, like in the Children of God, where it was no bras, and girls and women shouldn’t sleep with underwear. Shyness was the sin of pride. It’s about controlling what parts of your body someone else is allowed to see. I love that Gen Z has decided, "Forget it, our bodies are our bodies."

**Scot Loyd:** That’s refreshing about the younger generations—they’ve embraced authenticity as a value. You mentioned body size, and I want to go back to that point. Your husband, reflecting on his time as a helicopter pilot, realized that it had less to do with his skill and more with the perception of his appearance.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Yes, my husband was a 20-year helicopter pilot who retired from Special Operations, the elite flying unit created after the Iran hostage crisis went wrong. His job required incredible skill, but he said his career advancement depended more on his being a tall, skinny runner than on his skill. The Army arbitrarily chose runtime as a measure of a good soldier. In the Army, especially for officers, there’s this idea of the "elbow gap"—you need to look skinny in uniform. It’s not operational; it’s about appearance control. It’s about prescribing behavior and sacrifice. This arbitrary standard impacts people’s careers, even if they’re highly skilled.

When I started looking at appearance control, I realized how much it affects people. Readers of *Uncultured* pointed out that I had disordered eating, and I realized I’d had an eating disorder for 20 years—first in the cult, then in the military. It’s not uncommon for soldiers to leave the military with serious eating disorders because of the pressure to stay small and skinny.

**Scot Loyd:** I also recall from *Uncultured* that you were very fast. You tell a story about outrunning a lot of the men. Do you think that contributed to your success in the Army? If you hadn’t been as fast or skinny, would you have enjoyed the same success?

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Absolutely not. I always joked that as a woman, I had to run faster, jump higher, and shoot better than all the men, so I ran really fast. I was a good intelligence officer, but a pretty garbage soldier. But nobody realized that for six and a half years because I was a really fast runner. It’s hard to explain, but growing up in high-control groups, you’re taught to be the best, and you’ll sacrifice anything—your mental, physical well-being—just to be at the top of the group.

**Scot Loyd:** That’s interesting because even if you believe the rhetoric of the armed forces—"be all you can be"—what you’re saying is that a lot of it is perception. You were seen as the cream of the crop because you could run fast and were a skinny white girl, but that doesn’t necessarily reflect skill. That should concern all of us if the rhetoric is that we’re the best in the world, but it’s happening based on perception and old stereotypes.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Exactly. Even when it opposes operational success, appearance control is about prescribing behavior and sacrifice. We’re demanding sacrifice, and it must be hard, often visibly hard. That’s why skinny is such a common standard in high-control environments—it’s a sign of self-sacrifice. And then there’s underwear control, which is a common theme in cults. In *Uncultured,* I talk about how the uncles in the cult would do panty checks on the girls at night, and it was as creepy as it sounds. I left it in the book because I realized they inspect our underwear in the military too. If they did it in the cult and the military, it’s about programming and influence or power and control. Underwear control is a taboo, it makes us feel shameful, and it takes away individuality. In the military, your underwear is only inspected in basic training, but the regulation is there, so anyone could technically ask to see your underwear. The final thing is that if you can convince your members that the mission is so important that even their underwear matters, you’ve got them.

**Scot Loyd:** That’s the most powerful point. If something as intimate and personal as undergarments can be regulated, it’s not a far stretch to ask someone to give up their life for the cause. You’ve already given up control of personal details, so the next step isn’t that large. And the fact that in 2024, people are still judging others for their clothing choices shows how deep these ideas of control go.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Exactly. High-control groups work by sometimes having written clothing requirements and sometimes not, but the message is always, "Don’t stand out." That’s true in corporate America, government work, and many other areas. After I sold my book and gained some financial freedom, my first thought was, "I’m going to wear whatever I want for the rest of my life." It’s a big part of deconstructing from cults. I wear wacky outfits because I want to, and I’ve realized that nothing happens when I do. It’s a way of messaging to yourself that you’re in control of your life. It’s also a way to signal to others that you’re not playing these games and aren’t trying to fit in. I really embrace the idea of "Why fit in when you were born to stand out?" after almost three decades of high-control environments.

Appearance control is always about prescribing attitudes, and that leads us to attitude control. There are two aspects of attitude control—emotional suppression and emotional evocation. You’re not allowed to have any attitude that isn’t happy and bubbly. Everything is good, but when you’re told to cry, you cry. This is seen in church cry nights or military funerals, where you’re expected to maintain military bearing until the taps play, then you can let it all out. Both constant emotional suppression and evocation are ways cult leaders control us. We often continue these behaviors even after leaving the cult. We’ve been taught that emotions are dangerous, but we don’t understand that we need emotional release, which can lead to breakdowns. There’s a reason so many of us like sad ballads or country songs—we have this praise kink because that was the music we were allowed to tap into our emotions.

**Scot Loyd:** That’s exactly what I experienced growing up in the United Pentecostal Church. There were two emotions that were rewarded: exuberant happiness and sorrowful lament. There was no nuance in between. When you got into the real world, your responses were either toxic positivity or inappropriate lamenting. We didn’t understand our emotions because they were manipulated in the group. Being tired, isolated, and dependent increases emotional vulnerability and impairs critical thinking, so when you’re in these groups, your emotions are manipulated. When you face real situations, you either don’t know how to respond or respond inappropriately.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** It’s so hard when we walk away from these groups. I noticed this when I became a parent—I didn’t know how to deal with any emotion that wasn’t happy or angry. All of this self-sacrifice, appearance control, emotional suppression, and more lead to isolation, breaking you off from family, friends, and even yourself. Sacrifice is seen as a good thing, but it leads to the cult glaze—the look of cult members who are smiling but have a hundred-meter stare or black eyes. It’s a constant state of disconnection from your own emotions, critical thinking, and needs. The promised reward is that the group will win, that all this sacrifice is for something. When we leave high-control groups, we have to learn to be more selfish but less narcissistic. In cults, our sacrifices feed our egos and make us feel superior, but we have no idea how to self-care.

**Scot Loyd:** In our culture, sacrifice is celebrated for the sake of sacrifice. The death of an American soldier is venerated and deified. I consider myself a patriot, but it can be dangerous to elevate sacrifice without questioning the cause. After 9/11, we saw toxic patriotism, and we stayed in Afghanistan for years because politicians were too scared to pull out and risk the sacrifice of those soldiers being seen as for nothing. But the reality is that if you constantly ask individuals to sacrifice for the group, they will break. That’s why

 I don’t think you can have a good cult because constant self-sacrifice ultimately impacts the individual.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Exactly. Every organization’s goal is to perpetuate itself, but if you’re constantly asking someone to self-sacrifice for the group, it’s not sustainable. In cults, one of the things you’re asked to sacrifice is your own health—physical and mental. Both in the Children of God and the US Army, I saw the demonization of medical care. When you need medical care, you’re saying, "I matter more right now than whatever I should be doing for the group." We see cracks in the brainwashing happen during medical emergencies when people realize the cult will let them suffer endlessly in its name. The amount of self-sacrifice you’ve done becomes its own exit cost, making it harder to leave. Cognitive dissonance comes from cults, where people couldn’t walk away even when the apocalypse didn’t happen because they had sacrificed too much. This is why I admire you for walking away and deconstructing after devoting so much of your life to your cult.

**Scot Loyd:** That’s a great point. It’s important to educate yourself and understand that you can walk away from these groups. If you keep sacrificing, whether it’s your health, finances, time, or talent, it will eventually rob you of your life. That’s the tragedy we see too often.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** These extreme groups want your whole life dedicated to them. As we said when we started, living under someone else’s prescribed identity is dangerous for you. But you can walk away, you can make the decision to stop self-sacrificing. In a healthy organization, you should be able to say, "These are my boundaries, and I’m not sacrificing this." However, in most total institutions, cults, and high-control groups, when you decide you’re no longer willing to self-sacrifice, it’s time to go. The group will usually push you out because they don’t want others to realize you can just choose to stop.

**Scot Loyd:** Absolutely. Hopefully, Daniella has piqued your interest, and you’ll pick up her book *Uncultured,* available wherever you buy quality books. It’s a great read. Follow Daniella on social media—she’s all over TikTok, Instagram, and has exclusive content on her Patreon page. Daniella, thank you, as always, for a great conversation.

**Daniella Mestyanek Young:** Thank you so much, Scott. Please follow Scott too—he’s a very interesting person on TikTok. Speaking of self-sacrifice, Scott works a real job all day and then comes here in the evening to help record this podcast and make it awesome. Hopefully, we’ll make sure Scott gets enough out of being involved that it’s not constant self-sacrifice. Thank you all so much for listening. *Uncultured* is also on audiobook and available at libraries. On Patreon, I’m reading it out loud one chapter at a time, even if you’re not a paid subscriber. Lots of ways to connect with us and access our content. We’ll be back next week to talk about isolation and how cults separate you from the rest of the world.

**Scot Loyd:** I’m looking forward to it, and I hope that all of you will subscribe, leave a rating, and share our podcast with others. Until next time, I’m Scott Loyd for Daniella Mestyanek Young. We’ll see you on the next episode of *Cults and the Culting of America.*

The conversation explores the concept of exit costs in cults, focusing on the United Pentecostal Church International and the Children of God. It discusses the high entrance costs, such as strict dress codes and behavioral expectations, and the financial costs of giving to the church. The conversation also delves into the psychological and emotional damage caused by cults, including the disengagement from skepticism and the fear of eternal damnation. The exit costs of leaving a cult are examined, including the loss of faith and the difficulty of rebuilding a new framework. The conversation concludes with a discussion on the lasting impacts of cults, such as social anxiety and the fear of judgment. In this conversation, Daniella and Scot discuss the mischaracterization of criticism and the all-or-nothing mentality within cults. They explore the concept of cognitive dissonance and how it plays into entrance and exit costs. They also examine the historical patterns of cults and the dangers of not deconstructing harmful ideologies. The conversation emphasizes the importance of deconstruction and the potential for finding joy and happiness on the other side.

In this episode of Cults and the Culting of America, hosts Scot Loyd and Daniella engage with Tia Levings, a New York Times bestselling author and cult survivor. They discuss Tia's journey of writing her memoir, the impact of Christian patriarchy, and the allure of traditionalism in modern society. Tia shares her insights on the dynamics of complementarianism, the consequences of perfectionism, and the importance of storytelling in healing. The conversation emphasizes the need for awareness and empowerment among those affected by high-control groups, while also exploring the complexities of societal change and the role of women in shaping the future.

Tia's Links

https://tialevings.com/

https://tialevings.substack.com/

Instagram @tialevingswriter

Threads @tialevingswriter

TikTok @tialevingswriter

Daniella's Links:

You can read all about my story in my book, Uncultured-- buy signed copies here. https://bit.ly/SignedUncultured

For more info on me:

Patreon: https://bit.ly/YTPLanding

Cult book Clubs (Advanced AND Memoirs) Annual Membership: https://bit.ly/YTPLanding

Get an autographed copy of my book, Uncultured: https://bit.ly/SignedUncultured

Get my book, Uncultured, from Bookshop.org: https://bit.ly/4g1Ufw8

Daniella’s Tiktok: https://bit.ly/3V6GK6k / KnittingCultLady

Instagram:  https://bit.ly/4ePAOFK / daniellamyoung_ 

Unamerican video book (on Patreon): https://bit.ly/YTVideoBook

Secret Practice video book (on Patreon): https://bit.ly/3ZswGY8

Other Podcasts

Daniella's other podcast: Hey White Women

Takeaways

• Tia's book started as therapeutic journals recommended by her therapist.
• The journey to writing a memoir can take years and evolve over time.
• Christian patriarchy influences many aspects of American culture.
• The concept of a 'cult without walls' highlights the pervasive nature of these deologies.
• Traditionalism can appear attractive but often masks deeper issues.
• Perfectionism is a significant burden for survivors of cults.
• The most vulnerable individuals often bear the brunt of abuse in high-control groups.
• Hope and empowerment are crucial in the face of societal chaos.
• People should always come before ideas in any belief system.
• Bitterness can serve as a powerful tool for healing and empowerment. 

Sound Bites

"Welcome to 2025: A New Beginning"
"It took years to tell my story"
"Hope is stubborn and necessary"

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Context of 2025
03:39 The Journey to Writing a Memoir
06:25 The Impact of Christian Patriarchy
09:30 The Connection Between Personal Experience and Cultural Issues
12:25 The Allure of Traditional Gender Roles
15:27 Nostalgia and Misconceptions of the Past
18:15 Facing the Truth of Domestic Discipline
21:30 The Importance of Sharing Stories
24:14 The Dynamics of Complementarianism
27:14 Recognizing Abuse and Empowering Individuals
31:20 Breaking Free from Perfectionism
33:39 Childhood Vulnerability in Cults
35:53 The Future of Cults and Youth Movements
37:18 Chaos and Fundamentalism
38:02 Narcissism and Cult Leadership
39:29 Women’s Empowerment and Resistance
40:27 Surviving Authoritarianism
41:53 The Power of Storytelling
43:16 Bitterness as Empowerment
52:59 People Over Ideas: A Fundamental Principle

Produced by Haley Phillips

 

In this conversation, Maddie Jo Cowsert shares her journey from growing up in evangelical purity culture to navigating her identity and sexuality in New York City. She discusses the complexities of deconstruction, the impact of family support, and her reflections on wealth and the behavior of rich people. The dialogue highlights the shared experiences of those who have left high-control groups and the ongoing search for belonging and purpose.

Daniella's Links:

You can read all about my story in my book, Uncultured-- buy signed copies here. https://bit.ly/SignedUncultured

For more info on me:

Patreon: https://bit.ly/YTPLanding

Cult book Clubs (Advanced AND Memoirs) Annual Membership: https://bit.ly/YTPLanding

Get an autographed copy of my book, Uncultured: https://bit.ly/SignedUncultured

Get my book, Uncultured, from Bookshop.org: https://bit.ly/4g1Ufw8

Daniella’s Tiktok: https://bit.ly/3V6GK6k / KnittingCultLady

Instagram:  https://bit.ly/4ePAOFK / daniellamyoung_ 

Unamerican video book (on Patreon): https://bit.ly/YTVideoBook

Secret Practice video book (on Patreon): https://bit.ly/3ZswGY8

Scot's Links

Connect with Scot Loyd's social media  (TikTok)

Other Podcasts

Daniella's other podcast: Hey White Women

Takeaways

• Purity culture instills a sense of identity centered around marriage.
• Moving to New York City can be a significant culture shock.
• Dating in a secular environment presents unique challenges for those raised in religious settings.
• Family support plays a crucial role in the deconstruction process.
• Wealth can create a disconnect in understanding real-life struggles.
• Rich people often face their own insecurities despite their wealth.
• Generosity among the wealthy can be genuine, but the system is flawed.
• The pressure to conform to societal expectations is pervasive in both religious and secular contexts.
• Deconstruction is often a slow and painful process of self-discovery.
• Finding a new identity after leaving a cult-like environment is a complex journey. 

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Purity Culture and Personal Background
03:29 The Spectrum of Religious Experiences
06:19 Cultural Shock: From Evangelicalism to New York City
09:12 Navigating Relationships and Sexuality
12:25 The Impact of New York's Dating Scene
15:21 Deconstructing Faith and Identity
18:30 The Role of Money and Prosperity in Religion
21:22 Social Dynamics and Group Behavior in Cults
24:22 The Internal Conflict of Leaving a Cult
27:14 The Journey of Rebuilding Identity
30:30 Conclusion: Humor and Healing in Deconstruction
31:07 Navigating Early Relationships and Cultural Expectations
32:49 The Impact of Purity Culture on Sexual Experiences
36:04 The Insidious Nature of Cultural Norms
37:28 Parallels in Trauma and Healing
39:34 Family Dynamics and Support in Deconstruction
42:23 Grieving the Loss of a Conditional Relationship with God
46:13 The Role of Education and Critical Thinking in Parenting
48:52 The Importance of Unconditional Love in Cult Recovery
51:35 Reevaluating Definitions of Love and Acceptance
53:32 Insights from Working with the Wealthy
59:27 The Cult of Capitalism and Its Implications