Behavioral Grooves Podcast (Kurt Nelson, PhD and Tim Houlihan)

[NOTE: This is a republished episode from #99 in November 2019.]

Katy Milkman is no ordinary behavioral scientist. She’s a Professor of Operations, Information and Decisions at Wharton. She has a secondary faculty appointment in the University of Pennsylvania’s Medical School in the Department of Medical Ethics and Health Policy. She’s Co-Director, with Angela Duckworth, at the non-profit Behavior Change for Good Initiative. She’s the host of one of our favorite podcasts, called Choiceology, she is in the middle of writing a book, and she’s a Mom and Partner all at the same time!

We are grateful to her for taking time to record a conversation with us about her work on temptation bundling, the sorts of projects she’s getting at the Behavior Change for Good organization, and a few tidbits about what her book, coming out in 2021, will have in store for the readers.

Most importantly, Katy shared three important pieces of wisdom about behavior change during our conversation: 1. Behavior change is hard – cut yourself some slack. 2. We humans are not built to do the right thing all the time.  3. Just keep trying.

© 2020 Behavioral Grooves

Katy Milkman, PhD: http://www.katherinemilkman.com/

Katy Milkman – Twitter: @katy_milkman

Behavior Change for Good: https://bcfg.wharton.upenn.edu/

Choiceology podcast: https://www.schwab.com/resource-center/insights/podcast

Temptation Bundling: https://mayooshin.com/temptation-bundling/

Fresh Start Effect: https://faculty.wharton.upenn.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Dai_Fresh_Start_2014_Mgmt_Sci.pdf

Charles Duhigg: https://charlesduhigg.com/

BJ Fogg Maui Habit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L1R7OtJhWs

Robert Cialdini, PhD: https://www.robertcialdinibf.com/

Francesca Gino, PhD: https://francescagino.com/

Angela Duckworth, PhD: https://angeladuckworth.com/

Kurt Nelson: kurt@lanterngroup.com

Tim Houlihan: tim@behavioralchemy.com

A special message from Kurt and Tim, all the way from Philadelphia:

November 5th is fast approaching, and now, more than ever, participating in democracy matters. Casting your vote isn’t just a civic duty—it’s a way to find your groove in American democracy. Tune in to this short episode for practical advice and inspiration to make your vote count, and join in celebrating the great American experiment!

How accurate are rom-coms when it comes to love? Relationship scientists Paul Eastwick & Eli Finkel, co-hosts of Love Factually, put movie romance under a scientific lens, separating fact from fiction and revealing how Hollywood shapes our real-life expectations about love.

[0:00] Intro & Welcome to Paul Eastwick & Eli Finkel

[2:00] Coffee, Unicycles, and Speed Round Fun

[6:40] Introducing Love Factually: A Relationship Science Podcast

[10:05] Do Movies Teach Us About Love or Just Reflect Culture?

[15:35] The Rom-Com Myths That Hollywood Keeps Selling

[22:50] What Movies Get Surprisingly Right About Relationships

[30:10] The Power of Micro-Cultures in Romantic Relationships

[35:40] Relationship Science & The Challenges of Studying Love

[41:00] Personal Insights & Favorite Movies from Paul & Eli

[47:45] Music Preferences: The Soundtrack to Love & Life

[49:57] Closing Thoughts & Where to Find Love Factually

©2025 Behavioral Grooves

Listen to Love Factually

Follow Paul Eastwick

Follow Eli Finkel 

The All-or-Nothing Marriage by Eli Finkel

Peter Gabriel - In Your Eyes 

Pearl Jam - Daughter 

Nirvana - Smells Like Teen Spirit 

Many of us struggle with the demands of parenting. Our response to feeling overwhelmed can be to try and control our kids’ behavior. But guest Sue Donnellan challenges us to lessen our parenting load by giving our children more control, more responsibility and ultimately more respect. While this might go against our instincts, when we take ownership of our own behavior, rather than controlling our kids', we will become happier parents with children able to learn from their mistakes.

Sue Donnellan is the recent author of “Secrets to Parenting Without Giving a F^ck: The Non-Conformist Playbook to Raising Happy Kids Without Public Meltdowns, Power Struggles, & Punishments”. With the surprise arrival of her triplets, Sue had suddenly found herself parenting 4 young kids while also running her own business. She walks us through the moment that radically changed her parenting style, and how she transformed herself into a "reformed yeller". Over the years, Sue's journey of discovery has turned her into a parenting specialist who is known for restoring harmony to homes.

Please note that because of the title of our guest’s book on this episode, there is a lot of colorful language used throughout the podcast. While it’s an episode about parenting, you may want to tune in to this one, away from little ears!

At Behavioral Grooves we really value all of our listeners. If you want to demonstrate your support for our show, you can donate to our work through Patreon. We also love reading reviews of the podcast, and frequently read these out on the show.

(3:44) Welcome and speed round questions.

(8:49) What is parenting without giving a f^ck?

(11:53) Sues’ parenting journey and why she wrote the book.

(16:36) Why do parents struggle to let go of control?

(19:00) What is The Magic Mantra?

(22:32) Choice architecture in parenting.

(26:04) Dealing with parental guilt.

(29:44) What is 360 decision making?

(35:54) The 4 Fs of parenting.

(39:53) What music would Sue take to a desert island?

(45:09) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim about parenting.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

Sue Donnellan’s book: “Secrets to Parenting Without Giving a F^ck: The Non-Conformist Playbook to Raising Happy Kids Without Public Meltdowns, Power Struggles, & Punishments”: https://amzn.to/3wR0Llw 

Follow Sue Donnellan on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn and Twitter with the handle @AskMomParenting

The Zeigarnik Effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeigarnik_effect

Sesil Pir, Episode 281, Why Leaders Need To Care For People, Not Manage Them: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/care-for-people-not-manage-them/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon:  https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Sade “Smooth Operator”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TYv2PhG89A 

Sade “Cherish The Day”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKhfoKOTwZY 

Stephen Martin and Joe Marks, PhD dive deep into one of the most important eye-openers about communication in our world today: the importance of WHO delivers the message. Their book, “Messengers: Who We Listen To, Who We Don’t, and Why,” is a major revamp on the claim made by Marshall McLuhan in 1964 that, “The Medium IS the Message.” While Steve and Joe are hard-pressed to say McLuhan’s refrain is dead, it’s being outsized by a more contemporary and relevant one: “The Messenger IS the Message.”

In our conversation with Steve and Joe, we discussed the way they’ve broken down their research and organized their book. The first section is on what they refer to as Hard Messenger Traits: Socio-Economic Position, Competence, Dominance, and Attractiveness. The second section works its way through the Soft Messenger Traits: Warmth, Vulnerability, Trustworthiness, and Charisma. 

Their comments deconstruct how motivated reasoning is more than just aligning our tolerance for untruth with our desires; more importantly, it’s an alignment with the person who is expressing our desires.

To illustrate this point, they asked UK voters if they thought that Boris Johnson lied about Brexit. Seventy-five percent agreed that he did. Then the researchers asked if the voters still considered Johnson trustworthy. For “Leavers,” the lies no impact on his trustworthiness. He wasn’t tainted because his lies served the voters’ underlying goals.

While there are decades of psychological research on the impact the messenger has on the message, no one has synthesized it into a single narrative as Joe and Steve have. It’s an excellent read and we found our discussion with them filled with anecdotal gems and slightly uncomfortable laughter.

It’s also worth noting that Steve is a co-author with Robert Cialdini, PhD on several great papers their groundbreaking book on persuasion. We hope you enjoy our conversation with Joe and Steve.

 © 2020 Behavioral Grooves 

Stephen Martin, PhD: @scienceofyes

Joe Marks, PhD: @joemarks13

“Messengers: Who We Listen To, Who We Don’t, and Why”: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/43522604

Robert Cialdini, PhD: https://www.robertcialdinibf.com/

“YES: 50 Scientifically Proven Ways to Be Persuasive”: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2208661.Yes_?from_search=true&qid=Tk8IuivDSr&rank=1

John Henry Marks, MD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Marks_(doctor)

“I’m not a doctor, but I play one on TV”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ts0XG6qDIco

Bettye Swann: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8iSfknnMfc

Otis Redding: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTVjnBo96Ug

Prince: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXJhDltzYVQ

ELO “Electric Light Orchestra”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQUlA8Hcv4s

The Beatles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q_ZzBGPdqE

New Order: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYH8DsU2WCk

The Baseballs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM2177pHMT0

Joy Division: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dBt3mJtgJc

Ed Sheeran: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymjNGjuBCTo

Adel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08DjMT-qR9g

Aretha Franklin “Think”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqYnevHibaI

Aretha Franklin “Respect”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FOUqQt3Kg0

Right Said Fred “I’m Too Sexy”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5mtclwloEQ

AC/DC “Back in Black”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoMLhnvV-yM

When we pretend to know something that we don’t or start a comment with “everyone knows that...”, we create an atmosphere where answers become irrelevant. It closes off our openness to new ideas, ways of thinking and discovering new information. This is the curse of knowingness.

On this episode of Behavioral Grooves, Jonathan Malesic discusses the concept of "knowingness" - the tendency people have to act like they already know something when in fact they don't. This false sense of knowledge can prevent learning and understanding. Overcoming knowingness requires maintaining a healthy skepticism and openness to new evidence. 

Knowingness afflicts all corners of our politics. And I think that it's a real problem when it starts afflicting people whose job is to inform us.

Jonathan Malesic teaches writing at Southern Methodist University and creative nonfiction at the University of Texas at Dallas. He’s a philosopher and scholar and cares a lot about something we do every week: science communication. And he's also a previous guest on the show when he discussed how to end burnout on episode 302.

Writing for an audience can help develop empathy and moral imagination by forcing writers to imagine the needs and perspective of their readers. Jonathan argues that learning to write is an ethical training that teaches us to relate to others beyond ourselves. With the emergence of new AI tools like ChatGPT it begs the question of whether writing needs to be taught at all. But Jonathan doesn’t feel threatened by AI. He explains that with a lack of empathy, AI will never be able to effectively write for its audience. 

(3:12) Welcome and speed round questions.

(7:02) Our problem isn’t misinformation, it’s knowingness.

(9:16) Is knowingness a type of confirmation bias?

(11:31) How already knowing makes it impossible to learn anything new.

(15:04) The role of the internet and social media on confirmation bias.

(18:43) Cognitive dissonance and the structure of scientific revolutions.

(20:54) How can we overcome knowingness?

(28:55) How do you change someone’s mind?

(30:54) Do we still need to teach writing now that we have ChatGPT?

(39:09) How do we relate to people we imagine?

(43:24) What music would Jon take to a desert island?

(47:18) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim on knowingness.

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

Episode 302, You Have Dignity Because You’re Human, Not Because You Work | Jonathan Malesic: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/you-have-dignity-jonathan-malesic/ 

Jonathan Malesic’s book “The End of Burnout: Why Work Drains Us and How to Build Better Lives”: https://amzn.to/3tDdS8j

Jonathan Lear “Open Minded: Working Out the Logic of the Soul”: https://amzn.to/3PyP2SJ 

“Our big problem is not misinformation; it’s knowingness” by Jonathan Malesic: https://psyche.co/ideas/our-big-problem-is-not-misinformation-its-knowingness

Buffalo Sabres: https://www.nhl.com/sabres 

Thomas Kuhn “The Structure of Scientific Revolutions”: https://amzn.to/3JqLe1O 

Oedipus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus 

Episode 31, Leaving the Matrix: Annie Duke and Insights into how you can improve your thinking! https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/leaving-the-matrix-annie-duke-and-insights-into-how-you-can-improve-your-thinking/ 

 Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves 

 Neil Young “Harvest Moon”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2MtEsrcTTs 

Fiona Apple “Criminal”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFOzayDpWoI

Iris Tzafrir is an inspirational and influential cross-functional leader in strategy and business development, deal making, value actualization, and merger integration. She grew up in a Kibbutz in the Negev Desert of Israel, the daughter of 2 Holocaust survivors, and emigrated to the US for graduate school where she studied virology. She loves to learn and is committed to making the world a better place.

We asked her to join us to discuss her insights on anti-racism, recognition of the other, and the importance of working together in teams (a key element of this is inclusion). Iris is, in our opinion, an accidental behavioral scientist. She’s not trained in the terminology or interventions of behavioral science, yet it’s evident that she possesses great skills in framing and messaging. We found her journey from telling her parent’s Holocaust story to telling her own story an important example of applied behavioral science.

This episode is not so much about her life as the daughter of 2 Holocaust survivors as it is about her insights into the human condition. We hope you find her practices and insights helpful.

Lastly, our discussion with Iris ends around 36:20 where left us with a unique proposition. We urge you to listen to her read a short poem composed by her father. It’s called, “A Kind Word.”

© 2020 Behavioral Grooves

"A Kind Word": https://www.linkedin.com/posts/iris-tzafrir_kindnessmatters-kindness-kindnessiscontagious-activity-6651629471386394624-NqLD

Iris Tzafrir: https://www.linkedin.com/in/iris-tzafrir/

The Holocaust: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

Robert Cialdini, PhD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Cialdini

Cristina Bicchieri, PhD “The Grammar of Society”: https://www.amazon.com/Grammar-Society-Nature-Dynamics-Social/dp/0521574900

Albert Bandura, PhD: “The Bobo Doll Effect”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmBqwWlJg8U

Idan Raichel: https://idanraichelproject.com/en/ Achinoam Nini: http://www.noasmusic.com/ Hadag Nachash: http://hadagnahash.com/en/main/ Chava Albershtein: https://www.aviv2.com/chava/

Rhianna: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfN4PVaOU5Q

Billie Eilish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgBJmlPo8Xw

Miles Davis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tcg2Do13RJc

“We Are The World”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I04FcfIVtcU

“What the World Needs Now”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv7jI5ACHCw

Dr. Adam Dorsay joins us to explore what it truly means to connect in a digital age. From the four key types of connection—self, others, the world, and something greater—to rekindling friendships and embracing technology for deeper bonds, this episode is packed with insights on building a more fulfilling life. Plus, we (of course) discuss the power of music, social comparison, and why sometimes, all it takes to make someone's day is a simple phone call.

©2025 Behavioral Grooves

[0:00] Introduction to Dr. Adam Dorsay [5:41] Speed Round: Instruments, Languages, and Coffee [22:36] The Four Types of Connection [37:12] The Psychology of Savoring and Gratitude [45:24] Why Are Modern Friendships So Hard? [1:00:25] - The Driveway Test for Relationships [1:03:45] - The Power of Music and Live Experiences [1:12:00] - Key Takeaways on Connection and Joy [1:30:02] - Closing Thoughts 

©2025 Behavioral Grooves

Learn more about Dr. Adam Dorsay

Super Psyched by Adam Dorsay

Super Psyched Podcast

Join the Behavioral Grooves community

Subscribe to Behavioral Grooves on YouTube

George Michael - Faith

Sigur Rós - Sæglópur 

Mumford & Sons - Lover of the Light

Do women in the workplace have to choose between being likable and assertive?

This week, Alison Fragale, author of The Likable Badass joins Kurt and Tim to look at the challenges women face in the workplace and how they can overcome. With her powerful concept of the “likable badass”, Alison teaches listeners the art of blending warmth with assertiveness to achieve success without sacrificing authenticity. 

Alison unpacks and explores the historical disadvantages women have faced due to gender and stereotypical characteristics that often hinder success. She highlights how women can overcome these traditional obstacles by balancing confidence and kindness, offering practical strategies like positive self-talk, and building an “army of promoters” to elevate their status. Throughout their discussion, Alison emphasizes how small, incremental improvements and effective communication can help women build a strong reputation.

In their grooving session, Kurt and Tim dive deeper into the concept of the likable badass, providing listeners with tangible insights on how small, consistent efforts can significantly impact workplace success and beyond. By focusing on building status rather than seeking power, listeners of all genders can gain valuable insights into self-promotion and confidence in the workplace.

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

[0:00] Empowering women in the workplace

[4:20] Introduction and speed round

[8:21] What is a “likable badass”?

[12:20] Challenges faced by women in the workplace

[16:12] How communication helps build status

[27:14] Why we need to self-promote

[30:12] Dangers of self-deprecation

[39:32] Practical tips for becoming a likable badass

[46:12] Desert Island music

[51:20] Grooving Session: the importance of small, incremental improvements and promoting your own success

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

Likable Badass - How Women Get the Success They Deserve

Join the Behavioral Grooves Newsletter!

Alison Fragale

Linda Babcock - The No Club

Zach Brown - I Remember

Bon Jovi - It’s My Life

With curiosity we can figure out what we actually want. Sometimes what we desire makes us feel uncomfortable, and as a therapist, our guest Charlotte Fox Weber makes space for that discomfort. Join us as she highlights her observations from the therapist's chair.

“I think curiosity is a life force. It engages us, it galvanizes us, it's inspiring, and it gets us to pay attention.” ~ Charlotte Fox Weber

Many people see a therapist to help them work through psychological issues. But have you ever considered what the dynamic is like from the point of view of the therapist? If you were a fly on the wall, what would you observe behind the closed doors? 

Charlotte Fox Weber brings a unique perspective to the therapist-client relationship. Her new book “Tell Me What You Want: A Therapist and Her Clients Explore Our 12 Deepest Desires”: https://amzn.to/3ZJ9XUl, expertly pulls out recurring themes from her years as a therapist which are beautifully illustrated with captivating stories.

According to Charlotte, we each have 12 fundamental psychological needs that we all share but often hide. These universal desires are: to love and be loved; understanding, power, attention, freedom; to create, to belong, to win, to connect, to control; and to want what we shouldn’t. With her experience as a therapist, Charlotte is aiming to help us navigate our desires through curiosity and authenticity. If we can more accurately acknowledge what we actually want, we can live a more fulfilled life.

“The 12 desires I describe, all have to do with recognition.” ~ Charlotte Fox Weber

Our interview with Charlotte was recorded a few weeks ago when Tim Houlihan was unwell, so our producer Mary Kaliff joins Kurt on this episode as co-host of the show. But you’ll be pleased to know that Tim is doing much better now and you’ll be hearing his familiar voice on all upcoming episodes again!

(1:56) Welcome and speed round questions.

(4:09) Why is it so hard for us to say what we want?

(8:14) Why curiosity is so important in therapy.

(11:37) The 12 desires that we each experience.

(13:27) Do we have desires that stay consistent throughout our life?

(18:22) How do we reconcile all of our identities?

(20:14) Why do we struggle holding two truths simultaneously?

(25:42) How jazz music helps us appreciate the notes unplayed.

(29:50) Of the 12 desires, which one makes us most uncomfortable?

(33:53) The cost of giving or paying attention.

(36:39) Grooving session with Kurt and Mary.

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

Charlotte Fox Weber: https://charlottefoxweber.com/ 

Charlotte’s book: “Tell Me What You Want: A Therapist and Her Clients Explore Our 12 Deepest Desires”: https://amzn.to/3ZJ9XUl 

Shankar Vedantam TED Talk “You don't actually know what your future self wants”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtfaccGmCCs 

Episode 325, Can You Unlearn History And Still Love Your Country? With Dolly Chugh: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/dolly-chugh/ 

Episode 178, Kwame Christian: On Compassionate Curiosity, Social Justice Conversations, and Cinnamon Toast Crunch: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/kwame-christian-on-compassionate-curiosity-social-justice-conversations-and-cinnamon-toast-crunch/ 

Episode 344, How To Frame Incentives To Drive The Desired Behavior with James Castello: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/incentives-to-drive-behavior/ 

Episode 237, Attention: How to Capture It and Keep It with Ben Parr: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/attention-with-ben-parr/ 

Episode 303, From Distracted To Focused: Nir Eyal’s Secrets On How To Be Indistractable: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/nir-eyal-how-to-be-indistractable/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Nina Simone “Feeling Good”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHRNrgDIJfo

Gary Latham, PhD is the Secretary of State Professor of Organizational Behaviour at the Rotman School of Management in the University of Toronto. His research in the field of organizational psychology has yielded over 200 peer-reviewed publications and he has written several books on the topic of goal setting. He and his lifelong research partner, Ed Locke PhD, are responsible for Goal Setting Theory, prized by both the scientific community and sales leaders around the world.

He is the only recipient of both the Distinguished Contributions to Science award and the Practice award from SIOP. Top it off, he is only the second researcher we’ve talked to on Behavioral Grooves that was cited in Kurt’s dissertation.

In our discussion with Professor Latham, we reviewed Goal Setting Theory, specific goals, participatory goals and talked about the relative importance of inductive and deductive reasoning. More importantly, we covered some of our favorite research on priming and were able to have a discussion about Kurt’s socks: are they prompts or primes? (You’ll have to listen to find out.)

If you like what you hear, please feel free to give us a quick review or sign up for cool rewards on our Patreon site (link below). Thanks for your support.

NOTE: We encountered some technical challenges while recording our conversation with Professor Latham and it’s audio quality is slightly below our standards. We considered a re-do, but we decided to stick with our original conversation, which is what we present in this episode. We hope you enjoy it.

© 2020 Behavioral Grooves

Gary Latham, PhD: https://www.rotman.utoronto.ca/FacultyAndResearch/Faculty/FacultyBios/Latham

Ed Locke, PhD: https://edwinlocke.com/

“Effects of goal setting and supervision on worker behavior in an industrial situation” (pulpwood industry study): https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1974-28825-001

“The effect of priming goals on organizational‑related behavior: My transition from skeptic to believer”: https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2017-56606-020

Amanda Shantz, PhD: https://www.tcd.ie/business/people/amanda-shantz.php

John Bargh, PhD: https://psychology.yale.edu/people/john-bargh

Scott Jeffrey, PhD: https://www.monmouth.edu/directory/profiles/scott-a-jeffrey/

Ron Piccolo, PhD: https://business.ucf.edu/person/ron-piccolo/

Farrah Fawcett Poster: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farrah_Fawcett

Jana Gallus, PhD and Bruno Frey, PhD: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0001839218777229

Victoria Shaffer, PhD: https://psychology.missouri.edu/people/shaffer

“The Influence of In-Store Music on Wine Selections”: https://mindhacks.com/2006/02/06/music-wine-and-will/

Kurt Nelson, PhD: @whatmotivates

Tim Houlihan: @THoulihan

Patreon Site for Behavioral Grooves: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

In this special edition, bestselling author and Forbes contributor, Rodd Wagner, organized a question-and-answer session with Kurt and Tim in front of a live audience to discuss whether behavioral sciences could be applied to corporate environments in ways that allow leaders to manipulate their employees. And, if so, where does that land on the ethical spectrum?

Rodd has grown increasingly intrigued and sometimes concerned that behavioral science has reached a point of refinement and adoption that it could create an unprecedented and unfair imbalance in the social contract between companies and the people who work at them. For example, IBM claims it can predict with 95 percent accuracy whether someone is about to resign and some companies are experimenting with selection systems in which candidates interact first with robots. Rodd, Kurt, and Tim are joined by John Harris, currently the Lead UX Design Researcher in the Healthcare Business Group at 3M and was recently a Projects Director at ideas42, a premiere pro-social non-profit organization. John started his career at the United Nations Economic Commission for Africa and continues to maintain a very pro-social mindset.

Some of the issues covered in our conversation included:  What if corporate leaders can keep their employee satisfaction scores the same by giving employees water bottles rather than raises? What if the “client” was the rank and file of the firm, rather than the leaders?  If nudges are aggregated, do they necessarily become manipulative? Is there a single ethical code that should be applied to every situation?

We hope you join us for this non-traditional approach to our podcast.

Kurt Nelson, PhD: @WhatMotivates

Tim Houlihan: @THoulihan

Sponsored by:

Lantern Group: http://lanterngroup.com/

BehaviorAlchemy: https://www.behavioralchemy.com/

© 2020 Behavioral Grooves

Rodd Wagner: https://www.linkedin.com/in/roddwagner/

John Harris: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnharrisiv/

Kurt Nelson, PhD: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kurtwnelson/

Tim Houlihan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tim-houlihan-b-e/

Azul Seven: https://azulseven.com/

Rodd Wagner Episode: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/rodd-wagner-this-episode-could-save-your-life/

Steve Sisler Episode: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/steven-sisler-seeing-people-as-we-are/

Katie Milkman, PhD Episode: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/katy-milkman-behavior-change-for-good/

Cristina Bicchieri, PhD Episode: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/cristina-bicchieri-social-norms-are-bundles-of-expectations/

Victoria Shaffer, PhD Episode: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/victoria-schaffer-end-of-life-decision-tools/

Patricia Norberg, PhD: https://directory.qu.edu/Profile/27981

Magical Thinking, Eric Oliver, PhD: https://voices.uchicago.edu/religionsinamerica/2018/01/26/21-workshop-measuring-an-intuitionist-worldview-by-professor-eric-oliver/

Behavioural Insights Team: https://www.bi.team/

Doug Burgum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Burgum

Great Plains Software (now Microsoft Dynamics): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Dynamics_GP

Casuistry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casuistry

Conversations are vital to our existence - after all, we talk with people every day. But have you ever dissected what makes a conversation effective? When we are more conscious of how we are talking with others, we can nurture more productive connections, and avoid common pitfalls that often derail our conversations.

In this episode, we explore the importance of conscious conversations, with author Chuck Wisner, whose new book The Art Of Conscious Conversations: Transforming How We Talk, Listen, and Interact is coming out in mid October 2022. Chuck’s insights are built on a fascinating mix of careers: from architect to personal coach, with a stop-off as a mediator at the Harvard Law Mediation Program. 

With Chuck, we discuss the four sequential stages to an effective conversation: 

• Storytelling
• Collaboration
• Creativity
• Commitment

We explore the role our identity plays in shaping the stories we tell ourselves, why leaders’ authority can make their voice louder, and how some of our best ideas happen when we are stimulating our creative minds.

“The stories we live by and tell ourselves and others are essential to our identity.” ~ Chuck Wisner

If you enjoy listening to Behavioral Grooves Podcast, please consider donating to our work through our Patreon page. We use all the donations to fund the production of the podcast. Thanks!

(2:31) Welcome and speed round questions.

(4:35) The stories we tell ourselves are central to our identity.

(5:34) The Art of Conscious Conversation Book.

(10:14) The first of the four types of conversations: storytelling.

(18:56) Collaboration, the second step of successful conversations.

(22:38) How re-engaging with our creative minds assists our conversations.

(28:56) Why commitment is the active part of a conversation.

(38:06) How music is part of Chuck’s life.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

The Art of Conscious Conversations: Transforming How We Talk, Listen, and Interact: https://amzn.to/3clNtGk  

Episode 178: Kwame Christian On Compassionate Curiosity, Social Justice Conversations, and Cinnamon Toast Crunch: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/kwame-christian-on-compassionate-curiosity-social-justice-conversations-and-cinnamon-toast-crunch/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves 

Joe Morello “Take 5 Drum Solo”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tTyTc6FjjU  

Delbert McClinton “Ain’t That Lovin’ You”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCN2og2kKdk  

Understanding how we think can change our thinking. From confirmation biases, to uncertainty, to overconfidence, we are all blessed with the same thinking patterns that affect our decision making. Yale professor, Dr Woo-kyoung Ahn walks us through the latest cognitive research on “thinking problems”, and most importantly, how we can overcome them.

Woo-kyoung Ahn is a psychology professor and the director of the Thinking Lab at Yale University. Recently she wrote a riveting book titled “Thinking 101: How to Reason Better to Live Better.” On this episode of Behavioral Grooves, she joins Tim Houlihan and producer Mary Kaliff to make the case that there are some good reasons behind our ways of thinking. For example, confirmation bias can save us energy and help bring consistency to our lives. 

Dr Ahn illustrates her book and this discussion with many relatable, personal stories that illustrate our patterns of thinking. Our favorite is that she recently updated her lecture notes for her class at Yale on the planning fallacy. She had optimistically estimated it would take her 3 days. Ironically, it took her 3 weeks!

As always, the most useful part of the conversation on Behavioral Grooves are the practical tips that we can use in our everyday life. And Woo-kyoung offers us plenty of useful ways we change our perspective and improve our lives. Join Tim and Mary for further discussion in the Grooving Session on how to apply Woo-kyoung’s work.

(3:16) Welcome and speed round questions.

(6:26) Who is Thinking 101 written for?

(9:58) What are “thinking problems” and what exactly is confirmation bias?

(12:29) What is the link between maximizing, satisficing and confirmation bias?

(18:09) Should we change people's minds or change our perspective?

(20:33) Why are we overconfident about what others are thinking?

(23:22) Why is confirmation bias hardwired in us?

(26:25) Why are highly educated women biased against other highly educated women?

(28:38) What can we do about confirmation bias in job selection?

(31:43) How do collective societies vs individualistic societies affect our identity?

(34:18) The difference between emotional theory of mind and cognitive theory of mind.

(35:42) How to combat the planning fallacy.

(41:40) How uncertainty affects our decision making.

(46:11) What music would Woo-kyoung take to a desert island?

(47:49) Grooving Session with Tim and Mary about uncertainty and decision making.

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

Woo-kyoung Ahn: https://wkahn.com/about 

Thinking 101: How to Reason Better to Live Better: https://amzn.to/3MW7dQH 

Episode 300, You Can Change Someone’s Mind But Are You Sure You Want To? | David McRaney: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/changing-minds-david-mcraney/ 

Episode 31, Leaving the Matrix: Annie Duke and Insights into how you can improve your thinking! https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/leaving-the-matrix-annie-duke-and-insights-into-how-you-can-improve-your-thinking/ 

Episode 345, The Tools You Need To Embrace Uncertainty | Nathan and Susannah Harmon Furr: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/tools-to-embrace-uncertainty/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

YoYo Ma playing J.S. Bach’s Cello Suite No.1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObSD2fXWU0I  

BTS “ Yet To Come (The Most Beautiful Moment)”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXpOEzNZ8hQ&ab_channel=HYBELABELS

Employee burnout, The Great Resignation, Office Covid Regulations; these are all major concerns for leaders in the workplace right now. But how can managers successfully navigate these stresses, while still maintaining productivity among staff?

At the start of the pandemic, Behavioral Grooves began a series of podcasts with researchers and practitioners to understand the organizational shifts we were seeing. Over the course of our interviews, we discovered big changes in the way business was being conducted and that managers, specifically, were really caught off guard. They didn’t have a coach or a guide to help them through all the changes. We decided to change that. And so, we created Leading Human™.

In this Grooving Session with Kurt Nelson PhD and Tim Houlihan, they sit down to discuss the following topics about Leading Human™:

• What is Leading Human™?
• Who is Leading Human™ going to benefit? 
• Why did the Behavioral Grooves team feel inspired to write Leading Human™?

While Leading Human™ was initiated by the pandemic, it goes well beyond the current workplace dynamics and delves into the core of how work will happen in the future. 

Ultimately Leading Human™ focuses on four key areas: 

• Creating Psychological Safety; 
• Building a Team Charter;
• Implementing Human-Centered Routines;
• Charting a Clear Path Forward.

Together, these can make a significant difference in employees' emotional connection to the company and successful re-entry to the workplace. Leading Human™ is full of practical tips and exercises to implement.

Leading Human™ Workbook and Playbook: https://www.behavioralgrooves-store.com/products/copy-of-the-leading-human-playbook-workbook-package

Leading Human™, Free Whitepaper Download: https://www.behavioralgrooves-store.com/collections/leading-human/products/human-centered-workplace-checklist

Leading Human™ Workshop on Nov 2nd, 2021 (more dates to be added soon): https://www.behavioralgrooves-store.com/collections/leading-human/products/leading-human-workshop

Promo Code: GROOVERS to receive $20 off (limited time offer for listeners).

Kurt and Tim kick off the new year with communications expert Ben Guttmann in an episode on simplifying messages.

Ben's seemingly simple lessons pack a punch, offering a treasure trove of insights into mastering clear and concise communication for both personal and professional success. Join Kurt and Tim as they navigate through Ben's five key principles, uncovering the secrets to crafting communications that truly hit the mark. From prioritizing benefits to maintaining focus, ensuring salience, embracing empathy, and adopting minimalism, the trio explores how these principles can transform your messaging strategy.

Discover how large organizations often lose sight of what customers are looking for and gain valuable insights into Ben’s exploration of effective vs. ineffective slogans and taglines for businesses. Unpack the importance of employing the 10-100 most common words and learn how testing messages with an "enlightened idiot" can be a game-changer.

Whether you're a cog in a corporate machine or an individual seeking to sharpen your communication skills, this episode offers practical lessons on making your message resonate and connect. Kickstart the new year with a communication overhaul and be sure to share this episode with anyone in your life in need of a communication refresh. Don't miss out on the keys to killer communication – like, share, and tune in now!

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

(4:29) Introduction and speed round

(9:23) Simplifying communication in a busy world

(14:15) Bridging the gap between message creators and receivers

(23:43) Effective marketing strategies for big corporations

(34:41) The 1000 most common words for clear communication

(39:33) Communicating with aliens and desert island music

(45:59) Grooving Session: Communication and breaking through clutter

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

Ben Guttman Simply Put: Why Clear Messages Win (and How to Design Them

Randall Munroe Thing Explainer

Harold Faltermeyer Top Gun Anthem

Arcade Fire Everything Now

To be influential you do not require power, but wielding your influence is powerful. Vanessa Bohns, social psychologist and professor of organizational behavior at Cornell University, joins us to discuss her enticing new book “You Have More Influence Than You Think”: https://amzn.to/39vCDIN. She draws from her research to illustrate why underestimating our influence can lead us to miss opportunities or worse yet, to misuse our power.

Vanessa challenges us to examine our powers of persuasion and to recognize that we have more influence than we even realize. We learn exactly why it’s so hard for us to say no, even when we’re uncomfortable with saying yes. And why we should focus on communicating more with people face-to-face.

As with all of our episodes, we leave you with a Grooving Session discussion focusing on how we can use Vanessa’s research to improve our lives, our relationships and our workplaces. Maybe this episode will influence you more than you realize? If it does, please support our ongoing work by contributing to our Patreon page at www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves (just imagine, if we asked you in person, would you say yes?).

(3:19) Welcome to Vanessa Bohns.

(5:46) How your enjoyment of chocolate is influenced by others.

(8:15) The spotlight effect; is everyone really looking at me?

(12:34) How can we influence people more than we think?

(17:20) How Vanessa discovered people are likely to help, if you ask.

(23:34) Why it’s so much harder to say no than we think.

(26:50) How power amplifies your influence.

(29:22) Why we need to recognize white privilege as a position of power.

(32:47) Communication: why our choice of words matter.

(34:13) Robert Cialdini’s Influence.

(36:30) What are the most common misconceptions about influence?

(41:07) What are the 2 biggest takeaways from the book?

(43:52) How music has influenced Vanessa.

(49:13) Grooving Session discussing how to apply Vanessa’s research.

© 2021 Behavioral Grooves

“You Have More Influence Than You Think: How We Underestimate Our Power of Persuasion, and Why It Matters” Book by Vanessa Bohns: https://amzn.to/39vCDIN 

John Bargh, Episode 248: Do We Control Situations or Do Situations Control Us? With John Bargh: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/control-situations-with-john-bargh/

Shankar Vedantam, Episode 222: How Delusions Can Actually Be Useful: Shankar Vedantam Reveals How: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/shankar-vedantam-useful-delusions/

Cristina Bicchieri, Episode 102: Social Norms are Bundles of Expectations:  https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/cristina-bicchieri-social-norms-are-bundles-of-expectations/

“Shared Experiences Are Amplified”  Erica J. Boothby, Margaret S. Clark, John A. Bargh (2014): https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797614551162 

“Good Lamps Are the Best Police: Darkness Increases Dishonesty and Self-Interested Behavior” Chen-Bo Zhong, Vanessa K. Bohns, Francesca Gino (2010): https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797609360754 

Robert Frank on the Power of Peer Pressure in Fighting Climate Change: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmOUNgXKd0c&ab_channel=Rare 

Robert Cialdini, Episode 226: The Power Of Unity: Robert Cialdini Expands His Best Selling Book Influence: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/cialdini-unity-in-influence/

How to Start a Movement | Dan Sivers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V74AxCqOTvg 

Bronksi Beats “Smalltown Boy”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88sARuFu-tc 

Sleigh Bells “Locust Laced”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzLOcmRRUfg 

The National “Light Years”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FQtSn_vak0 

Vampire Weekend “This Life”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwkrrU2WYKg 

David Bowie “Ashes to Ashes”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyMm4rJemtI 

Harry Styles “Watermelon Sugar”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKlD97TnYwM 

Billie Ellish “Everything I Wanted”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgBJmlPo8Xw 

Taylor Swift “Willow”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsEZmictANA 

Nirvana “Smells Like Teen Spirit”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTWKbfoikeg 

Want to help us improve Behavioral Grooves? Take our listener survey here!

Looking for your next great read? We’ve got you covered!

It’s time for our annual Best Books episode, where we share the standout reads that inspired and informed us this year. We’ve organized our picks into four categories—Leadership, Work Life, Relationships, and Critical Thinking—to help you find the perfect book for your personal or professional journey.

Whether you’re looking for fresh ideas, practical insights, or even a last-minute gift, this curated list has something for everyone. Join us as we explore the year’s most impactful reads and get ready to turn the page on some life-changing ideas!

©2024 Behavioral Grooves

[0:00] Welcome back to Best Books!

[2:37] Best Books for Leadership

[11:56] Best Books for Work Life

[19:23] Best Books for Relationships

[30:05] Best Books for Critical Thinking

[43:18] Wrap up - Happy Holidays from Behavioral Grooves!

©2024 Behavioral Grooves

Both and Thinking by Wendy Smith and Marianne Lewis

The Friction Project by Huggy Rao and Robert Sutton

Likable Badass by Alison Green

Is Your Work Worth It? by Christopher Michaelson and Jennifer Tosti-Kharas

Burnout Immunity by Kandi Wiens

The Ritual Effect by Mike Norton

Tightwads and Spendthrifts by Scott Rick

The Laws of Connection by David Robson

12 Questions for Love by Topaz Adizes

May Contain Lies by Alex Edmonds

You Only Die Once by Jody Wellman

Third Millennium Thinking by Saul Perlmutter, Robert M. Coon, and John Campbell

A Year of Living Constitutionally by AJ Jacobs

Kurt's Song of the Year: Ren - Money Ties

Tim's Song of the Year: Lake Street Dive - Nick of Time

We are always learning, whether it’s changing careers or learning a new instrument. But how do we transition from the curiosity stage, to completely mastering the skill? It turns out it’s a rather predictable process. The growth and learning journey we all embark on, many times in our life, can, according to Whitney Johnson, be visualized on the S Curve of Learning. The growth and learning journey comes in three phases: the Launch Point, the Sweet Spot, and Mastery. 

In this episode with Whitney and in her new book “Smart Growth: How to Grow Your People to Grow Your Company”, we can learn how to keep going when growth is slow and why we sometimes leap from one journey to another. By familiarizing ourselves with the growth journey, we can better ourselves, our workplaces and our societies. 

Not only has Whitney been a fascinating guest on our podcast, she has also generously given us some signed copies of her book for our listeners! All you have to do is write a Twitter post about why you would like to read Whitney’s book Smart Growth on social media and tag us in the post: @behavioralgroov. We will choose the lucky winners and send you a FREE SIGNED COPY!

(1:18) Find out how to WIN Whitney’s new book, “Smart Growth: How to Grow Your People to Grow Your Company”.

(4:11) What is the S Curve of Learning? 

(11:33) How we have learnt to integrate our work life and home life during the pandemic.

(15:44) Nobody climbs their S Curve alone; how important is context? 

(18:49) The 6 phases of the S Curve.

(26:28) How Shellye Archambeau jumped onto new S Curves in order to reach the summit.

(34:51) What is Whitney’s next challenge?

(40:58) Whitney’s S Curve with music.

(47:00) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim recapping what we learnt from Whitney.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

Win a signed copy of Whitney’s new book at @behavioralgroov

“Smart Growth: How to Grow Your People to Grow Your Company” by Whitney Johnson: https://amzn.to/3NpapCq 

“The Innovator's Dilemma: When New Technologies Cause Great Firms to Fail (Management of Innovation and Change)” by Clayton Christensen: https://amzn.to/3JE3mDu 

Thich Nhat Hanh quote: “You have to do it by yourself. You can not do it alone.”

Episode 204, How Shellye Archambeau Flies Like an Eagle: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/shellye-archambeau-like-an-eagle/ 

Disrupt Yourself Podcast: https://whitneyjohnson.com/disrupt-yourself-podcast/ 

Jacqueline Novogratz on Disrupt Yourself Podcast: https://whitneyjohnson.com/233-jacqueline-novogratz-when-the-work-gets-hard-look-for-beauty/ 

Simon Sinek on Disrupt Yourself Podcast: https://whitneyjohnson.com/simon-sinek/ 

Livingston Taylor On Disrupt Yourself Podcast: https://whitneyjohnson.com/livingston-taylor/ 

Sunil Gupta on Disrupt Yourself Podcast: https://whitneyjohnson.com/222-suneel-gupta/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon:  https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves.

Diana Krall “Just The Way You Are”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8RYUZT57XA 

Stevie Wonder “As”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYQfWJNWe3I 

Rodgers & Hammerstein“Getting To Know You” from The King and I: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vlx6gQWfjp0 

Aimee Nolte piano jazz tutorial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJCj7J69vsQ 

Tori Kelly “Don’t You Worry About A Thing”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Skq4IQmt58o 

Eric Oliver, PhD is a Professor of Political Science at the University of Chicago. Although the majority of his work is squarely in the realm of how we view our political systems and make political decisions, some of his work echoes moral psychology and sociology, and we find it fascinating. And, frankly, some of it is just downright fun to talk about.

Eric’s observations come from more than 20 years of research, dozens of peer-reviewed papers, and he is the author of 5 books on political science. We specifically talked about how liberals and conservatives name their children, the rise of intuitionism, having dinner with a sports star rather than a rock star, and of course, he spoke in-depth about conspiracy theories.

Most importantly, he walked us through some key aspects of how to have a conversation with someone who is on the opposite side of the conspiracy-theory belief system and, interestingly enough, it begins with empathy. Listen to the entire episode to hear all his insights and research anecdotes. They’ll put a smile on your face as well as fresh ideas into your brain!

We have been fans of his work for some time and are grateful that Eric shared his insights with us. We think you’ll become a fan, too, if you’re not already one.

© 2020 Behavioral Grooves

Eric Oliver, PhD: https://political-science.uchicago.edu/directory/eric-oliver

Jonathan Haidt, PhD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Haidt

James Frazer, “The Golden Bough”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Bough

Katherine Surma on Credulity: https://www.jericoliver.com/uploads/1/1/8/9/118973414/surmaoliver3.5.18-final.pdf

Laurie Santos, PhD: The Joe Effect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GimHHAID_P0

Steve Kerr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Kerr

Colin Kaepernick: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Kaepernick

Charles Manson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Manson

LCD Sound System: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqq3BtGrpU8

Kurt Weil: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Weill

Phillip Glass: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M73x3O7dhmg

Keith Richards and Chuck Berry: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERVLy-ltjHs

Chaning Jang is the CSO of the Busara Center for Behavioral Economics and has helped lead the organization since 2013. He is responsible for strategy, and a portfolio of projects, primarily focused on research. Prior to joining Busara, Chaning worked as an English teacher in the Czech Republic and an equities trader in Los Angeles. Chaning completed a Postdoc at Princeton University in Psychology and Public Affairs, holds a PhD in Economics from the University of Hawai'i with specialization in Behavioral Economics and Development, and a bachelor's in Managerial Economics from the University of California, Davis.  He is also a CFA level II holder.

We spoke to Chaning one night (for him) from his office in Nairobi, Kenya and we focused our discussion on context and how so much of psychological research has been focused in WEIRD countries (Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, and Democratic). Because of this focus and how behavior can be linked to cultural and social norms, countries that are not WEIRD are often unable to successfully apply the research that was executed in WEIRD cultures. Chaning is trying to change that.

The work that the Busara Center is doing is important on many levels, the most significant is trying to eliminate poverty at the heart of where it is the worst on earth: Africa. Chaning’s work is fascinating, his ideas sparkle with intensity, and his comments are inspiring. We hope you enjoy our conversation with Chaning Jang.

We are grateful to Allison Zelkowitz from Save the Children for connecting us.

Chaning Jang, PhD: https://www.busaracenter.org/staff-bios?tag=Chaning%20Jang

Busara Center for Behavioral Economics: https://www.busaracenter.org/

Dan Ariely, PhD: https://danariely.com/

WEIRD: https://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~henrich/pdfs/WeirdPeople.pdf

Johannes Haushofer, PhD: https://www.tedmed.com/speakers/show?id=621210

Kahneman & Tversky: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Kahneman

The Linda Problem (Conjunction Fallacy): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjunction_fallacy

Jeremy Shapiro, PhD: https://www.poverty-action.org/people/jeremy-shapiro

Economic and psychological effects of health insurance and cash transfers: Evidence from a randomized experiment in Kenya: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0304387818310289

Trier Social Stress Test: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trier_social_stress_test

Cold Pressor Test: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_pressor_test

Kevin Parker: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Parker_(musician)

Poverty Decreases IQ: https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/sendhil/files/976.full_.pdf

Tame Impala (Australian psych-rock): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C24hUt18RWY

John Lennon “Instant Karma”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfBPbFEel5k

Daft Punk with Pharrell Williams “Get Lucky”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkeIwhKIi84

Fleetwood Mac “The Chain”:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6P2_i0Y6ms

Joji “Your Man”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrtkU7i0qD8

Fleet Foxes “Can I Believe You”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2E2DpWO3-Y

Freddie Mercury “I’m The Great Pretender”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLRjFWDGs1g

© 2021 Behavioral Grooves

When did a colleague last thank you for your work? Managers generally underappreciate their employees, but more importantly, they tend to undervalue the benefits of expressing their gratitude. Best-selling author, speaker and executive coach, Chester Elton has a lighthearted discussion with us about the value of expressing gratitude. What makes gratitude different to recognition? And how do you create a grateful work environment?

Chester, along with his co-author, Adrian Gostick, have sold millions of books on how to lead with gratitude. In our conversation with Chester, he tells us how there is disparity between how well managers believe they are expressing their gratitude and how employees feel they are valued. To create a work environment based on gratitude, your colleagues need to know their work is appreciated. Showing gratitude to employees is the easiest, fastest and most inexpensive way to boost performance.      

(5:07) Welcome to Chester Elton and speed round questions

(8:03) Why being grateful brings us joy

(14:27) Be specific with praise

(17:16) The benefits of random acts of kindness

(22:33) What’s the difference between gratitude and recognition?

(23:48) How to create a work environment filled with gratitude  

(31:36) Your inner voice and why it matters

(35:08) Chester’s Covid playlist

(43:16) Grooving Session discussing how to apply Chester’s insights:

• Gratitude at work
• Recognition that we’re on track
• Expressing gratitude is not always through words
• Psychological safety at work

Chester Elton https://chesterelton.com/

Leading with Gratitude: Eight Leadership Practices for Extraordinary Business Results by Adrian Gostick & Chester Elton https://amzn.to/36Cy8uo

Leading with Gratitude Podcast with Chester Elton https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5idXp6c3Byb3V0LmNvbS8xMzI1MDUzLnJzcw?sa=X&ved=0CAMQ4aUDahcKEwjAoN-0keDxAhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQAg&hl=en 

Leading with Gratitude Live https://vimeo.com/search?q=Leading%20with%20Gratitude%20Chester%20Elton 

We Thrive Together https://www.wethrivetogether.global/

The Gratitude Journal – LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/the-gratitude-journal-6665677019063345152/

Anxiety at Work with Adrian Gostick & Chester Elton https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/anxiety-at-work-with-adrian-gostick-chester-elton/id1549312484

Roger Federer https://www.rogerfederer.com/

Rod Laver https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Laver

John McEnroe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McEnroe

Chris Hadfield https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Hadfield

Bill Manning https://www.torontofc.ca/content/bill-manning

Think Like a Monk: Train Your Mind for Peace and Purpose Every Day by Jay Shetty https://amzn.to/3h8mptC

Calm app https://www.calm.com/

Dan Airely https://danariely.com/ 

IKEA Effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_effect 

Episode 170: Seven Questions to Assess the Psychological Safety of Your Teams with Susan Hunt Stevens https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/seven-questions-to-assess-the-psychological-safety-of-your-teams-with-susan-hunt-stevens/

Episode 220: How Do You Become Influential? Jon Levy Reveals His Surprising Secrets https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-to-be-influential-jon-levy/

Leading with Gratitude: Eight Leadership Practices for Extraordinary Business Results https://amzn.to/36Cy8uo

Anxiety at Work: 8 Strategies to Help Teams Build Resilience, Handle Uncertainty, and Get Stuff Done https://amzn.to/3dr7gBK

All In: How the Best Managers Create a Culture of Belief and Drive Big Results https://amzn.to/3AgtSyk

The Best Team Wins: The New Science of High Performance https://amzn.to/2USP4KN

The Orange Revolution: How One Great Team Can Transform an Entire Organization https://amzn.to/3ybULSb

Bonnie Raitt “Something to Talk About” https://youtu.be/mJ58TVYNFro

Talking Heads “Psycho Killer” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O52jAYa4Pm8

Pharrell Williams “Happy” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbZSe6N_BXs

Danny Boy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ppdB6JX99Q

Between job uncertainty, political tension, holiday anxiety, and the general state of the world, stress and emotional exhaustion are at an all-time high. In this special ‘emergency episode’ ahead of the holidays, we break down why humans often unintentionally create stress through perception—and how our brain’s negativity bias amplifies it.

As you prep your holiday meal, tune in for science-backed strategies to reduce stress, from naming emotions and reframing self-talk to cultivating gratitude. We’ll also explore the power of healthy habits like sleep, exercise, and digital detoxes, plus how social connections—whether with loved ones or strangers—can help build resilience.

Later in the episode, producer Caroline shares her inspiring journey fostering rescue dogs and how it strengthened her sense of purpose and self-efficacy during tough times.

Join us for this timely discussion, and connect with the Groove Community on Facebook to share your own stress-busting tips. Wishing you a happy and healthy Thanksgiving!

©2024 Behavioral Grooves

[0:00] Emotional exhaustion and stressors

[5:25] Coping with stress and emotional awaredness

[15:27] Gratitude and journaling practices

[26:08] Healthy habits and reducing stress

[34:58] Social connection and purpose

[39:51] Volunteering and personal growth

[45:12] Conclusion: Managing stress and finding community

 ©2024 Behavioral Grooves

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Mariel Beasley is the Co-Director of the Common Cents Lab at the Center for Advanced Hindsight at Duke University. She works on applications of behavioral research, primarily in the financial services sector and public policy arena. She holds a Master of Public Policy degree from Duke University and her previous work experience includes a variety of nonprofits and charitable foundations.

As the leader of Common Cents Lab, she often develops partnerships with financial institutions to put behavioral science to good use through improving products, services and experiences for low-to-moderate households. 

We talked to Mariel about their work with low-to-middle-income households and the way the crisis is impacting them in ways that are not making headlines. Specifically, short-term savings rates are changing because so many households were caught flat-footed by mass layoffs, furloughs, and pay reductions. We also talked about how behavioral science helps us all to see problems better and gives us the tools to make better changes. 

We also discussed upward and downward social comparisons that occur when peeking into the homes of coworkers on video calls, and about expectations for productivity might change as a result of our massive work-from-home experience. 

We hope you enjoy our conversation with Mariel. 

© 2020 Behavioral Grooves

Connect with Kurt and Tim: 

Kurt Nelson, PhD: @WhatMotivates  e-mail: kurt@lanterngroup.com 

Tim Houlihan: @THoulihan  e-mail: tim@behavioralchemy.com 

Lantern Group: http://lanterngroup.com/

BehaviorAlchemy: https://www.behavioralchemy.com/

Behavioral Grooves: https://behavioralgrooves.com/

Weekly Grooves: https://weeklygrooves.podbean.com/

Common Biases & Heuristics: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XHpBr0VFcaT8wIUpr-9zMIb79dFMgOVFRxIZRybiftI/edit#

Patreon Site for Behavioral Grooves: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

General Coronavirus Info: 

Daily Newsletter Summarizing data from Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security: http://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/newsroom/newsletters/e-newsletter-sign-up.html

CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/index.html

Great videos on the science behind this by Dr. Peter Attia – this is the first in a series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNVhLyAlfA4

What is herd immunity?: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/615375/what-is-herd-immunity-and-can-it-stop-the-coronavirus/

A list curated by Liam.Delaney@UCD.ie 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11GLhX7hLf64Bxkdpv5hvYHqOjS1imlcMQFjJBJ-9oUM/edit

Coronavirus & Behavioral Science: 

Selected Links: The Behavioral Sice of Coronavirus: https://behavioralscientist.org/selected-links-the-behavioral-science-of-the-coronavirus-covid-19/

Why no one is reading your coronavirus email: https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/13/opinions/coronavirus-emails-effective-messaging-rogers/index.html

Handwashing can stop a virus, so why don’t we do it?: https://behavioralscientist.org/handwashing-can-stop-a-virus-so-why-dont-we-do-it-coronavirus-covid-19/

The behavioral science of handwashing: https://think.ing.com/articles/the-behavioural-science-of-hand-washing/ 

Ideas 42: The Behavioral Side of COVID-19 here: https://ideas42.org/covid19/ 

Greater Good: https://twitter.com/GreaterGoodSC

How We Can Cope During This Crisis: 

Tip Sheet from HUMU: https://humu.com/remote-nudges/

Resources for learning at home: https://fordhaminstitute.org/national/commentary/resources-learning-home-during-covid-19-school-closures?utm_source=join1440&utm_medium=email&utm_placement=etcetera

General Behavioral Science Links: 

Common Biases and Heuristics: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XHpBr0VFcaT8wIUpr-9zMIb79dFMgOVFRxIZRybiftI/edit#

Jonathan Haidt – 5 Moral Foundations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_foundations_theory

Annie Duke’s “How To Decide”: https://www.amazon.com/How-Decide-Simple-Making-Choices/dp/0593084608

“16 Ways To Promote Hand Washing With Behavioral Science” article by Aline Holzwarth: https://www.forbes.com/sites/alineholzwarth/2020/03/25/handwashing-with-behavioral-science/#261b4b9f768d

Aline Holzwarth’s Playlist on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/0H5fsQRrqslGdBhhx8d4Aw?si=0jra0rU1Qu2vQNtqjbRvZA

Deontological and Consequential Moralities: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ethics-deontological/#DeoTheKan

Difference between descriptive and injunctive norms: https://psychology.stackexchange.com/questions/6193/whats-the-difference-between-injunctive-norms-and-descriptive-norms

Emotion Research from FinalMile: http://finalmile.in/research/

Pandemic Playbook from FinalMile: https://www.playbookforpandemic.com/

 Ever wondered what it would be like to snag a backstage pass to history’s biggest moments? In Groove Jams' maiden voyage, Kurt, Tim, and special guest Christian Hunt take on the ultimate bucket list item: time travel. Prepare for a wild ride that’s part history lesson, part “what could possibly go wrong?”

Tune in for a rollercoaster of laughs, deep thoughts, and ethical dilemmas as we explore the slippery slope of time-hopping. What are the risks and rewards? Could curiosity lead to chaos? And most importantly, could we save the Beatles from Yoko Ono?

Christian Hunt is the founder of Human Risk, a Behavioral Science consulting and training firm specializing in risk, compliance, conduct & culture. Previously, Christian was the head of Behavioral Science at UBS and Chief Operating Officer of the Prudential Regulation Authority.  He is an expert on risk and how people perceive risk. 

We wanted to talk to Christian about how we perceive risk and whether or not our human biases are overblowing (or undervaluing) the current pandemic. We also chatted about a concept introduced to us by Deborah Small, a professor at Wharton, called distorted risk perception.

And Christian reminded us of one of the most important things to do, now more than ever: the best way to stop spreading the fake news virus is by leveraging our System 2 thinking. Be critical. Be skeptical of the sources of the material you’re reading and hearing. In sum: don’t outsource your critical thinking.

© 2020 Behavioral Grooves

Connect with Kurt and Tim:

Kurt Nelson, PhD: @WhatMotivates  e-mail: kurt@lanterngroup.com

Tim Houlihan: @THoulihan  e-mail: tim@behavioralchemy.com

Lantern Group: http://lanterngroup.com/

BehaviorAlchemy: https://www.behavioralchemy.com/

Behavioral Grooves: https://behavioralgrooves.com/

Weekly Grooves: https://weeklygrooves.podbean.com/

Common Biases & Heuristics: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XHpBr0VFcaT8wIUpr-9zMIb79dFMgOVFRxIZRybiftI/edit#

General Coronavirus Info:

Daily Newsletter Summarizing data from Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security: http://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/newsroom/newsletters/e-newsletter-sign-up.html

CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/index.html

Great videos on the science behind this by Dr. Peter Attia – this is the first in a series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNVhLyAlfA4

What is herd immunity? https://www.technologyreview.com/s/615375/what-is-herd-immunity-and-can-it-stop-the-coronavirus/

Coronavirus & Behavioral Science:

Selected Links: The Behavioral Sice of Coronavirus: https://behavioralscientist.org/selected-links-the-behavioral-science-of-the-coronavirus-covid-19/

Why no one is reading your coronavirus email: https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/13/opinions/coronavirus-emails-effective-messaging-rogers/index.html

Handwashing can stop a virus, so why don’t we do it?:  https://behavioralscientist.org/handwashing-can-stop-a-virus-so-why-dont-we-do-it-coronavirus-covid-19/

The behavioral science of handwashing: https://think.ing.com/articles/the-behavioural-science-of-hand-washing/

How we can cope or be better during this crisis:

Tip Sheet from HUMU: https://humu.com/remote-nudges/

Resources for learning at home: https://fordhaminstitute.org/national/commentary/resources-learning-home-during-covid-19-school-closures?utm_source=join1440&utm_medium=email&utm_placement=etcetera

General Behavioral Science and other info related or talked about in the series:

Common Biases and Heuristics: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XHpBr0VFcaT8wIUpr-9zMIb79dFMgOVFRxIZRybiftI/edit#

Jonathan Haidt – 5 Moral Foundations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_foundations_theory

Jürgen Klopp: https://ftw.usatoday.com/2020/03/jurgen-klopp-goes-off-on-reporter-after-being-asked-about-coronavirus-again

UBI (Universal Basic Income): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income

7-Minute Workout: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECxYJcnvyMw

4 Drive Model: https://www.leadersbeacon.com/how-great-leaders-use-the-4-drive-model-to-impact-employee-motivation/

Universal Basic Income: https://behavioralscientist.org/checkscheckschecks-why-we-need-a-universal-basic-income-now-coronavirus/

Why we are not going back to normal: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/615370/coronavirus-pandemic-social-distancing-18-months/

Do honest people steal? Our guest, Kelly Paxton investigates and researches low level crimes such as book-keeping fraud; also known as Pink Collar Crime. She discusses how a hostile work environment and the prospect of financial difficulties at home can lead “good” people to rationalize dishonest behavior.

Kelly Paxton is a former federal agent who was used to dealing with “bad guys.” Once she started working embezzlement cases, she quickly realized that honest people steal. 

The term pink-collar crime describes embezzlement type crimes that are typically committed by females. Can a man be a pink collar criminal?  The simple answer is yes.  It's the position not the gender but in these "pink" positions there are just more women than men. 

(4:25) Welcome and speed round questions.

(6:39) Why you should be concerned if your bookkeeper never takes a vacation.

(7:15) What is Pink Collar Crime? 

(10:20) How Kelly’s career and curiosity lead her into investigating Pink Collar Crime.

(14:48) What is The Fraud Triangle?

(19:14) Do women steal differently than men? 

(28:35) What are the common behaviors of people who embezzle? 

(31:17) Who benefits and who takes the blame for embezzlement? 

(37:53) Who should you trust?

(42:39) How people rationalize their dishonesty.

(45:49) What should companies do to prevent pink collar crime? 

(49:49) Kelly's favorite music and playlists.

Join us on our follow-on discussion in Episode 239 where Kurt and Tim have a Grooving Session on what Kelly has brought up in her interview and how we can apply insight from her interview into our own businesses.

© 2021 Behavioral Grooves

Kelly Paxton: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellypaxton/

Kelly Paxton, Embezzlement: How to Detect, Prevent, and Investigate Pink-Collar Crime: https://amzn.to/3i57hN1 

Great Women in Fraud: https://greatwomeninfraud.com/ 

Great Women in Fraud Podcast: https://podcast.greatwomeninfraud.com/ 

Dan Ariely: https://danariely.com/ 

The Dishonesty Project: https://www.thedishonestyproject.com/film/ 

Pink Collar Crime: https://pinkcollarcrime.com/what-is-pink-collar-crime 

How to Have a Good Day: Harness the Power of Behavioral Science to Transform Your Working Life by Caroline Webb: https://amzn.to/3eAaNhJ 

Episode 33: Caroline Webb: Having a Good Day: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/caroline-webb-having-a-good-day/

Go Fraud Me: http://gofraudme.com/ 

Rita Crundwell: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rita_Crundwell 

Talking to Strangers: What We Should Know about the People We Don't Know by Malcolm Gladwell: https://amzn.to/3i1sKGw 

Duped: Truth-Default Theory and the Social Science of Lying and Deception by Timothy Levine: https://amzn.to/3ehpWUC 

Big Little Lies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Little_Lies_(TV_series) 

Episode 86: Christian Hunt: Mitigating Human Risk and The Algorithmic Mind: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/christian-hunt-mitigating-human-risk-and-the-algorithmic-mind/

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Foo Fighters “The Pretender”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBjQ9tuuTJQ 

Harold Van Lennep “Liberation”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEzMeDybBG0 

Micheal Kiwanuka “Cold Little Heart”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOubjLM9Cbc&ab_channel=MichaelKiwanukaVEVO 

Gretchen Chapman, PhD researches how we make decisions about vaccines. She is a Professor in the Social & Decision Sciences department at Carnegie Mellon University and works across disciplines in both fields of judgment and decision making as well as health psychology.

She is the recipient of an APA early career award and an NJ Psychological Association Distinguished Research Award, a fellow of APA and APS.  She is a former senior editor at Psychological Science, a past president of the Society for Judgment & Decision Making, the author of more than 100 journal articles, and the recipient of 20 years of continuous external funding.

Our discussion covered a great deal of her work based on laboratory and field experiments, where she has tested behavioral interventions, simultaneously exploring the theoretical mechanisms of decision making and also yielding policy insights into methods for improving health behavior and health outcomes.

We talked about vaccination rates on influenza (between 33% to 50% of adults), measles (around 95%) and what impact a potential coronavirus vaccine might have on other vaccinations.

Her expert knowledge was particularly valuable in a world with lots of noise.

© 2020 Behavioral Grooves

Connect with Kurt and Tim: 

Kurt Nelson, PhD: @WhatMotivates  e-mail: kurt@lanterngroup.com 

Tim Houlihan: @THoulihan  e-mail: tim@behavioralchemy.com 

Lantern Group: http://lanterngroup.com/

BehaviorAlchemy: https://www.behavioralchemy.com/

Behavioral Grooves: https://behavioralgrooves.com/

Weekly Grooves: https://weeklygrooves.podbean.com/

Common Biases & Heuristics: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XHpBr0VFcaT8wIUpr-9zMIb79dFMgOVFRxIZRybiftI/edit#

Patreon Site for Behavioral Grooves: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

General Coronavirus Info: 

Daily Newsletter Summarizing data from Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security: http://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/newsroom/newsletters/e-newsletter-sign-up.html

CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/index.html

Great videos on the science behind this by Dr. Peter Attia – this is the first in a series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNVhLyAlfA4

What is herd immunity?: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/615375/what-is-herd-immunity-and-can-it-stop-the-coronavirus/

A list curated by Liam.Delaney@UCD.ie 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11GLhX7hLf64Bxkdpv5hvYHqOjS1imlcMQFjJBJ-9oUM/edit

Coronavirus & Behavioral Science: 

Selected Links: The Behavioral Sice of Coronavirus: https://behavioralscientist.org/selected-links-the-behavioral-science-of-the-coronavirus-covid-19/

Why no one is reading your coronavirus email: https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/13/opinions/coronavirus-emails-effective-messaging-rogers/index.html

Handwashing can stop a virus, so why don’t we do it?: https://behavioralscientist.org/handwashing-can-stop-a-virus-so-why-dont-we-do-it-coronavirus-covid-19/

The behavioral science of handwashing: https://think.ing.com/articles/the-behavioural-science-of-hand-washing/ 

Ideas 42: The Behavioral Side of COVID-19 here: https://ideas42.org/covid19/ 

Greater Good: https://twitter.com/GreaterGoodSC

How We Can Cope During This Crisis: 

Tip Sheet from HUMU: https://humu.com/remote-nudges/

Resources for learning at home: https://fordhaminstitute.org/national/commentary/resources-learning-home-during-covid-19-school-closures?utm_source=join1440&utm_medium=email&utm_placement=etcetera

General Behavioral Science Links: 

Common Biases and Heuristics: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XHpBr0VFcaT8wIUpr-9zMIb79dFMgOVFRxIZRybiftI/edit#

Jonathan Haidt – 5 Moral Foundations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_foundations_theory

Annie Duke’s “How To Decide”: https://www.amazon.com/How-Decide-Simple-Making-Choices/dp/0593084608

“16 Ways To Promote Hand Washing With Behavioral Science” article by Aline Holzwarth: https://www.forbes.com/sites/alineholzwarth/2020/03/25/handwashing-with-behavioral-science/#261b4b9f768d

Aline Holzwarth’s Playlist on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/0H5fsQRrqslGdBhhx8d4Aw?si=0jra0rU1Qu2vQNtqjbRvZA

Deontological and Consequential Moralities: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ethics-deontological/#DeoTheKan

Difference between descriptive and injunctive norms: https://psychology.stackexchange.com/questions/6193/whats-the-difference-between-injunctive-norms-and-descriptive-norms

Emotion Research from FinalMile: http://finalmile.in/research/

Pandemic Playbook from FinalMile: https://www.playbookforpandemic.com/

Liz Fosslien was our guest on Episode 56 and we asked her back to kick off our series on the behavioral aspects of how life is changing with quarantines, sheltering in place and working from home. Liz is the Head of Content at HUMU, a firm that combines people science and machine learning to create breakthroughs on a wide variety of people-centric measurements. Liz is also the co-author and illustrator of No Hard Feelings: The Secret Power of Embracing Emotions at Work. 

We discussed how this crisis has impacted our emotional wellbeing and how to get along while working from home (WFH).  Liz shared many insights and reinforced how working from home limits the informal bump-ins we traditionally get at work, and how to manage them in a digital world.

Connect with Kurt and Tim:

Kurt Nelson, PhD: @WhatMotivates  e-mail: kurt@lanterngroup.com

Tim Houlihan: @THoulihan  e-mail: tim@behaioralchemy.com 

Lantern Group: http://lanterngroup.com/

BehaviorAlchemy: https://www.behavioralchemy.com/

Behavioral Grooves: https://behavioralgrooves.com/

Weekly Grooves: https://weeklygrooves.podbean.com/

General Coronavirus Info:

Daily Newsletter Summarizing data from Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security: http://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/newsroom/newsletters/e-newsletter-sign-up.html

CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/index.html

Great videos on the science behind this by Dr. Peter Attia – this is the first in a series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNVhLyAlfA4

What is herd immunity? https://www.technologyreview.com/s/615375/what-is-herd-immunity-and-can-it-stop-the-coronavirus/

Coronavirus & Behavioral Science:

Selected Links: The Behavioral Sice of Coronavirus: https://behavioralscientist.org/selected-links-the-behavioral-science-of-the-coronavirus-covid-19/

Why no one is reading your coronavirus email:  https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/13/opinions/coronavirus-emails-effective-messaging-rogers/index.html

Handwashing can stop a virus, so why don’t we do it?:  https://behavioralscientist.org/handwashing-can-stop-a-virus-so-why-dont-we-do-it-coronavirus-covid-19/

The behavioral science of handwashing: https://think.ing.com/articles/the-behavioural-science-of-hand-washing/

How we can cope or be better during this crisis:

Tip Sheet from HUMU: https://humu.com/remote-nudges/

Resources for learning at home: https://fordhaminstitute.org/national/commentary/resources-learning-home-during-covid-19-school-closures?utm_source=join1440&utm_medium=email&utm_placement=etcetera

General Behavioral Science and other info related or talked about in the series:

Common Biases and Heuristics: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XHpBr0VFcaT8wIUpr-9zMIb79dFMgOVFRxIZRybiftI/edit#

Jonathan Haidt – 5 Moral Foundations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_foundations_theory

Jürgen Klopp: https://ftw.usatoday.com/2020/03/jurgen-klopp-goes-off-on-reporter-after-being-asked-about-coronavirus-again

UBI (Universal Basic Income): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income

7-Minute Workout: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECxYJcnvyMw

4 Drive Model: https://www.leadersbeacon.com/how-great-leaders-use-the-4-drive-model-to-impact-employee-motivation/

Universal Basic Income: https://behavioralscientist.org/checkscheckschecks-why-we-need-a-universal-basic-income-now-coronavirus/

Why we are not going back to normal: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/615370/coronavirus-pandemic-social-distancing-18-months/

Ever wonder why some habits stick effortlessly while others feel impossible to maintain?

In this episode, Kurt and Tim explore the powerful forces of habits, routines, and rituals that shape our daily lives. They dig into what habits are, how they form, and why they're so hard to change. From understanding the role of cues and rewards to distinguishing between habits and routines, Kurt and Tim break down the science and strategies behind these everyday behaviors. They also discuss the importance of starting small, aligning habits with your values, and the often overlooked difference between habits and rituals.

Whether you're looking to kick an old habit or start a new one, this episode offers practical advice and thought-provoking insights. And stay tuned for part two, where they’ll tackle the tricky topic of ending unwanted habits!

[0:00] Welcome to a solo-sode with Kurt and Tim!

[4:17] Habits and routines: The nuance

[10:45] What differentiates a habit from a routine?

[17:19] Habits, routines, and rituals 

[24:36] How to create motivation and achieve goals

[31:32] Creating new habits

[35:07] The key to consistency, grace, and personal growth

Charles Duhigg - The Power of Habit

Wendy Wood - Good Habits, Bad Habits

Brain/Shift Journal: Habits and Goals

Oliver Burkeman joins us to explore the power of imperfectionism and why waiting for the “perfect moment” is a trap. We discuss how perfectionism, productivity myths, and self-improvement frameworks can hold us back—and why embracing uncertainty is the key to doing meaningful work. Whether you’re looking to improve daily habits or rethink your approach to time and purpose, this conversation will inspire you to take action despite life’s inevitable messiness.

©2025 Behavioral Grooves

[00:00] Introduction & Why We Wait for the Perfect Moment

[4:15] Meet Oliver Burkeman: Author of Meditations for Mortals

[9:40] The Illusion of Control & The Productivity Trap

[15:30] What “Imperfectionism” Really Means

[22:45] Why Life Isn’t a Problem to Be Solved

[30:10] How Small Actions Create Big Meaning

[38:00] The Power of Letting Go & Taking the First Step

[45:50] Oliver’s Music Picks & The Importance of Everyday Moments

[1:00:00] Grooving Session: Final Takeaways & How to Apply This Philosophy Today

©2025 Behavioral Grooves

Oliver Burkeman

Meditations for Mortals: Four Weeks to Embrace Your Limitations and Make Time for What Counts

Four Thousand Weeks: Time Management for Mortals

Join the Behavioral Grooves community

Subscribe to Behavioral Grooves on YouTube

The Divine Comedy - To The Rescue 

Fountains of Wayne - Someone To Love 

Lin Manuel Miranda - Surface Pressure

What life habits keep our brain healthy? How does our mind respond to trauma? And why does the way we talk about suicide and mental health make such a difference to those who are struggling? We discuss all these topics with neuroscience researcher Dr Daniel Almeida.

To mark World Mental Health Day on Sunday, Oct 10, 2021, we decided to delve into the science behind mental health. And who better to help us with this topic than Daniel who has been named as one of Forbes 30 under 30 in science. His incredible work as a neuroscience researcher in the Douglas Research Centre at McGill University in Montreal, Canada, involves psychological autopsies to understand the molecular impacts of severe childhood abuse on the brains of individuals who died by suicide.

As you can imagine, this episode is full of difficult yet important topics. But what struck us most about Daniel was how upbeat and positive he is about his work and the difference it’s making to people’s lives. Daniel kindly shares his top 5 healthy brain habits that we can all adopt to improve our mental wellbeing. 

If you, or someone you know needs help with their mental health, please use one of the resources in the links below. 

Suicide Prevention Lifeline (US):https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/

American Foundation for Suicide Prevention: https://afsp.org/suicide-prevention-resources

Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration: National Helpline (US): 1-800-662-HELP (4357). SAMHSA’s National Helpline is a free, confidential, 24/7, 365-day-a-year treatment referral and information service (in English and Spanish) for individuals and families facing mental and/or substance use disorders. https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline 

The Canada Suicide Prevention Service: https://www.crisisservicescanada.ca/en/

Samaritans (UK): https://www.samaritans.org/ 

United for Global Mental Health (List of support networks around the world): https://unitedgmh.org/mental-health-support 

(6:29) Speed round.

(10:14) Does talking about suicide help?

(14:15) Why it’s very important to talk about “dying by suicide” instead of “committing suicide”.

(16:17) About Daniel’s work as a neuroscientist.

(17:47) What are the links between childhood trauma and suicide?

(25:16) What age are children most sensitive to the effects of trauma?

(31:19) How the type of trauma experienced by a child matters.

(33:36) How resilience is more like a sword than a shield.

(35:29) What are the 5 best brain health habits?

(41:57) What is a brain bank and how are psychological autopsies used?

(44:30) What music isn’t noise pollution for Daniel?

(46:24) Music and the brain.

(48:13) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim; how to apply Daniel’s work to your life.

© 2021 Behavioral Grooves

World Mental Health Day: https://www.who.int/campaigns/world-mental-health-day 

Leading Human™ Workbook and Playbook: https://www.behavioralgrooves-store.com/products/copy-of-the-leading-human-playbook-workbook-package

Leading Human™, Free Whitepaper Download: https://www.behavioralgrooves-store.com/collections/leading-human/products/human-centered-workplace-checklist

Leading Human™ Workshop on Dec 14th, 2021 (more dates to be added soon): https://www.behavioralgrooves-store.com/collections/leading-human/products/leading-human-workshop

Promo Code: GROOVERS to receive $20 off (limited time offer for listeners).

Episode 220: How Do You Become Influential? Jon Levy Reveals His Surprising Secrets: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-to-be-influential-jon-levy/

Dr Brenda Mildner – Mother of Psychological worked on bilateral hypocantim removal: https://www.mcgill.ca/neuro/about/brenda-milner

Donald Hebb: https://can-acn.org/donald-olding-hebb/#:~:text=Donald%20Hebb%20(1904%2D1985),which%20was%20published%20in%201949. 

“Molecular impacts of childhood abuse on the human brain”  Ibrahim, P.; Almeida, D.; Nagy, C.; Turecki, G. (2021): https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352289521000515?via%3Dihub 

“A Slice of the Suicidal Brain: What Have Postmortem Molecular Studies Taught Us?” Almeida, D. and Turecki, G. (2016): https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27671915/ 

“What Happened to You?: Conversations on Trauma, Resilience, and Healing”, by Oprah Winfrey and Bruce Perry: https://amzn.to/3lF7EQ7 

Brain structure of dancers and musicians https://www.falishakarpati.com/bio

Support Behavioral Grooves by donating on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves  

Gladys Knight & The Pips “Midnight Train to Georgia”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0F9lh8TiSM&ab_channel=GladysKnightTPVEVO 

Whitney Houston “I Will Always Love You”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JWTaaS7LdU 

The Supremes “Where Did Our Love Go”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTBmgAOO0Nw 

Stevie Wonder “As”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYQfWJNWe3I 

Marconi Union - Weightless Playlist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYnA9wWFHLI&t=6831s

Leidy Klotz is the Copenhaver Associate Professor of Architecture, Civil and Environmental Engineering at the University of Virginia. His research fills in underexplored overlaps between engineering and behavioral science, in pursuit of more sustainable environmental systems. He has published over 70 peer-reviewed articles in venues that include top academic journals in built environment engineering, engineering education, and design, as well as imprints of both Science and Nature.

We explored the rarity of subtraction from our lives and the fact that we tend to add things much more than we remove things. Granted, we’ve been builders of things since the dawn of civilization, but when is enough, enough? Leidy suggested we begin any initiative by subtracting before we start adding.  

We traced the concept from Lao Tzu through DaVinci through Kurt Lewin and right up into today’s literature with Marie Kondo and Tim Ferriss. But Leidy’s thoughts are truly fresh because he is adding to this historical narrative with scientific data. He offered us fresh ways to think about this uphill battle with our natural desires. 

We also discussed Leidy’s view of the Planetary Tipping Point: where our very fixed-resource planet gets maxed out by humans with an unlimited desire for more. And we were pleased to talk about Kurt Lewin and his force-field analysis and, as you might expect, we enthusiastically discussed Bruce Springsteen as a prolific and gifted writer. 

We hope you enjoy our discussion with Leidy Klotz, and if you do, please leave us a quick review or join our Patreon team at https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves. 

Links

Leidy Klotz, PhD: https://engineering.virginia.edu/faculty/leidy-klotz

Lego https://www.lego.com/en-us 

Harry Potter Lego Set - Hogwarts https://www.lego.com/en-us/search?q=harry%20potter%20hogwarts 

Wildlife Bingo https://www.nature-watch.com/wildlife-bingo-game-p-176.html 

Michael Jordan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Jordan 

Bruce Springsteen https://brucespringsteen.net/ 

Mayan City of Coba https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coba 

Marie Kondo https://konmari.com/ 

Tim Ferris https://tim.blog/ 

Da Vinci https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo_da_Vinci 

Lao Tzu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laozi 

Bowerbird https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowerbird 

Allison Zelkowitz https://www.linkedin.com/in/allison-zelkowitz-197431a/?originalSubdomain=lb 

Chaning Jang https://www.busaracenter.org/staff-bios/chaning-8f39x 

Kurt Lewin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Lewin 

Kate Orff, Lexington Waterway Project https://www.scapestudio.com/people/kate-orff/ 

Dan Ariely “Predictably Irrational” https://danariely.com/books/predictably-irrational/ 

Roger Dooley “Friction” https://www.rogerdooley.com/books/friction/ 

Musical Links

Bruce Springsteen “Darkness On The Edge Of Town” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg0ekQBmzKs 

Bruce Springsteen “Born In The USA”  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPhWR4d3FJQ 

Bruce Springsteen “Western Stars” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IXzAAKrsFE 

Bruce Springsteen “Letter to You” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQyLEz0qy-g 

Topics

3:20 Leidy’s 6-year-old son answers a speed round question

4:34 Speed round with Leidy

7:14 Leidy’s book - Subtraction

13:00 “More-ality”

24:00 Planetary tipping points

26:15 Kurt Lewin force field theory

29:28 Kate Orff Lexington Waterways Project

33:40 Subtraction checklist

37:57 Springsteen

45:24 Grooving

Interview Quotes

(8:10) we're doing these mental searches for solutions, and our mind goes to additive solutions before it goes to subtractive ones. 

(12:01) as people are trying to change things from how they are to how they want them to be, we systematically think of adding first and then, only subsequently or with effort or with reminders, think of subtraction

(35:15) so often we kind of come to a problem and don't actually spend time defining what the what the problem is, right

(9:51)  My favorite is Lao Tzu, even farther back talking about, to gain wisdom, you have to subtract something every day.

The "cult of never enough" encourages the belief that more money, possessions and achievements will make us happy. But Manisha Thakor has learnt through personal experience that emotional wealth is more important than financial wealth. Listen to learn how to redefine your success. 

Manisha Thakor is the author of the book Money Zen: Escape the Cult of Never Enough and Reclaim Your Life. In this episode of Behavioral Grooves, she discusses with Kurt and Tim how she chased the American dream of financial success for 30 years before realizing it had become a nightmare. She became a workaholic and lost sight of what truly brings happiness. 

Manisha talks about how the "cult of never enough" encourages the belief that more money, possessions and achievements will make us happy. However, she realized that emotional wealth is more important than financial wealth. She discusses the importance of financial health over wealth, which includes having enough to meet your needs without stress.

How does society measure success in terms of money, power and productivity rather than by character and contribution? Manisha talks about the Buddhist concept of the "hungry ghost" which represents our insatiable desires. She argues that the answer is often "less" - shedding commitments, possessions and being still in nature. 

Listen to find out how to redefine success beyond financial wealth and move towards a balance of financial health and emotional wealth.

If you’d like to support the work of Behavioral Grooves, you can become a Behavioral Grooves Patreon member.

(3:45) Welcome and speed round questions.

(5:54) What is a busy badge?

(8:57) The social comparison aspect of wealth.

(13:00) The rise of the Blackberry culture.

(20:34) What you do is who you are?

(24:13) Chasing after the American Dream.

(28:46) A classic second generation immigrant story.

(31:08) Emotional wealth and financial health.

(38:42) What is the Hungry Ghost?

(42:58) The music Manisha would take to a desert island.

(46:29) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim on redefining success. 

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

Manisha Thakor’s book, MoneyZen: The Secret to Finding Your "Enough": https://amzn.to/3JtuuXV 

Episode 102, Cristina Bicchieri: Social Norms are Bundles of Expectations: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/cristina-bicchieri-social-norms-are-bundles-of-expectations/ 

Dr Malissa Clark – University of Georgia: https://psychology.uga.edu/directory/people/malissa-clark 

Matthew A. Killingsworth, Daniel Kahneman and Barbara Mellers (2022) “Income and emotional well-being: A conflict resolved”: https://www.pnas.org/doi/epdf/10.1073/pnas.2208661120 

Episode 215, Secrets of Subtraction: Donut Holes, Lego and Bruce Springsteen with Leidy Klotz: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/subtraction-with-leidy-klotz/ 

Schulte Brigid, “Why being too busy makes us feel so good,” Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-being-too-busy-makes-us-feel-so-good/2014/03/14/c098f6c8-9e81-11e3-a050-dc3322a94fa7_story.html 

DeGreeff, B., Burnett, A., & Cooley, D. (2009). “Communicating authenticity or inauthenticity in a fast-paced world,” Journal of Happiness Studies: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225649342_Communicating_and_Philosophizing_About_Authenticity_or_Inauthenticity_in_a_Fast-Paced_World 

The Hungry Ghost: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungry_ghost 

MoneyZen quiz online: https://quiz.tryinteract.com/#/646d1000fec8ca0014804a9e 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves  

Vivaldi “Four Seasons”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRxofEmo3HA 

Lionel Hampton “Flying Home”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_rTICMVXQQ

Take a deep breath. Step outside. Smell the coffee. Tune in to Behavioral Grooves.

This week, Kurt and Tim sit down with Emma Seppälä, author of "Sovereign," to discuss the importance of understanding and embracing our emotions, practicing self-compassion, and relying on intuition in our decision-making process. In this empowering conversation, Emma emphasizes the transformative power of self-compassion and self-love in our daily lives.

Do you have trouble accepting praise from others? Is your tendency toward self-criticism too automatic? Sometimes, we need to step outside ourselves and reconnect with the world around us to practice gratitude, change our perspective, and erase negative self-talk to improve our mental well-being.

If you’re seeking more agency in life or starting a journey of personal growth, tune in to learn about the impact of self-compassion on relationships and happiness and the importance of intuition in decision-making, creativity, and problem-solving. Join us as we explore these themes and more, offering actionable steps to reclaim your freedom, energy, and power in today’s hectic world.

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

[3:30] Thanks to our listeners!

[6:37] Intro and speed round

[11:05] Self-awareness and personal growth

[19:02] Why does society focus on criticism more than praise?

[26:29] Intuition and its role in decision-making

[35:07] Meditation and mindfulness for emotional intelligence

[40:00] Gratitude and mental health

[47:02] Desert Island music

[49:05] Grooving Session: Positivity, praise, and work-life balance

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

Sarah Glenister, Australasian Change Days

About Emma

Sovereign: Reclaim Your Freedom, Energy, and Power in a Time of Distraction, Uncertainty, and Chaos

Mahamrityunjaya Mantra, Ancient Chant for Healing & Peace

Indian Flute Music, Compilation

World-class pediatric surgeon, social scientist, and best-selling author Dr Dana Suskind MD talks about the Three T's (tune in, talk more and take turns) that parents can do to nurture their children’s brain development and the key ways that society needs to change to invest in the next generation.

Dana is the founder and co-director of the TMW Center for Early Learning & Public Health, and Professor of Surgery and Pediatrics at the University of Chicago. She is also the director of the Pediatric Cochlear Implant Program, and is recognized as a national thought leader in early language development. Her research is dedicated to optimizing foundational brain development and preventing early cognitive disparities and their lifelong impact. Honestly, when she talks about raising kids…we need to listen.

Most recently, Dana has released a fantastic new book detailing the powerful blueprint that society should be taking to meet the developmental needs of all children. We talk more with Dana about why she wrote Parent Nation: Unlocking Every Child's Potential, Fulfilling Society's Promise and how the status quo for parenting in America is not serving parents and children well.

If you enjoy Dana’s episode on Behavioral Grooves Podcast, you can support our work through our Patreon page. You can also write a short podcast review on your podcast player; doing so helps other listeners find our show.

(4:58) Welcome and speed round questions. 

(9:25) How has American individualism influenced the way we parent our children?

(13:05) How significant is the lack of parental leave in the US?

(17:37) Internalizing parental guilt.

(19:28) Reframing your self talk around raising your kids. 

(21:17) The influence of the pandemic on parenting.

(25:19) What has been the impact of the pandemic on children?

(27:28) Why language is so important to early development.

(30:20) The 3 Ts of foundational brain development.

(31:56) The personal trauma that influenced Dana’s writing.

(34:19) What positive support systems are there to help parents?

(39:31) Dana’s ambition to write behavioral economics music!

(41:26) Grooving Session discussing Parent Nation.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

“Parent Nation: Unlocking Every Child's Potential, Fulfilling Society's Promise” by Dana Suskind MD:  https://amzn.to/3wD8YIQ 

John List, Episode 296: Fail to Scale: Why Good Research Doesn’t Always Make Great Policy: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/fail-to-scale-john-a-list/ 

Linda Babcock, Episode 293: Women Do Too Much Non-Promotable Work: How To Say No More with Linda Babcock: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/women-do-too-much/ 

Meryl Streep: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meryl_Streep 

John Amos Comenius: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Amos_Comenius 

Caitlyn Collins, Washington University: https://sociology.wustl.edu/people/caitlyn-collins 

TMW Center for Early Learning + Public Health at the University of Chicago: https://tmwcenter.uchicago.edu/ 

“Thirty Million Words: Building a Child's Brain” by Dana Suskind MD: https://amzn.to/3wJ1MLl 

Dolly Chugh, Episode 230: How Good People Fight Bias with Dolly Chugh: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/cristina-bicchieri-social-norms-are-bundles-of-expectations/ 

David Yokum, Episode 282: Why Applying Behavioral Science to Public Policy Delivers Better Policy: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/behavioral-science-in-public-policy/ 

Cristina Bicchieri, Episode 102: Social Norms are Bundles of Expectations: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/cristina-bicchieri-social-norms-are-bundles-of-expectations/ 

Support Behavioral Grooves Patreon page: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Johnny Cash “I Walk The Line”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5126CibNsk 

In this grooving session, Kurt and Tim share how to conduct a behavioral diagnosis. A behavioral diagnosis is a tool we use to uncover the underlying drivers of behavior inside an organization to bring about meaningful change, all with the use of applied behavioral science.

Kurt and Tim have been conducting behavioral diagnoses for many years and have found that leaders often don’t understand why their employees behave the way they do – particularly when it comes to employees response to changes in the workplace.  Leaders all too often expect announcements of corporate changes will be met by rational responses from the employees. However, people are not always rational, and to make things more difficult, don’t understand their own motivational drives.

This renders surveys and employee satisfaction studies irrelevant because theses tools don’t get to the heart of the behavioral beast. In order understand the drivers of employee behavior, you must go below the surface. That’s where the behavioral diagnosis comes in.

The process of a behavioral diagnostic varies from situation to situation, but typically begins with identifying the key strategic objectives through interview key stakeholders (leadership, typically). Then we research the status quo: what is the culture, what programs are in place, what are the current behaviors of the employees and why are they doing those things? Next we conduct interviews and/or focus groups to get at the underlying motivational drives of the employees.

After a complete analysis of trends and available data, Kurt and Tim make recommendations to the leaders and develop interventions to bring about change.

If you’re interested in learning more about a Behavioral Diagnosis for your organization, please contact us so we can start a conversation.

© 2020 Behavioral Grooves

Kurt Nelson: @WhatMotivates

Tim Houlihan: @THoulihan

“A Battle Between Sales & Marketing” by Tim Houlihan: https://www.behavioralchemy.com/the-battle-between-sales-and-marketing

Why do people train for a marathon? Listen to sad music? Eat really spicy food? All of these activities induce a painful response, yet they also bring us pleasure. We often set ourselves up for negative experiences because it primes us for positive ones further down the line. There is a balance, a sweet spot if you will, between the amount of pleasure we experience and the suffering that it takes to get us there.

World-renowned psychologist and author Paul Bloom, joins us on this episode to discuss his most recent book The Sweet Spot: The Pleasures of Suffering and the Search for Meaning (https://amzn.to/3Kmpweh). He challenges our definition of a fulfilling life, and why we actually NEED suffering to be part of it.

We are so conditioned in our culture to only seek out pleasure that even the notion of reading about suffering was not particularly appealing to us, well to Tim - it turns out Kurt might be somewhat of a benign masochist! But from the get-go, Paul’s compelling narrative convinced us that suffering can be motivating. Listen in and tell us if you think there is a sweet spot, and then reach out to us on email (info@behavioralgrooves.com), on Twitter (@behavioralgroov) or write us a quick review about the show (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/behavioral-grooves-podcast/id1303870112). Thanks!

(4:40) Welcome and speed round questions.

(7:24) Why do we choose suffering?

(11:24) Do we really only seek pleasure?

(13:40) We often have mistaken ideas about what we want.

(16:16) Looking beyond happiness; what we actually pursue for a meaningful life.

(22:24) How can suffering help pleasure?

(24:59) How being in a state of flow explains the sweet spot.

(28:27) Why are people driven to climb Everest? 

(32:32) What are the unpleasant sensations that people do not pursue?

(34:37) Pain then pleasure or pleasure then pain?

(36:13) The effect of the peak-end rule.

(38:40) Why do we want to listen to sad music? 

(45:11) Grooving Session discussing how Paul’s work can improve our lives.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

“The Sweet Spot: The Pleasures of Suffering and the Search for Meaning” by Paul Bloom: https://amzn.to/3Kmpweh 

Shaquille O’Neal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaquille_O%27Neal

“Just think: The challenges of the disengaged mind” by Wilson et al (2014): https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1250830?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori:rid:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub%3dpubmed 

Paul Rozin: https://web.sas.upenn.edu/rozin/

“Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience” by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi: https://amzn.to/3qyLRgB  

“A psychologically rich life: Beyond happiness and meaning” by Oishi and Westage (2021): https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2021-74886-001

“Anticipation and the valuation of delayed consumption.” by George Loewenstein (1987): https://www.jstor.org/stable/2232929 

Episode 67, George Loewenstein: On a Functional Theory of Boredom:  https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/george-loewenstein-on-a-functional-theory-of-boredom/

“When More Pain Is Preferred to Less: Adding a Better End” by Kahneman et al (1993): https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1467-9280.1993.tb00589.x 

Jeremy Bentham: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Bentham 

Richard Tedeschi, The Science of Post-Traumatic Growth: https://scottbarrykaufman.com/podcast/richard-tedeschi-the-science-of-post-traumatic-growth/ 

The Prophet by Khalil Gibran: https://amzn.to/329fN9O 

Episode 207, Jonathan Mann: Is it Possible to Design an Experience? https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/jonathan-mann-is-it-possible-to-design-an-experience/

Adele “Someone Like You”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLQl3WQQoQ0 

Alice Cooper “Poison”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq4j1LtCdww 

Pink Floyd “On The Turning Away”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojf18wT_Xtk 

Eminem “Lose Yourself”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Yhyp-_hX2s 

The Proclaimers “I’m Gonna Be (500 Miles)”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbNlMtqrYS0 

Joan Armatrading “Consequences”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Otq9VBa6a0s 

David Bowie & Nine Inch Nails “Hurt”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhhEHuChFck&ab_channel=redsails2008 

Billy Joel “Piano Man”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxEPV4kolz0 

Violent String Quartet “Bad Guy”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWUbCwmBmgE 

Women are more likely to volunteer for a non-promotable task at work, than men. But why do women volunteer themselves more? What repercussions does this have on women and on the organization? And how can workplaces fix this inequity?

Non promotable tasks (NPTs) are the pieces of work that are good for the organization, but not so good for the individual. It’s the request from your boss to organize the holiday party, or the task of ordering sandwiches for the team lunch, or the mission of being on the review committee. And the problem, says Linda and her co-authors, is that women are doing the vast majority of these non-promotable tasks for no reason other than people expect them to.

Linda Babcock is a longtime friend of the show, having first appeared on Behavioral Grooves Podcast back in April 2019 to talk about promoting the careers of women in the workplace. Since then, Linda has co-authored a fantastic new book advocating further for women in the workplace; “The No Club: Putting a Stop to Women's Dead-End Work”. Having formed “The No Club” with a group of other women, in an effort to regain balance in their workload, Linda and her fellow group members have written about their personal experience of learning to say NO to NPTs. 

Make no mistake, Linda’s book is not a guide for women, it is a guide for anyone who works with or knows women! Weaving practical tips into ever chapter of the book, Linda and her co-authors outline clear steps in how to avoid and fix the problem of workload inequity. And the benefits aren’t limited to women either - organizations can improve their productivity and profitability as a result of addressing these problems.

In this episode with Linda we relish the opportunity to discuss with her the practical ways women, men and organizations can rebalance the workload of NPTs. If you are a regular listener to the show, please consider support our work through our Patreon page. If donating isn’t an option for you, don’t worry, you can’t write us a podcast review on your podcast player which will help other listeners find our show.

(4:40) What are non promotable tasks (NPTs)?

(7:47) Why do women do more NPTs?

(12:50) Is there racial inequity with NPTs as well?

(14:11) Tips for how women can say no to NPTs.

(18:31) How can organizations fix the problem of NPTs?

(21:27) How men can change the NPT culture at work.

(25:55) Linda’s personal story of forming The No Club.

(27:45) Linda’s desert island music choices.

(31:21) Grooving session with Kurt and Tim on how to improve the culture of NPTs at your work..

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

“The No Club: Putting a Stop to Women's Dead-End Work”: https://amzn.to/3KPuUFM 

Episode 62, Linda Babcock: Helping Women Build Better Careers at Carnegie Mellon: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/linda-babcock-helping-women-build-better-careers-at-carnegie-mellon/ 

Episode 67, George Loewenstein: On a Functional Theory of Boredom: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/george-loewenstein-on-a-functional-theory-of-boredom/

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Leading Human Workbook and Playbook: https://www.behavioralgrooves-store.com/products/copy-of-the-leading-human-playbook-workbook-package

The Rolling Stones “You Can’t Always Get What You Want”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3XzO_cOOVU 

Bruno Mars “24K Magic”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqyT8IEBkvY&ab_channel=BrunoMars 

The Mountain Goats “Golden Boy Peanuts”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIVNv9XZgG8&ab_channel=elijahlupe 

CORRECTION: In this episode, we incorrectly state that Michael Hallsworth started the BIT North American team.  In fact, the BIT North America team was founded in 2015 by Elspeth Kirkman. Under Elspeth’s leadership, the team delivered over 100 trials to cities across the US before she returned to the UK in 2018, which was when Michael Hallsworth came to Brooklyn to manage the group. We regret the error and thank Elizabeth Linos, PhD for calling attention to it.

In their book, “Behavioral Insights,” Michael Hallsworth and Elspeth Kirkman took time to think through the critical steps in the design and execution of a behavioral intervention. It’s a framework that could be applied to any significant behavior change you might consider and it comes from a book that Kurt and Tim consider among the best of 2020.

Michael Hallsworth is the Managing Director of the North American Behavioral Insights Team and has helped develop frameworks such as MINDSPACE and EAST. He is a thoughtful researcher with outstanding work to his credit; at the same time, he’s quick to point out when his research ideas don’t play out as he expected them to.

Elspeth Kirkman helped open the North American BIT unit but is now back in London, where she is responsible for BIT’s work on health, education, and local government. We first featured Elspeth for her work on frameworks and models in Episode 166 and we're so happy to see that she and Michael co-authored what we consider one of the best behavioral science books of 2020.

Their book, “Behavioral Insights,” was commissioned and published by MIT Press for their Essential Knowledge Series. The book very explicitly outlines HOW to design and implement a behavior change initiative. Their 10-step model carefully lays out this process and we were extremely happy to see that the first 7 steps are all about design.

We discussed ethics and transparency in the way interventions are implemented. These considerations are central to much of the work that they do, especially when it comes to the development of governmental policies.

We also discussed rationality and who gets to decide what is rational and what isn’t. This was a particularly powerful concept since we know that humans do a great job defending their actions. To what degree is it rational or rationalizing?

Regrettably, due to time constraints, we were not able to chat about music. We’ll save it for next time. Right now, we hope you enjoy our conversation with Elspeth and Michael.

© 2020 Behavioral Grooves

Michael Hallsworth: @mhallsworth

Elspeth Kirkman: @karminker

“Behavioral Insights”: https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/behavioral-insights

Menorca Island: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menorca

Gerd Gigerenzer: https://www.mpib-berlin.mpg.de/staff/gerd-gigerenzer

Dan Ariely, “Predictably Irrational”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictably_Irrational

Common Biases and Heuristics: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XHpBr0VFcaT8wIUpr-9zMIb79dFMgOVFRxIZRybiftI/edit?usp=sharing

Eugen Dimant, Episode 169: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/eugen-dimant-phd-what-to-do-about-bad-apples/

NYC Cab Driver Study (Loewenstein, Thaler, Babcock and Camerer): https://www.cmu.edu/dietrich/sds/docs/loewenstein/NYCCabdrivers.pdf

Behavioral Grooves Episode 41 on Hallsworth: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/michael-hallsworth-from-mindspace-to-east/

Behavioral Grooves 100th Episode: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/the-100th-episode-celebration-in-philadelphia/

Behavioral Grooves Episode 166 on Kirkman: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/elspeth-kirkman-best-models-for-identifying-a-problem/

Nudge.It North: https://www.nudgeitnorth.com/learn

Kurt Nelson, PhD: @whatmotivates

Tim Houlihan: @THoulihan

Ever need to read a book in a hurry? How can you absorb the most relevant content in a short period of time? Join Kurt and Tim as they talk to their friend Christian Hunt of the Human Risk Podcast, for tips and tricks to read quickly and effectively.

We’ve all been stuck with a last minute deadline that involves getting through a large amount of reading material. How do you approach it? As podcasters, we read a lot of content before interviewing the guests. So how do Kurt and Tim from Behavioral Grooves Podcast and Christian from the Human Risk Podcast tackle such a mammoth task.

This is a special episode for Behavioral Grooves that was recorded a few months ago in Abbey Road studios when Kurt and Tim were in London, UK. Christian has joined us many times on the podcast so we enjoyed talking about a different topic on this episode.

(4:15) What to look for when you open the book - Kurt. 

(8:54) Christian on why it’s not always good to speed read the whole book.

(12:19) What Tim’s “Kahneman Index” is exactly!

(14:10) How speed reading a research paper is different from a book.

(20:22) The top 2 tips on speed reading from Christian, Kurt and Tim.

Episode 86, Christian Hunt: Mitigating Human Risk and The Algorithmic Mind: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/christian-hunt-mitigating-human-risk-and-the-algorithmic-mind/ 

Episode 336, The Best Behavioral Science Books Of 2022 (According to Kurt and Tim!): https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/best-2022-behavioral-science-books/ 

Episode 277, Daniel H. Pink - No Regrets? Really? Why Regrets Actually Bring Us Hope: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/why-regrets-bring-us-hope/

Has Behavioral Grooves turned into a political podcast?

Not really (ok, maybe kinda it has - but for just a few weeks, we promise ). With the 2024 election days away, however, it’s felt nearly unavoidable for many people, including us. Attending the Norms and Behavior Change Conference (NoBeC), titled, Democracy Under Threat, sparked some essential thoughts and insights that we feel compelled to share.

Democracy relies on fragile social norms that are under serious threat right now. From startling statistics about the rise of autocracies worldwide to the surge in misinformation, it’s clear that a renewed commitment to democratic norms is needed now more than ever. So, here’s a crucial question for all of us to consider: Is party loyalty more important than the stability of our democracy?

Join us to rethink democracy—not just as a system but as a collective responsibility – bound together by shared beliefs. Your voice matters, your vote is essential, and together, we can help fortify democracy. If you don’t have a plan for where and when you’re going to vote, put one together. Get a friend to vote with you. You may feel disenfranchised or fatigued or angry or sad…just make sure you vote. And put a happy spin on your voting experience: celebrate the fact that we can vote by baking an election cake (or election pie or even election cookies) to bring to the polls! Democracy is fragile, please treat it with respect.

©2024 Behavioral Grooves

Special Thanks to: Cristina Bicchieri, Kaushik Basu, Diana Mutz, Gretchen Helmke, Horacio Larreguy, Christoph Abels, Ryan Enos, Robert Talisse, Giulia Maimone, Erik Groenendyk, Nikos Nikiforkis, Cesar Nuñez, Karine Nyborg, Jan Voelkel and Ryan Enos for their participation in NoBeC and their fascinating research!

[0:08] Understanding Democracy and Social Norms

[3:07] The Fragility of Democracy

[9:34] Polarization and Media Influence

[17:43] The Role of Political Elites

[19:55] Gratitude and Closing Thoughts

©2024 Behavioral Grooves

Find Your Polling Place

Polarization Series

Center for Social Norms and Behavioral Dynamics

Cristina Bicchieri

Kaushik Basu

Diana Mutz

Gretchen Helmke

Horacio Larreguy

Christoph Abels

Ryan Enos

Robert Talisse

Giulia Maimone

Erik Groenendyk

Nikos Nikiforkis

Cesar Nuñez

Karine Nyborg

Jan Voelkel

What separates a ritual from a habit? Join Kurt and Tim this week as they delve into the intriguing world of rituals and habits with special guest Mike Norton, acclaimed author of The Ritual Effect. Together, they explore the nuances that distinguish rituals from mere habits, shedding light on how rituals infuse our daily lives with meaning and significance.

According to Michael, rituals are more than just actions; they're meaningful celebrations or purpose-driven practices that elevate our routines. From something as simple as brushing your teeth to larger group activities, the trio discusses how rituals add depth and emotion to our everyday experiences.

As the episode unfolds, Kurt, Tim, and Mike examine how rituals impact not only individuals but also relationships and work teams. They navigate the delicate balance between rituals that unite and those that divide, emphasizing the importance of consensus in fostering a sense of belonging and satisfaction.

Through personal anecdotes and keen insights, the trio offers listeners a thought-provoking journey into the profound influence of rituals on behavior, perceptions, and relationships. Don't miss out on this enlightening discussion! Tune in to gain a deeper understanding of the rituals that shape our lives. And if you enjoy the episode, be sure to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform—we'd love to hear your thoughts and continue the conversation.

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

[5:33] Intro and speed round

[10:24] Is brushing your teeth a ritual?

[14:00] The benefits and limitations of rituals and habits in daily life

[20:19] Rituals in relationships

[24:00] The meaning behind group rituals

[33:20] Corporate team-building activities

[42:33] The role of music in cultural rituals and traditions

[51:27] Grooving session: Rituals and their meanings in daily life

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

The Ritual Effect

Michael Norton

Michael's TED Talk - Why Rituals Matter

The Band “Atlantic City”

Gillian Welch “I Want to Sing That Rock and Roll”

Buddy Holly “Rave On”

Arlo Guthrie “Alice’s Restaurant Massacree”

Jules Nolan, PhD is a psychologist, speaker, and author. She is the president of the Minnesota School Psychology Association and chairwoman for the Human Diversity Committee for the International School Psychology Association. 

Her research, which has been conducted and published internationally, focuses on behavior, achievement, and wellbeing for school-aged children. She consults with parents and educators on how to manage family life and classrooms to help all children thrive.  

We talked to Jules to get her thoughts into how she assists families with the unfamiliar experience of being together constantly. Jules delivered insightful comments, terrific research references, and relevant tips on what real families can do at this time.  

If you’re a parent, you’ll benefit from her real-world directives; and if you’re a teacher, you’re likely to pick up some tips that could make your own virtual work a little less stressful. 

© 2020 Behavioral Grooves

Connect with Kurt and Tim: 

Kurt Nelson, PhD: @WhatMotivates  e-mail: kurt@lanterngroup.com 

Tim Houlihan: @THoulihan  e-mail: tim@behavioralchemy.com 

Lantern Group: http://lanterngroup.com/

BehaviorAlchemy: https://www.behavioralchemy.com/

Behavioral Grooves: https://behavioralgrooves.com/

Weekly Grooves: https://weeklygrooves.podbean.com/

Common Biases & Heuristics: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XHpBr0VFcaT8wIUpr-9zMIb79dFMgOVFRxIZRybiftI/edit#

Patreon Site for Behavioral Grooves: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

General Coronavirus Info: 

Daily Newsletter Summarizing data from Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security: http://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/newsroom/newsletters/e-newsletter-sign-up.html

CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/index.html

Great videos on the science behind this by Dr. Peter Attia – this is the first in a series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNVhLyAlfA4

What is herd immunity?: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/615375/what-is-herd-immunity-and-can-it-stop-the-coronavirus/

A list curated by Liam.Delaney@UCD.ie 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11GLhX7hLf64Bxkdpv5hvYHqOjS1imlcMQFjJBJ-9oUM/edit

Coronavirus & Behavioral Science: 

Selected Links: The Behavioral Sice of Coronavirus: https://behavioralscientist.org/selected-links-the-behavioral-science-of-the-coronavirus-covid-19/

Why no one is reading your coronavirus email: https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/13/opinions/coronavirus-emails-effective-messaging-rogers/index.html

Handwashing can stop a virus, so why don’t we do it?: https://behavioralscientist.org/handwashing-can-stop-a-virus-so-why-dont-we-do-it-coronavirus-covid-19/

The behavioral science of handwashing: https://think.ing.com/articles/the-behavioural-science-of-hand-washing/ 

Ideas 42: The Behavioral Side of COVID-19 here: https://ideas42.org/covid19/ 

Greater Good: https://twitter.com/GreaterGoodSC

How We Can Cope During This Crisis: 

Tip Sheet from HUMU: https://humu.com/remote-nudges/

Resources for learning at home: https://fordhaminstitute.org/national/commentary/resources-learning-home-during-covid-19-school-closures?utm_source=join1440&utm_medium=email&utm_placement=etcetera

General Behavioral Science Links: 

Common Biases and Heuristics: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XHpBr0VFcaT8wIUpr-9zMIb79dFMgOVFRxIZRybiftI/edit#

Jonathan Haidt – 5 Moral Foundations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_foundations_theory

Annie Duke’s “How To Decide”: https://www.amazon.com/How-Decide-Simple-Making-Choices/dp/0593084608

“16 Ways To Promote Hand Washing With Behavioral Science” article by Aline Holzwarth: https://www.forbes.com/sites/alineholzwarth/2020/03/25/handwashing-with-behavioral-science/#261b4b9f768d

Aline Holzwarth’s Playlist on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/0H5fsQRrqslGdBhhx8d4Aw?si=0jra0rU1Qu2vQNtqjbRvZA

Deontological and Consequential Moralities: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ethics-deontological/#DeoTheKan

Difference between descriptive and injunctive norms: https://psychology.stackexchange.com/questions/6193/whats-the-difference-between-injunctive-norms-and-descriptive-norms

Emotion Research from FinalMile: http://finalmile.in/research/

Pandemic Playbook from FinalMile: https://www.playbookforpandemic.com/

There are actually 5 drivers of resilience; optimism, self compassion, cognitive agility, self efficacy and emotional regulation. We dive deep into each of these components and how they play a part in being resilient, with our guest Gabriella Rosen Kellerman MD.

Gabriella is a medical doctor and behavioral science researcher with training in psychiatry and fMRI research. She currently works as Chief Product Officer at BetterUp – a company focused on employee wellbeing. But today’s episode is dedicated to talking about her latest venture - co-writing a new book with none other than the “the father of positive psychology” Martin SeligmanPhD. 

Their book, Tomorrowmind: Thriving at Work with Resilience, Creativity, and Connection―Now and in an Uncertain Future is a hopeful look at how to flourish in an uncertain world. By capitalizing on a Tomorrowmind, we can utilize the universal psychological skills for thriving in an uncertain future: resilience and cognitive agility; mattering and purpose; rapid rapport for social support; prospection; and creativity and innovation (PRISM).

Join our insightful and thoughtful conversation with Gabriella to learn how we can adopt a tomorrowmind. And then stick around for our Grooving Session where Tim discusses the part of the interview that sent chills up his spine, and Kurt gets philosophical about what it means to be optimistic.

(3:24) Welcome and speed round questions.

(5:58) What is a Tomorrowmind?

(7:26) Why are creativity and prospection superpowers?

(10:05) The phases of prospective thinking.

(13:11) Why the right answer can be to ask a different question.

(15:45) What is positivity resonance and why does it matter?

(21:32) What are the consequences of time famine on connection?

(23:17) A story of resilience - Aggie Dunn of Heinz.

(26:55) What exactly does it mean to be resilient?

(29:31) How does self compassion play a part in resilience?

(31:53) The 5 building blocks of resilience.

(34:40) Writing a book with Martin Seligman.

(36:56) What music does Gabriella listen to at home?

(39:40) Grooving Session with Tim and Kurt on Tomorrowmind.

Tomorrowmind: Thriving at Work with Resilience, Creativity, and Connection―Now and in an Uncertain Future: https://amzn.to/3jnu9Mt 

Episode 31, Leaving the Matrix: Annie Duke and Insights into how you can improve your thinking! https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/leaving-the-matrix-annie-duke-and-insights-into-how-you-can-improve-your-thinking/ 

Episode 225, Behind NOISE and Beyond The Book: Linnea Gandhi Shares her New Course on Noise: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/behind-noise-linnea-gandhi/ 

Episode 283, Is The Anus Really The Key To All Intelligent Life? | Henry Gee: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/anus-the-key-to-intelligent-life/ 

Growth After Trauma by Richard G. Tedeschi: https://hbr.org/2020/07/growth-after-trauma 

Episode 214, Observing the Non-Obvious: How to Spot Trends Around You with Rohit Bhargava: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/the-non-obvious-rohit-bhargava/ 

Nickel creek “Reasons Why”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lyZQB1H_Zw 

Bach “Piano Concerto in D Minor”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_yGiFHbQR0 

Pharrell Williams “Happy”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbZSe6N_BXs 

Double the Episodes, Double the Insights! This week, Kurt and Tim are back at it, diving deeper into the world of habits, rituals, and routines. In this special double episode, they take us on a journey through the fascinating neuroscience of habit formation, unpacking how the basal ganglia in our brains can shape our behaviors—for better or worse (cue ominous music…).

The discussion moves beyond the basics, examining how our habitual actions can both enhance and sometimes limit our ability to fully experience life’s spontaneous pleasures. Kurt and Tim explore the delicate balance between the comfort of routine and the thrill of novelty, offering fresh perspectives on how to be more intentional about the habits we cultivate.

But it’s not all theory—this is Behavioral Grooves, after all! The hosts dish out practical strategies for breaking bad habits, like adding friction to disrupt automatic behaviors and swapping out old routines for new, more desirable ones. They also remind us that the road to healthy habits is paved with patience, self-compassion, and a steady focus on personal growth.

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

[0:00] How we form good and bad habits

[5:09] Do habits and routines impact life's novelty?

[11:04] Breaking bad habits and creating new ones

[16:58] Habits, routines, and rituals for personal growth

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

Habits: Why We do What We Do

James Clear: Habit Tracker

Brain/Shift Journal

Habits vs Routines

[NOTE: This episode is republished from #92 in October 2019.]

Goals are often misunderstood. Goals are much more than just objectives that are handed down to subordinates. Rather, goals are self-determined in the best cases, and at the very least, are set collaboratively to get the most out of them.

We discuss Goal Setting Theory (GST), results from research that Tim conducted, and we address the three key elements that must be included to maximize the effect of the goals: 1. The goals must be perceived as achievable. Without perceived achievability, the goal is not accepted and, therefore, not a goal. 2. There must be some involvement with those who are executing the goals. If the goal is handed down from on high without meaningful participation from the person who’s going to act on it, it’s not a goal. 3. There must be a positive relationship between the goal and the reward (including a perceived assessment of risk). As the risk of achievability increases, so must the perceived value of the reward.

This short grooving session also delves into some myths and how to deal with them. Ultimately, we want listeners to come away with a clear understanding of the powerful results than can be obtained with practical and effective use of self-selected goals. 

Zig Ziglar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zig_Ziglar

Goal-Setting Theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goal_setting

Edward Locke: https://peakon.com/us/blog/future-work/edwin-locke-goal-setting-theory/

Gary Latham:  http://www.rotman.utoronto.ca/FacultyAndResearch/Faculty/FacultyBios/Latham

Howard Klein: https://fisher.osu.edu/people/klein.12

Ran Kivetz: https://www8.gsb.columbia.edu/cbs-directory/detail/rk566

George Loewenstein: https://www.cmu.edu/dietrich/sds/people/faculty/george-loewenstein.html

Saurabh Bhargava: https://www.cmu.edu/dietrich/sds/people/faculty/saurabh-bhargava.html

Raghuram Bommaraju: https://www.isb.edu/faculty-research/faculty/directory/bommaraju-raghuram

[NOTE: Republished in its entirety from original episode #104 on December 15, 2019.]

Eugen Dimant, PhD is a Postdoctoral Researcher in the Master of Behavioral and Decision Sciences Department and a Senior Research Fellow at the Identity and Conflict Lab, Political Science Department – both at the University of Pennsylvania.

His research is rooted in economics and sits at the crossroads of experimental behavioral economics, behavioral ethics, crime, and corruption, with much of his recent work focusing on the ways “bad apples” (people will malintent) can be thwarted. This is also manifest in his research on behavioral contagion of pro- and anti-social behavior among individuals and groups. Because we met up with him presenting a paper at NoBeC, a social norms conference, we also discussed the role of social norms in pro- and anti-social behaviors.

We are inspired by Eugen’s work with social nudges and what can be done to minimize the impact of people who are out to corrupt systems and communities. And, we had a great time talking with this incredibly passionate researcher about his wide variety of interests.

We are grateful to Eugen for reaching out to us as we were planning our 100th Episode celebration in Philadelphia. He invited us to the University of Pennsylvania’s NoBeC Conference – the Norms and Behavioral Change Conference – that was happening the same days that we were recording our 100th Episode. Eugen, along with his colleague Chris Nave, PhD, helped us arrange conversations with many researchers and speakers at the conference and we are forever grateful.

Finally, we invite you to keep listening after our discussion with Eugen to hear Kurt and Tim’s Grooving Session and then the Bonus Track where we recap the key insights from the episode.

© 2020 Behavioral Grooves

LINKS:

Eugen Dimant, PhD: https://www.sas.upenn.edu/lps/graduate/mbds/faculty/eugen-dimant

NoBeC (Norms and Behavior Change Conference): https://web.sas.upenn.edu/nobec/

Cristina Bicchieri, PhD: https://upenn.academia.edu/CristinaBicchieri

Gary Bolton, PhD: https://personal.utdallas.edu/~gxb122130/

Nudge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nudge_theory

Social Norms: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/social-norms/

Injunctive and Descriptive Norms: https://study.com/academy/lesson/injunctive-and-descriptive-group-norms-definitions-differences-examples.html

Pluralistic Ignorance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralistic_ignorance

Peer Effects: https://www.encyclopedia.com/social-sciences/applied-and-social-sciences-magazines/peer-effects

Coleman’s Boat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGaz0xKG060

Chris Nave, PhD: https://www.sas.upenn.edu/lps/graduate/mbds/contact/christopher-nave

Bobo Doll Effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobo_doll_experiment

Robert Cialdini, PhD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Cialdini

Kiki and Bouba: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouba/kiki_effect

Pollstar: https://www.pollstar.com/

Drake: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_(musician)

Bushido: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido_(rapper)

U2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U2

Ed Sheeran: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Sheeran

Eagles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagles_(band)

Rolling Stones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rolling_Stones

Fleetwood Mac: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleetwood_Mac

Interested in a secret, underused marketing trick?  Use rhyme in your design! You may easily recall examples like “Bounty: the quicker picker upper” or “Duracell: no battery is stronger, longer”. By including rhyming words in your marketing, your content is actually more memorable and more believable. This is just one of the 25 behavioral science tips that our expert guest, Nancy Harhut outlines in her comprehensive new book, “Using Behavioral Science in Marketing”. 

Nancy Harhutt is Co-Founder and Chief Creative Officer at HBT Marketing, a consultancy that specializes in applying human behavior techniques to marketing. Her new book Using Behavioral Science in Marketing: Drive Customer Action and Loyalty by Prompting Instinctive Responses is an easy-to-use guide on how to apply behavioral insights.

“Behavioral science is tailor made for marketing. At the end of the day, marketers are trying to convince people to do something, we're trying to influence behavior.”

While Nancy’s book is written for those in the marketing field, it is applicable to anyone trying to negotiate, influence or strategize with others. One of the things that makes the book such a helpful guide is Nancy’s use of industry stories to illustrate the effectiveness of her applied behavioral science techniques, and she shares some of these with us in our discussion.

Kurt and Tim talk with Nancy about the weightiness of temporal landmarks, such as birthdays and fresh starts; why rhyming is an underused secret in marketing; and the reason why the reciprocity principle can be so effective with clients.

Whether your job title is in marketing or you frequently find yourself trying to influence others behavior, you will gain some useful insight from Nancy’s interview. If you are a regular listener of Behavioral Grooves, please consider becoming a supporter too, through the Behavioral Grooves Pateron page.

(3:24) Welcome and speed round questions.

(6:11) How behavioral science can be incredibly useful in marketing.

(9:04) How Nancy first used the autonomy bias in a marketing campaign.

(13:43) How do you measure marketing results?

(17:28) What are the differences between labeling and framing?

(24:14) The secret of rhyming in marketing.

(30:29) How birthdays can impact our behavior. 

(36:00) Is marketing missing any tricks?

(43:29) How the default settings on Spotify changed.

(49:05) What music would Nancy take to a desert island?

(51:32) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim.

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

Nancy Harhut’s book: “Using Behavioral Science in Marketing: Drive Customer Action and Loyalty by Prompting Instinctive Responses”: https://amzn.to/41CAC72 

Nancy Harhut: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nancyharhut 

Stephen Sondheim: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Sondheim 

Frank Lesser: https://www.franklesser.com/  

Stephen Schwartz: https://stephenschwartz.com/ 

Episode 351, How One Small Word Can Transform Our Motivation, Success And Relationships with Jonah Berger: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/words-can-transform-jonah-berger/ 

Ogilvy: https://www.ogilvy.com/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves 

West Side Story “Maria”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39WPioTx1zQ  

The Beatles “Help”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q_ZzBGPdqE 

Wicked “Defying Gravity”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEq3xM-i0Ng 

Shankar Vedantam is the host of the wildly popular podcast, Hidden Brain and esteemed author of the book Useful Delusions: The Power and Paradox of the Self-Deceiving Brain. We initially interviewed Shankar in mid 2021 but want to highlight this discussion for you again as it is one we still discuss in more recent episodes.

Before reading Shankar’s book and interviewing him for this podcast we were, as Shankar describes himself, card-carrying rationalists. We were firmly in the camp of believing rational, scientific findings and believing that lies and deception are harmful to ourselves and to our communities. However, Shankar walks us through a compelling argument, that paradoxically, self-deception actually plays a pivotal role in our happiness and well-being.

In our discussion with Shankar we cover:

• (6:38) Speed round questions.
• (11:04) The difference between self delusions being useful and being harmful.
• (16:23) How nations are a delusional construct.
• (23:00) Awareness of self-delusions and how daily gratitudes can shift our perspective of the world. 
• (25:56) Shankar’s personal story of delusional thinking. 
• (29:58) The role emotions play in our mood and delusions.
• (35:23) How avoidance of delusional thinking is a sign of privilege.
• (37:30) Why our perceptions play an important role in understanding delusions.
• (44:36) Shankar’s unique approach to conspiracy theories.
• (52:28) What music Shankar has been listening to during COVID.
• (52:15) Grooving Session and Bonus Track with Kurt and Tim.

We really hope you find Shankar’s unique insight on how delusions are useful as compelling as we did. If you’re a regular Behavioral Grooves listener, please consider supporting us through Patreon. Thank you! 

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

• Useful Delusions: The Power and Paradox of the Self-Deceiving Brain https://amzn.to/2PUkzlv 

• The Hidden Brain: How Our Unconscious Minds Elect Presidents, Control Markets, Wage Wars and Save Our Lives https://amzn.to/3e1qgWY

Noise: A Flaw in Human Judgment by Kahneman, Sibony and Sunstein, 2021 https://amzn.to/3heyr5r 

Richard Dawkins https://richarddawkins.net/ 

Mahabharata https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata 

Lake Wobegon Effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Wobegon 

The Myth of the “Relationship Spark” with Logan Ury (featuring a guest appearance by Christina Gravert, PhD): https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/the-myth-of-the-relationship-spark-with-logan-ury-featuring-a-guest-appearance-by-christina-gravert-phd/

Robert Cialdini, PhD: Littering, Egoism and Aretha Franklin: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/robert-cialdini-phd-littering-egoism-and-aretha-franklin/ 

Self Control, Belonging, and Why Your Most Dedicated Employees Are the Ones To Watch Out For with Roy Baumeister: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/self-control-belonging-and-why-your-most-dedicated-employees-are-the-ones-to-watch-out-for-with-roy-baumeister/

George Loewenstein: On a Functional Theory of Boredom: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/george-loewenstein-on-a-functional-theory-of-boredom/

Gary Latham, PhD: Goal Setting, Prompts, Priming, and Skepticism: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/gary-latham-phd-goal-setting-prompts-priming-and-skepticism/

John Bargh: Dante, Coffee and the Unconscious Mind: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/john-bargh-dante-coffee-and-the-unconscious-mind/

Linda Thunstrom: Are Thoughts and Prayers Empty Gestures to Suffering Disaster Victims? https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/linda-thunstrom-are-thoughts-and-prayers-empty-gestures-to-suffering-disaster-victims/ 

Kurt and Tim are producing a new podcast called Weekly Grooves, launching January 31, 2020.

Weekly Grooves is the weekly podcast that offers insights into the headlines through a behavioral lens. Kurt and Tim will be applying their more than 40 years of combined experience in behavioral work to give the headlines more relevance and meaning. We are going to put more meat in your sauce!

Check it on Podbean or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. We want YOU to be one of first the Weekly Grooves listeners. And we're giving away a prize to the FIRST person who emails us, tweets us or sends us a message on LinkedIn stating that they listened to Weekly Grooves. 

We hope you enjoy!

On this episode of Behavioral Grooves we chat with the founder of the engaging new app PIQUE. Bec Weeks is a behavioral scientist turned accidental entrepreneur! By joining forces with some of the brightest minds in behavioral science, including partners Sendhil Mullainathan, Eldar Shafir and Mike Norton, they have developed an amazing app that accompanies your favorite books.

Pique takes users' interests in books to a new level with their slogan: Don't just read the book. DO the book. By using insights from psychology research, the app creates three-minute adventures that change how you see yourself and others. Pique helps you DO things. They know that just reading books doesn’t lead to change. Doing leads to change. That’s where the app can help.

Pique has created curious, engaging content from some of the bestselling books from the last year:

• Katy Milkman's new book “How to Change” https://amzn.to/2RSeJCj
• Lidy Klotz “Subtract: The Untapped Science of Less” https://amzn.to/3p6XcT0 
• Annie Duke “How to Decide: Simple Tools for Making Better Choices”  https://amzn.to/3yRPWyO 
• And many more.

You can check out the new app Pique here: https://getpique.app.link/4voB1E9VOgb. But first, listen in to Bec's chat with us.

(2:38) Welcome and speed round

(5:06) What is Pique?

(12:50) Why humor is an important part of the app

(17:03) Why is the app called Pique?

(21:13) How Bec has used analytics and algorithmic techniques 

(23:05) Bec’s journey to becoming an entrepreneur

(26:49) The surprises of being an entrepreneur 

(32:43) How Bec first became interested in behavioral science

(34:37) What music would Bec take to a desert island?

(41:11) Grooving Session 

I you are a regular listener to Behavioral Grooves, we would really appreciate your support by writing us a podcast review or becoming a Behavioral Grooves Patreon Member at https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves. Thank you!

© 2021 Behavioral Grooves

Bec Weeks: https://www.linkedin.com/in/becweeks/  

Pique: https://getpique.app.link/4voB1E9VOgb

Sendhil Mullainathan and Eldar Shafir “Scarcity: Why Having Too Little Means So Much” https://amzn.to/3uzvyz2 

Ashley Whillans “Time Smart: How to Reclaim Your Time and Live a Happier Life” https://amzn.to/3wSy4lD 

Wendy Wood “Good Habits, Bad Habits: The Science of Making Positive Changes That Stick” https://amzn.to/2TzXxSr 

Dolly Chugh “The Person You Mean to Be: How Good People Fight Bias” https://amzn.to/34BinTD 

Katy Milkman “How to Change: The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be” https://amzn.to/2RSeJCj 

Annie Duke “How to Decide: Simple Tools for Making Better Choices”  https://amzn.to/3yRPWyO 

Lidy Klotz “Subtract: The Untapped Science of Less” https://amzn.to/3p6XcT0 

Mike Norton and Elizabeth Dunn “Happy Money: The Science of Happier Spending” https://amzn.to/3c8Mlm1 

Jennifer Aaker and Naomi Bagdonas “Humor, Seriously: Why Humor Is a Secret Weapon in Business and Life (And how anyone can harness it. Even you.)” https://amzn.to/3paWZhB 

Daniel Kahneman “Thinking Fast and Slow” https://amzn.to/3fZDvbA 

Episode 205: The Myth of the “Relationship Spark” with Logan Ury (featuring a guest appearance by Christina Gravert, PhD) https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/the-myth-of-the-relationship-spark-with-logan-ury-featuring-a-guest-appearance-by-christina-gravert-phd/

Episode 220: How Do You Become Influential? Jon Levy Reveals His Surprising Secrets https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-to-be-influential-jon-levy/

Episode 38: Linnea Gandhi: Crushing On Statistics  https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/linnea-gandhi-crushing-on-statistics/

Episode 224: Why Is Noise Worse Than Bias? Olivier Sibony Explains https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/noise-with-olivier-sibony/

Deese–Roediger–McDermott paradigm (DRM): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deese%E2%80%93Roediger%E2%80%93McDermott_paradigm 

Hamilton “Alexander Hamilton” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhinPd5RRJw 

Radiohead “No Surprises” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5CVsCnxyXg 

Taylor Swift “Love Story” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXzVF3XeS8M 

Dua Lipa “We’re Good” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr47YisIsz8 

Wicked “Defying Gravity” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glsmLGpqMzA 

Frozen “The Next Fight Thing” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuC_-7vy_F0 

Moana “You’re Welcome” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79DijItQXMM 

Billie Eilish “Your Power” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzeWc3zh01g 

Tame Impala “Let It Happen” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFptt7Cargc 

Powderfinger “These Days” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XaSm9-r_4U&ab_channel=Powderfinger 

Spiderbait “Black Betty” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU1VfYYKMDk 

The Cat Empire “Brighter Than Gold” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QM_rIaUm7ac 

Ketamine therapy has recently been a hot topic in the mental health industry, but what exactly is ketamine therapy? Who is it for, and what are the benefits/risks associated with it?

Dive into the forefront of mental health innovation with Kurt, Tim, and special guest Dr. Elizabeth Lombardo as they unpack the groundbreaking potential of ketamine therapy as a transformative treatment for depression and anxiety. Dr. Lombardo sheds light on the mechanisms behind ketamine therapy's effectiveness, sharing promising research findings and cautionary notes on its administration under careful medical supervision. Dr. Lombardo goes through the nuances of ketamine therapy, and how to use it as part of a comprehensive mental health strategy rather than a quick-fix solution.

As always, the more you know, the better equipped you are to face life’s challenges. Beyond the cutting-edge realm of ketamine therapy, Kurt, Tim, and Dr. Lombardo look at practical coping strategies and evidence-based practices for enhancing mental well-being. From cognitive behavioral therapy techniques to the healing power of nature and gratitude, they share personal stories and insightful perspectives to empower listeners on their mental health journey. With a compassionate approach and a focus on holistic healing, this episode offers actionable insights and thought-provoking dialogue that promise to inspire and inform. 

Tune in for an engaging exploration of mental health and resilience that challenges conventional wisdom and fosters hope for a brighter future. Join the conversation and discover new ways to nurture your well-being, one step at a time.

Disclaimer: The discussion of ketamine in this episode of Behavioral Grooves is purely exploratory and should not be interpreted as medical advice or encouragement to use ketamine. Any consideration of ketamine therapy should be approached cautiously and only under the supervision of a qualified healthcare professional.

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

[0:00] A quick note from Kurt and Tim on ketamine therapy and depression

[5:38] Introduction and speed round

[7:00] Mental health treatment options and stigma

[12:04] Stress, anxiety, and new frontiers in therapy

[16:32] Mental health signs and seeking help

[21:17] Ketamine therapy for depression and anxiety

[31:21] Combining ketamine therapy with other mental health interventions

[37:05] Educating others on ketamine therapy

[40:17] Desert island music

[46:58] Mental illness, ketamine treatment, and self-care options

[49:28] Grooving session: Mental health treatments, coping strategies, and research

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

Dr. Elizabeth Lombardo

Mindbloom

NIH on Major Depression

Harvard Medical School: When is KT safe for treatment-resistant depression?

CBT

Bruno Mars - Uptown Funk

Maroon 5 - This Love

This episode is a Behavioral Grooves first: we bring you our first ever joint podcast! Mid-way through the episode the tables turn and our guest interviews us! Our guest is the amazing Kelly Leonard, host of the great podcast called “Getting to Yes, And…” presented by Second City Works and WGN in Chicago. This unique conversation with Kelly, Kurt and Tim gives us a glimpse of the people behind the podcasts. It is a light-hearted, raw conversation scattered with some really personal, touching stories about challenges each of them have faced in their lives.

For over 30 years, Kelly has worked at Second City Improv - in all capacities moving up to Executive Vice President.  He’s worked with some of the most unforgettable and influential comedians on the planet, such as Stephen Colbert, Tina Fey, Keegan Michael Key, Seth Meyers and Amy Poehler! His book, "Yes, And," received rave reviews in Vanity Fair and the Washington Post. 

But what we really wanted to talk to Kelly about was his work as executive director of insights and applied improvisation at Second City. He now co-leads a new partnership with Booth School at the University of Chicago that studies behavioral science through the lens of improvisation. Their mission is to use humor and empathy, interactivity and dialogue, to elevate conversations and inspire people to perform better.

Kelly talks to us about what improv actually is. He believes it’s fundamentally different from comedy and says many people tell him that improv training changed their life. He likens improv to “yoga for your social skills”! 

We discuss Kelly’s concept of “Yes, And”. So often as humans, our default setting when asked to be involved with something, is to do nothing or say no. But our regrets are almost always about the things that we didn't do. He describes saying “yes, and'' as a little nudge. And he has some innovative ways of sharing this idea through improv exercises

Kelly has discovered that real value is added to the “Yes, And” approach by adding a final step called “Thank You, Because”. Those are the words that help bridge a gap between us and someone else we fundamentally disagree with. By thanking someone for sharing information, their “fear brain” isn’t triggered, and they feel gratitude. The “Because” part forces us to find something in what they’ve said that is true for both of us. We then have some space to stay in the conversation together. 

Our conversation with Kelly then flips! And for the first time ever on Behavioral Grooves, the interviewers become the interviewees! We delve into the behavioral science work that Tim and Kurt are passionate about; negativity bias and how to overcome it, talking to our emotions and naming our fears, the 4-Drive model of Motivation, as well as how to improve really dull work meetings!

Kurt and Tim tell us the “yes, and” story of how the Behavioral Grooves podcast actually started! And Kelly shares how an office fire was the spark that ignited his podcast journey. In this unique episode you will learn what makes these 3 great podcast hosts really tick and what techniques and exercises they use to stay positive, grateful and what they’ve learnt by saying “yes, and”.

(3:36) Welcome to Kelly and speed round questions

(5:00) What is improv?

(10:32) The concept of “Yes, And”

(17:15) Obstacles as gifts

(20:08) Growth mindset vs. fixed mindset

(21:46) “Wish” - a resilience exercise

(23:36) Kelly talks music

(26:56) Switch! Kelly welcomes Tim and Kurt

(27:09) Negativity Bias 

(29:06) Talk to the emotions

(31:23) How writing connects with your emotions

(36:44) How Kurt started his business 

(37:03) The 4-Drive Model of Motivation 

(39:25) How Behavioral Grooves and Getting To Yes, And podcasts started

(42:18) Meetings suck! How can we improve them?

(44:29) Emotional safety at work

(52:30) Who do Kurt and Tim REALLY want as a guest on their podcast?

(59:42) Kurt and Tim’s Yes, And stories

(1:04:18) Grooving session

Kelly Leonard: https://www.secondcity.com/people/kelly-leonard+ 

Second City: Secondcity.com  

“Getting to Yes, And” Podcast: https://www.secondcityworks.com/podcast

Art In An Instant: The secrets of improvisation https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/lifestyle/science-behind-improv-performance/ 

The Big Short Movie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Short_(film) 

Richard Thaler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Thaler 

The Second Science Project https://www.secondcityworks.com/about/research-insights 

Nicholas Epley “Mindwise: How We Understand What Others Think, Believe, Feel, and Want” https://amzn.to/34M4GRM 

Tim Harford “Messy: The Power of Disorder to Transform Our Lives” https://amzn.to/34JN9dc 

Kurt Nelson PhD, Communicating To Your Team During A Pandemic https://medium.com/@kurtnelson_84317/communicating-to-your-team-during-a-pandemic-insights-and-tips-for-leaders-rooted-in-behavioral-aebd938d0310 

Devon Price PhD “Laziness Does Not Exist” https://amzn.to/3cqZl6Z 

“Getting To Yes, And...podcast with Devon Price PhD” https://www.secondcityworks.com/podcast-posts/guest-dr-devon-price 

Tim Houlihan “The Benefits Of Pre-industrial Revolution Life” https://www.behavioralchemy.com/news-1/2020/5/19/the-benefits-of-pre-industrial-revolution-life 

David Byrne “American Utopia” https://americanutopiabroadway.com/ 

The 4-Drive Model. “Employee Motivation: A Powerful New Model”

https://hbr.org/2008/07/employee-motivation-a-powerful-new-model 

Jane Dutton University of Michigan “Compassion at Work” https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/145016032.pdf 

Liz Fosslien “No Hard Feelings: Emotions at Work and How They Help Us Succeed” https://amzn.to/3v2LhXF 

Episode 120: Covid-19 Crisis “Emotional Impact Of Wfh With Liz Fosslien”  https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/c-19-crisis-emotional-impact-of-wfh-with-liz-fosslien/

Kimberlé Crenshaw “Intersectionality” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality 

Amy Edmondson “Psychological Safety” https://hbr.org/2021/04/what-psychological-safety-looks-like-in-a-hybrid-workplace 

Adam Alter “Irresistible: The Rise of Addictive Technology and the Business of Keeping Us Hooked” https://amzn.to/3iuzAX0 

Episode 204 “How Shellye Archambeau Flies Like an Eagle” https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/shellye-archambeau-like-an-eagle/

Joann Lublin “Work-Life-Sway” https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/mckinsey-on-books/author-talks-joann-lublin-on-lessons-for-working-mothers-their-families-and-their-employers# 

Alan Alda https://aldacenter.org/ 

Daniel Kahneman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Kahneman 

Barry Schwartz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Schwartz_(psychologist) 

David Byrne https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Byrne 

Robert MacFarlane “The Lost Words” https://amzn.to/35dxmnj 

Tina Seelig at Stanford University https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tina_Seelig 

Episode 67 “George Loewenstein: On a Functional Theory of Boredom”  https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/george-loewenstein-on-a-functional-theory-of-boredom/

John Sweeney https://bravenewworkshop.com/author/sweeney/ 

Katy Milkman “How to Change: The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be” https://amzn.to/350WJbK 

Episode 220 “How Do You Become Influential? Jon Levy Reveals His Surprising Secrets” https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-to-be-influential-jon-levy/ 

Django Reinhardt “Three-Fingered Lightning” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQhTpgicdx4 

Keith Jarrett “If I Were A Bell” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr42YR4rHbE 

Taylor Swift “Cardigan” from Folklore album https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-a8s8OLBSE  

Taylor Swift “Willow” from Evermore album  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsEZmictANA 

Lake Street Dive “Obviously” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0XOy0XjKIg 

Switched on Pop Podcast https://switchedonpop.com/ 

Neil Young “Harvest Moon” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2MtEsrcTTs 

David Bowie “Lazarus” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-JqH1M4Ya8 

Anticipation mounts as the countdown begins! Prepare to immerse yourself in the riveting saga of They Thought We Were Ridiculous, set to premiere and stream on your Behavioral Grooves feed come February 26th!

Two great podcasts. Three years of recording and research. Interviews with the Nobel Laureates, esteemed professors, and policymakers at the heart of a movement. It all combines to tell the unlikely story of how a group of tenacious thinkers pushed back against tradition and built ideas with impact.

Across this five-part series, we highlight the remarkable evolution of behavioral economics. From a group of rogue psychologists and economists who were openly ridiculed at conferences to a vital voice in government policy and corporate governance. Behavioral economists shape the way decisions are made. After they entered the fray, economic theory would never be the same.

Join Kurt, Tim, and Andy as we celebrate the culmination of three years of relentless dedication, unveiling a meticulously crafted five-part series that promises to captivate and inspire. Mark your calendars for February 26th, when this transformative saga will unfold in its entirety. Don't forget to subscribe, tune in, and engage with us as we delve into the riveting world of behavioral economics. Together, let's embark on this extraordinary journey!

They Thought We Were Ridiculous Website

LinkedIn: Behavioral Grooves

Instagram: @behavioralgrooves

Facebook: Behavioral Grooves

Twitter: @behavioralgroov

If you’ve ever wondered what puts the “Groove” in Behavioral Grooves, this episode has the answer!

We’re diving headfirst into the mesmerizing world of music with the legendary John Bargh to tackle the ultimate question: If you could sit in on the recording of any album in history, which one would you choose?

From the legendary sessions at Island Records to the eternal brilliance of Led Zeppelin’s Stairway to Heaven, we explore the artistry, spontaneity, and sheer magic behind music’s most iconic moments. Whether you’re a die-hard classic rock fan or just curious about the creative process, this episode will take you straight to the heart of music’s golden age.

©2025 Behavioral Grooves

We Made a Playlist for You!

Check out all the artists we discussed this week, here

Curious about how prioritizing happiness can transform leadership and workplace dynamics? Well, look no further than this week’s discussion with Gonzalo Camiña Ceballos, CEO of BeWay, a Mexico City/Madrid-based company paving the way in bringing the principles of behavioral science to the workplace.  In this conversation, Kurt, Tim, and Gonzalo dive deep into the realms of humanistic management, personal fulfillment, and the concept of “eudaimonic leadership”, and how all these factors can make or break your experience in the workplace. 

Gonzalo emphasizes the importance of prioritizing the happiness and fulfillment of employees to achieve organizational success and challenges conventional leadership norms while advocating for a more holistic approach to employee well-being.  In a post-pandemic world where RTO mandates are on the rise, all of us need to find deeper connections and meaning in our jobs. Throughout the conversation, Gonzalo helps us to see a future where people have passion and purpose in their work and feel a greater sense of community in their daily jobs and beyond. 

Join Kurt, Tim, and Gonzalo as they navigate the intersections of leadership, happiness, and personal fulfillment, offering thought-provoking insights into redefining success and finding your groove in both work and life. Whether you're a leader seeking innovative approaches to organizational management or an individual on a quest for personal growth and self-discovery, this episode offers valuable perspectives and inspiration to guide you on your journey.

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

[4:18] Intro and speed round

[6:55] Behavioral science in corporate work departments

[16:13] Using behavioral science in debt collection

[26:53] Career development

[31:06] Prioritizing employee happiness in business

[35:47] Leadership, employee happiness, and scalability

[41:27] Desert island music choices

[46:08] Finding one's groove in life

[54:17] Grooving session: leadership, management, and behavioral science

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

BeWay - The Behavioral Way

Are Happy Employees More Productive?

Shakira “La Tortura”

Post Malone “Circles”

Shellye Archambeau is the author of “Unapologetically Ambitious: Take Risks, Break Barriers, and Create Success on Your Own Terms.” It’s part memoir, part inspiration, and career guidebook. While Shellye argues it’s for everyone, we reckon it’s really best suited for the most ambitious among us. In the book, Shellye shares how she went from being the only black girl in her high school to being the CEO of a Silicon Valley tech firm, MetricStream. And it’s an amazing tale of an amazing woman.

In our conversation with Shellye, she talked with us about the challenges she faced growing up. But what was more interesting to us was talking with her about the way she makes decisions. She has this ability to see how things fit – or don’t fit – into her personal and business goals. And then she acts on them with amazing conviction. She is one remarkable person.

We talked about how she has a strong inclination to set lofty goals – that we call BHAGS (big, hairy, audacious goals) – that never changes over the course of her career. These BHAGS gave her a North Star to navigate by. But the BRICKS (the steppingstones to needed to achieve long-term goals) she used along her journey were flexible and changed as her situation changed.

This flexibility is something we wanted to call out, because it wasn’t just being flexible that got her where she is today. Her incredible ability to create plans and execute those plans is what really set her apart from her peers. And we can imagine that all of her peers at IBM were talented, skilled, smart, and driven. Just not as much as Shellye.

INTERESTED IN BEING A PART-TIME INTERN FOR BEHAVIORAL GROOVES?

If you’d like to pursue being a part-time intern with Behavioral Grooves, please contact Kurt or Tim directly.

Kurt Nelson, PhD: kurt@lanterngroup.com

Tim Houlihan: tim@behavioralchemy.com

“Transfiguration” by Jonathan Benson is used for the interstitial music in this episode.

© 2021 Behavioral Grooves

Shellye Archambeau on Twitter: @ShelArchambeau

Shellye’s web site: https://shellyearchambeau.com/

“Unapologetically Ambitious”: https://shellyearchambeau.com/books

Carol Dweck – Growth Mindset: https://www.mindsetworks.com/science/

George Bernard Shaw: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Bernard_Shaw

Stephen Curtis, Episode # 148: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/covid-19-crisis-stephen-curtis-on-neuroplasticity-and-creating-the-ideal/

Locke & Latham on Goals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goal_setting

Nicholas Christakis and James Fowler, “The Spread of Obesity in a Large Social Network over 32 Years”: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmsa066082

Steve Miller “Fly Like an Eagle”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a6lAwbE1J4

Spinners “I’ll Be Around”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq5VXTO3HDI

Marvin Gaye “What’s Going On”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPkM8F0sjSw

The O’ Jays, “Love Train”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECZr3-a_rDA

Teddy Pendergrass, “Turn Off the Lights”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK4wofMj5-k

Alfie Pollitt, "Say It (Over and Over)": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTaDr1lq8mY

Earl Klugh, “This Time”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7fF_eRYM5k

Dave Koz, “You Make Me Smile”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cshiIac91U

Brian Culbertson, “Colors of Love”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MM5hSddIcg

Praful, “Don't Fight with Life/Om Namah Shivaya”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8D51CbCMY10

George Benson, “On Broadway”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ef0kThw5VY

Elton John, “Don’t Let The Sun Go Down On Me”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncuiQAfPhTg

Audrey Hepburn, “Moon River”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uirBWk-qd9A

In this grooving episode, Kurt and Tim discuss Temporal Discounting and it’s closely related cousins. Temporal discounting is where we tend to value events in the near term more than similar events that are off in the distance. Another way to say it is that we discount – or reduce – our perceived value of events scheduled far off in the future. (The “timing” element is what gives it the name “temporal.”)

This is a very common bias and is closely related to Hyperbolic Discounting, which is the tendency for people to have a stronger preference for more immediate payoffs relative to later payoffs. (Think of Seinfeld’s Nighttime Guy vs. Morning Guy.) And Temporal Construal, where near-term events are valued in very concrete ways, but distant-term events seem very vague. And, a slightly more distant relative in this family of biases is Preference Reversal. With Preference Reversal, we see how the relative preference for one option over another changes with order or framing, such as when we see it.

All of these biases evolved for good reasons over thousands of years of human development and in much simpler times. But today, our world is very complex. And these biases can get in the way of our best decision making.

NOTE TO LISTENERS: This episode was recorded on March 11, 2020, just two days after the World Health Organization declared coronavirus a pandemic and Kurt and Tim were in the studio together. But it was still days before any cities declared shelter in place and a full two weeks before Minnesota, where Kurt and Tim live, made the declaration. Since then, we’ve been recording remotely.

Kurt Nelson, PhD: @WhatMotivates

Tim Houlihan: @THoulihan

Common Biases and Heuristics: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XHpBr0VFcaT8wIUpr-9zMIb79dFMgOVFRxIZRybiftI/edit#

Gretchen Chapman, PhD: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0272989X9501500408

Seinfeld Night Guy vs. Morning Guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-Cz-LK16g4

Tim Urban, “Wait, but Why?”: https://waitbutwhy.com/2016/03/doing-a-ted-talk-the-full-story.html

Veruca Salt in Willy Wonka “I Want It Now”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pqsy7V0wphI

Christopher Hsee on General Evaluability Theory: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1745691610374586

Bazerman, Max, The Power of Noticing: https://www.amazon.com/Power-Noticing-What-Best-Leaders/dp/1476700303

Harris CJ, Laibson D., “Hyperbolic Discounting and Consumption.” Advances in Economics and Econometrics: Theory and Applications, Volume 1. Eighth World Congress; 2002 p. 258-298: https://scholar.harvard.edu/laibson/publications/hyperbolic-discounting-and-consumption

 Behavioral Economics was using psychology to understand economics, but what did economists and psychologists think about their unexpected marriage? Slowly, this fledgling field weathered a flurry of criticism from both sides as it doggedly held onto data-driven ideas about economic decision-making. This tension epitomized a broader struggle within Behavioral Economics, which aimed to harmonize insights from both disciplines while challenging traditional economic paradigms.

Embark on a journey that wasn't always smooth sailing. Unearth the fundamental clash between economists and psychologists, revealing their contrasting views on empirical evidence and theory. From contentious debates over ownership to deliberations on what to name it, the path to integrating these fields was filled with unforeseen twists, turns, and triumphs.

• Economists push back to new behavioral approaches
• How psychologists fought for a seat at the table
• Where did the name “behavioral economics” come from?
• The benefits we gain from integrating disciplines and perspectives

Have you ever felt stuck between two seemingly opposite choices or found yourself seeing the world in absolutes? This week, we’re joined by Dr. Wendy Smith, author of Both/And Thinking, to uncover how embracing paradoxes can help us tackle life’s toughest problems. Wendy shares how shifting from an “either/or” to a “both/and” mindset can unlock better decision-making, foster creativity, and provide solutions to today’s complex challenges—from personal dilemmas to organizational leadership.

In our Grooving Session, we dive deeper into the concept of “both/and” thinking and explore its applications in leadership, personal decision-making, and workplace dynamics. We examine the evolutionary roots of black-and-white thinking and discuss why embracing nuance is more important than ever in our interconnected world. Whether you’re navigating hybrid work policies, parenting challenges, or major life decisions, this perspective offers a fresh lens to solve problems both big and small.

The easiest choice you’ll make today? Saying yes to this episode! Join us for an insightful conversation with Wendy and find out why even ice cream dilemmas are worth a second thought.

©2024 Behavioral Grooves

[0:00] Introduction - Ice Cream Dilemmas and Both/And Thinking

[6:14] Speed round with Wendy Smith

[14:22] Understanding Paradoxes and Both/And Thinking

[23:19] Practical Applications of Both/And Thinking

[33:25] Challenges and Emotional Complexity

[40:12] Using Both/And Thinking in Leadership and Personal Life

[45:58] Desert Island Music

[47:42] Grooving Session: How to Embrace Both/And Thinking in Your Everyday Life

©2024 Behavioral Grooves

Both/And Thinking: Embracing Creative Tensions to Solve Your Toughest Problems

Wendy Smith, PhD

Thinking, Fast and Slow - Daniel Kahneman

What is Both/And Thinking?

The Clash - Should I Stay or Should I Go 

Wicked - Defying Gravity

[NOTE: You may or may not know that Kurt and Tim host a sibling podcast called Weekly Grooves. We thought this was such an important topic that we wanted to share it with the Behavioral Grooves community.]

We got a call recently from Eugen Dimant, a friend of ours who is an associate professor in behavioral and decision sciences at the University of Pennsylvania, about how the University of Michigan was trying to let students know that they should only gather in groups of 25 of less.

Eugen suggested we tee it up as a topical issue for Weekly Grooves and we readily agreed. It led to a discussion about what colleges are doing to regulate student activites to contain the coronavirus, the punishments involved in breaking those regulations, the environment in which students make deicisons on how to behave, and the importance of proper communication.

Also, in this episode we include some of the conversation we had with Eugen, which is a departure from our standard approach and we hope you enjoy it. Eugen’s insights from a  sociological perspective make for important reminders in an age when when the words we choose to communicate impacts whether get sick or not people.

As always, please let us know what you think and share it with a friend or colleague.

© 2020 Weekly Grooves

Eugen Dimant, PhD: https://www.lps.upenn.edu/degree-programs/mbds/faculty/eugen-dimant 

University of Michigan Tweet: https://twitter.com/UMich/status/1299069416202739712

University of Alabama outbreaks: https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/29/us/university-of-alabama-covid-19-cases-trnd/index.html 

Do you strike up a conversation with a stranger on a plane or while waiting in line? If you don’t already, you will after listening to Nick Epley in this episode. Nick talks through his extensive research about talking to people we encounter and how it actually boosts our wellbeing. 

While many of us prefer engaging in some small talk with strangers, Nick advocates for the benefits of having a deep and meaningful conversation with people. The problem is, how do we actually start such a conversation with the person who just sat down next to us? Fear not, Nick delves into why we’re reluctant and how we can overcome our hesitation.

Nick Epley is the John Templeton Keller Professor of Behavior Science and Director of the Center for Decision Research at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business. He studies social cognition — how thinking people think about other thinking people — to understand why smart people so routinely misunderstand each other. Recently Nick has written the book “Mindwise: Why We Misunderstand What Others Think, Believe, Feel, and Want” and he talks in his interview about what he's working on next.

As always, hosts Kurt and Tim end the show with a light-hearted Grooving Session to summarize what we have learnt from our guest. I’m sure you will agree that Nick’s interview leaves us with lots of helpful insights. But if there is just one thing you take away from this episode, great listeners, is never hesitant to seize the opportunity to pay a compliment.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

(3:40) Welcome and speed round questions.

(4:57) Why it’s better to have a deep and meaningful conversation with a stranger?

(7:18) Why are we reluctant to talk to strangers about something meaningful?

(13:46) Why did Nick start studying undersociality? 

(21:06) What happens when strangers talk on a train?

(29:33) How do you start a conversation with a stranger?

(33:20) The benefits of a compliment.

(39:21) Nick’s work in the future.

(43:35) The mind-blowing way to get someone else’s perspective?

(47:49) What music influences Nick.

(51:24) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim discussing what we learned from Nick Epley.

Nicholas Epley: www.nicholasepley.com

“Mindwise: Why We Misunderstand What Others Think, Believe, Feel, and Want” by Nick Epley: https://amzn.to/3IodtLV

Gary Becker: https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/economic-sciences/1992/becker/facts/ 

Liz Dunn at University of British Columbia: https://psych.ubc.ca/profile/elizabeth-dunn/ 

Episode 220: How Do You Become Influential? Jon Levy Reveals His Surprising Secrets: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-to-be-influential-jon-levy/

Behavioral Grooves Patreon page: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Metallica “Master of Puppets”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnKhsTXoKCI 

David Tolk, piano player “Amazing Grace”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X24B_2TjPQ 

“All Creatures Great and Small” music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hLXxQPkAGk 

Talk about a unique career path! From performing at Woodstock before Jimi Hendrix, with his band Sha Na Na, to now being a Forensic Linguist, testifying for infamous court cases, one theme runs throughout the life journey of our guest Rob Leonard; his love of language. 

Rob Leonard started his unique career as a band member of Sha Na Na, one of only 32 bands who played at Woodstock in August of 1969. He played at the request of Jimi Hendrix and was the last band to go on to perform before Jimi went on to play one of his most memorable performances; the unforgettable rendition of the Star Spangled Banner.

Sha Na Na shot to fame when Rob was studying for his undergraduate degree at Columbia University. Since his commitment to the band’s rehearsals and performances was so time consuming, Rob chose to study the only language that had classes available on Saturdays: East African Bantu (also known as Swahili). So after graduating, and leaving the band, he spent 7 years in East Africa carrying out socio linguistic fieldwork, and subsequently earning his PhD.

Rob now practices as a forensic linguistics expert, analyzing the use of spoken and written language in a legal arena.  He worked on the murder case of JonBenét Ramsey by analyzing the ransom note and testifying that it had not been written by the man who falsely confessed to her murder. Not only has he worked to solve cases in the US with the FBI, but he's also worked with Canada, and UK, law enforcement agencies as well. And he's worked on big corporate cases between Microsoft and Apple by carefully analyzing the way emails were written.

© 2021 Behavioral Grooves

(24:41) we can sort of use another metaphor, lift up the cover of the language and see what's going on underneath. And we can infer that there are certain patterns happening here that we then test for and we find 

(26:09) “Most of the information that is transmitted in a conversation does not come from the words that a speaker says, they come from the mind of the listener.” 

(4:48) Speed Round

(6:08) Can you determine someone’s innocence from the way they speak?

(8:40) What is forensic linguistics?

(11:57) Non-random distribution of language

(13:21) Rob’s journey into learning East African Bantu

(19:18) How Rob found the career path into linguistics

(25:55) Theory of Mind

(34:12) Rob’s stories from playing at Woodstock

(47:40) Grooving Session about Rob

Robert Leonard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Leonard 

“Sha Na Na and the Woodstock Generation,” by George Leonard '67 and Robert Leonard '70

http://www.georgeleonard.com/sha-na-na-and-the-woodstock-generation.htm 

JonBenét Ramsey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_JonBen%C3%A9t_Ramsey 

Tammy A. Gales PhD https://www.hofstra.edu/faculty/fac_profiles.cfm?id=3587&t=/Academics/Colleges/HCLAS/CLL/ 

Andy Warhol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Warhol 

Episode 220: How Do You Become Influential? Jon Levy Reveals His Surprising Secrets https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-to-be-influential-jon-levy/

Sha Na Na “Teen Angel” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqN9n2FbuJE

Jimi Hendrix “The Star Spangled Banner” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKAwPA14Ni4 

Janis Joplin “Ball & Chain” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h66qXAK-q3o 

Sha Na Na “Tears on my Pillow” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3He_gyNG6A&ab_channel=Foofsmom 

The Mamas and The Papas “California Dreamin’” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-aK6JnyFmk&vl=en 

The notion of merging psychology with economics initially faced staunch skepticism, with errors perceived as random rather than systematic. However, everything changed when psychologists Daniel Kahneman and Amos Tversky joined forces, armed with groundbreaking ideas about human decision-making. Their meticulous research not only introduced a fresh perspective on understanding people’s choices but also ignited the flames of Behavioral Economics. Through collaboration with other influential figures in the field, including Richard Thaler, their work spearheaded a transformative movement that challenged conventional economic assumptions, propelled novel ideas forward, and seamlessly integrated psychological theories into economic theory and practice.

• Are errors random or systematic? The challenges of merging psychology with economics
• Why we rely on quick mental shortcuts in decision-making
• How a single question can short-circuit the rational mind
• The importance of marrying psychology and economics for understanding our behaviors

Are the new COVID-19 vaccines are safe? It will probably take time to know for sure; however, this week Kurt and Tim discuss the behavioral aspects of the transition. Kurt was engaged by an article in Bloomberg called “Vaccines May Have Social Side Effects,” by Tyler Cowen, a professor of economics at George Mason University.

Professor Cowen raised the idea that the mere presence of vaccines may give people an unwarranted boost in confidence and lead to less mask-wearing and social distancing.

In this 8-and-a-half-minute grooving session, we discuss some of the behavioral aspects of the transition.

© 2020 Behavioral Grooves

“Vaccines May Have social Side Effects”: https://www.startribune.com/vaccines-may-have-social-side-effects/573096121/?refresh=true

How a Covid-19 Vaccine Could End Up Helping the Virus Spread: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-11/if-we-re-not-careful-a-vaccine-might-help-covid-19-spread

Chiara Varazzani, PhD is the Principal Advisor at the Behavioral Insights Unit in the Victorian Government's Department of Premier and Cabinet in Australia. Chiara is Italian born, French-educated, and employed in Australia, adding her to the list of Italian-born behavioral scientists we’ve had on our show (Cristina Bicchieri, Francesco Gina, and Silvia Saccardo, in case you’re counting).

She blew us away with her passion for behavioral science as well as her comments about the way our brain calculates the ratio between effort and reward with dopamine and noradrenaline. It was a reminder that there is hard science behind why we do what we do.  She also wondered why so much of behavioral science interventions rely on what she very passionately described as old school methods. Interesting question!

If you’re a marketer or a health care provider, Chiara has insights that prove beneficial to your work. And if you have any ideas on how to use smell in the world of sales incentives, we’d love to talk with you about that!

We also had a great exchange about music. Chiara has very wide musical interests and her playlists are bound to invite you into some wonderful, and possibly unfamiliar, artists.

Please enjoy our conversation with Chiara Varazzani.

© 2020 Behavioral Grooves

Kurt Nelson, PhD: @WhatMotivates

Tim Houlihan: @THoulihan

Chiara Varazzani, PhD: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvarazzani/

Antonio Damasio, PhD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Damasio

FMRI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_magnetic_resonance_imaging

Electroencephalogram (EEG): https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/eeg/about/pac-20393875

Portable EEG: https://imotions.com/blog/eeg-headset-prices/

Common biases and heuristics: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XHpBr0VFcaT8wIUpr-9zMIb79dFMgOVFRxIZRybiftI/edit#

Sleep, Rotten Eggs and Smoking Study: https://www.jneurosci.org/content/34/46/15382

BETA (Behavioral Economics Team of Australia): https://behaviouraleconomics.pmc.gov.au/

BETA Impact Report: https://behaviouraleconomics.pmc.gov.au/sites/default/files/resources/pmc-beta-impact-report-web.pdf

Dopamine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine

Noradrenaline: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/noradrenalin

Neuromarketing World Forum: https://www.neuromarketingworldforum.com/

Michael Hallsworth & Music: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/michael-hallsworth-from-mindspace-to-east/

Cristina Bicchieri, PhD: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/cristina-bicchieri-social-norms-are-bundles-of-expectations/

Francesca Gino, PhD: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/francesca-gino-curiosity-and-rebellion-makes-your-career/

Silvia Saccardo, PhD: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/silvia-saccardo-ethics-of-decisions-and-italian-rap/

Jana Gallus, PhD: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/jana-gallus-the-role-of-precision-in-incentives/

James Heyman, PhD: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/behavioral-grooves-1-james-heyman-phd/

Leonard Cohen “Suzanne” with Judy Collins: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toEk9DaLrgs

Jacques Brel “Marieke”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfGDpzL9H7Y

Fabrizio de André “Creuza de Ma”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78YNQ7zzxvQ

Antonio Vivaldi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Vivaldi

Bombino: https://open.spotify.com/album/4gcKhaSReWjY8R5q2jMdLz?highlight=spotify:track:6p3PMnO8z1I8fPqx2j1Mkj

Trent Reznor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trent_Reznor

Natural Born Killers Soundtrack: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_Born_Killers_(soundtrack)

Judy Collins: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judy_Collins

Stephen Stills “Suite: Judy Blue Eyes”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVUwrifwKrI

Tim Houlihan “Those Who Discovered the World”: https://open.spotify.com/track/1UMdtl78cXrrrRZRQ0zRSv

Tim Houlihan “Aljezur Sunrise”: https://open.spotify.com/track/1UMdtl78cXrrrRZRQ0zRSv

Rodd Wagner is a Forbes columnist and bestselling author of books on leadership, employee engagement and collaboration. Rodd’s books have been published in 10 languages and his articles have appeared in The Wall Street Journal, Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, USA Today, ABC News, as well as Globe and Mail in Canada. One of his books was even parodied in Dilbert.

In our conversation, we discussed how humans perceive risk, regulation (by the self and by the government), and cumulative probabilities. We’ve known Rodd for many years and always find his perspectives fresh and ripe with curiosity. We were glad to talk with him and hope you find it as insightful as we did.

Also, we were struck by a couple of snappy phrases from Rodd that we hope become more common in our lexicon as our language evolves with the crisis: “The virus doesn’t care,” is a phrase Rodd shared that simply caught us off guard with brutal truth; and, “We are usually killed by things we didn’t see coming.” Gnaw on that for a bit as you’re washing your hands. 

© 2020 Behavioral Grooves

Connect with Kurt and Tim:

Kurt Nelson, PhD: @WhatMotivates  e-mail: kurt@lanterngroup.com

Tim Houlihan: @THoulihan  e-mail: tim@behavioralchemy.com

Lantern Group: http://lanterngroup.com/

BehaviorAlchemy: https://www.behavioralchemy.com/

Behavioral Grooves: https://behavioralgrooves.com/

Weekly Grooves: https://weeklygrooves.podbean.com/

Common Biases & Heuristics: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XHpBr0VFcaT8wIUpr-9zMIb79dFMgOVFRxIZRybiftI/edit#

General Coronavirus Info:

Daily Newsletter Summarizing data from Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security: http://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/newsroom/newsletters/e-newsletter-sign-up.html

CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/index.html

Great videos on the science behind this by Dr. Peter Attia – this is the first in a series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNVhLyAlfA4

What is herd immunity? https://www.technologyreview.com/s/615375/what-is-herd-immunity-and-can-it-stop-the-coronavirus/

A list curated by Liam.Delaney@UCD.ie

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11GLhX7hLf64Bxkdpv5hvYHqOjS1imlcMQFjJBJ-9oUM/edit

Coronavirus & Behavioral Science:

Selected Links: The Behavioral Sice of Coronavirus: https://behavioralscientist.org/selected-links-the-behavioral-science-of-the-coronavirus-covid-19/

Why no one is reading your coronavirus email: https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/13/opinions/coronavirus-emails-effective-messaging-rogers/index.html

Handwashing can stop a virus, so why don’t we do it?: https://behavioralscientist.org/handwashing-can-stop-a-virus-so-why-dont-we-do-it-coronavirus-covid-19/

The behavioral science of handwashing: https://think.ing.com/articles/the-behavioural-science-of-hand-washing/

Ideas 42:  The Behavioral Side of COVID-19 here:  https://ideas42.org/covid19/

Greater Good: https://twitter.com/GreaterGoodSC

How we can cope or be better during this crisis:

Tip Sheet from HUMU: https://humu.com/remote-nudges/

Resources for learning at home: https://fordhaminstitute.org/national/commentary/resources-learning-home-during-covid-19-school-closures?utm_source=join1440&utm_medium=email&utm_placement=etcetera

General Behavioral Science and other info related or talked about in the series:

Common Biases and Heuristics: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XHpBr0VFcaT8wIUpr-9zMIb79dFMgOVFRxIZRybiftI/edit#

Jonathan Haidt – 5 Moral Foundations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_foundations_theory

Jürgen Klopp: https://ftw.usatoday.com/2020/03/jurgen-klopp-goes-off-on-reporter-after-being-asked-about-coronavirus-again

UBI (Universal Basic Income): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income

7-Minute Workout: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECxYJcnvyMw

4 Drive Model: https://www.leadersbeacon.com/how-great-leaders-use-the-4-drive-model-to-impact-employee-motivation/

Universal Basic Income: https://behavioralscientist.org/checkscheckschecks-why-we-need-a-universal-basic-income-now-coronavirus/

Why we are not going back to normal: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/615370/coronavirus-pandemic-social-distancing-18-months/

Annie Duke’s “How To Decide”: https://www.amazon.com/How-Decide-Simple-Making-Choices/dp/0593084608

Over the last 50 years, little has changed for the pharmaceutical management of mental illness. This is troublesome, but not unsolvable, according to The New York Times writer and author, Daniel Bergner. We talked with him about his most recent book, The Mind and the Moon: My Brother’s Story, the Science of Our Brains, and the Search for Our Psyches, and some of the key themes he discovered along his personal journey with a mentally challenged family member and other people he came to know well.

We discussed the shortcomings of our current mental healthcare systems and processes, the benefits of non-traditional mental health therapies, the ancient myth about the Turkey Prince, and how we might be able to get immediate relief by reframing the conversation about pain management and pain suppression.

The book features stories about his brother and a few other people that are told in remarkable detail over a long period of time. The gripping and beautifully-told narrative will open your eyes to some of the challenges that mental illness brings to life. Our conversation with Daniel explored these stories and areas of mental health that are too often overlooked - and we are grateful we get to share that conversation with you.

If you are a regular listener to Behavioral Grooves, please consider contributing to our work through Patreon. Writing a podcast review or giving us a quick rating also helps others find our show. Weird, isn’t it? But, yeah, it’s true. We would appreciate any help you can offer.

Most importantly, if you or someone you know needs help, please seek help. The Mental Health Guide is a global resource with phone numbers and websites in dozens of countries: https://www.helpguide.org/find-help.htm.

(2:45) Welcome and speed round.

(5:23) What the book The Mind and The Moon is about.

(7:18) Progress in mental health treatment and with society in the last 50 years.

(10:00) The 3 stories that illustrate mental health in the book.

(15:50) The effect of psilocybin.

(18:15) What a turkey under a table can teach us about managing mental illness.

(21:09) What are the next steps in mental health?

(22:51) Daniel’s personal journey.

(26:23) Writing the book in the context of the Trump election and George Floyd.

(29:15) This is not an anti-pharmaceutical book.

(35:18) Was it deliberate that music was a big part of the book? 

(41:42) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim discussing mental health.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

Mental Health Guide with global phone numbers and websites: https://www.helpguide.org/find-help.htm 

Daniel Bergner’s book, “The Mind and The Moon: My Brother's Story, the Science of Our Brains, and the Search for Our Psyches”: https://amzn.to/3aka5pU 

Psilocybin:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybin

Steven Hyman: shorturl.at/lty19 

Episode 274, Paul Bloom, “Why Finding Pleasure in Life is a Painful Journey”: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/pleasure-is-a-painful-journey/ 

Episode 255, Daniel Almeida “The 5 Healthy Brain Habits Of A Neuroscientist”: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/healthy-brain-habits-neuroscience/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon page: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Stanley Brothers “The Darkest Hour Is Just Before Dawn”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmiYKpVNOVg 

Marty Robbins “Red River Valley”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezJkRDQmL2Y 

Simon & Garfunkel “The Sound of Silence”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAEppFUWLfc 

Wolfgang Mozart “Symphony No. 36 in C Major, K. 425 ‘Linz’ - I. Adagio - Allegro spiritoso”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMloPIwd_FM 

Antonio Vivaldi “Four Seasons - Spring”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LAPFM3dgag 

NOISE is set to be the next behavioral science bestseller. Daniel Kahneman, Cass Sunstein and Olivier Sibony describe noise as the unwanted variabilities in our judgments. In our exclusive interview with co-author Olivier Sibony (https://oliviersibony.com/about/) we delve into the fundamentals of noise. What different types of noise are there? Where do we find noise? Why does bias get more attention than noise? And finally, Olivier’s favorite topic; how we can mitigate noise by using decision hygiene and actively open minded thinking.

Olivier Sibony is a professor, writer and advisor specializing in the quality of strategic thinking and the design of decision processes. Olivier teaches Strategy, Decision Making and Problem Solving at HEC Paris. He is also an Associate Fellow of Saïd Business School in Oxford University. Olivier’s research centers on improving the quality of decision making by reducing the impact of behavioral biases. He is the author of numerous articles in academic and popular publications, including Before You Make That Big Decision, co-authored with Nobel Prize winner Daniel Kahneman.

Our interview with Olivier is, as I’m sure you will agree. absolutely mesmerizing. Learning about the extent of noise in our lives from Olivier and from the new book, is truly enlightening. As their cleverly crafted catchphrase says "wherever there is judgment, there is noise, and more of it than you think."

Thankfully, the brilliant team of authors have included lots of ways to combat the noise around us. And we know that our discussion with Olivier is just the first of many that we will have around this groundbreaking topic.

Behavioral Grooves strives to bring you insight and research from world-leading experts in behavioral science, like Olivier. And we do this without the use of paid advertising. If you would like to support our continued ad-free work, please consider becoming a Behavioral Grooves patreon by visiting https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves thank you.

© 2021 Behavioral Grooves

Topics We Discuss

• (4:38) Welcome to Olivier Sibony and speed round questions
• (7:51) The difference between bias and noise
• (11:32) Why has bias received more attention than noise?
• (14:15) Where noise can be found?
• (22:32) What is Decision Hygiene?
• (26:35) How to implement mitigation techniques against noise?
• (29:32) Actively Open Minded Thinking and what it means for leadership and education
• (38:45) What are the different types of noise?
• (44:18) The role of moral philosophical foundations and noise
• (49:28) Music 
• (54:06) Grooving Session and Bonus Track

Olivier Sibony’s Books

Noise: A Flaw in Human Judgment by Kahneman, Sibony and Sunstein, 2021 https://amzn.to/3heyr5r

You're About to Make a Terrible Mistake: How Biases Distort Decision-Making and What You Can Do to Fight Them https://amzn.to/3u8LBnp 

Links

Olivier Sibony https://oliviersibony.com/about/ 

Languedoc wine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languedoc-Roussillon_wine 

Rhones Valley wine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rh%C3%B4ne_wine 

Dr Itiel Dror https://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucjtidr/ 

Apgar Checklist https://www.acog.org/clinical/clinical-guidance/committee-opinion/articles/2015/10/the-apgar-score 

John Maynard Keynes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Maynard_Keynes 

Max Bazerman “Better, Not Perfect: A Realist's Guide to Maximum Sustainable Goodness” https://amzn.to/3f4vvqm 

Bentham's Utilitarianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism 

Kant's Deontological Approach https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ethics-deontological/ 

Noise: How to Overcome the High, Hidden Cost of Inconsistent Decision Making https://hbr.org/2016/10/noise 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Musical Links 

Yo-Yo Ma cellist “Bach Cello Suite No. 1 in G Major” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1prweT95Mo0 

Billy Evans “My Foolish Heart” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2LFVWBmoiw 

Keith Garrett “I Grew Up Today” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PerFVC6KbU 

Oscar Peterson “C Jam Blues” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTJhHn-TuDY 

More Great Episodes Of Behavioral Grooves 

Episode 220: How Do You Become Influential? Jon Levy Reveals His Surprising Secrets   https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-to-be-influential-jon-levy/

Episode 211: A Thousand Thanks: A Lifetime of Experiments and Gratitude with AJ Jacobs  https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/a-thousand-thanks-with-aj-jacobs/

Episode 204: How Shellye Archambeau Flies Like an Eagle  https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/shellye-archambeau-like-an-eagle/

Episode 176: Annie Duke on How to Decide https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/annie-duke-on-how-to-decide/

Episode 147: Gary Latham, PhD: Goal Setting, Prompts, Priming, and Skepticism  https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/gary-latham-phd-goal-setting-prompts-priming-and-skepticism/

Episode 38: Linnea Gandhi: Crushing On Statistics https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/linnea-gandhi-crushing-on-statistics/

We all face uncertainty at some point in our lives. But do we embrace it or resist it? Our thoughts about uncertainty and ambiguity shape the actions we take when we are faced with change. If we reframe how we view uncertainty, we can rewrite the story we tell ourselves.

“The way we describe something to ourselves and others, shapes how we think, decide and act.”

Our guests on this episode are the most delightful husband and wife team, Nathan Furr and Susannah Harmon Furr who have written a fantastic book together, “The Upside of Uncertainty: A Guide to Finding Possibility in the Unknown”.

Ironically recording this episode has been plagued with uncertainty. Our first attempt, last summer, was bugged with audio issues, and since then we have faced a number of technical glitches. When we finally got a chance to sit down and re-record an interview with them recently, it unfortunately fell at a time that our own Tim Houlihan was unable to join the conversation due to illness. So Kurt Nelson embraced the uncertainty and flew solo on this interview!

We learn from Nathan and Susannah about the types of uncertainty and some of the tools that they have devised to overcome those periods of our lives when everything seems unsure. We know you’ll take away a lot from this discussion, and we encourage you to also read their book which is packed full of useful advice.

One thing we are certain about at Behavioral Grooves is how much we appreciate and rely on the support of you, our wonderful listeners. If you feel able, please join our growing community of Patreon supporters.

(2:25) Welcome and speed round questions.

(8:20) How achievers step into uncertainty.

(11:05) Planned uncertainty vs. unplanned uncertainty. 

(14:30) Uncertainty and possibility are two sides of the same coin.

(21:32) Some of the tools to overcome uncertainty.

(27:54) The possibility quotient. 

(33:22) How do uncertainty balancers counteract the unknown? 

(36:09) Why we should take more risks with options that inspire us.

(39:32) Breaking down big uncertainties into small steps.

(44:31) Don’t wait until all the pieces are in place.

(47:36) The sustaining tools to help when you need a boost.

(50:38) How emotional hygiene can help you face the ups and downs of uncertainty.

(52:43) The UP School.

(55:13) The musical experience that changed Nathan’s life.

(1:00:54) Grooving Session with Kurt on grabbling with uncertainty.

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

Nathan and Susannah’s book “The Upside of Uncertainty: A Guide to Finding Possibility in the Unknown”: https://amzn.to/3ZiuXBv 

UP: https://www.theupsideofuncertainty.com/ 

UP School: https://www.theupsideofuncertainty.com/learn 

Buckminster Fuller: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckminster_Fuller 

Reconstructed Living Labs (RLabs): https://rlabs.org/ 

Guy Winch, emotional hygiene: https://www.ted.com/talks/guy_winch_why_we_all_need_to_practice_emotional_first_aid?language=en 

Vincenzo Lamagna’s adaption of Giselle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27lgUp_FboE&ab_channel=VariousArtists-Topic 

When making big decisions, people often go with what feels right - who we marry, where we live, what career we pursue. We base these decisions on our gut instinct. But what if our gut is biased, misinformed or quite simply wrong? 

Economist, former Google scientist, New York Times bestselling author and friend of the show Seth Stephens-Davidowitz has mined through thousands of data sets to prove that we are, in fact, frequently making ill-informed decisions when we only trust our gut. And we are delighted to be talking to Seth again about his fantastic new book, Don't Trust Your Gut: Using Data to Get What You Really Want in Life.

From the data, Seth has uncovered what activities make us most happy, which isn’t always the most comfortable activity.

“If you're on the fence, between walking with friends, and lying on the couch watching Netflix…go on that walk…it's been proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt that that's the more likely path to happiness.” 

But surprisingly there is one aspect of life that data cannot give us answers on. Listen to Seth’s entertaining interview to find out when exactly we should and shouldn’t trust our gut.

At Behavioral Grooves, the data tells us that our listeners are loving our recent episodes! Thank you to everyone who has recently left us a podcast review. We read each and every one of them! Some of our dedicated Behavioral Grooves, donate to our work through Patreon page. Please consider supporting our work in this way, many thanks.

(2:58) Welcome and speed round questions.

(10:04) Should we really not trust our gut?

(16:09) Relationships are as unpredictable as the weather forecast.

(20:16) Big data doesn’t apply to everything.

(22:51) Is skepticism underrated? 

(24:51) What is mappiness?

(27:48) Does supporting a winning team make you more happy?

(29:28) The #1 happy activity.

(32:29) Mistaking a comfortable activity for an enjoyable activity.

(37:28) What is dataism?

(44:20) The data behind hustling. 

(46:54) Would Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen make it today?

(52:37) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim on trusting your gut.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

Seth’s book: “Don't Trust Your Gut: Using Data to Get What You Really Want in Life”: https://amzn.to/3yICKwT 

Episode 246, Seth Stephens-Davidowitz: Are You More Honest with Google or Your Friends? https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/are-you-more-honest-with-google/ 

Alexander Todorov, “Face Value: The Irresistible Influence of First Impressions”: https://amzn.to/3Pi59kp 

Episode 211, AJ Jacobs: A Thousand Thanks: A Lifetime of Experiments and Gratitude: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/a-thousand-thanks-with-aj-jacobs/ 

Seth’s previous book: “Everybody Lies: Big Data, New Data, and What the Internet Can Tell Us About Who We Really Are”: https://amzn.to/32ULlgD

Episode 222, Shankar Vedantam “How Delusions Can Actually Be Useful: Shankar Vedantam Reveals How“: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/shankar-vedantam-useful-delusions/ 

Mappiness: http://www.mappiness.org.uk/ 

Krishnamurti T, Loewenstein G. The partner-specific sexual liking and sexual wanting scale: psychometric properties. Arch Sex Behav. 2012 Apr;41(2): https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21720917/ 

Episode 287, Nick Epley, Why Talking To Strangers Is Actually Good For Your Wellbeing: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/talking-to-strangers/ 

Episode 274: Paul Bloom, Why Finding Pleasure in Life is a Painful Journey: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/pleasure-is-a-painful-journey/ 

Episode 205: Logan Ury, The Myth of the “Relationship Spark”: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/relationship-spark-logan-ury/ 

1000 True Fans, Kevin Kelly: https://kk.org/thetechnium/1000-true-fans/ 

Rick Springfield “Jesse’s Girl”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYkbTyHXwbs 

Bruce Springsteen “Glory Days’: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WccS8iFXgFI 

Bob Dylan “The Times Are A-Changin’”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90WD_ats6eE 23refvc 

Leonard Cohen “Hallelujah”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrLk4vdY28Q 

Metallica “Nothing Else Matters”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAGnKpE4NCI 

Luther Ingram "(If Loving You Is Wrong) I Don't Want to Be Right": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvJj7SN9EWI 

How often do you question the 'facts' you encounter in everyday life?

This week, Alex Edmans, author of May Contain Lies, joins Kurt and Tim to question the world around us. They explore the significance of critical thinking and cognitive diversity, highlighting the value of diverse perspectives and evidence-based reasoning. They discuss the differences between facts and statements, the dangers of misleading inferences from evidence, and the impact of perception on communication.

Creating an environment where individuals can express their viewpoints freely is crucial. This includes fostering a culture where a devil’s advocate can provide critical feedback and considering alternative explanations to avoid confirmation bias in our everyday lives.

For a bit of fun (and for Tim too!), Alex explains his research on how music preferences can predict stock market trends and the challenge of separating emotional effects from fundamental factors. During their Grooving Session, Kurt and Tim encourage listeners to apply a scientific mindset when evaluating information and to promote cognitive diversity within their workspaces. Tune in to enhance your critical thinking skills, appreciate the nuances in decision-making, and learn how to foster a culture of scientific inquiry in your workplace and beyond.

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

[5:07] Intro and speed round

[9:30] The importance of critical thinking and avoiding confirmation bias

[16:37] Misinformation and how it’s presented

[27:56] How to evaluate scientific claims by checking sources

[33:08] The importance of cognitive diversity

[42:07] Using music to predict stock market trends

[49:26] Grooving Session: Overcoming biases to make informed decisions

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

Links

Alex Edmans ‘May Contain Lies: How Stories, Statistics, and Studies Exploit Our Biases - And What We Can Do About It’

Wason Selection Task

Sports Sentiment and Stock Returns

How Cognitive Biases Influence the Way You Think and Act

Earth, Wind, and Fire “September”

Fleetwood Mac “The Chain”

How can behavioral science aid the mammoth task of vaccination the world against Covid? What common barriers cause vaccine hesitancy in populations around the globe? And how can behavioral design overcome them? 

Born out of frustration, while trying to eliminate Polio from Pakistan, the global behavioral design agency Common Thread (www.gocommonthread.com) was born. They use findings from psychology, anthropology, economics and sociology, to identify and analyze behavioral insights. Bringing a people-centered approach to the world's toughest public health problems.

We are delighted to be joined on this podcast episode with the co-founder, director and lead storyteller of Common Thread, Michael Coleman. He talks with us about his new publication, “The Little Jab Book: 18 Behavioral Science Strategies for Increasing Vaccination Uptake” (www.vax-up.org) and the global projects that he is currently collaborating on.

(6:24) Speed round questions.

(8:55) Applying behavioral science to global health concerns.

(9:47) How Common Thread was started and why it focuses on putting people at the center of public health problems.

(11:30) The complexities Mike faced with the Polio Eradication Plan in Pakistan.

(14:02) What is the mission of Common Thread?

(15:52) What tools does Common Thread use to change behavior?

(18:59) How can removing friction from decisions make a big difference in people’s responses?

(23:00) About The Little Jab Book: 18 Behavioral Science Strategies for Increasing Vaccination Uptake.

(25:33) Who The Little Jab Book is intended for?

(27:01) What are the barriers to vaccinating the world against Covid?

(31:50) How vaccine hesitant conversations can impact public health responses.

(34:28) Work with UNICEF to create individual country responses to vaccination barriers.

(39:16) What music would Mike take to a desert island? 

(41:43) How Common Thread uses music to foster an inclusive work culture.

(43:35) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim summarizing the application of Mike’s insights.

Behavioral Grooves has a Patreon page to help fund our work, please consider donating a small amount to our podcast at www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves. We also love reading your reviews, tweets and comments about the podcast; these help others find out about us too. But most of all, thanks for listening!

© 2021 Behavioral Grooves

Common Thread: www.gocommonthread.com/ 

Michael Coleman: www.gocommonthread.com/blog/person/michael-coleman/ 

Common Thread newsletter “The Stitch”: www.gocommonthread.com/the-stitch/ 

The Little Jab Book: 18 Behavioral Science Strategies for Increasing Vaccination Uptake: www.vax-up.org

Behavioral Insights lab set up with Gavi for immunization oriented to the global south: “From Idea to Immunization”: www.gocommonthread.com/work/global-gavi-bi/ 

Barry’s tea: www.barrystea.ie/

Sherine Guirguis: www.gocommonthread.com/about/ 

Harvard School of Public Health: www.hsph.harvard.edu/social-and-behavioral-sciences/ 

UNICEF: www.unicef.org/ 

The Global Vaccine Allowance: www.gavi.org

The Gates Foundation: www.gatesfoundation.org

Vax-Up: www.vax-up.org

PATH: www.path.org

BUSARA: www.busaracenter.org/ 

The New York Times Global Vaccination Tracker: https://nyti.ms/2WNx1Xt 

Rob Burnet, Well Told Story: www.africa-asa.com/rob-burnet/ 

Episode 202: How Chaning Jang Works Around Not Being WEIRD: www.behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-chaning-jang-works-around-not-being-weird/

Episode 223: How Behavioral Science Can Impact Nonprofits: The Inspiring Story at Save The Children: www.behavioralgrooves.com/episode/behavioral-science-and-nonprofits/

 Nina Simone “Stars” (Montreux Festival in 1976): https://bit.ly/38Dv7Lz 

Jeff Buckley “Grace”: https://bit.ly/3BG9OW4 

Jeff Buckley (Live in Frankfurt, 1995): https://bit.ly/3h0XMi7 

The Tragically Hip “Ahead By a Century”: https://bit.ly/38G2kGm 

Common Thread Spotify Playlist: https://spoti.fi/3yHvsYf 

Tsegue-Maryam Guebrou, a 93 year old Ethiopian jazz pianist: https://spoti.fi/3zPhlBG

Scaling behavioral science initiatives from a small research study to a large population is a topic we have enjoyed delving into this year with John A. List in Episode 296. And we are delighted to be joined on this episode by Neela Saldanha PhD who focuses her work on developing the science around scaling policy interventions.  

Neela is the Executive Director of the Yale Research Initiative on Innovation and Scale (Y-RISE) which focuses on researching complexities of scaling policy interventions and bringing together global experts to overcome the challenges of scaling. Her work history touches academia, non-profits and the private sector, as well as spanning the globe, including India and the US.

We are grateful to Neela for giving us time to discuss her work on this episode. Our ongoing production of the Behavioral Grooves Podcast is gratefully aided by our Patreon members. If you have enjoyed listening to Behavioral Grooves in 2022, please consider donating to our work through the Behavioral Grooves Patreon page. We also love reading reviews of the podcast, which in turn, helps others find our content.

(3:37) Welcome and speed round questions.

(8:01) Neela’s work at Y-RISE.

(12:12) The challenges of scaling research findings.

(20:16) Applying behavioral science tools in the field of behavioral science.

(23:40) The bottlenecks to applying behavioral science in organizations.

(27:51) What are the WICKED problems that need to be solved?

(38:00) Music Neela would take to a desert island.

(40:33) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim discussing Neela’s interview.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

Neela Saldanha: https://neelasaldanha.com/ 

Yale Research Initiative on Innovation and Scale (Y-RISE) at Yale University: https://yrise.yale.edu/ 

“Behavioral Science in the Wild (Behaviorally Informed Organizations)”: https://amzn.to/3xxAD04

David Yokum PhD, Episode 282: Why Applying Behavioral Science to Public Policy Delivers Better Policy: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/behavioral-science-in-public-policy/ 

John A. List, Episode 296. Fail to Scale: Why Good Research Doesn’t Always Make Great Policy | John A. List:  https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/fail-to-scale-john-a-list/ 

John A. List’s book, “The Voltage Effect: How to Make Good Ideas Great and Great Ideas Scale”: https://amzn.to/3a0GOjh

Episode 289, Why Not All Nudges Work ”In The Wild” | Nina Mazar PhD & Dilip Soman PhD: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/why-not-all-nudges-work-in-the-wild-nina-mazar-dilip-soman/ 

Diversifi: https://www.diversifiglobal.com/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Beethoveen’s 9th Symphony: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkQapdgAa7o&ab_channel=OsloPhilharmonic 

Beethoven’s 5th Symphony oboe solo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8axcI1K1I1U 

R.D. Burdman Bollywood hits: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QE2NsbDM0M 

Racism is solvable, but that doesn’t mean we will solve it. To close the gap between the probable and possible, we need to have meaningful conversations.

“Conversation is one of the most powerful ways to build knowledge, awareness, and empathy and ultimately, impact change.”

In his award winning book, “The Conversation: How Seeking and Speaking the Truth About Racism Can Radically Transform Individuals and Organizations”, Dr Robert Livingston PhD provides a compass and a roadmap for individuals and for organizational leaders to solve racism. As a leading Harvard social psychologist, he expertly combines his research and narrative for an audience who is eager to be part of the solution.

Robert talks with us about the lightbulb moment he realized storytelling was a powerful way to engage an audience. By building relationships and using narratives, you can change people’s behavior in a way that facts and graphs simply don’t.

Our conversation with Robert gives us the tools to firstly define racism and recognize its existence. We learn why motivated reasoning tries to protect us from the threat of addressing our own racism. But if we approach the painful conversations with a growth mindset, we can allow ourselves the grace to learn.

© 2022 Behavioral Grooves

(3:13) Welcome and speed round questions.

(4:23) Is racism a solvable problem?

(6:19) Why conversation is so crucial to overcoming racism.

(13:18) How The Press Model can help solve racism.

(19:47) Why are people in denial about racism?

(25:12) How to challenge the “I’m not a racist” relative?

(28:48) How to have a conversation about racism, rather than a debate. 

(36:20) Why do we confuse equity and equality?

(45:03) People are not as concerned about fairness as they are about winning.

(47:52) What music would Robert take to a desert island?

Robert Livingston's book “The Conversation: How Seeking and Speaking the Truth About Racism Can Radically Transform Individuals and Organizations”: https://amzn.to/3DdQZOc

Episode 232, Katy Milkman: How to Make Healthy Habits that Actually Last: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/katy-milkman-habits-that-last/ 

“Whites See Racism as a Zero-Sum Game That They Are Now Losing” Michael Norton and Samuel Sommers (2011): https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1745691611406922 

Carol Dweck “Mindset: The New Psychology of Success”: https://amzn.to/3SBhamm 

Amy Edmondson: https://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/profile.aspx?facId=6451 

Episode 178, Kwame Christian: On Compassionate Curiosity, Social Justice Conversations, and Cinnamon Toast Crunch: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/kwame-christian-on-compassionate-curiosity-social-justice-conversations-and-cinnamon-toast-crunch/ 

Episode 230, How Good People Fight Bias with Dolly Chugh: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-good-people-fight-bias/ 

Stevie Wonder “Songs In The Key of Life”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiG9eiwUpHo 

Miles Davis “So What”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqNTltOGh5c

“Brands really matter, when and only when they matter to consumers. And this is fundamentally a question of human connection.” ~ Matt Johnson

To get under the skin of how branding works, what makes it effective and how to build a successful brand, we talk with Matt Johnson PhD, who is an expert on the human side of business. Matt is a speaker, researcher, and writer specializing in the application of psychology and neuroscience to marketing. We discuss everything from the difference of brand strategy, brand personality and brand meaning, all the way to how brands can get involved in activism.

“What determines if you're a great brand is if your values and your attributes and your characteristics resonate with your target market.” ~ Matt Johnson

Our conversation doesn’t just appeal to marketers, however. In our usual lighthearted style, Kurt and Tim touch on Matt’s love of Arsenal, his appreciation for pumpkin spice lattes, and the music that helps him come up with creative ideas. 

As a former guest on Behavioral Grooves, we are delighted to welcome Matt back to discuss branding and marketing. Matt’s recent book, “Branding that Means Business: How to Build Enduring Bonds between Brands, Consumers and Markets” which is co-written with Tessa Misiaszek, provides a really informative overview of the application of marketing in organizations. Listen in to this episode to get a flavor for the expertise that Matt brings to his field.

Behavioral Grooves relies on the support of listeners. If you’d like to be part of the community of supporters of the show, please visit our Patreon page. 

(5:27) Welcome and speed round questions.

(11:48) Why branding is at a crossroads now.

(15:30) What is the difference between brand strategy, brand personality and brand meaning?

(18:45) Why are some brands better at connecting with people?

(25:39) The intersection of neuroscience and marketing.

(27:47) Why Matt thinks we should steer away from the word consumer.

(30:20) How the communication landscape has changed branding.

(34:21) Social identity in branding.

(37:45) How brands can play a part in activism without becoming tribal.

(45:51) Can brands break through the noise?

(48:26) What music would Matt take to a desert island?

(53:10) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim discussing branding.

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

Behavioral Grooves on LinkedIn: Behavioral Grooves

Behavioral Grooves on Twitter: @behavioralgroov

Behavioral Grooves on YouTube: Behavioral Grooves

Behavioral Grooves on Instagram: @behavioralgrooves

Behavioral Grooves on Facebook: Behavioral Grooves

Send Behavioral Grooves an Email: info@behavioralgrooves.com 

Support Behavioral Grooves on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Matt’s book, co-written with Tessa Misiaszek, “Branding that Means Business: How to Build Enduring Bonds between Brands, Consumers and Markets”: https://amzn.to/3Jk2zdL 

Matt’s blog “Neuroscience Of”: https://www.neuroscienceof.com/branding-blog

Episode 177, Matt Johnson & Prince Ghuman on Mid-Liminal Marketing and the Ethics of Applied Neuroscience: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/matt-johnson-prince-ghuman-on-mid-liminal-marketing-and-the-ethics-of-applied-neuroscience/ 

Episode 235, Make Choice Rewarding: Behavioral Insights in Marketing with Matthew Willcox: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/marketing-matthew-willcox/ 

The Beatles “Don’t Let Me Down”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCtzkaL2t_Y 

Pierre Boulez “Livres Pour Cordes”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omeOdqO05W4&ab_channel=EuroArtsChannel 

Continuing their pursuit of knowledge, Kurt and Tim explore the impactful books that have shaped their perspectives in 2023. In this episode, they unwrap the highlights of their literary journey, offering listeners a condensed version of why each book made a lasting impression and what readers can expect to gain from delving into these insightful pages.

Discovering one's groove is a nuanced journey, often fueled by new ideas, fresh perspectives, and a revisit to timeless concepts presented in innovative ways. In this annual wrap-up, Kurt and Tim dive into a diverse array of books that have enriched their intellectual tapestry, underscoring the influential role of literature in deepening their understanding of human behavior.

Covering a spectrum of topics, from uncertainty and effective communication to parenting and attention span, this year's Top 10 (or is it 11?) books offer a wide-ranging exploration. If you're searching for insights on a specific topic, chances are it's in one of these books!

Join in to uncover the standout Behavioral Science books of the year and gain insights that can enhance your understanding of human behavior. As always, thank you for being a part of the Behavioral Grooves community this year, and we look forward to hearing your thoughts on the Top 10!

Links

1. The Upside of Uncertainty: A Guide to Finding Possibility in the Unknown by Nathan and Susanna Furr
2. Writing for Busy Readers by Todd Rogers
3. Think Faster, Talk Smarter by Matt Abrahams 
4. Work, Parent, Thrive by Yael Schonbrun
5. Magic Words by Jonah Berger
6. Humanizing Rules by Christian Hunt
7. Anatomy of a Breakthrough: How to Get Unstuck When It Matters Most by Adam Alter
8. Nobody's Fool: Why We Get Taken In, and What We Can Do About It by Dan Simons and Chris Chabris
9. Your Future Self by Hal Hershfield
10. Attention Span: A Groundbreaking Way to Restore Balance, Happiness, and Productivity by Gloria Mark
11. The Perfection Trap: Embracing the Power of Good Enough by Thomas Curran

Would you help change a stranger’s tire? How about if they offered you $20? Or, what if instead of money, they offered you some candy? 

We often think these types of exchanges are financial in nature - but this study explored how there is actually a different type of exchange going on here - a social exchange. When we help a friend move some furniture, invite friends over for dinner, help a stranger out who is in need - these are social exchanges in a social market, one that is separate from the financial market. And what’s even more interesting is that if you bring money into the social exchange, it falls apart.

James Heyman and Dan Ariely explored this phenomena in their landmark study called, “Effort for Payment: A Tale of Two Markets” and is the basis for Kurt and Tim taking a deep look in this Groove Track. 

Listen to find out the backstory to the study and the implications from the findings. You can also watch a special video recording of this Groove Track with Kurt and Tim on the Behavioral Grooves YouTube Channel.

Heyman, J., & Ariely, D. (2004). Effort for Payment: A Tale of Two Markets. Psychological Science: https://doi.org/10.1111/j.0956-7976.2004.00757.x 

Behavioral Grooves on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkmH8St_nsA&ab_channel=BehavioralGrooves 

What a year for books 2021 has been! It seems like authors, editors and publishers have all been working overtime this year to bring us some incredible new content. Books that have challenged our beliefs, calmed our anxieties and transformed our habits. 

To help us with the mammoth job of summarizing the best behavioral science books from 2021, we are joined by the incredible Louise Ward, who has read over 100 books this year! Louise is the co-host of the Behavioural Science Club, a LinkedIn group established in June 2020 now with over 5,000 members. If you haven’t yet joined the club, you definitely should. Today. Alongside co-host Prakash Sharma, the Behavioural Science Club interviews top authors each week about fascinating new insights in human behavior.

In our discussion with Louise, we noticed some trends among our favorite books. One is that we are moving past the presumption that humans are flawed and irrational. Books such as Useful Delusions and Nudge focus instead on the evolutionary usefulness of our biases and heuristics. In addition, we loved that after reading books on heavy topics such as suffering (The Sweet Spot), racial inequalities (The Person You Mean to Be) or conspiracy theories (How to Talk to a Science Denier), we were still left with a feeling of hope and optimism.

And if you’re new to behavioral science and wondering how to get started or underestimating the impact you can make as an individual, there was an empowering theme to this year’s books too. Dive into You Have More Influence Than You Think to recognize how you can make an impact on people, You’re Invited to reflect on the connections you make in your life or Non Obvious Megatrends to start noticing more of the world around you. 

We would LOVE to hear your favorite books of 2021. Did your favorites overlap with ours? Please send us an email at info@behavioralgrooves.com, or connect with us on social media with your top reads of the year.

Twitter: @behavioralgroov

LinkedIn: Behavioral Grooves

Instagram: @behavioralgrooves 

Facebook: Behavioral Grooves

Join over 5000 members in the LinkedIn Group: https://www.linkedin.com/groups/13871707/ 

More group info: https://lnkd.in/grjWMrQ 

Twitter: @BehSciClub 

• Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know, by Adam Grant: https://amzn.to/3pNXdvE
• Brandsplaining: Why Marketing is (Still) Sexist and How to Fix It, by Jane Cunningham and Philippa Roberts: https://amzn.to/33Fltsu
• Think Big: Take Small Steps and Build the Future You Want, by Grace Lordan: https://amzn.to/3mo3JZ6
• What We Owe Each Other: A New Social Contract for a Better Society, by Minouche Shafik: https://amzn.to/3eiJOXj
• Subtract: The Untapped Science of Less, by Leidy Klotz: https://amzn.to/3JaOqwY
• The Sleeping Beauties: And Other Stories of Mystery Illness, Suzanne O’Sullivan: https://amzn.to/3IHnuV5
• Noise: A Flaw In Human Judgement, by Daniel Kahneman, Olivier Sibony and Cass Sunstein: https://amzn.to/3eiHgZf
• This is Your Mind On Plants, by Michael Pollan: https://amzn.to/3Ekqd3p
• Nudge: The Final Edition, by Richard Thaler and Cass Sunstein: https://amzn.to/3edkHFe
• Four Thousand Weeks: Time Management for Mortals, by Oliver Burkeman: https://amzn.to/3qiyFv9

• The Person You Mean to Be: How Good People Fight Bias, by Dolly Chugh: https://amzn.to/3rSsEHQ
• Anxiety at Work: 8 Strategies to Help Teams Build Resilience, Handle Uncertainty, and Get Stuff Done, by Chester Elton And Adrian Gostick: https://amzn.to/3EMgofA
• Useful Delusions: The Power and Paradox of the Self-Deceiving Brain, by Shankar Vedantam and Bill Mesler: https://amzn.to/3rVh8Ma
• The Unconscious: Theory, Research, and Clinical Implications, by Joel Weinberger: https://amzn.to/3H5P5xA 
• How to Not Die Alone: The Surprising Science That Will Help You Find Love, by Logan Ury: https://amzn.to/3GC8VR3
• Non Obvious Megatrends: How to See What Others Miss and Predict the Future, by Rohit Bhargava: https://amzn.to/3phL4jv 

• You Have More Influence Than You Think: How We Underestimate Our Power of Persuasion, and Why It Matters, by Vanessa Bohns: https://amzn.to/3dCEKgb
• You're Invited: The Art and Science of Cultivating Influence, by Jon Levy: https://amzn.to/3ydBtgF
• How To Talk To a Science Denier, by Lee McIntyre: https://amzn.to/3lVT4Vk
•  Subtract: The Untapped Science of Less, by Leidy Klotz: https://amzn.to/3JaOqwY 
• The Sweet Spot: The Pleasures of Suffering and the Search for Meaning, by Paul Bloom: https://amzn.to/3piFKwr 

• Why Zebras Don’t Get Ulcers, by Robert Sapolsky: https://amzn.to/3H5ALp6 (Kurt)
• The Hype Machine: How Social Media Disrupts Our Elections, Our Economy, and Our Health--and How We Must Adapt, by Sinan Aral: https://amzn.to/3EgsSLv (Louise)

 © 2021 Behavioral Grooves

Words matter. Unbelievably, tiny changes to language can have a big effect on behavior. Hear bestselling author, Jonah Berger reveal the magic words that can completely transform how we behave, in this riveting episode.

Almost everything we do involves words. But have you ever stopped to consider how much influence the words you choose can have on the person reading your email, or listening to your presentation? Some words are more impactful than others. In fact, we can captivate, motivate and convince people with our words. But which words are the most powerful? 

Listen in to find out:

• How words can shape our identity.
• Tips on using language to positively affect our relationships.
• How simply changing the words in an email can dramatically alter behavior.

Jonah Berger’s last book, “Magic Words: What To Say To Get Your Way” is a succinct summary of the latest scientific research on words and language. Jonah joins us on Behavioral Grooves, not only to tell us about what to expect in the book, but also to recount the story of how the idea for the book was sparked by a delayed flight.

Jonah is a former guest of Behavioral Grooves Podcast, having previously been on the show to discuss his bestselling book The Catalyst: How to Change Anyone's Mind. He is a professor at The Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania and is known as a world-renowned expert on natural language processing, word of mouth, influence, consumer behavior, and why things catch on. 

Word of mouth is the number one way that new listeners find out about Behavioral Grooves podcast. If you feel wiser having listened to this episode, please share it on social media or email it to your friends and encourage them to become a listener too. Thank you!

(3:27) Welcome and speed round questions.

(5:09) Why asking for advice makes us actually seem smarter.

(7:17) Using abstract vs. concrete language.

(12:42) How Jonah researched the use of language.

(16:49) How can our language affect our relationships.

(19:31) Turning actions into identities.

(22:47) Priming behavior with language.

(25:00) Do the lyrics of songs help explain their success?

(28:27) Grooving Session with Tim and Kurt on why words matter.

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

Jonah Berger: https://jonahberger.com/ 

Jonah’s book, “Magic Words: What To Say To Get Your Way”: https://amzn.to/3Kp9r9T 

Episode 201, The Counterintuitive Persuasion of The Catalyst with Jonah Berger: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/the-catalyst-with-jonah-berger/ 

Episode 147, Gary Latham, PhD: Goal Setting, Prompts, Priming, and Skepticism: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/gary-latham-goal-setting-prompts/ 

Episode 319, John Bargh: Want to Know How Priming Works? It Starts With Your Conscious, Not Your Unconscious: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B_UYYPb-Gk&ab_channel=RUNDMCVEVO 

Leonardelli, Geoffrey & Pickett, Cynthia & Brewer, Marilynn. (2010). Optimal Distinctiveness Theory. Advances in Experimental Social Psychology: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/241065845_Optimal_Distinctiveness_Theory 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Suzanne Vega, DNA “Tom's Diner”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4jtIDaeaWI 

RUN DMC - Walk This Way featuring Aerosmith: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B_UYYPb-Gk&ab_channel=RUNDMCVEVO

Research is showing that there are four broad groups of people who are the most vaccine hesitant:

• African Americans
• Latinos
• Women between the ages of 20 and 36
• Rural Americans and Republicans

Many of us have a family or friend who feels hesitant about the vaccination. In this episode, Kurt and Tim address how you can have a positive conversation with them, using proven behavioral science techniques. 

• Listen with compassion
• Understanding motivations
• Be genuine with curiosity

• Framing what you’re going to share
• Think about their perspective
• Find an authority figure who they respect
• Trumpcine

• Change the social norm
• Being able to take our masks off “Take a shot, take off your mask”
• Personalise the message

Morgan Freeman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_Freeman 

Kwame Christian https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/kwame-christian-on-compassionate-curiosity-social-justice-conversations-and-cinnamon-toast-crunch/ 

Steve Martin & Joe Marks: BG episode

https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/steve-martin-and-joe-marks-the-messenger-is-the-message/ 

Robb Willer, Stanford University https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robb_Willer 

Donald Trump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump 

Ivanka Trump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivanka_Trump 

Ted Cruz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Cruz 

Trumpcine https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2021/04/12/trump-calls-covid-19-vaccine-trumpcine-mocks-fauci-again/ 

Frank Luntz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Luntz 

Robert Cialdini https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/robert-cialdini-phd-littering-egoism-and-aretha-franklin/ 

The Petrified Forrest https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/the-shaping-us/201909/the-petrified-wood-principle 

Katy Milkman https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/katy-milkman-phd-using-behavior-change-for-good/ 

Surfacing norms to increase vaccine acceptance https://psyarxiv.com/srv6t/

Patreon https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves 

© 2021 Behavioral Grooves

Exploring the future of Behavioral Economics, we talked to three young researchers who are pushing the field further. A new generation of researchers is striving to understand decision-making in the developing world, how brains process economic decisions, and how bigger, more transparent scientific methods can shed light on basic principles of choice.

However, the journey toward new discoveries is not without its challenges. Behavioral Economics faces an identity crisis amid shifting perspectives, prompting a reevaluation of its approaches. Discover how this introspection may catalyze a more pragmatic ethos within the field, prioritizing real-world impact over theoretical abstraction. Join us as we navigate this nuanced landscape, engaging with the innovative minds shaping the future of behavioral economics with a blend of boldness, innovation, and pragmatism.

• How behavioral economics is revolutionizing farming in developing nations
• Discover groundbreaking revelations about the decision-making process
• Why there needs to be shift towards transparency in scientific practices to ensure a brighter future
• The new collaboration between Behavioral Economists and tech innovators and what it means for the future

Stephen Wendel, PhD is an applied behavioral scientist who studies how digital products can help people take action more effectively. He currently serves as Head of Behavioral Science at Morningstar, leading a team of behavioral scientists and practitioners who conduct original research on saving and investment behavior.

Steve has authored “Designing for Behavior Change,” “Improving Employee Benefits,” and “Spiritual Design.” He is also a co-founder of the non-profit Action Design Network that focuses on educating the public on how to apply behavioral research to product development with monthly events in fifteen cities.

In our conversation, we talked about epistemic humility, which is a cool concept that was new to both Kurt and Tim. We also discussed a few of our favorite topics including the role of behavioral science in the corporate world, the ethical application of behavioral science, and how important context is to … well, everything.

We hope you enjoy our conversation with Steve and encourage you to take a moment to leave a review or check out our Patreon page at www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves.

© 2020 Behavioral Grooves

Stephen Wendell, PhD: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sawendel/

BehavioralTechnology.co: https://www.behavioraltechnology.co/

Stephen Wendell, PhD, “Designing for Behavior Change”: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B089VDCG8C/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=sawendel-20&camp=1789&creative=9325&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=B089VDCG8C&linkId=9eb146b1f7ac7c968bc2bc2c2bdeb6c1#ace-6308736939

Cass Sunstein: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cass_Sunstein

Wendy Wood, PhD: https://www.marshall.usc.edu/personnel/wendy-wood

Dan Ariely, “Honest Truth About Dishonesty”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Honest_Truth_about_Dishonesty

Irish Bohnet, “What Works”: https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674089037

Shakira: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUT5rEU6pqM

Daddy Yankee: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGIm0-dQd8M

Raggaeton: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJXkYF-Oscg

Christian Contemporary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjzLN8uYCig

Johnny Cash: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5126CibNsk

Merle Haggard “She Still Thinks I Still Care”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dx3rS2N8yE

Caroline Webb, a Senior Advisor at McKinsey, is an executive coach, author, and speaker specializing in insights from behavioral science to improve our lives at work. Her book on that topic, How To Have A Good Day, has been published in 14 languages and in more than 60 countries. One of her past jobs was to contribute to the world economic forecast, and she is fluid in her ability to speak with authority on a wide spectrum of topics. This session was recorded in February 2020 in the early days of the lockdown and we realize Caroline's words of encouragement to identify even the smallest things that we can control stand up well today. 

We found profound value in her reminder that in times of great upheaval, we can still control our kindness, 

She spoke with determination on the importance of intentionality and deliberateness in our daily lives, but she tweaked these ideas with a special twist. Caroline noted that ‘batching’ our lives - the use of compartments and guardrails for work, news, work-outs, socializing...etc. - can reduce cognitive load and increase subjective wellbeing. 

And, as always, we appreciate Caroline’s openness and authenticity in revealing her personal challenges with the lockdown and the uncertainties of the crisis. And with all that serious exchange, we found plenty of times to enjoy a good laugh. 

© 2020 Behavioral Grooves

Connect with Kurt and Tim: 

Kurt Nelson, PhD: @WhatMotivates  e-mail: kurt@lanterngroup.com 

Tim Houlihan: @THoulihan  e-mail: tim@behavioralchemy.com 

Lantern Group: http://lanterngroup.com/

BehaviorAlchemy: https://www.behavioralchemy.com/

Behavioral Grooves: https://behavioralgrooves.com/

Weekly Grooves: https://weeklygrooves.podbean.com/

Common Biases & Heuristics: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XHpBr0VFcaT8wIUpr-9zMIb79dFMgOVFRxIZRybiftI/edit#

Patreon Site for Behavioral Grooves: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

General Coronavirus Info: 

Daily Newsletter Summarizing data from Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security: http://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/newsroom/newsletters/e-newsletter-sign-up.html

CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/index.html

Great videos on the science behind this by Dr. Peter Attia – this is the first in a series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNVhLyAlfA4

What is herd immunity?: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/615375/what-is-herd-immunity-and-can-it-stop-the-coronavirus/

A list curated by Liam.Delaney@UCD.ie 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11GLhX7hLf64Bxkdpv5hvYHqOjS1imlcMQFjJBJ-9oUM/edit

Coronavirus & Behavioral Science: 

Selected Links: The Behavioral Sice of Coronavirus: https://behavioralscientist.org/selected-links-the-behavioral-science-of-the-coronavirus-covid-19/

Why no one is reading your coronavirus email: https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/13/opinions/coronavirus-emails-effective-messaging-rogers/index.html

Handwashing can stop a virus, so why don’t we do it?: https://behavioralscientist.org/handwashing-can-stop-a-virus-so-why-dont-we-do-it-coronavirus-covid-19/

The behavioral science of handwashing: https://think.ing.com/articles/the-behavioural-science-of-hand-washing/ 

Ideas 42: The Behavioral Side of COVID-19 here: https://ideas42.org/covid19/ 

Greater Good: https://twitter.com/GreaterGoodSC

How We Can Cope During This Crisis: 

Tip Sheet from HUMU: https://humu.com/remote-nudges/

Resources for learning at home: https://fordhaminstitute.org/national/commentary/resources-learning-home-during-covid-19-school-closures?utm_source=join1440&utm_medium=email&utm_placement=etcetera

General Behavioral Science Links: 

Common Biases and Heuristics: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XHpBr0VFcaT8wIUpr-9zMIb79dFMgOVFRxIZRybiftI/edit#

Jonathan Haidt – 5 Moral Foundations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_foundations_theory

Annie Duke’s “How To Decide”: https://www.amazon.com/How-Decide-Simple-Making-Choices/dp/0593084608

“16 Ways To Promote Hand Washing With Behavioral Science” article by Aline Holzwarth: https://www.forbes.com/sites/alineholzwarth/2020/03/25/handwashing-with-behavioral-science/#261b4b9f768d

Aline Holzwarth’s Playlist on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/0H5fsQRrqslGdBhhx8d4Aw?si=0jra0rU1Qu2vQNtqjbRvZA

Deontological and Consequential Moralities: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ethics-deontological/#DeoTheKan

Difference between descriptive and injunctive norms: https://psychology.stackexchange.com/questions/6193/whats-the-difference-between-injunctive-norms-and-descriptive-norms

Emotion Research from FinalMile: http://finalmile.in/research/

Pandemic Playbook from FinalMile: https://www.playbookforpandemic.com/

Irrational Labs Bootcamp: https://irrationallabs.com/learn/

“How to Have a Good Day”: https://carolinewebb.co/books/how-to-have-a-good-day/

Amy Bucher, PhD is the Vice President of Behavior Change Design at Mad*Pow and the author of “Engaged” a new book on how to apply behavioral science to the design and development of products. At Mad*Pow, she designs motivating interventions to help people live healthier and happier lives and, in her spare time, knocks 150 books off her reading list every year. (OMG!)

Amy was recently recognized as one of 10 behavioral scientists you should know in Forbes magazine. While we did spend a bit of time on the article and her work at Mad*Pow, most of our conversation focused on the book.

We talked about motivation and the incredible power that idiosyncratic messaging can have on customers when used properly by marketing and sales. We also discussed participatory design, trust, and how important it is for product developers and marketers to demonstrate trust.

She also offered her thoughts on how designers need to do a better job of integrating behavioral science into their products. Some are doing it, but there are lots of opportunities for improvement Amy offered some ideas on this.

Lastly, we want to note that Amy wrote that one of the most important reminders for the corporate world: Almost everything a designer makes has behavior change built into it. The smart designers will be thinking about that as they design their products (or enhancements).

We hope you enjoy this conversation with Amy as much as we did and hope that this week, you find your groove.

© 2020 Behavioral Grooves

Amy Bucher, PhD: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amybucher/

“Engaged”: https://amzn.to/3BkG1mb 

“Super Better” by Jane McGonigal: https://amzn.to/2YwILOY 

“Atomic Habits” by James Clear: https://amzn.to/3ad9Nxn 

Forbes Article: “Top Behavioral Scientists You Should Know”: https://www.forbes.com/sites/alineholzwarth/2020/10/29/10-behavioral-scientists-you-should-know/?sh=72ddbe3c42e0

Pattern Health: https://pattern.health/

Ran Kivetz, PhD “Idiosyncratic Fit”: https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-research/publications/idiosyncratic-fit-heuristic-effort-advantage-determinant-consumer

Peppers & Rogers 1:1 Marketing: https://hbr.org/1999/01/is-your-company-ready-for-one-to-one-marketing

McDonald’s milkshake innovation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Stc0beAxavY

Adam Hansen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adhansen/

Bent Handle Snow Shovel: https://www.acehardware.com/departments/lawn-and-garden/snow-removal-and-equipment/snow-shovels-and-pushers/7200439

R.E.M. “Losing My Religion”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwtdhWltSIg

Michael Stipe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Stipe

Britney Spears: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-u5WLJ9Yk4

Robyn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcNo07Xp8aQ

The Doves “There Goes The Fear”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SneuvKIkM3A

Pulp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuTMWgOduFM

Manchester Orchestra: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ui9umU0C2g

Depeche Mode “Personal Jesus”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1xrNaTO1bI

This week, we dive into a thought-provoking conversation with Bob McKinnon, host of the Attribution podcast and author of America's Dreaming. Bob unpacks the complex factors that determine success and failure, drawing from his own experiences and broader societal influences. He challenges the "fundamental attribution error," where we often credit personal effort over external factors, and how this bias can distort our perceptions of ourselves and others. Through powerful stories, Bob discusses how systemic barriers and limiting beliefs shape life outcomes, emphasizing the need to recognize the roles of luck, privilege, and social connections in our narratives.

Bob, Kurt and Tim explore the ethics of marketing, the overlooked influence of luck in success, and how reframing our stories can foster empathy. With insights into everything from historical injustices to the power of music and storytelling, Bob offers listeners a fresh perspective on the importance of compassionate curiosity in bridging social divides by creating more inclusive conversations. Tune in to discover how understanding attribution can change the way we see the world—and ourselves.

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

[0:00] Intro

[6:03] Speed round

[9:18] Factors contributing to success/failure

[13:53] Attribution and how it affects perceptions and behaviors

[19:21] Attribution error and its impact on behavior and success

[29:30] Success, privilege, and race in America

[35:00] Land grants, race, and attribution

[46:35] Empathy, storytelling, and judging less to improve relationships

[54:00] Music, identity, and belonging

[1:00:29] Grooving session: Attribution and luck in success

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

The Monopoly Experiment

The Random Factor by Mark Rank

America’s Surprising Views on Inequality

American Dream Score - Bob’s Quiz

America’s Dreaming - Bob McKinnon

Neil Diamond - I am…I said

Tracy Chapman - Fast Car

Luke Combs - Fast Car

The Stanford Prison Experiment has been the topic of movies, newspaper articles, textbooks and TV shows. Extensively published controversy has surrounded the social psychology experiment ever since it was conducted in 1971. Now on the 50th Anniversary, we invite you to listen to a very unique interview with the man who orchestrated it all; Dr Philip Zimbardo PhD. 

• Was the Stanford Prison Experiment designed to measure the corruption of power?
• Were participants influenced by the context of the experiment itself and pressured into performing a role?
• How exactly did the environment influence the behavior of the participants, including Dr Philip Zimbardo himself? As he quotes; “a bad barrel can take a good apple, and make it bad”.

At Stanford University in 1971, influenced by the work of his friend Stanley Milgram, Philip Zimbardo assembled a mock prison in the basement of the university and used male student volunteers to become the guards and prisoners. What unfolded in the coming days surprised even Philip Zimbardo.

What is less known about Philip Zimbardo is that he has since done extensive research on shyness, cult behavior, time perception, and more recently on heroism. According to him, we are all “heroes in waiting”, and he has founded the Heroic Imagination Project to help cultivate the heroes among us. 

Our discussion with Dr Z (as he asked us to call him!) weaves through an enlightening reflection on his upbringing, the influence of his family and peers, and his transition into academia. Kurt and Tim intercept the conversation throughout to provide explanation and insights. And we end with how Dr Z’s work can influence our behavior now. What can we really learn from the Stanford Prison Experiment? And how can we all become a hero in waiting?

(2:59) Introducing Dr. Philip Zimbardo.

(4:30) Dr Z’s upbringing in the Bronx.

(6:40) The significance of Dr Z’s classmates at James Monroe High School.

(11:06) How racism influenced Dr Z’s application to Yale.

(16:18) How Dr Z started the Stanford Prison Experiment.

(19:05) What Dr Z was trying to understand from the experiment.

(20:04) What went wrong.

(21:59) How abusive guard David Eshelman explained his behavior.

(23:10) Controversy around the experiment and why it ended early.

(27:07) Chip Frederick’s abusive behavior at Abu Ghraib prison during the Iraqi War.

(30:15) If you can cultivate evil behavior, can you also cultivate heroic behavior?

(33:36) The 4 steps to becoming a "Hero in Training".

(35:14) Dr Z’s offer to help with police brutality in the US.

(37:04) Takeaways: how to be aware and intentional with our behavior.

We look forward to welcoming you back next week for more about why context matters with esteemed Yale social psychologist, Dr John Bargh PhD. 

Please consider donating to our podcast work through Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves).

We also love hearing from our listeners, please leave us a podcast review or reach out to us on Twitter:

Kurt Nelson @motivationguru

Tim Houlihan @THoulihan

Mary Kaliff @BeSciMary

© 2021 Behavioral Grooves

Stanley Milgram: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Milgram 

Solomon Asch - Conformity Experiment: https://www.simplypsychology.org/asch-conformity.html 

Charlie Parker “All The Things You Are”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTORd2Y_X6U 

Episode 76: Nurit Nobel: De-Biasing the Recruiting Process: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/nurit-nobel-de-biasing-the-recruiting-process/

Chip Frederick: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/oct/22/usa.iraq 

Heroic Imagination Project: https://www.heroicimagination.org/ 

If you want to incentivize an outcome, don’t just focus on the final reward, hone in on the behavior that will drive the result. Whether we’re motivating our employees, our kids or ourselves, we can all benefit from learning how to effectively drive behavior.

“ Incentives drive behavior. So if you don't get the behaviors right, that's where incentives go off the rail.” ~ James Castello, Episode 344

Our guest on this episode is James Castello, Vice President of Field Operations and Incentive Compensation Practices at TGaS Advisors. TGaS Advisors is one of the leading consultancies focused on the pharmaceutical industry.  They provide insights and real world knowledge to hundreds of the leading life science companies around the world. 

While this episode is focused on how incentives can be created effectively to reach sales targets, the takeaways from the discussion with Jim can be applied to many aspects of our lives. Be sure to join Kurt and Tim in the Grooving Session in the last portion of the episode, as they summarize the most applicable aspects of the interview.

(6:25) Welcome and speed round question.

(8:32) Collaboration is just a means to an end.

(10:49) Incentives drive behavior.

(13:44) The influence of the pandemic on incentives.

(17:25) How do you align incentives with behaviors?

(20:05) The importance of language in incentives.

(25:14) What exactly is goal setting?

(33:04) Breaking goals into manageable chunks to remove objections.

(38:54) Do contests work well for driving sales?

(47:00) What music would Jim take to a desert island?

(51:02) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim discussing incentives.

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

Brain/Shift Journal Shopify: https://www.100behaviors.com/products/the-brain-shift-journal-volume-1

Brain/Shift Journal Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Brain-Shift-Journal-1/dp/B0BN2JZBJ2/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=brain+shift&qid=1670950820&sr=8-1

James Castello: https://trinitylifesciences.com/our-experts/james-castello/ 

T-GaS Advisors: https://www.linkedin.com/company/tgas-advisors/ 

100th Episode of Behavioral Grooves: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/the-100th-episode-celebration-in-philadelphia/ 

Lake Wobegon Effect: https://psychology.fandom.com/wiki/Lake_Wobegon_effect 

Bob Dylan “Like a Rollin’ Stone”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwOfCgkyEj0 

AC/DC “It's a Long Way to the Top (If You Wanna Rock 'N' Roll)“: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj_rvLVpqg8&ab_channel=AC%2FDC-Topic 

Metallica “Enter Sandman”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD-E-LDc384 

Ahead of the 2024 US Election, Kurt and Tim sit down with bestselling author and serial experimenter AJ Jacobs to discuss his latest project, The Year of Living Constitutionally. AJ spent a year living life according to the principles of the U.S. Constitution, adopting 18th-century customs along the way. From wearing tricorn hats and writing with quill pens to exploring the deeper philosophical underpinnings of democracy, AJ brings history to life while reflecting on the balance between rights and responsibilities, a concept that feels more urgent than ever today.

AJ also shares his mission to revive one of America’s sweetest (and largely forgotten) traditions—Election Cakes! In the 1700s, Election Day was a festival of civic pride, complete with parades, music, and community-baked cakes shared at the polls. In true AJ fashion, he’s on a quest to bring this tradition back, reminding us that democracy can be both a serious and joyful act. 

Throughout the episode, AJ, Kurt, and Tim dive into the importance of ‘epistemic humility’ - aka, the acknowledgment that we don’t have all the answers and must remain open to learning. From Benjamin Franklin’s introspection to modern-day challenges of misinformation, AJ challenges listeners to approach life and democracy with curiosity, gratitude, and a willingness to improve both ourselves and our society. So grab a slice of election cake (or pie!) and join us for this thought-provoking, timely conversation on what it means to live constitutionally.

Need help finding a voting location near you? Check here!

©2024 Behavioral Grooves

[0:00] Election day traditions

[4:25] Speed round with AJ Jacobs

[9:44] Living Colonially: What I learned

[18:56] Epistemic humility and political perspectives

[23:52] Constitutional originalism

[36:29] How do we frame the constitution?

[40:40] Election cakes and celebrating democracy

[48:52] Embracing experimentation in everyday life

[52:56] Grooving session: open-mindedness, civic duty, and cake recipes

©2024 Behavioral Grooves

Join our Facebook Group!

AJ’s Substack

The Year of Living Constitutionally

More about AJ

The History of Election Cakes

The US Constitution

Royal American Medley - Songs of the Revolutionary War

Yankee Doodle

Processes decrease our cognitive load and increase our productivity. On Behavioral Grooves we have talked with out guests a lot about habits and routines, but not so much about the processes behind them. In this bitesize episode we discuss the psychological benefits of using processes and how you can leverage them in your life.

To illustrate the use of processes to achieve different outcomes, we are joined by both a practitioner and a researcher on this episode. Joseph R. Keebler is a Researcher and a Professor of Human Factors and Behavioral Neurobiology at Embry Riddle Aeronautical University in Florida. He has done some really amazing work on the use of processes and checklists for improving performance.

Our practitioner guest is Peter M. Krask, who is an artist and coach based in New York City. Peter helps people maximize their creative and non creative output. By tapping into processes, he will share how processes from one aspect of our lives can be used to help us work through new and unfamiliar tasks in other parts of our lives.

(3:29) How processes reduce our cognitive load.

(7:38) You can use the same process but get a different outcome. 

(14:50) Being intentional creates better processes.

(16:50) Flexible goals are motivational.

(20:14) Summary of what we’ve learnt.

© 2021 Behavioral Grooves

Joseph R. Keebler, PhD: https://faculty.erau.edu/Joseph.Keebler 

Peter M. Krask: https://www.petermkrask.com/ 

PMK Creativity Guide: https://www.pmkcreativityguide.com/ 

Episode 128, Wendy Wood, PhD: Habits, Productivity and Being Gentle with Yourself: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/covid-19-crisis-wendy-wood-phd-on-habits-productivity-and-being-gentle-with-yourself/ 

Episode 232, Katy Milkman: How to Make Healthy Habits that Actually Last: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/katy-milkman-habits-that-last/ 

Episode 171, Roy Baumeister: Self Control, Belonging, and Why Your Most Dedicated Employees Are the Ones To Watch Out For: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/self-control-belonging-and-why-your-most-dedicated-employees-are-the-ones-to-watch-out-for-with-roy-baumeister/ 

Episode 276, Ayelet Fishbach, PhD: How To Stay Motivated So You Exceed Your Goals: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/motivation-to-exceed-your-goals/

It’s the time of year for setting New Year’s resolutions. But how can you set goals that you will actually achieve? Will you look back at the end of 2022 and feel a sense of accomplishment? The first step to reaching your goals is actually knowing how to set yourself up to succeed. 

In this fun Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim, they break down the steps needed to create motivating goals in 2022. Using insights from past guests, plus their own expertise in behavioral science, Kurt and Tim break down the skills behind successful goal setting. In addition, they dispel some ill-advised myths. Think willpower is enough to help you lose weight? Sorry, but creating healthy habits takes more than just good intentions. 

If you want to better your health, your relationships or your organization in 2022, listening to this fun and informative episode will start you off on the path to success. 

Gary Latham PhD, Episode 147: Goal Setting, Prompts, Priming, and Skepticism: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/gary-latham-goal-setting-prompts/

Katy Milkman PhD, Episode 232: How to Make Healthy Habits that Actually Last: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/katy-milkman-habits-that-last/

Roy Baumeister PhD, Episode 171: Self Control, Belonging, and Why Your Most Dedicated Employees Are the Ones To Watch Out For: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/self-control-belonging-and-why-your-most-dedicated-employees-are-the-ones-to-watch-out-for-with-roy-baumeister/

Leave a review for Behavioral Grooves Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/behavioral-grooves-podcast/id1303870112 

© 2021 Behavioral Grooves

Can love alone sustain a relationship? Probably not. In this pseudo-Valentine’s Day episode, therapist Rachel Glik explores the pillars of a soulful marriage: personal growth, prioritization, and shared purpose. We unpack the “duck effect” of social media’s relationship illusions, the value of embracing friction for deeper connection, and how self-responsibility and communication can turn struggling relationships into thriving ones. Plus, Rachel shares insights from Kabbalah and psychotherapy—because love is in the air, and so is science!

©2025 Behavioral Grooves

[0:00] Relationships, Social Media, and the Duck Effect

[6:00] Speed Round with Rachel Gilk

[8:46] Exploring the Four Pillars of a Soulful Marriage

[15:40] Embracing Friction: Why Conflict is a Growth Opportunity

[22:00] The Role of Kabbalah in Relationships

[35:00] Practical Tips for Enhancing Relationships

[40:50] The Love Seat Method 

[50:13] Music Preferences

[1:00:00] Grooving Session: Love, Communication, and Personal Growth

©2025 Behavioral Grooves

Rachel Glik

A Soulful Marriage: Healing Your Relationship with Responsibility, Growth, Priority, and Purpose

Duck Syndrome

Joni Mitchell - Big Yellow Taxi 

Maggie Rogers - Fallingwater 

Angus & Julia Stone - Big Jet Plane

In this episode, we are delighted to welcome Shankar Vedantam, host of the wildly popular podcast, Hidden Brain and esteemed author of the new book Useful Delusions (https://amzn.to/2PUkzlv). 

Before reading Shankar’s book and interviewing him for this podcast we were, as Shankar describes himself, card-carrying rationalists. We were firmly in the camp of believing rational, scientific findings and believing that lies and deception are harmful to ourselves and to our communities. However, Shankar walks us through a compelling argument, that paradoxically, self-deception actually plays a pivotal role in our happiness and well-being.

In our discussion with Shankar we cover:

• (6:38) Speed round questions.
• (11:04) The difference between self delusions being useful and being harmful.
• (16:23) How nations are a delusional construct.
• (23:00) Awareness of self-delusions and how daily gratitudes can shift our perspective of the world. 
• (25:56) Shankar’s personal story of delusional thinking. 
• (29:58) The role emotions play in our mood and delusions.
• (35:23) How avoidance of delusional thinking is a sign of privilege.
• (37:30) Why our perceptions play an important role in understanding delusions.
• (44:36) Shankar’s unique approach to conspiracy theories.
• (52:28) What music Shankar has been listening to during COVID.
• (52:15) Grooving Session and Bonus Track with Kurt and Tim.

We really hope you find Shankar’s unique insight on how delusions are useful as compelling as we did. If you’re a regular Behavioral Grooves listener, please consider supporting us through Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves). Thank you! 

© 2021 Behavioral Grooves

• Useful Delusions: The Power and Paradox of the Self-Deceiving Brain https://amzn.to/2PUkzlv 

• The Hidden Brain: How Our Unconscious Minds Elect Presidents, Control Markets, Wage Wars and Save Our Lives https://amzn.to/3e1qgWY

Noise: A Flaw in Human Judgment by Kahneman, Sibony and Sunstein, 2021 https://amzn.to/3heyr5r 

Richard Dawkins https://richarddawkins.net/ 

Mahabharata https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata 

Lake Wobegon Effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Wobegon 

The Myth of the “Relationship Spark” with Logan Ury (featuring a guest appearance by Christina Gravert, PhD): https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/the-myth-of-the-relationship-spark-with-logan-ury-featuring-a-guest-appearance-by-christina-gravert-phd/

Robert Cialdini, PhD: Littering, Egoism and Aretha Franklin: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/robert-cialdini-phd-littering-egoism-and-aretha-franklin/ 

Self Control, Belonging, and Why Your Most Dedicated Employees Are the Ones To Watch Out For with Roy Baumeister: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/self-control-belonging-and-why-your-most-dedicated-employees-are-the-ones-to-watch-out-for-with-roy-baumeister/

George Loewenstein: On a Functional Theory of Boredom: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/george-loewenstein-on-a-functional-theory-of-boredom/

Gary Latham, PhD: Goal Setting, Prompts, Priming, and Skepticism: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/gary-latham-phd-goal-setting-prompts-priming-and-skepticism/

John Bargh: Dante, Coffee and the Unconscious Mind: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/john-bargh-dante-coffee-and-the-unconscious-mind/

Linda Thunstrom: Are Thoughts and Prayers Empty Gestures to Suffering Disaster Victims? https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/linda-thunstrom-are-thoughts-and-prayers-empty-gestures-to-suffering-disaster-victims/ 

Are generational labels dead weight?

This week—after many technical difficulties and a nearly-forgotten anniversary—Kurt talks with organizational culture expert Jessica Kriegel about generational divides and why they are ultimately pointless and unproductive for both personal and professional growth. Jessica introduces her “culture equation” framework, revealing three critical elements that drive revenue growth and how missing these elements can lead to stagnation.

A key focus of the conversation is the damaging impact of generational stereotypes in the workplace and how ageism, in any form, prevents us from recognizing people’s unique talents. Through compelling examples, Jessica explains how these stereotypes dangerously influence workplace practices—and what we can do to avoid them.

Tim is back from anniversary-dinner bliss for this week’s grooving session, where he and Kurt reflect on the key themes from Kurt’s conversation with Jessica. The duo offers insights on the power of thoughtful communication and how being intentional with our words can shape organizational culture.

Whether you’re a Boomer, Gen Z’er, or anything in between (sorry Gen X and Milennials), this episode has all you need to challenge stereotypes and start bridging those generational gaps.

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

[0:00] Generational stereotypes and corporate culture

[6:20] Speed round with Jessica Kriegel

[9:10] Generational labels: a perspective

[23:25] The “Culture Equation” and it’s impact on success

[28:41] The importance of leadership for shaping culture

[36:52] How to align purpose, strategy, and culture

[42:25] Grooving Session: Bridging generational divides with leadership

© 2024 Behavioral Grooves

Unfairly Labeled: How Your Workplace Can Benefit From Ditching Generational Stereotypes

How to get people to give a sh*t | Jessica Kriegel | TEDxStGeorgeStudio

Is Generational Prejudice Seeping into Your Workplace?

Subscribe to our Newsletter!

Atmosphere - “Sunshine"

The Beatles - "Eight Days a Week"

Samuel Salzer is a leading behavioral strategist and habit expert, having worked with organizations across Europe, Australia, and North America. Among other things, he’s one of the first Chief Behavioral Officer's (CBO) in tech, applying insights from behavioral science and behavioral economics to build user-centered and habit-forming products and services. 

At the forefront of the emerging field of Behavioral Design, Samuel is a frequent keynote speaker, curates the popular newsletter Habit Weekly, and has co-authored “Nudging in Practice - Helping organizations make it easy to do the right thing.”  The book offers a comprehensive guide to organizations interested in understanding and systematically utilizing behavioral insights.

In our conversation with Samuel, we discussed streaks, those things that happen when we do something consistently over a long-period of time. They provide ongoing motivation to do the behavior which can help it become automatic.  However, they can also feel daunting. We also talked about how habits are contextual. And lastly, we discussed how powerful and underappreciated cognitive dissonance is.

In our Grooving Session, Kurt and Tim discussed streaking and why having dinner with a favorite musician (songwriter) might be better than a sports celebrity. Hope you enjoy our conversation!

Finally, we end with a cut from a yet-unreleased record by Kurt and Tim: “Cognitive Dissonance.” Some of the lyrics: “I’m making up a story / To relieve the contradiction / Between what I want to be and what I do.” 

© 2020 Behavioral Grooves

Samuel Salzer: https://samuelsalzer.com/

Habit Weekly: https://habitweekly.com/

Behavioral Science & Design Thinking Online Course: besci.org/grooves 

Wendy Wood, “Good Habits, Bad Habits”: https://goodhabitsbadhabits.com/

Charles Duhigg: “The Power of Habit”: https://charlesduhigg.com/the-power-of-habit/

Phillippa Lally: https://centrespringmd.com/docs/How%20Habits%20are%20Formed.pdf

Maxwell Maltz – 21 Days to Habit: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonselk/2013/04/15/habit-formation-the-21-day-myth/#1f194c7bdebc

James Clear: https://jamesclear.com/

“Mistakes Were Made (but not by me)”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistakes_Were_Made_(but_Not_by_Me)

Streaking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhibitionism#Streaking

Deci & Ryan: https://www.apa.org/members/content/intrinsic-motivation

Teresa Amabile, PhD: https://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/profile.aspx?facId=6409

Hans Zimmer “Inception”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdYYN-4ttDg

Ray Stevens “The Streak”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtzoUu7w-YM

David Byrne: https://livemusicblog.com/news/david-byrne-saturday-night-live-video/

Talking Heads: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBIlxmug8PU

What is resilience, and how can we cultivate it in our lives? In this episode, delve into the fascinating world of resilience with an exclusive interview featuring Dr. Jonathan DePierro, author of the insightful book "Resilience." Join Kurt and Tim as Dr. DePierro defines resilience as more than just bouncing back; it's the ability to adapt, recover, and grow stronger in the face of life's challenges.

Discover the practical applications of resilience skills in navigating everyday stressors and gain a deeper understanding of the brain science behind building resilience through the power of social support. Dr. DePierro shares his experiences working with 9/11 responders and healthcare professionals during the challenges of the COVID-19 pandemic, offering valuable insights into how resilience can be a guiding force in times of crisis.

This episode isn't just about individual resilience – it extends to the organizational level, providing valuable takeaways for creating resilient communities. Learn how to foster a culture of adaptability and growth that can withstand the tests of time.

Tune in to gain a profound understanding of resilience and explore practical strategies for developing it in your own life. Dr. Jonathan DePierro's expertise and real-world experiences make this episode a must-listen for anyone seeking to navigate life's uncertainties with strength and resilience.

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

(4:50) Introduction and Speed Round

(8:47) Resilience and Growth in the Face of Challenges

(12:55) Coping with Trauma

(17:23) Resilience, Optimism, and Social Support

(28:58) Building Resilience in Individuals and Organizations

(38:59) The Power of Music to Evoke Memories and Emotions

(45:01) Reframing Experiences and Building Resilience

(48:37) Grooving Session: Resilience and Problem-solving in Challenging times

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

Resilience: The Science of Mastering Life's Greatest Challenges

Mount Sinai's Center for Stress, Resilience and Personal Growth

Gregorian Master of Chant Fix You

Hercules Film A Star is Born

Elton John Bennie and the Jets

Earth, Wind, Fire September

Paul Simon You Can Call Me Al

Jez Groom and April Vellacott, our guests in this episode, are co-authors of “Ripple - The Big Effects of Small Behavior Changes in Business.” It’s a practical, application-focused romp that uses a behavioral science lens to solve all sorts of real-world problems.

Jez Groom is the founder of Cowry Consulting and has established himself as one of the world's leading practitioners in the field. Jez has played instrumental roles in projects like Babies in the Borough – which we featured in Episode 167 – that used murals of babies faces to fight crime, to changing handwashing behavior in a slaughterhouse in Santiago, to using bright pink walls to reduce unsafe behavior on a high-rise construction site in London. He is also an Honorary Research Fellow at the Department of Psychology at City University, London.

April Vellacott is the Behavioral Consulting Lead at Cowry. Aside from being a dedicated and experienced practitioner, she holds degrees in Psychology and Behavior Change. Owning the heavy lifting for the book, April stole the show with some of the best lines (see “you can’t make a bucket without bucketloads of money”). We urge you to check out their book as it’s more than just informative, it’s also a pleasure to read.

In our conversation with Jez and April, we discussed the salient points from the book, the case study format they used, the very international feel from those case studies, and some of the techniques they’ve used to get business professionals to adopt behavioral science.

We also covered a key pillar of their personal and professional missions: to demystify and democratize behavioral science. It’s a terrific conversation and we hope you’ll enjoy it as much as we did.

© 2020 Behavioral Grooves

Jez Groom: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jezgroom/

April Vellacott: https://www.linkedin.com/in/april-vellacott-68b08257/

Cowry Consulting: https://www.cowryconsulting.com/

“Ripple”: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/49190518-ripple 

Rory Sutherland: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rorysutherland/

Daniel Levitin “This is Your Brain on Music”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Levitin

Adam Hansen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adhansen/

Diversifi: https://www.diversifiglobal.com/

Episode 167 – Babies in the Borough: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-babies-faces-on-shop-doors-can-reduce-crime-with-tara-austin/

John Legend “Wild”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=279RNoP5UyU

House Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBJk0Tq3JDU

Stormzy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-EW4-B11hw

Drill: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drill_music

Flava Flav: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavor_Flav

Public Enemy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Enemy

Sade: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcPc18SG6uA

This podcast will give you the tools and techniques to foster a learning culture in your organization. Whether you work at a junior level or are an executive, Sarah’s guidelines can equip you to utilize leadership, AI, context and habit formation to incorporate learning into your routine.

Learning is like exercise. Once you develop a healthy habit, you need to keep going! But how do you foster a learning culture in your organization? In this interview, Sarah joins Kurt Nelson and Tim Houlihan to talk about her book "Learning Habits Drive a Learning Culture to Improve Employee and Business Performance". Sarah discusses how organizations can establish a learning culture by focusing on learning habits. 

Based around the famous habit cycle of cue, routine and reward, Sarah adds in the important 4th element of context. Leaning on the excellent work of Wendy Wood, Sarah emphasizes the importance of creating an environment in which your desired habits are supported as a much more effective tool than relying on willpower alone.

Learning in an organization is driven by leadership. By modeling learning behaviors and setting the expectations for a learning culture, leaders can elevate the productivity of their team. She discusses how team meetings, one-on-one conversations and social media can all be leveraged to encourage learning habits. But one thing particularly stands out about Sarah’s work is that she incorporates concepts from behavioral science like social proof, cues and rewards that can help make learning automatic and habitual. 

If you want to keep learning from people like Sarah Nicholl on Behavioral Grooves Podcast, please support our work by contributing on Patreon. Thank you to all our listeners who already do.

(2:48) Welcome and speed round questions.

(6:16) Learning habits that contribute most to healthy organizations.

(9:03) Using learning to change behavior.

(11:19) How to incorporate learning into the team meeting.

(13:24) Context matters!

(15:16) How do you create a learning culture?

(19:01) What is the LEARN model?

(22:42) The impact of generative AI on learning.

(27:42) The value of social proof for learning.

(31:07) How behavioral science plays a part in learning.

(33:24) What Sarah learnt herself from writing the book.

(34:21) What music would Sarah take to a desert island?

(36:16) Grooving Session on learning.

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

Sarah Nicholl’s book, "Learning Habits: Drive a Learning Culture to Improve Employee and Business Performance": https://amzn.to/3E8oyQX

Meryl Streep: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meryl_Streep

The Laundromat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Laundromat_(2019_film)

BJ Fogg, "Tiny Habits: The Small Changes That Change Everything": https://amzn.to/3D4hiFi 

Wendy Wood, "Good Habits, Bad Habits: The Science of Making Positive Changes That Stick": https://amzn.to/3NHv31p  

Episode 31, Leaving the Matrix: Annie Duke and Insights into how you can improve your thinking!: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/leaving-the-matrix-annie-duke-and-insights-into-how-you-can-improve-your-thinking/ 

MINDSPACE Framework: https://thedecisionlab.com/reference-guide/neuroscience/mindspace-framework#:~:text=MINDSPACE%3A%20A%20mnemonic%20for%20the,affect%2C%20commitments%2C%20and%20ego. 

Episode 41, From MINDSPACE to EAST with Michael Hallsworth: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/michael-hallsworth-from-mindspace-to-east/

Daniel Kahneman “Thinking Fast and Slow”: https://amzn.to/3NDph0V 

James Clear, "Atomic Habits: An Easy & Proven Way to Build Good Habits & Break Bad Ones": https://amzn.to/3O2HAhd 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves 

Shania Twain “That Don’t Impress Me Much”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqFLXayD6e8 

James Taylor “You’ve Got A Friend”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jgh6h6eYLk 

Is Your Job a Calling or a Burden?

This week, we jump into the deep and sometimes challenging question: what role does work play in a meaningful life? Christopher Michaelson, one of the co-authors of Is Your Work Worth It?  joins us to explore the philosophical and practical aspects of how we view work—as a job, a career, or a calling—and the impacts each perspective can have on our sense of purpose and fulfillment. While a calling can give us profound motivation, Christopher warns that it can also lead to burnout and even exploitation.

One of the most poignant moments in our conversation reflects on research from 9/11, which reveals that for two-thirds of the victims, work was not a defining element in their life stories. This insight reminds us of the importance of balancing work with other meaningful aspects of life. Christopher also shares insights from his personal family history and invites us to redefine success beyond professional or financial achievements.

Together, we consider how our “90-year-old self” might view the decisions we make about work and purpose today, and how these choices impact our journey toward a balanced life. Join us as we dig into the importance of examining our relationship to work to ensure it truly aligns with our broader life goals and values.

©2024 Behavioral Grooves

[0:00] Intro

[4:11] Speed round

[12:32] Exploring the nature of work

[22:40] Is having “a calling” a bad thing?

[36:24] Redefining success

[48:30] Desert island music

[53:48] Grooving Session: Work-life balance and living in the moment

©2024 Behavioral Grooves

Is Your Work Worth It?: How to Think About Meaningful Work

Christopher Michaelson

9/11 Portraits of Grief Project

Phillip Glass “Prophecies” 

Allison Russell “Nightflyer” 

Boy Genius “Not Strong Enough